Brakes - Pagid pads or four-pot set-up?

[HoraceM22]

Returning to the road after getting my rebuilt T/C engine up and running - more of which later - I was again not impressed with the initial bite and feel of my brakes. They have EBC Greenstuff pads at the moment which were an improvement on the standard ones, however I had Pagid pads, grooved discs and an AP Racing master cylinder (standard stuff on a Westy) on my supercharged Westfield and they felt great, lots of initial bite, great stopping power and lasted forever. Outrageously expensive, but you can't have everything.
Has anyone tried these? or if not, what methods have proven to be best and most cost effective. Four-pot calipers, better discs, different master cylinder, etc?
Also what tyres are you guys using? I have Pirelli Cinturato CN36's which are OK but may be a bit old. I had R888's on the Westy but they are no longer available over here and R888R's are lethal in the wet. I fancy maybe Michelin Pilot Sports of some flavour but wondered what you lot thought.
ATB
H.

[gideon]

If you don't mind spending a bit, then how about this

https://britishclassiccarparts.com/collections/brakes/products/lotus-europa-twin-cam-front-caliper-kit

Made in Cornwall, so you know it must be good

[EuropaTC]

Select can, remove lid, shake out worms......   

More than anything else with these cars I think everyone has a view on brakes, ranging from "OEM is fine, the best in the day" to "we must have made improvements in the last 50yrs ?".

Joji (Grumblebuns) did a brief survey of what was available https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=2437.0 although as always time moves on and there's other views around.

I've used Greenstuff on both the Elan & Europa at some point but moved away. These days I have the Mintex 1144 in the Elan, Europa and Elise but only this week I picked up a post on Lotuselan.net that said the 1144 was NLA, citing the use of copper as the prime reason. The replacement is MRM1802 for the type 14 caliper which is classed as a track pad, but there's more detail in the post;

https://forums.lotuselan.net/t/mintex-1144-brake-pads/56263

If you are running 13" wheels you're limited on what you can fit underneath. You'll get the 245mm disc & type 16 caliper from the GT6 underneath but need new caliper mounting brackets. I have this on the Elan after removing the servo and yep, it's ok. I know one member has fitted vented discs and spaced out the original calipers which seems a neat option and IIRC he was pleased with the results. For an easy upgrade I think the Banks kit has been a go-to option for standard wheels, he must know more about the brakes on the standard cars than anyone else around.

The big snag IMO is that the brake balance is well away from what's normal these days. I think RichardH's spreadsheet came up with something like 26% contribution from the rears, a massive F/R imbalance and although you don't notice it in the dry, that's why we have front wheel lock on wet roads.   

Hence a rear disc conversion would be my best bang/buck rather than fitting better front calipers/discs and leaving the rear of the car alone.

If you are prepared to move to larger wheels, things get more flexible in both brakes & tyre choices. I'm running 15" wheels with 50 series tyres for the same overall diameter, something to consider if tyre choice is more important than originality.

For brakes I did a thread back in 2016, briefly it's 260mm discs front & rear, standard 14F calipers at the front, Renault 34mm piston calipers at the rear. 1144 front pads, Ultimax rear, no servo. I've since updated it to having BMW Mini 36mm rear calipers which if I'm honest didn't make a massive difference but improves the theoretical F/R balance. It stops like a modern car.   

https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1699.msg15446#msg15446

Even so that's not perfect and personally I struggled to get a closer F/R balance even with the clean sheet approach, but (again IMO) it's better than the disc/drum setup.

Brian

[Clifton]

It's not the pads but the low pedal ratio and large MC bore that makes the stock brakes feel, well, not so great. Re drilling the pedal arm will give a better ratio and better feel. A good track pad does not make a good street pad. Track pads need heat to work. EBC pads are also not liked by many. I assume your Westy had a smaller MC, better ratio and maybe even larger piston area on the calipers.

R888 and R888R are not great tries. They heat cycle too quick and get hard on every drive. The compound is done before the tread depth is. Nankang makes the AR-1 in 13's but they are not great either if you encounter wet and are a little too hard for light cars. Probably worse in the wet than R888R's. Vredenstein makes a soft TW street tire that should work better than most of the harder tread wear numbered 13"s. Usually the lower the number, the softer until under 200. A 100TW R888R is not as soft/fast as a 200TW A052.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?tireMake=Vredestein&tireModel=Sprint%20Classic&isSEO=true

[cazman]

I use the Mintex F4r and they are fine on the street.

[Pfreen]

I also use Mintex pads after trying stock and Greenstuff.  The feel and fade are much improved.

[jbcollier]

Please be careful about trying to improve the "initial bite".  There is diddly-squat weight at the front of a Europa.  You can use powerful front brakes as long as the brakes are given time for the weight to transfer before full braking.  If you just "nail" the brakes, they will lock the fronts every time.  You need to use motorcycle techniques when braking.

[HoraceM22]

Hmmmm, thanks for those replies guys, so is this the better way forward?
https://www.lotus-supplies.com/parts/brakes/disk-kits/disc-kit-rear-incl-new-calipers-tc-4-5-speed-special/
A fair bit of cash but probably the better way to get the right result?
H.

[HoraceM22]

Also, has anyone used the Bank/Lotus supplies setup, and if so, does it include a handbrake mechanism (I assume)

[BDA]

I have vented front disc kit and rear disc kit that I got from Richard back in the '90s. From the pictures, I'd assume it is basically the same as what Lotus Supplies is selling now. The rear calipers do accept the hand brake cable ant it actually works pretty well. I have the stock M/C and no brake bias adjustment is necessary.

[EuropaTC]

Hmmmm, thanks for those replies guys, so is this the better way forward?
https://www.lotus-supplies.com/parts/brakes/disk-kits/disc-kit-rear-incl-new-calipers-tc-4-5-speed-special/
A fair bit of cash but probably the better way to get the right result?
H.

As my previous post, I would improve the F/R balance before trying to boost the performance of the front brakes so yes, that kit will certainly work.  Is it good value ? Yes, I'd say it is because it is a fit'n'forget solution where someone has worked out the details, designed and fabricated the caliper brackets and sourced new discs, pads and calipers that work together.

Can you do it cheaper ? Yes, of course but only if you're confident of your abilities to do the fabrication aspects and solve any problems you meet along the way. There are several threads on here about DIY rear disc conversions and they've also been covered in the old Yahoo list archives. 

Along with several others here I've built my own conversion. I started by following a well trodden path that someone else had found and then later tweaked the system with larger discs and different calipers.    BUT....  I like tinkering with such things, have plenty of time to experiment and don't mind if I end up throwing a day's work in the scrap bin because I've decided it's not good enough.

I've spent less cash but far more time in fabrication, sorting out the design, etc, so if you charged my time then it'd be much cheaper to buy a kit !

[SwiftDB4]

Totally agree with previous post. The Banks kit is reasonably priced considering what it includes and parking brake. I did my own 4 pot Wilwood rear caliper set up and even then had to do a lot of fabrication and custom rotors with no parking brake. You will notice a difference with rear disc brakes.

[Bainford]

I recently purchased the Banks rear disc kit, as well as their front brake upgrade kit (which includes a slightly larger disc and aluminum hubs). Both kits include new calipers. Looking for brake upgrade solutions, I was compelled by a knowledgeable forum member (whose name I can't recall at the moment) who had once worked at Lotus Supplies, and who had a ton of experience with this brake set-up, including extensive competition and street use. Sounded like a good route to go, I think.

My only concern is the calipers included with this upgrade are floating calipers. In the comprehensive discussions on this board regarding brake upgrades, I have not heard a single peep regarding fixed calipers vs floating calipers, so maybe its a non-issue. But I am seriously bummed at having to swap the stock fixed calipers for the floaters in the upgrade kit. The kit will improve my brake system greatly, but in the fullness of time, once I get other issues sorted with the car, I will be revisiting the brakes with an eye to finding some fixed calipers to fit.

In the meantime, though I have yet to fit it, I believe the Banks kit is an excellent way to go.

[Kendo]

Bainford, what is wrong with floating calipers? A tendency to jam, or some such?

[jbcollier]

Larger calipers lead to wheel mounting issues.  Floating calipers help a lot in this regard.