Author Topic: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini  (Read 29933 times)

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Offline GavinT

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #105 on: Sunday,February 14, 2021, 07:54:49 AM »
Hi Stefan . . that's disappointing.
Weren't the normal Gordini engines used in Formula Renault in France?
Did they ever use the 807-G4 in Formula Renault?

We used to have Formula 2 here in Oz - similar to your pics but not limited to Renault engines. I once managed to buy a Gordini spec. engine from a racer in Sydney.

Many years ago I was on holiday in Tahiti. Went over to Papeete for a look around and ended up talking to a French guy. Apparently he raced an Alpine A110 on the island and had recently landed an 807-G4 in a crate from France.
If you read up on the G4's history, it apparently had a number of issues. Probably nothing that couldn't be ironed out but there was very little actual development done at the time. Such a pity.

Offline Mecky

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #106 on: Sunday,February 14, 2021, 09:55:14 AM »
That's right. The Formula Renault only used the normal Gordini engine, as shown on the pics in my last post. It's the same engine as I have in my car. That's why I'm interested in the Formula Renault exhaust.

The DOHC cylinder head has nothing to do with Formula Renault. It was developed to win the World Rallye Championship. The junior Formula racing series mostly use mass-produced engines with easy-to-get tuning parts in order to keep the cars cheap and the competition close.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #107 on: Sunday,February 14, 2021, 10:28:42 AM »
The Banks crossflow header is similar:

https://www.lotus-supplies.com/part-category/exhaust/renault/

The primaries are not as long but that is easily adjusted.

Offline Mecky

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #108 on: Sunday,February 14, 2021, 11:02:01 AM »
The Banks crossflow header is similar:

https://www.lotus-supplies.com/part-category/exhaust/renault/

The primaries are not as long but that is easily adjusted.

Looks nice. Does anybody here use this manifold? I'm curious how big the ports at the flange are. My head has quite big outlet ports.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #109 on: Sunday,February 14, 2021, 01:24:51 PM »
Yes, I use it.  I have a “large port/valve 807 engine and it matched up perfectly.  The flange is extra thick so you could easily do some match porting.
« Last Edit: Sunday,February 14, 2021, 07:27:30 PM by jbcollier »

Offline StephenH

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #110 on: Sunday,February 14, 2021, 05:41:54 PM »
Looks nice. Does anybody here use this manifold? I'm curious how big the ports at the flange are. My head has quite big outlet ports.

I have the Banks headers on my car and I'm sure they would work fairly well on your car (probably with some modifications).
Depending on camshaft and how you want torque delivered you could shorten/lengthen the primary length fairly easily (as the collector is removable).
I recall your current exhaust runs fairly high in the engine bay?

The Banks headers are designed to go into road cars so run below the level of the storage box, or in my car below the spare wheel.
Can't recall if your rear suspension takes up any of the space that the Banks exhaust might use - too many years since we met in Germany :)
Stephen
54/1690 1969 S2

Offline Mecky

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #111 on: Monday,February 15, 2021, 03:30:07 AM »
Yes, correct. My manifold runs high, almost directly underneath the engine cover.

Your experiences with the Banks manifold sound promising. I guess, I'll try it. Maybe as an upgrade during the season or for 2022. Right now I'm a little bit financially limited. I had to pay back my study loan all at once at the end of last year. Slowly recovering in the moment :-D

Offline StephenH

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #112 on: Monday,February 15, 2021, 04:03:58 PM »
The Banks headers have a lot longer primary length (about 770-780mm with about 40mm diameter) than what you have now.
Maybe the best way forward is to custom fabricate a set more like you have now, but close to the formula car example.... start practicing welding? :)

The Banks run fairly close to the starter motor and might need shielding around your CV boot, you are racing so more heat for longer to be considered.

I look at the length of your primary pipes and keep thinking someone was chasing very high RPM.
I don't have a dyno sheet for my car as I was only chasing mixture safety, not really caring about the numbers.
Power was still building beyond 7500rpm with good torque above 3500rpm.
Not sure what camshaft you are running, but compared to the typical '160HP' build used on Alpine A110 here in Australia mine is different.
Based on 'seat of pants' and hillclimb/sprint results mine makes more torque and still outruns the (1600cc version) A110s in a straight line.
This is based on 2 cars that have competed together many times and both have similar spec engines (other than camshaft and exhaust) that were built by the same person.
I have attached details of the camshaft in mine for reference.
Stephen
54/1690 1969 S2

Offline Mecky

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #113 on: Sunday,February 28, 2021, 11:49:40 AM »
Funny enough, the stainless steel manifold, which I still use today was freshly built in 1994, when the car was converted from white/red to british racing green with flares. But the exhaust was intended for road use, thus not for high-rev application. You can see the photos below.
I'm running a 310° camshaft and it has maximum power output at 6625 RPM.

I have now got the car back from the painter. He had to finish the modelling of the type 47 NACA ducts and I quite like the result. I also attached a few pics taken yesterday. Thus, almost 27 years between the pictures. Almost unbelievable that they show the same car :ttiwwp:

Offline Mecky

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #114 on: Tuesday,April 06, 2021, 03:37:26 AM »
The car is now as good as ready for the first race weekend on 8/9 May and my entry has been conditionally accepted. Now I have to hope that the quarantine regulations of Germany and/or Belgium won't destroy my plans. Before the race, I'll install the connector for easy jump-starting and have a new set of semislicks fitted. If my participation on the race weekend should still fail due to a formality, I'll switch to a test day on Thursday, 6 May (if stays in Belgium of less than 24 hours are allowed), so that I can at least get some track time.

I have bolted ballast firmly to the floor panel in the footwell on the passenger side in front of the fire extinguisher. I hope that I will reach the minimum weight of 740 kg with that. Otherwise I'll have to screw more steel into the car. :headbanger:

To fill the circuit to the new oil cooler, I filled in one litre more than I had drained after the oil change. As a result, the level in the oil pan was well above maximum, but after about a minute of running the starter without fuel and ignition, the level on the dipstick remained exactly constant at max. Accordingly, I could assume that the liquid gold (10W60) had completely perfused the circuit. Unfortunately, the small racing battery is not designed for minute-long starting, so I had to jump-start with my daily driver, but then the Europa started immediately and the oil pressure was right there.

Since the engine originally (in the R16) only holds 3.5 litres of oil and in my current configuration contains 6 litres (enlarged oil pan and larger oil cooler), the large amount of oil does not get warm at all at low revs (after 30 minutes at 90 km/h in 3rd/4th gear on dyno: approx. 55 °C). Only at revs above 5000 does the oil temperature rise rapidly, but that is of course quite difficult when the car is stationary. So it's probably more useful for me to warm up the engine carefully on the track than to let it run for ages at a standstill.

Due to the current situation, I'm refraining from a test drive before the race. The schedule is too tight because of my job and the risk of quarantine. Since the entry fee for the first race has been paid, I will classify this as a test under competition conditions and approach it very cautiously. If my participation in the race weekend should still fail due to some formality, I'll switch to a test day on Thursday 6 May (if stays in Belgium of less than 24 hours are allowed) so that I can at least finally get track time.

To celebrate the first start-up in 2021 and because of the nice weather, I took the opportunity to take some photos outside. I really like the new air intakes on the side. And now the season can finally start for all I care. I'm looking forward to it AF. :pirate:

Offline BDA

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #115 on: Tuesday,April 06, 2021, 05:40:57 AM »
If she goes as fast as she looks, you'll do great this year!

Congratulations on a lot of fine work!   :beerchug:

Good luck with the quarantine situation!
« Last Edit: Thursday,May 13, 2021, 01:41:07 PM by BDA »

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #116 on: Tuesday,April 06, 2021, 06:53:54 AM »
Looks great, well done!

Depending on how your oil system is plumbed, you have to be careful about the first start up when there is a long run to the oil cooler.  With a dry sump, it is usually not an an issue as the oil cooler feed is separate from the pressure feed.  With a wet sump though, it goes from the oil pump to the cooler/filter and then back before it gets to the bearings.  I have seen brand new engines sustain significant damage before the oil reached the bearings(!).  And this with the spark plugs out and spinning up on the starter.

On my set up, I have access ports T-ed into the feed lines to the front mounted oil cooler.  This allows me to pressurize the system with an electric oil pump.  It allows so allows me to blow out the remanning old oil from the cooler during an oil change.  I then close one port and pump fresh oil in the other until oil pressure registers on the gauge.

To facilitate oil warm-up, fit an oil thermostat in the feed to the oil cooler.  I use one built into my take-off plate.  High rpm on cold oil, especially long runs, could easily lead to spun bearings.

Offline MRN I J

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #117 on: Tuesday,April 06, 2021, 10:52:30 AM »
Looks great, well done!

Depending on how your oil system is plumbed, you have to be careful about the first start up when there is a long run to the oil cooler.  With a dry sump, it is usually not an an issue as the oil cooler feed is separate from the pressure feed.  With a wet sump though, it goes from the oil pump to the cooler/filter and then back before it gets to the bearings.  I have seen brand new engines sustain significant damage before the oil reached the bearings(!).  And this with the spark plugs out and spinning up on the starter.

On my set up, I have access ports T-ed into the feed lines to the front mounted oil cooler.  This allows me to pressurize the system with an electric oil pump.  It allows so allows me to blow out the remanning old oil from the cooler during an oil change.  I then close one port and pump fresh oil in the other until oil pressure registers on the gauge.

To facilitate oil warm-up, fit an oil thermostat in the feed to the oil cooler.  I use one built into my take-off plate.  High rpm on cold oil, especially long runs, could easily lead to spun bearings.

Good thinking John, hadn't really thought about that but the oil would have to be pumped 16/17ft before it returned to the engine, we used to pump up the oil pressure with a spare belt & cordless drill on the dry sump pump of Manta 400s that we worked on.
So you use an electric oil pump if the car has been standing for any length of time & an oilstat (which I would use)
Regards Chris

other cars inc wifes cars
Aston Martin DB MkIII DHC (wifes)
Aston Martin DB2 Saloon (shared)
MkI Austin Cooper S with less than 50k miles on it
Oldest existing LR Discovery S3, one of 1st 125 hand built cars
Peugeot 406 with less than 55k miles on it

Offline Mecky

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #118 on: Tuesday,April 06, 2021, 11:31:57 PM »
Looks great, well done!

Depending on how your oil system is plumbed, you have to be careful about the first start up when there is a long run to the oil cooler.  With a dry sump, it is usually not an an issue as the oil cooler feed is separate from the pressure feed.  With a wet sump though, it goes from the oil pump to the cooler/filter and then back before it gets to the bearings.  I have seen brand new engines sustain significant damage before the oil reached the bearings(!).  And this with the spark plugs out and spinning up on the starter.

On my set up, I have access ports T-ed into the feed lines to the front mounted oil cooler.  This allows me to pressurize the system with an electric oil pump.  It allows so allows me to blow out the remanning old oil from the cooler during an oil change.  I then close one port and pump fresh oil in the other until oil pressure registers on the gauge.

To facilitate oil warm-up, fit an oil thermostat in the feed to the oil cooler.  I use one built into my take-off plate.  High rpm on cold oil, especially long runs, could easily lead to spun bearings.
That sounds like a very good solution, thank you jb. I'll bear that in mind. The other possibility would be to upgrade the system with a dry sump. I'll keep my eye on the oil issue and be very careful with heating up the engine.

Offline Mecky

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Re: Lotus Europa 16V Gordini
« Reply #119 on: Thursday,May 13, 2021, 12:46:55 PM »
The race weekend in Zolder was difficult. Unfortunately, the cause of the problem only became clear to me afterwards whith analysis. But first things first:

There were a total of 3 x 30 minutes of track time on the 4 km long race track of Zolder. In qualifying I blamed my weak lap time of 2:08 min (in 2014 I drove 2:00 min at the same place) on lack of practice and the heavy traffic. After all, there were over 50 cars on the track at the same time - and almost all of them were faster than me. The fastest race cars were from the BTCC, the former European Touring Car Championship Group A (Volvo 240, Ford Mustang 5 litre), as well as the old DTM (BMW M3 E30, Mercedes 190). In addition, cars up to the year 2000 are allowed, which have usually much bigger displacement than a Lotus Europa from 1969. Accordingly, I almost looked more into the mirrors during practice than through the windshield. Of course, I'm a bit more afraid of collisions than a BMW E36 driver who can buy a new fender for 50 €.

What was very positive, however, were the temperatures of water and oil, which were always between 70 and 90°C, depending on the condition and load. The water was always a bit cooler than the oil.

In the race I had a few free laps, but unfortunately I noticed that I didn't get significantly faster. 2:06 min was the best I managed. Unfortunately, I couldn't really determine the cause yet, but in the course of the race, the brakes deteriorated a lot. After about 25 minutes, the brake performance was suddenly almost completely gone. Fortunately, this happened on the way to the hairpin, which has an emergency exit straight ahead. The next bend was directly before the pit entry and I had to go straight again, so I parked the car in the pits to be on the safe side. I was in a 'far end' position nontheless, so the risk of continuing would have been too big.

When I checked the car between races, it was obvious that the rear brake shoes (drum brakes) were completely gone. Luckily I had another set of shoes with me and replaced them. As the new Pirelli tyres were mistakenly delivered to me in hard compound (my work colleague took delivery, so I couldn't complain), I wanted to use my soft Kumhos tyres for the second race to try something different. As it turned out, these tyres were significantly worse (probably due to age). I was about 4 seconds slower than in the first race. Even during the safety car phase (a Mini shot itself out) I held up other cars in the corners. And with a light car with wide tyres and a widened track, at least cornering should go better than with touring cars that may weigh more than a ton. Of course they have slicks on them and I don't, but that alone can't be the reason. The old semis were the worse choice. Unfortunately, despite being behind the safety car for about 3-4 laps, I had the same problem with the rear brake as in race 1, so that I had to retire again shortly before the chequered flag in order not to risk a total loss of the car.

The only positive thing is that the measured top speed was even higher in every session than in 2014 at the same place. So engine performance should not be the problem.

What I noticed afterwards: the brake pads on the front axle were completely glazed and hardly produced any friction. There was hardly any dust in the front rim after the sessions, while the rear rims were black inside. Accordingly, it must have been the case that the drum brake had to do the bulk of the work, while not much happened at the front. Of course, this could now be fixed with new brake pads. After all, I also drove the 2:00 min with the same brake back in the day. But now that the regulations are much freer than before, I'm going to make an improvement. The ventilated brake for the front has already been ordered. Disc brakes will also be fitted at the rear. As these modifications will of course consume time and money, I already know that I will miss the next two BELCAR Historic Cup races. I'm now focusing everything on the race in Spa-Francorchamps at the end of September. The track is 7 km long, so I won't be lapped that often.

Now a few photos: