Author Topic: FR & RR Suspension Alignment  (Read 1336 times)

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Offline Clifton

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #15 on: Saturday,May 03, 2025, 01:45:05 AM »
Those Ebay toe plates are nice for the money.

As BDA mentioned crab walking, this is thrust. You need to string it to get the rears equal. Plates will only get you total toe. 

The problem with using inches for a toe measurement is the distance between the two changes the degrees. 1/8" total at 18" (.40*) apart  is not the same as 1/8" measured at 24"  (.30*) apart.  If using degrees, it is what is.

Degrees is best and use a calculator to get the inches at the distance you are using.
https://robrobinette.com/DIYAlignmentCalculator.htm

You do not want 3/8" total toe in. It would be .90 degrees if measured at 24". Half that at 3/16" at 24" distance is 45 degrees and still quite a bit.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #16 on: Saturday,May 03, 2025, 07:40:22 AM »
Toe specs are based on old fashioned, flexible, tall side walled tires.  If that is what you have, by all means use the original specs.  If you are running stiff, fat tires, you'll need less toe in.

Offline Clifton

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #17 on: Sunday,May 04, 2025, 05:43:13 AM »
Toe specs are based on old fashioned, flexible, tall side walled tires.  If that is what you have, by all means use the original specs.  If you are running stiff, fat tires, you'll need less toe in.

Toe is toe.  ;)

Offline My S1

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #18 on: Sunday,May 04, 2025, 08:54:46 AM »
Clifton, I catch your drift however the shop manual talks in terms of inches not degrees.  Do you know what degrees FR & RR that I would need for a thoroughly stock '67 S1?

 

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #19 on: Sunday,May 04, 2025, 09:32:37 AM »
this page/pdf gives a conversion for metric to degrees based on wheel size and is what I've used in the past;

http://www.trackace.co.uk/manual/conversion%20chart.pdf

Offline BDA

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #20 on: Sunday,May 04, 2025, 09:33:18 AM »
You can convert inches to degrees with this website (https://robrobinette.com/ConvertToeInchesToDegrees.htm).

Offline My S1

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #21 on: Sunday,May 04, 2025, 05:27:42 PM »
Built a new, improved string set up for the car up on jack stands.  Initial numbers before I tear it all apart and go for broke; on the ground with new coil overs and fully laden, shows that the RT RR toe in is -4mm and the LF RR is -1mm.  I'm sure the -3 degrees of camber will have a sizable effect on the real numbers. I can't see that any shimming has been done to date so I'll leave it as is for the maiden voyage.  Turns out the front tie rod arms are both bent all to hell and there are two different ball joints, but I dialed it in to a total of -3mm for now.  Will probably rebuild the rack rather than risk buying a new one, made who knows where, unless you guys advise otherwise.

Thank you for all the advice.

Offline BDA

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #22 on: Sunday,May 04, 2025, 06:29:43 PM »
I’m not sure measuring your alignment on stands will tell you much except that it appears that one of your rear wheels is toe’d in more than the other. At least you got practice in measuring front and rear toe.

Do you have a reason to suspect your rack needs a rebuild? They are pretty reliable and durable. If you do need a new rack, the directions in the workshop manual are pretty good. You have to do a little “translation” from an S2. Another other option is to find a good used Spitfire rack. Be careful that you don’t get an updated rack because they won’t work. Then you basically take the parts of your Europa rack that are different or not found on the Spitfire rack and put them on the Spitfire rack. The third option is to buy a reconditioned rack. SJ Sportscars and Lotus Supplies sell them. You could also try rd enterprises or Dave Bean.

Offline Fotog

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #23 on: Monday,May 05, 2025, 11:01:21 AM »
The problem with using inches for a toe measurement is the distance between the two changes the degrees. 1/8" total at 18" (.40*) apart  is not the same as 1/8" measured at 24"  (.30*) apart.  If using degrees, it is what is.

Degrees is best and use a calculator to get the inches at the distance you are using.
https://robrobinette.com/DIYAlignmentCalculator.htm
I sure agree with that!  This is geometry.  Toe is an angle, not a length measurement!  Nutty that it was specified in inches back in the day.

Offline Fotog

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #24 on: Monday,May 05, 2025, 11:06:33 AM »
I also agree with BDA that you shouldn't do it while on jack stands.  Ideally it should be done while laden with passenger weight, but at very least, do it with the weight of the car on the suspension (I suggest).  We're talking about very small angles here and they could be way out of whack with the suspension hanging uncompressed.  Now that you have that nice setup you can do it both ways and compare.  It would be interesting to hear how different they are.

-Vince

Offline My S1

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #25 on: Monday,May 05, 2025, 12:29:20 PM »
So right you are.  The 1-1/16" toe-OUT scared the hell out of me.  Now that I'm near -zero toe-in I can drive it for awhile without fear of scrubbing the new tires.  Anxious to use use the Telhuzen setup that you recommended and really dial it in.  Many thanks to all.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #26 on: Thursday,May 08, 2025, 05:59:58 AM »
Toe was always specified in a linear measurement because gauges that measured angles were more expensive (and rare) back in the day.  Tape measures?  Not so much.

Absolutely 100% cannot check/set alignment while the car is on stands!


Good luck with road testing a car that has rear toe-out.  Bring extra underwear!

The most common cause of rear toe out is having the rear arm rubber mounts fitted outside of the chassis.  There was a service bulletin issued.  They should be mounted to the inside and then shimmed to spec.

Everyone knows better and disbelieves the Europa’s rear spec.  Then they drive it.  After a few heart in the mouth lane changes (or worse) suddenly the factory spec seems more reasonable.

Offline fort

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #27 on: Thursday,May 08, 2025, 06:15:19 AM »
Just to back up JB, decades ago when racing my Europa after a huge spin at Phillip Island and a series of slow times at Winton I checked the rear and found a fair amount of toe out. After sorting it I was suddenly 4 secs quicker at Winton. The improvement was dramatic.

Offline BDA

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #28 on: Thursday,May 08, 2025, 07:48:42 AM »
Toe out in the rear can be diabolical. The reason is that it is unstable because toe out can be a turning mode (the inside tire in a turn is at a tighter angle than the outside wheel). If the pavement or wind or weight transfer causes one tire to temporarily grip a bit better than the other, it will try to turn in that direction. Those condition can change which will give you a pretty wild ride. The front toe is a bit less "influential" in that toe out is some times used to enhance turn in at a corner by utilizing the mechanism described above. Toe in will not be in a turning mode so it is more stable.

I have heard of people autocrossing with toe out on the rear for turning in reasons - mainly on front wheel drive cars but I don't know if it's limited to them.

What I find curious is that the rear toe spec for the S1/S2 is "3/16 in. (4.76 mm.) to Zero" while the the spec for the TC/TCS is "6.35 mm. (¼ in.) to 3.18 mm.(1/8 in.)." I'm at a loss to understand why it changed. Could the fatter tires on the TC/TCS be the reason for more toe in?

Offline GavinT

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Re: FR & RR Suspension Alignment
« Reply #29 on: Thursday,May 08, 2025, 07:58:51 AM »
'Back in the day' . . . in the late 70's while rebuilding my S2, I discovered one trailing arm had its forward mounting boss cut down, presumably so as to get it closer to the chassis.

Long story short, after much measuring, geometry and gymnastics, I wasn't able to attain any semblance of correct rear alignment / toe-in. Upon checking the trailing arm, it turned out to have been manufactured incorrectly. That is to say, the angle formed by the bolted tabs that locate the upright was wrong.

With some trepidation, I resolved to cut 'n' shut the outer tab so as to increase the toe angle. If that went wrong, the worst that could happen would be finding another trailing arm in pre-internet days in the antipodes.
It turned out that the 1/8" thickness of the cutting disk was about right! . . or quite a fair chunk, depending on how you look at it. I welded it up and was then able to establish the correct toe setting.

My take-aways are:
1. This must have come from the factory like that - the arm was otherwise undamaged.
2. The PO must never have attained even remotely correct rear toe-in.
3. I didn't drive the car much prior to the rebuild and had put down the squirrely rear end to 'they all do that, sir' or the discovery that someone had used a section of galvanised water pipe as a rear axle bearing spacer . . and we all know where that leads.
4. Lotus saw fit to provide a drawing of the trailing arm in the workshop manual, so kudos to Colin for that.

On a more related note to the thread subject, I've toyed with the idea of inserting two M8 Rivnuts into the centreline of the chassis underneath.
Using removable stand-offs, this should permit attaching ally or steel hollow sections across the car as a basis to establish and maintain repeatable suspension geometry. I reckon it'd be quicker to bolt that on instead of doing the usual classical ballet with jack stands and string.

« Last Edit: Thursday,May 08, 2025, 08:02:45 AM by GavinT »