Author Topic: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?  (Read 1581 times)

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Offline Grumblebuns

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Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« on: Monday,March 31, 2025, 10:02:50 AM »
Well, this owner is doing it. I came across his Youtube videos  recently and decided to subscribe to his channel just to watch his progress. From what I can see, he appeaars to be pretty knowledgeable, at least in the electrical realm. His work looks to be neat and clean. I'm waiting for him to explain the motor drive system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YCEQIdMVqg&list=PLVI6drejxJEDFDJIzwMOTBdRd408aJqgF&index=52

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztgIDKVtj9c&list=PLVI6drejxJEDFDJIzwMOTBdRd408aJqgF&index=53

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYGZr6skhLI&list=PLVI6drejxJEDFDJIzwMOTBdRd408aJqgF&index=54&t=480s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UobTA75zC0o



« Last Edit: Thursday,May 08, 2025, 02:42:35 PM by Grumblebuns »

Offline 4129R

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #1 on: Monday,March 31, 2025, 10:42:39 AM »
Part of the charm of driving a Lotus, powered by an ICE, is the noise the engine makes, just as in F1 racing when they had proper V10 engines.

Take the noise of the ICE away, and you end up with a milk float.

Add to that the tendency of EVs to spontaneously combust, and I cannot see the attraction. 

Offline Clifton

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #2 on: Monday,March 31, 2025, 11:02:57 AM »
I love this. F the noise. When Tesla's are running and we are working the coarse, they are amazing. He will have a lot of fun with the torque. Lithium is 100% safe if you follow the rules, safer than these coffins we drive!

Offline Fotog

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #3 on: Monday,March 31, 2025, 02:19:30 PM »
I can't say I know what a "milk float" is, but I'll still add it to my list of humorous Britishisms.

It's very interesting to me to see Clifton chiming in that he's all for it. After all you (Clifton) have done to optimize an internal combustion car for autocrossing.  My instinct is that much of what I like about the Europa is the visceral experience that includes the noise as a big piece of it; but maybe some other aspects too that you wouldn't get with an EV.  Like maybe uneven torque through the range.  (It's great when you get that peak). But maybe I'm wrong!

Clifton:  Have you driven one?  Maybe the actual performance is better, but it's not as much fun.  Of course... I understand, when there's a score sheet at the end.   :)

Online BDA

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #4 on: Monday,March 31, 2025, 03:04:48 PM »
I'm not a huge fan of electric cars. They make sense in some situations and make no sense in others. I did drive a buddy's Tesla. I don't remember the model but I'm pretty sure it a dual motor version but I also seem to remember that my buddy said it wasn't the fastest version of the model.

Turning it on and sitting in it, the first thing that struck me was that it felt like I was sitting in a cell phone app. Almost everything was customizable on the touch screen. Driving it was very different from what I was expecting. Having instantaneous torque is pretty wild. I had to really watch myself or I'd end up going a lot faster than I intended. Then with regenerative braking turned on, you almost never had to actually use the brakes.

It was an interesting experience but, as I say, I have little interest in them. I can see where they would be good autocross cars in spite of how heavy they are. The guy in the video seems to know what he's doing but I have to say that I was bored by it. I had no idea what he was talking about! I'm sure that he'll end up with an interesting car and I'd like to see a video about the results of all his work but I'm like Fotog. I like the change in torque, the sounds, and shifting my gears myself.


Offline 314159td

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #5 on: Monday,March 31, 2025, 07:54:48 PM »
I think most of us in this crowd would dislike a swath of recent cars, not just the EVs. All manufacturers are rapidly accelerating towards perfecting the emotionless jellybean vehicle, save a few specific models (Miata, et al).

Europa EV has crossed my mind, particularly for the low drag and already horrendous storage space if we're being honest with ourselves. You can fit Model S/X modules very nicely up against the firewall (in place of the fuel tanks, like saddlebags) and in that over-footwell area. I had two cars worth of modules I bought from work and was distributing, spent a few hours mocking up the layout but I'd rather convert a restored car than triple the length of this project.

I am increasingly frustrated by the direction that automakers have taken to satisfy the public's "need" (which is incredibly stupid) for 300+ miles of range. Decrease the cross sectional area? Absolutely not, in fact, make it larger! Some, such as Tesla and Mercedes, have really dug into optimizing drag coefficient, but the fact remains they have double the frontal area of a Europa.

My requirements for a conversion typically start with a 1976 or later model year vehicle, just to not kill off something that could be put on the road without Smog testing, but the Europa is incredibly compelling in all other regards. The powertrain is somewhat interesting, but mostly from the standpoint of weight distribution so I also wouldn't heavily mourn ditching it.

In particular, Lucid's drive unit with the integrated differential seems like an excellent fit to drop in place of the Europa transaxle - I spent a while at one of their showrooms with a tape measure and was hilariously very welcomed. Very high voltage architecture is tricky to do in a conversion, as you need so many cells to hit that voltage, but there are already tricks to reconfigure Tesla modules to double the voltage.

Rambling at this point, but I think it actually makes sense. After I've put 70k or so on this powertrain I'll be seriously trading an EV conversion, and wouldn't be surprised if more show up. Definitely potential to make the most efficient (energy per distance) EV conversion.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #6 on: Monday,March 31, 2025, 10:15:50 PM »
I can't say I know what a "milk float" is, but I'll still add it to my list of humorous Britishisms.
Here ya go.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float

Definitely a quirky thing and I haven't seen one for years. When I was a kid towards the end of the 50s I remember them delivering milk to your doorstep before I went to school. They were very slow things but probably well suited to the job of constantly starting/moving 10yds/stopping/deliver milk to doorstep which would have been a PITA with an ICE, you'd end up leaving it running all the time. 

Absolutely nothing like the modern EVs !

Offline Blitzen

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday,April 01, 2025, 07:22:05 AM »
I’m surprised there’s not more discussion about the weight.   I don’t see how an EV conversion can be as light.  For me the beauty of the Europa is the handling and adding weight will upset that.

Offline 4129R

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday,April 01, 2025, 07:59:35 AM »
I can't say I know what a "milk float" is, but I'll still add it to my list of humorous Britishisms.

Before the 90s, in the UK we used to have milk delivered in glass pint bottles daily. Gold top = cream on top full fat, silver top = semi-skimmed, red top = skimmed.

The floats that delivered them were electric battery powered with the noise of the clanking glass bottles greater than the whine of the engine. The milkman collected the washed empties for re-use.

It is bad enough being assimilated to a bread van, but to make it sound like a milk float would have Colin fuming.

Offline 314159td

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday,April 01, 2025, 10:39:58 AM »
Weight isn't as much of a concern anymore. A wet Europa has 5-600+ lbs of ICE-related weight to tear out (depending on powertrain and # of tanks). The landscape of used EV parts has changed a lot from a decade ago when this was actually impossible. I spend a lot of time digging around the proverbial scrap bins of the EV space and can get my hands on fun parts from time to time, and have a decent idea of what's available.

Tesla 6.3 kWh modules are about 65 lbs and should give 20 miles of range each in an Europa, call it 6 of those so 400ish lbs with some HV connectors and plumbing. There are a handful of drive units in the 150-230lb territory that will provide similar power. It'll be close or over weight, but I reckon doable with less than a 200lb increase - as always, more money equals less weight. The little stuff can add up quickly in cost and weight, but there are strategies to mitigate. You still need a radiator, copper is heavy, etc.

If you want 500 miles of range, absolutely not doable. Pretty sure you can't go more than 150 with a standard Europa tank for most driving conditions. If you want crazy EV range...the options weigh 4+ times as much as a Europa. I'd bet that in about a decade, the affordable used parts can easily match an ICE Europa on all fronts - shouldn't cost more than a nice engine build, and it seems like most of us here have the fabrication skills or know people who do.

Offline gideon

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday,April 01, 2025, 11:22:39 AM »
It's been mentioned before on this forum before, but the Palatov D47 is an EV with the skin of a Europa and the guts of a race car.  You might even be able to order one if you have enough money.

https://www.dpcars.net/d47/index.htm

I reckon Colin would find it very interesting.
« Last Edit: Tuesday,April 01, 2025, 11:51:53 AM by gideon »

Offline Fotog

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #11 on: Sunday,April 06, 2025, 05:36:28 PM »
Brian and Mr. 4129R:  Thanks for the lesson on milk floats.  I suppose in this current day I could have looked it up, but nice to hear from you guys, and an interesting thing.  While I'm off-topic, I'll tell you that I like the idea of a "respray" too.  It sounds like something done in 45 minutes.  You know..."just pull 'er in here and we'll give 'er a respray, mate!"

 :)

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #12 on: Thursday,May 08, 2025, 03:05:50 PM »
He (Shane Walsh) has a new video showing the drive train from he electric motor and adapter plates to the bell housing. The last minute of the video shows the motor with drive shafts attached and running. He will be running a clutch with an electric drive. though I'm not sure how that is going to work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UobTA75zC0o 


Online BDA

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #13 on: Thursday,May 08, 2025, 04:15:16 PM »
I thought I remember that Tesla broke a few transmissions while testing the roadster (Lotus Elise based car) before they finally gave up. I hope he doesn't have the same problem.

Then there is the question whether he needs a transmission other than for a rear end since the motor should produce peak torque throughout the rpm range...

Interesting project. I'm sure he is aware of all of that and more so I imagine he's got it figured out.

Offline Benjy

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Re: Thinking about a Europa EV conversion?
« Reply #14 on: Thursday,May 08, 2025, 10:45:25 PM »
Ahoy All,

Thought I'd chime in here. Personally I love my BMW i3 EV. I have owned it for nearly 5 years now and I can unreservedly say it is by far the best car I have ever owned. However it is not like most EVs as it has a carbon tub and alloy chassis and is even lighter than most equivalent ICE cars. Of course it doesn't come close to the Europa in handling but it is pretty good with most of its weight down low. It is also extremely rapid and fun to drive. I too thought I'd miss the noise and the gears but I don't. It's very relaxing to drive and if you need to pass someone you just do. No need to change gear first. It's a very analogue EV with buttons and normal stalks for most of the controls proving that you can have an EV without a ridiculous touch screen. To me it is the best of both worlds.

There is a channel on YouTube that I like to follow and it's called 'Electric Classic Cars'. As the name suggests they convert classic cars. They start by weighing each corner of the car and then their goal is to convert to EV without adding weight or even distribute it in the vehicle better than before. They do the installation using existing mounts, make no new holes and should the owner ever want to convert to original they can. So long as the weight and its distribution can be kept close to original I think an EVropa would be an awesome machine. I know us Lotus fans don't mind tinkering on our cars but engines and their ancillaries do require a lot of time and expense spent keeping them working correctly. In the 5 years I have owned my EV I have only ever put windscreen washer fluid in it!

When mobile phones came out I can well remember what people thought of them. They were universally detested. 'Invasion of privacy' they said, 'battery life crap' etc. No one wanted one, except a few posers and now look at how ubiquitous they are. In time the EV will become the norm and that will be the end of it. There's a lot of misinformation about EVs out there but it seems that an awful lot of it is untrue. The battery in my i3 is now 10 years old and still working just fine. I love to preheat the cabin and defrost the windows on a cold morning without polluting the environment by running an engine.

It seems to me the only reason someone would not want a well engineered EVropa is because the public charging infrastructure, while improving, is for the most part diabolical and because a good EV conversion would cost as much as the car! But if I could convert my Europa for a reasonable price I'd definitely consider it. I don't think the driving experience would be ruined at all. I still find myself grinning when I drive the i3 5 years on! Imagine that silky smooth instant acceleration allied to the Europa's handling...

As for milk floats I mourn their demise. Even 50 years ago in England it was possible to quietly and cleanly deliver milk to homes all around the country. When I stayed with my brother last time milk was delivered by a milkman in a noisy diesel van who left his engine running outside the house while he went from home to home and woke me up! Is this progress?

Personally I would love to try an EVropa. In some ways if it could be done right maybe even Chapman would have approved. If it could be simpler and lighter, faster and cleaner why would he object?

Cheers

Benjy 54/0949 France
Benjy 54/0949 France