Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: ICSNO on Wednesday,April 13, 2016, 10:50:47 AM
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Hi all! I am excited to have found this community! I found the yahoo group and joined over there as well but the entire format seemed quite confusing so now I'm posting here! Haha.
I am in college studying mechanical engineering in New York and Lotus is my favorite make. And the Europa is my favorite model. It was the Exige for a while but ultimately became the Europa because it has a longitudinal engine (mass more centrally located), is lower, and has more character. Oh yeah, and it's even lighter than the Exige! :O And possibly cheaper. $45k for an Exige? Sheesh.
Currently I own an 01 Toyota Celica GTS and it has been my trusty daily driver ever since I was 16. I won't buy any sort of performance car until I have some sort of garage to put it in so I am more planning for the long term here. My plan is to build/buy a Europa S2, and put a Duratec engine mated to a VW type 1 transaxle with an adapter. If my research is correct, this is possible just as long as the transaxle can handle the torque of the Duratec.
This sort of car leads to two questions that I will now pass on to you guys haha:
1. How much horsepower should the Duratec be built to? I believe that there is an ideal amount of horsepower (depending on weight) that allows you to be somewhat competitive with modern cars on track days as well as not letting the car become an exercise in restraint. I'm used to 2500lbs/180hp or about 14 lbs per hp and I think that it's pretty quick. Certainly not fast, but it can be fun to toss around.
2. Should I have one built from Banks in the UK or source a Europa in the US and build it up from there? I would want to swap the rear brakes, probably replace suspension bits, get a new frame, completely different engine and transmission, redo the electronics, and probably paint the entire car. Isn't that almost the same thing as buying a new Europa if I'm swapping/fixing everything anyway? And for the life of me I can't find one documented customer who has actually bought a car from Richard Winter. I have no idea what the price is or how it would be imported/registered in the US. If anyone could point me in the direction of a documented purchase and experiences that their new car gave them please let me know! My favorite of Richard's is the type 47 model. :) Thanks everyone!
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:Welcome: ICSNO!
I'm not sure I've known of anybody who had Richard build him a car,either. There is a guy on this forum who had his car restored by Richard, and I've bought several bits from Richard. I can tell you that his work is top notch. That being said, I would think that unless you have the money and don't want to be bothered building a car (given that you're an ME student, I wouldn't think that would apply), I would suggest that you build it yourself. They're pretty simple and, as you've surely seen, there are a lot of people who have done some very interesting things with Europas.
I can't help you with the Duratec and VW transaxle question. As you probably already know, the usual engine swap is to a Ford Zetec or Toyota 4AGE and the usual transaxle upgrade choice is a Renault NG3, but others have used. There's a guy on this board who is building a transverse engine Europa and I think it was somebody else who mentioned an Audi transaxle. If your car is going to be a track car, you might consider a Hewland. Gear sets are easily changed, gear changes are lightening quick, but their non synchromesh straight cut gears mean they aren't well suited for street use.
I think you should be able to get better performance than you're used to. Your car should be around 1500 lbs and you can get toward 180 hp or more without too much trouble.
When do you graduate? Keep us up to date on your plans and progress!
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Thanks for the reply BDA! Graduation is a bit undefined since I may combine classes for graduate and undergraduate at the same time but I should be graduating somewhere around 2018. I am doing a double-degree thing for two degrees in five years (my other degree is in Physics) so I'm currently a Junior but I should remain a Junior for next year haha.
I'm not completely gung-ho on the duratec engine. I believe that it is physically bigger than the zetec but a bit lighter due to it being all aluminum. I'm just not sure if I will be able to put an iron block engine into a car that is designed to be as light as possible. However, the zetec should have a slightly lower center of gravity compared to the duratec due to most of the weight being down low in the block. You win some and you lose some I guess. I could even go rotary since I believe I read about a 12A powered Europa (but frequent rebuilds...). I'm still open to 4AGE or zetec + NG3 transaxle and maybe (hopefully) I'll make up my mind by the time I graduate.
I don't plan on making the Europa a dedicated track car. I will to take it to HPDE's and maybe some autocrosses but it will spend most of its time on the roads so no straight cut gears for me. But, I think I would enjoy building a Europa quite a bit. My only fear is breaking something that I put money into because I have never done anything as in depth as an engine swap before. I guess I'll have to lurk around here for a while and look at all of your builds! :)
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welcome to the board.
BDA gives some good info.
I'm in the early stages of swapping a zetec/NG3 combo into my TCS.
It is going to be a bit of a effort, and time consuming.
There are others that have used the VW or Porsche 914 transaxles.
It's my understanding they will handle V8's...
Enjoy the ride!!!
andyh
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Good luck with your studies!
I once saw a twin turbo rotary powered Europa. It was pretty wild. It wasn't my style but it was interesting.
I think you have to decide how adventurous you want to be and how much money you want to spend. IMHO, the Zetec might be the best swap. The motors can be had pretty cheaply, they have a lot of potential for mods, they are pretty commonly done - well understood, and could need fewer specialized parts since it will bolt up to a TC bell housing. The 4AGE is done some, but not as much and it requires more work. I have a BDA (thus the moniker) which was pretty simple since it probably required the least mods to install since it uses a Kent block. Basically, the further away you get from a Kent block, the more you will need to do to fit it. Lurking here and on the yahoo group is a good start. Richard has done a lot of interesting swaps and he might have some interesting things to say. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say he probably knows more about Europas than anyone. He's also a really nice guy.
As I say, the car itself is pretty simple so it's not difficult to build. The fiberglass body makes it pretty easy to customize. As a car, they're pretty much a blank slate, which makes it fun.
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Welcome ICSNO.
I have had the same thoughts as you on the Duratec. If you check out my intro thread you will see some of the parts I have sourced so far. I have a 2.0L Duratec and a 2002 Passat transaxle (the Passat was a north south front wheel drive for about 5 years as it was based on TH A4 platform for that generation). I managed to find a guy out of England who makes an adapter and custom flywheel that mounts to the Duratec and uses the VW clutch.
Good luck sourcing bits and from what I have seen 200 HP is achievable with the Duratec with headers/intake (itb's)/tune
Ross
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I can tell you for sure that the VW type 1 transaxle will not handle the torque of the Duratec. I went through transaxles like they were beer when I had my VW autocross car with 150HP. I ended up with a Webster gearbox which is basically the same as the Hewland and that was fine.
Paul
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Just to add a thought into the transaxle debate. Has anyone used an esprit transaxle? The later ones would certainly handle the power
Dave
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I am not using the type 1 it is the VAG that they use behind the 1.8T and some TDI diesels. The diesel's have the best ratios but weren't sold in North America. From what I can tell the ratios in the one I have will work and should handle the Duratec torque.
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:Welcome: welcome ICSNO :lotus:
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:Welcome: Welcome to the forum ICSNO.
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Thanks for all of the welcomes and advice!
I think my eventual drivetrain will come down to who makes adapters and what is the lightest. It looks like I can use the duratec with the VAG 012 transaxle (not the VW type 1) or a Porsche transaxle. There's a website called Kennedy Engineering (http://www.kennedyenginc.com/Pages/default.aspx) that offers Porsche (and VW bug/bus) adapters for pretty much any four cylinder you'd like. It's quite a nice page and from here on out I'll have to see what combinations are the lightest for a good power level. I also quite like engines that have the ability to rev out quite a bit so that will factor in as well. I wonder if a Duratec/Porsche or Duratec/VAG 012 is lighter than a Zetec/NG3. It's a good thing I have a long time to make a decision!
Thanks all again for the warm welcome. :)
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Reading this reminded me of one or our members who had his car built by Fosse on Overhaulin (second episode - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AGknF9L-O8). Fosse used a Porsche Boxster tranny in his car which is powered by a supercharged Elise motor.
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There are a couple of threads on the yh board about Toyota - zetec engine and other component weights, and one lister is having conversion parts fabbed up for the Toyota-NG3 conversion, might be worth a look.
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Regarding Esprit transaxles , they would work out well except they are rare, expensive, and in considerable demand from Esprit owners. I have a slightly damaged Esprit frame from a friends car that ran off the road and bent the front x member. The whole firewall back of a s-3 or newer Esprit would be ideal for an Europa but at least around here very costly.
Greg
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Yes esprits are starting to get expensive over here., but did see some boxes on the market for 100,s pounds not 1,000,s and thought parts might be easier to get hold of. and an option for engine upgrades to handle the power