Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: TurboFource on Sunday,October 06, 2019, 10:40:01 AM
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What is the story with brake boosters? I see people remove them and put in a different master cylinder. Were they needed on a car as light as an Europa?
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Using a smaller M/C and booster delete is a common mod. The boosters do make a difference - otherwise, you wouldn't need to concern yourself with the smaller M/C, right? :) Of course, the pedal travel will be a little bit longer with the smaller M/C.
I elected to use boosters on my car mostly because I liked the brakes when my car was new and stock and wasn't sure that I would like the longer pedal travel. I don't think I've ever heard a complaint about that from people who have gone that route. It certainly makes the plumbing a lot simpler and the whole thing less expensive. There's a lot to be said for the booster delete idea.
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If you want to keep the boosters, make sure you buy new ones. Rebuilt ones are fine for garage queens but a bit chancy for drivers. Girling boosters are no longer available but Lockheed ones are. Look a bit different but function essentially the same.
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Anyone know the various failure modes for the Girling boosters?
Like BDA, I really liked and got use to working boosters on my TCS. Never really got use to the stock Girling M/C with EBC green pads on my S2. For the TCS, will be installing the Courier M/C until I can round up a pair of Lockheed boosters to an eventual return to boosted brakes.
Joji Tokumoto
Fallbrook, Ca
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Lockheed boosters are available at most British parts suppliers. They even can supply them with a bracket that adapts them to the Girling mounting holes.
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I installed a Duralast m51801 master cylinder with remote reservoirs. It cost about $35 at Autozone. If you have questions on how to do remote reservoirs, get back to me. The remote reservoirs make access much simpler than the oem layout.
I removed the residual valves because the the reservoirs were above the calipers and rear cylinders.
Anyway, I have the lockheed boosters mounted in the front. I just changed from Greenstuff pads to Mintex 1144. I am very pleased, the problem is they squeal a bit. The Greenstuff pads were very grabby with the boosters and I didn’t like them.
I posted some photos of the installation somewhere on this blog. I could never find a Courier master cylinder but found this one. It is .875” diameter.
I recently posted about front end lockup, but is is improving as the brakes, especially the rear shoes bed in.
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I just deleted them and changed the master cylinder. No issue and you save weight taking everything out.
As I understand it, the only reason these were installed is due to government regulations that you have to have a brake fail indication that was pressure related and not fluid level indication. That the reason for all the extra plumbing, pressure switch and the boosters.
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Certified,
I think I saw a Wilwood proportioning valve on you car? Was this part of deleting the boosters?
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I just looked at a drawings of the brake lines with boosters on a Europa.
The craziest looking system I have seen :confused:
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I run a single circuit system with no booster. Works great and bleeding is a breeze.
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Certified,
I think I saw a Wilwood proportioning valve on you car? Was this part of deleting the boosters?
I installed this for future change to rear disk brakes. The guy who was going to build these in Europe never did, so right now it’s just an in line valve wide open.
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I just looked at a drawings of the brake lines with boosters on a Europa.
The craziest looking system I have seen :confused:
It would be a lot simpler if the front booster was in the front and rear booster was in the rear but because the vacuum source is in the rear, the boosters are in the rear (till I read Pfreen's post) so the front circuit goes back to the booster and then back to front. The rear circuit is much simpler. When the dual brake systems came, the PDWV and the extra booster made things a little more complicated still.
I'm happy with my boosters and if you use them too, you can mount them behind the rear wheels and you can use their original location for something else. I also like having two circuits rather than just one.
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Actually, putting the vacuum boosters up front was not too difficult. I ran a 3/8 ss tube from the engine to up front along the frame for the vacuum source. The brake lines were there and only needed minor mods to make it work.
I have also seen them mounted at 90 degrees in the original girling booster location. Literary madness’s car has the boosters in the rear behind the wheels.
I have never driven a Special without the boosters so I cannot comment on whether they are a good or bad thing. I just know the braking right now is pretty darn good😊 and the pedal feel is excellent.
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That's pretty cleaver, Pfreen!
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I am doing a restoration of chassis 3525R a 73 Twin Cam Special. I received the car as a basket case, it was disassembled 25 years ago. The master was removed and it was stuck so I figured the boosters were not going to be any better. I have decided to remove the boosters. Less complicated and less weight. I replaced the master with a 3/4 inch Tilton universal. I also bought a Jeg's proportioning valve but one of the members said it won't be necessary so I left the proportioning valve out. I don't think I will have the car running again till next spring so in my case, the jury is out.
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What is the story with brake boosters? I see people remove them and put in a different master cylinder. Were they needed on a car as light as an Europa?
I can understand why you're asking that one, it must be one of the most commonly talked about brake mods to our cars (and the period Elans as well). And it gets more confusing if you read up and find that for the dual circuit cars boosters were fitted as standard but for single circuit cars they were originally an optional extra. So Lotus obviously didn't think they were essential - but more later on that optional choice. It's even more confusing when you look at the 90's Elise S1, fractionally heavier yet came without servo assistance but has short pedal travel, low pedal pressure and brakes like nothing else.
So do you need one (or two ! ) servo/booster for good brakes ? Nope, but there are obvious plus and minus boxes and you'll need to decide if those boxes are important to you.
Probably the most notable are pedal pressure and travel. Let's talk about travel and an extra 1/2" or 3/4" of travel might not sound much but the first time you experience that extra distance you'll be thinking you aren't going to stop. But if you swap the m/cyl from say 1" to 0.7" then to displace the fluid needed you're going to get more travel. You can reduce this by re-drilling the actuating rod pivot on the brake pedal & trading pedal pressure for reduced travel, but that's a very limited option due to the space we have to play with. Conclusion - if you stay with standard disc/drums/pads and want the same pedal pressure as a boosted car, you'll need a smaller m/cyl & get more pedal travel.
Pedal pressure; the servo/booster wasn't a particularly high ratio (1.9:1, 2:1 ?) but clearly it made a difference to the braking effort so if you take it off and do nothing else, you'll be pressing harder. And as with extended travel, you might think the brakes are suddenly lousy. Again there are ways to get around this and the simplest is fitting higher friction pad materials, EBC Greenstuff, Mintex, etc. Fitting larger discs or different calipers will also get you back to the lighter pedal of an assisted car, but that's obviously a more complex option.
My personal take is that you can run any brake system, single/dual circuit, assisted or non-assisted and you'll be fine. But the trick is to ensure your choice is balanced and designed to run as such so you'll probably end up making more than one alteration if you want to achieve the braking feel of the previous design.
Brian
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I have been wrestling with this question since I bought my car 2 years ago. My PO deleted the boosters but left the original dual circuit MC. My first reaction driving the car was AAAAAHHHH! No Brakes! But, that was only in comparison to my late model BMW and Volvo family cars. I looked into the Spitfire NC substitute, and I got fairly far along on an experiment to sleeve to OEM master cylinder and machined new pistons to preserve the stepped ratio for the front and rear brakes. My latest thought is to simply drill a new clevis hole in the brake pedal closer to the fulcrum and raise the whole pedal assembly slightly to keep the geometry in line with the MC.
So, what did I end up doing? Nothing, that's what. I am completely used to having to apply authoritative pressure to the brakes, and I can lock them up if needed. The pedal throw is wonderfully short and responsive, I am maintaining the front/rear stepped MC piston ratio, I did not have to fab new brake lines and I get "originality points" for having the OEM master cylinder. YMMV
Tom
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Thanks for the replies!
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I find the extra pedal travel provides wonderful feel and makes modulation very easy.
Greenstuff pads fade on (very) long downhills -- was otherwise delighted. Trying Mintex 1144s but no long trips till next year as winter is coming.
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I have been wrestling with this question since I bought my car 2 years ago. My PO deleted the boosters but left the original dual circuit MC. My first reaction driving the car was AAAAAHHHH! No Brakes! But, that was only in comparison to my late model BMW and Volvo family cars. I looked into the Spitfire NC substitute, and I got fairly far along on an experiment to sleeve to OEM master cylinder and machined new pistons to preserve the stepped ratio for the front and rear brakes. My latest thought is to simply drill a new clevis hole in the brake pedal closer to the fulcrum and raise the whole pedal assembly slightly to keep the geometry in line with the MC.
So, what did I end up doing? Nothing, that's what. I am completely used to having to apply authoritative pressure to the brakes, and I can lock them up if needed. The pedal throw is wonderfully short and responsive, I am maintaining the front/rear stepped MC piston ratio, I did not have to fab new brake lines and I get "originality points" for having the OEM master cylinder. YMMV
Tom
Tom, what pads are you using? Driving my TCS with the failed boosters, I could never apply enough pedal pressure to lock the brakes, much less stop in a reasonable distance. Felt like braking with blocks of wood and afraid of snapping the brake pedal.
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Tom, what pads are you using? Driving my TCS with the failed boosters, I could never apply enough pedal pressure to lock the brakes, much less stop in a reasonable distance. Felt like braking with blocks of wood and afraid of snapping the brake pedal.
When I first bought the car I had a local custom shop go over the car (the shop owner is a former JPS owner). They replaced all the brake pads but I'm not sure what they used. Being a high performance shop I wouldn't be surprised if they used Greenstuff or something like it. I'll ask next time I see the shop owner.
Tom
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Hi,
I am doing the same thing on my 73 TCS, A Tilton 74 3/4" with no booster or proportioning valve, its a very simple set up and super easy to run the brake lines to disks all round. Like you, I will not know how this will perform until late next year, but nothing is irreversible if it doesn't work out as I hope.
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if you want to maintain originality - keep the boosters.
if you want to modify/improve or don't care about originality, then your option to remove boosters.
years ago, they were easily and readily rebuilt. in past years, the rebuild kits became unavailable here in the states, thus contributing to their demise. Recently, the rebuild kits are readily available in England and can be shipped to USA. There are a couple rebuilders out there (Apple hydraulics, White Post, etc.) that resleeve and rebuild them.
So since they can now be easily rebuilt like any other part or system on the car, why not keep originality and keep them???
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Reduce weight. Colin would have eliminated them if he could have.
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Certified: Do you know the weight of your car? The answer would be helpful.
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Hi,
I am doing the same thing on my 73 TCS, A Tilton 74 3/4" with no booster or proportioning valve, its a very simple set up and super easy to run the brake lines to disks all round. Like you, I will not know how this will perform until late next year, but nothing is irreversible if it doesn't work out as I hope.
My '73 TC is missing its boosters, but has the original master cylinder. I was thinking about a smaller one, and in reading here I kind of settled upon the Spitfire MC. But now I'm curious about these Tilton MC's. I look at their website and I don't see anything about a dual-circuit cylinder. Are you planning on using 2 of them?
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Certified: Do you know the weight of your car? The answer would be helpful.
No idea. The local drive on scale near my house is located down a dirty road that has all kinds debris scattered about from big dump trucks hauling stuff. No way am I driving down that road in the Lotus.
I’ll need to find another or wait until the next SCCA track event at NJMP and ask nicely for the scrutineers to weigh me in.