Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: BERNIEHUMBER on Monday,June 11, 2018, 01:22:10 PM
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HI:
A question that could be answered easily if I was next to the Europa.I have to bolt the "cross piece" of the frame to the main frame and go through both sides of the main frame.
What is the dimension (approx) between the two arrows I have drawn?
I know the originals just go through one side but this frame was boxed in(added strength) which limited my access to those bolts.
Like I have mentioned this Europa is in my Father-in-laws drive shed an hour and a half away so I need to go there with the proper lengths bolts in hand.
Thanks
Bernie
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The bolts for the cross member don't go though the entire box section of the frame. They only go through the "ears" of the cross member and the first sheet of steel on the back "legs of the frame so your bolts will only be gripping about 1/4".
That assumes that you're not making a modification that requires you to go through the while "box" of the frame.
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HI:
You are correct but the frame "boxing" went down to a point where I can't access the nut(s) on the inside of the channel as it is now inaccessible.
The pic I used is not of my machine but there to give reference as to how long the replacement bolts need to be.
If I had to guess it would be in the area of 2 to 2.5 inches?
Thanks
Bernie
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I make it more like 1 3/4" but that is probably only to +/- 1/4" since on my car, there is a lot of stuff in the way of making a really accurate measurement.
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HI:Thanks for the effort!!
Bernie
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G’day Bernie,
There are no "nuts" inside the chassis leg.
The stock bolts screw into a welded-in and threaded thick steel section.
25mm bolts would be fine for this.
The measurement between your black arrows is ~ 60mm.
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Interesting!
On my stock frame and my Spyder frame (before they sold their "space frame" frame, they made a sheet metal frame that provided enhanced access to several places - I have one of those), the frame was boxed till it got near the position of the cross member so you could get a wrench on a nut. I was about to say that the width of the "leg" isn't critical but it does have a vertical flange on it and my memory (always suspect - especially from so long ago) is that the frame and body fit there was no different from the original.
My cross member is much wider than a stock one (or even the more recent twin link cross members Richard sells) so I might not have been able to measure at the exact place where the cross member is bolted to the frame but I did measure fairly close to the shock so it surprises me that yours is so much thicker than mine there!
Gavin, is yours a stock frame? Could the PO have put those threaded plates there (not a bad idea)? Do you have an aftermarket frame?
Poor Bernie... Having conflicting measurements isn't helping him! Maybe someone (else) with a stock frame can settle this for him.
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G’day Bernie,
There are no "nuts" inside the chassis leg.
The stock bolts screw into a welded-in and threaded thick steel section.
25mm bolts would be fine for this.
The measurement between your black arrows is ~ 60mm.
^^ this
I made a new one recently and my (TC) chassis looks very similar to yours. No access required to the internal box section, they go into a steel plate. I'd guess Gavin isn't far off on 1" bolts either, they're certainly not very long.
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G’day BDA,
Yes, mine’s a stock S2 frame. They’re all like that, sir. ;D . . or at least that's what I'm presuming.
However, I’ve incorporated a longer boxed in piece at the location we’re talking about and I can stick my finger in (through an access hole) and feel the welded-in steel piece.
My guess is that it’s about 3/8 inch thick.
I added on 1/16 inch for the frame thickness and another 1/8 inch for the crossmember mount. That’s how I figured 25mm (1 inch) bolts would be fine.
I’m not sure how mine might be thicker than yours - seems odd.
Looking at EuropaTC’s pic, his looks roughly the same leg thickness as mine. Dunno.
One other thing that’s not clear to me is where Bernie says he has to “go through both sides of the main frame”.
If that’s the case, I trust he has some spacers (welded in or otherwise) between the inner and outer box section faces.
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I think his chassis has had an additional plate added across the 'open' side of the channel - he says in the original post that the chassis has been 'Boxed in' - which is why he is asking for the dimension marked in his pic as he can't fit the standard length bolts because they won't make it through the other plate?
If the chassis has been 'boxed in' then for added strength it is worth fixing some sort of spacer tubes between the two faces of the chassis to prevent any 'crushing' of the chassis as the bolts are tightened etc...
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HI:
Thanks all for coming to the aid of a fellow Europa guy!!
"There are no "nuts" inside the chassis leg.
The stock bolts screw into a welded-in and threaded thick steel section."
This might be the answer as this boxing in was done 25 years ago and I have trouble remembering what I had for yesterdays dinner!!
If I can remove the twin bolts on either side holding the X member in place life will be more manageable.
If worst comes to worst and they have to be drilled out the 60mm dimension will come into play.
I rebuilt(restored) a Sunbeam Tiger and I forgot how all these seemingly small problems hold back major accomplishments.
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(http://www.lotuseuropa.org/gallery/albums/album13/crossmember_2.jpg)
(http://www.lotuseuropa.org/gallery/albums/album13/Crossmember_1.jpg)
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HI Lotus Joe:If I had access to the Nylocs I would'nt have my problem.
The boxing of the frame hides and goes far enough back to not allow me to get at them.
Now my question is :are the cross member securing bolts held in place with Nylocs or are the stock bolts screwed into a welded-in?
Does this change with the year?
Bernie
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The boxing of my frame stops just short of the nuts. So for me they are easy to get to. Not sure about other years. Mine is a TC Special '73. I looked at the parts book for the S-2 and it looks to be covered, but you still should be able to get a spanner in there to hold the nut on the back side.
(http://www.lotuseuropa.org/gallery/albums/album13/bothframes_01.jpg)
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I just re-read your post and now realize that your frame has been modified by closing the back side of the frame. Hopefully they thought ahead and did in fact weld some nuts to the frame.
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Ahhh . . thanks, Joe. It looks like the TC is different.
I wonder if there's a possibility of drilling an oval hole sufficient to get a socket onto those nuts . . on the end of a wobble extension?
As I say, without tube sleeves in there, I don't see how it's possible to clamp through-bolts down.
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HI:
I have an S2 and what I hear from Gavin is that there is a chance that the nut (s) are weld-ons which would simplify my life other wise a spanner access would have to be "made" in the frame.
A slot the width of a spanner(plus nut) could be ground in directly above the existing nuts for access then use a box wrench with the replacement nut wedged in to allow a tricky restart of the threads when reattaching the cross-member.
Why am I not looking forward to this exercise?
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G’day Bernie,
First things first, I reckon.
Try screwing a bolt in - 5/16 inch UNF.
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That's intriguing Joe, I wonder why mine & Gavin's are different, is this the result of "improvements" over the years ? ;)
But going back to the OP's problem, I think I'd just undo one. If a nut falls away inside then cut away a small section of the boxed section with an angle grinder from inside the engine bay (should be plenty of room) so you can bolt up the new crossmember. Then either weld the plate back or leave it alone, the additional boxed section isn't a standard thing and I only did mine because there was quite a bit of loose rust on the inner surfaces so I covered the section & waxoyled the insides.
Brian
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HI:
Hope for the best but prepare for the worst!!
A good life lesson.
Bernie
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Ahhh . . thanks, Joe. It looks like the TC is different.
I wonder if there's a possibility of drilling an oval hole sufficient to get a socket onto those nuts . . on the end of a wobble extension?
As I say, without tube sleeves in there, I don't see how it's possible to clamp through-bolts down.
I think that my be the solution!