Author Topic: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor  (Read 879 times)

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Offline Sparkrite

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Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« on: Saturday,May 15, 2021, 11:00:20 AM »
I am trying to get my federal tcs roadworthy and I am now tackling the brakes. I have revised the rear drums with new wheel cylinders and then bled them . I wanted to pull apart the front calipers but had to settle for just bleeding them for the moment as I could not undo the brake pipe nuts.
However my question is why is does my brake pedal go to the floor. I am thinking it is something to do with the master cylinder,even though it was capable of bleeding the brakes.
The master cylinder is original with the large reservoir and palm sized cap.

Offline Pete

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #1 on: Saturday,May 15, 2021, 11:38:31 AM »
Yeah it sounds like your cylinder has given up the ghost
Europa S2 1970 great car
Me complete novice mechanic..
Let’s see how the restore goes.

Offline BDA

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #2 on: Saturday,May 15, 2021, 11:49:12 AM »
I am assuming that you see no fluid leaks. I think a small leak that you are likely to miss would more likely give you a soft pedal but it's possible that a larger leak could be collecting somewhere you don't see. Check all your fittings. If you're unsure, wrap the suspect fittings or parts of the pipes with something that is absorbent and display the leak. I've used pieces toilet paper or paper towel in the past. You could try talcum power. I'm sure there are others.

You say your bled your lines. Did you get a pedal then? When did your pedal start going to the floor? As a reminder, you should start bleeding your brakes at the cylinder furthest from your M/C and progressively get closer to the M/C. Unless your brake system has been rerouted, the cylinder furthest from the M/C is the passenger side brake caliper.

When your pedal goes to the floor, are you using up brake fluid (i.e. is the fluid level in your reservoir going down)?

If your M/C is untouched it could require a rebuild in which case I would take it to a shop that specializes in restorations (including hydraulics, of course) and hopefully they would give you a bronze liner.

Do you still have your boosters? What shape are they in? Have they been rebuilt or replaced? If they are original, I would probably replace your M/C with a 0.70 size M/C and take the boosters out. If you've got newer boosters (eg. Lockheed), your fluid may be going into the booster in which case it (or they) will need to be rebuilt or replaced or done away with as described above.

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #3 on: Saturday,May 15, 2021, 12:43:56 PM »
Did you have a hard pedal before doing any work on the brakes?
How did you bleed your brakes? If you did it the traditional way with the pedal, it's possible that the seals traveled into the part of the master cylinder bore that may have corrosion and damaged the seals during full travel of the pistons.

 

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #4 on: Saturday,May 15, 2021, 01:03:45 PM »
Be careful about separating the front calipers as the seal between the two halves does not come in the overhaul kit.  A few places carry them but they are not commonly available.  Source the seals first before splitting the calipers.

The TCS system is very convoluted and complicated.  Bleeding is difficult at the best of times.

- Brake pedal goes to the floor SLOWLY, reservoir is full and stays at the same level, system bled and free from air.  Your master cylinder is "bypassing internally".  Best repair is always replacement with a new master cylinder.  OEM cylinders are no longer available.  There are masters from other sources that can be adapted.

- Brake pedal goes to the floor SLOWLY, reservoir level goes down, no apparent leaks.  It's leaking at one of the servos.  Pull off the vacuum connection and look inside.  OEM servos are no longer available.  Lockheed ones can be fitted.  Servos can be removed greatly simplifying the brake system.  You would need to switch to a 0.70 master.  Triumph Spitfire ones are adaptable without too much bother.

Unless your Europa is a trailer queen, I do not recommend overhauling master cylinders, servos and rear wheel cylinders.  35 years of experience with only a handful of problematic new masters and countless numbers of failed "overhauled" masters and servos.  Even once had a Sunbeam Tiger with a rock hard pedal and virtually no brakes.  Someone had "overhauled" the servo and put in a key component backwards.  The servo was feeding pressurized brake fluid BACK to the master rather than to the wheels.  That was a real sphincter pucker-er to drive.

Offline Sparkrite

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #5 on: Saturday,May 15, 2021, 01:28:52 PM »
My car has had the twin servos removed before I acquired it.
The brake pedal always went to the floor, I am in the process of recomisioning the car.
I cant see any leaks anywhere, and I did wrap some tissue paper around the rear wheel cylinder fittings after putting in new ones to make sure there were no leaks.
When I bled the brakes , I had to top up the reservoir as the level went down. I know I need to bleed the system properly once done,I just bled them as I progressed, in order to check for air and the condition of the old fluid.
I do not intend to split the front calipers if the bores are good.
Finally I think this may be a direct replacement for my master cylinder but I would appreciate confirmation from those who know more.

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-213689ttps://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-213689

Offline Sparkrite

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #6 on: Saturday,May 15, 2021, 01:38:20 PM »
I should clarify the pedal only goes to the floor when I press it,otherwise it stays up in the normal position.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #7 on: Saturday,May 15, 2021, 08:16:22 PM »
Yup, GMC226.  Here's a previous thread on fitting one:

http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=138.0

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #8 on: Saturday,May 15, 2021, 10:21:58 PM »
I should clarify the pedal only goes to the floor when I press it,otherwise it stays up in the normal position.
If you rapidly pump the pedal, does it still go down every time or does the action of pumping it give you some sort of resistance & reduced travel ?  I'm just wondering if you've got all of the air out of the system, something which I've had trouble with on occasion.

Brian

Offline mike alain

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #9 on: Sunday,May 16, 2021, 04:51:15 AM »
Question to all about caliper  seals, I bought a complete kit but no seals, when I took apart there were none,  do they exist and where to buy and what are they made out of?
why would they sell kits and not include them?     I just did the brake job and will bleed soon,  hope they do not leak.  Mike.

Offline mike alain

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #10 on: Sunday,May 16, 2021, 05:01:12 AM »
2nd note on calipers,   on all calipers I have done before there was an   o ring  between,  but on my europa there is NOT the little  indent  for an o ring,  both halves are completely
smooth,     that is why I asked on previous note,     seems some do not have an o ring,   am I correct???

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #11 on: Sunday,May 16, 2021, 05:44:43 AM »
No, one side has a recess and an seal.

Offline BDA

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #12 on: Sunday,May 16, 2021, 06:50:29 AM »
2nd note on calipers,   on all calipers I have done before there was an   o ring  between,  but on my europa there is NOT the little  indent  for an o ring,  both halves are completely
smooth,     that is why I asked on previous note,     seems some do not have an o ring,   am I correct???

I wonder if the PO took both calipers apart and put the wrong halves together. If he did, your other caliper would have a recess for an o-ring on both halves. The o-ring has a square cross section. Don’t get a plane o-ring, get the correct Girling o-ring.

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #13 on: Sunday,May 16, 2021, 08:21:31 AM »
I wonder if the PO took both calipers apart and put the wrong halves together.

Can you do that? Wouldn't one brake have two sets of connection and bleed hardware, and the other side none?

Offline BDA

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Re: Why does my brake pedal go to the floor
« Reply #14 on: Sunday,May 16, 2021, 08:31:03 AM »
 :headbanger: Good catch! I didn’t think of another reason why neither half would have the recess.