Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Blitzen on Tuesday,April 18, 2023, 06:55:48 AM
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So my Twin Cam engine has been sitting dry for over a decade as procrastinated over the bodywork and other details. I'm finally close to dropping the body back on but now I'm wondering about the motor. Supposedly the water pumps are notorious on these motors and I'd hate button everything up and find I need to replace the pump. Am I worried abut nothing and leave it as is, or should I just install a modular pump now and refresh the top end while I'm at it. :confused: All suggestions and comment welcomed.
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You're in Alberta, myself as well, where the climate is dry so spontaneous corrosion is not the issue it is elsewhere. I have taken apart cars left outdoors for twenty years with minimal issues.
Questions:
1) How was it running when you last had it on the road?
2) How many miles/kilometres since the head was last looked at?
3) Right now, does the water pump turn freely? Not completely free, there should be a light drag.
4) Was the engine stored with old oil still in it?
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To piggy back on this discussion, what is a good method for turning over long dormant motors by hand. I have two TC engines. One was an Elan Plus 2 stored outdoors under a car cover for over two winters here in SoCal. It was only suppose to be outside for less than a year but unfortunately the time got extended. The second TC motor in a Europa was stored outdoors under a portable car port exposed to some moisture for at least ten years.
Should I spray/pour some light oil in the cylinders before attempting to rotate the engine?
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Absolutely oil the cylinders, and let it sit at least overnight.
I once freed a stuck Jag XK-120 engine that sat outdoors but in the car for over twenty years.
I mixed Diesel and Marvel Mystery Oil then let it sit in the cylinders for three days.
Put the car in gear and rocked it forward and back.
Once it began to move I used a siphon gun to remove as much of the mix as possible.
On the fourth day I was able to drive the car around the block, no brakes, and still with major body damage, but I drove it. The joys of youth. ;)
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You're in Alberta, myself as well, where the climate is dry so spontaneous corrosion is not the issue it is elsewhere. I have taken apart cars left outdoors for twenty years with minimal issues.
Questions:
1) How was it running when you last had it on the road?
2) How many miles/kilometres since the head was last looked at?
3) Right now, does the water pump turn freely? Not completely free, there should be a light drag.
4) Was the engine stored with old oil still in it?
I'm not so concerned about corrosions or seizure of the engine itself so much as the water pump, but
1) it was running okay when it last on the road. But I had very limited time (under 100 miles) before I took it off the road.
2) No idea when any engine work was done.
3) I have not actually tried. I will remove the belt and try.
4) It was stored with oil (not old at that time but old now) but never turned over.
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So, a bit of a pig in poke. I would remove the sump and the cam cover. Check the valve clearances, timing chain wear (adjuster extended), and one main bearing and one rod bearing. Also, when the belt is off, wiggle the water pump pulley for axial and radial play. If it is all good, then button it back up, cross your fingers and hope for the best.
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G-Buns:
Rotate the engine by hand? Sure, a few squirts of oil in each cylinder and give it a go.
Crank the engine over? Same again but also, leave the plugs out, oil FULL, crank in 10 second bursts until you get oil pressure. No oil pressure after 4 tries? You need to STOP and prime the oil pump. Pull off the pump cover and pack the gears/vanes with vasoline/petroleum jelly.
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I was/am in the same situation as you are; my 73 TCS had sat for 10+ years before I bought it. I drove it only a few miles as I was intending a full restoration. Life and other stuff got in the way and I let it sit for another 10+ years. Because of registration/title issue i didn't attempt to drive it during this time. The car was represented by the seller as having a "recently rebuilt" engine but no paperwork to back that up so I could not be sure of the condition. I fired it up periodically then retreated to turning it over by hand.
Fast forward to 2 years ago when I decided it was time to either sell it (not likely because of a title/registration issue now solved) or actually start to work on it. I actively kept up with several web boards to increase my knowledge of the car and try to determine a way forward. Like you, I had read of the dreaded water pump and figured the extended period of non-running didn't bode well for the water pump seals. I also had the great fortune to meet and begin a relationship with Grumblebums (Joji) and a now-gone former board member Whit Davis. These guys were invaluable in hashing thru my sometimes crazy ideas of how to proceed. Fortunately, since I retired in 2014, time was on my side and I wasn't in any rush.
So, this is what I decided to do:
1. Accepting my mechanical limitations, I decided that removing the engine/transaxle was not that difficult and I could then find someone who could evaluate what condition it was in. This also assumed this "someone" could repair/replace whatever was needed (including the water pump). I'm budgeting between $4,000 - $8,000. for this. My engine is now at the rebuilder, along with some new parts I figured it would need.
2. With the engine out, I felt comfortable in attacking the rest of the car. So far I have replaced the radiator, all hoses, coolant transfer piping, seatbelts, front brake calipers, front suspension bushings, two front suspension arms, Anti roll bar, front shocks/springs, rear suspension bushings, rear shocks/springs, rear brake shoes/wheel cylinders, rear lower control arms, removed the original boosters, replaced the original MC with a NOS S2 MC, re-plumbed the brake piping, new shifter ball joint, shifter bushings and probably 20 other things. All of this was time consuming but not too difficult.
I realize not all the stuff I've done will work perfectly the first time I try to drive it but I've factored in testing time to chase down all the bugs.
My goal is to have a mechanically sound car to fool around with. At this point I'm not real concerned about appearance (the paint is terrible but no body damage) and I will likely tackle the interior after I get it running.
Like most older/classic car purchases, I probably would have been better off buying a car that had already been restored and that could have been registered but if I was that smart I wouldn't have considered a Lotus (although I did have a 1969 Type 54 S2 I drove for 5 years).
The above is just one data point on how I'm dealing with an almost 50 year old British sports car.
Larry Mullen
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Thanks, I'll follow John's advice.
Larry, thanks for sharing. Sounds like you are making good progress with better plan than mine. Probably because I lacked a plan. Mine started out a a minor refresh of a few items that turned into full blown strip down and resto. I should have done it stages instead. 20/20 hindsight. C'est la vie.
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With your rebuilt engine soon to be completed (fingers crossed), consider starting a build history of your TC as some of us have done. You've already done a lot of work and documenting the progress will make interesting reading.
Joji
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With your rebuilt engine soon to be completed (fingers crossed), consider starting a build history of your TC as some of us have done. You've already done a lot of work and documenting the progress will make interesting reading.
Joji
Good idea...been there, done that, got the dirty t-shirt. Admittedly not being as vocal about 3291R. Call is writer's fatigue...;)
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If the waterpump has lots of drag does that mean it is bad? By hand I can only turn it less than 1/4 revolution at a time.
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I can't say I've tried to rotate a pump that's seen service by hand, but have done when rebuilding. Then there's a small resistance from the mechanical seal and it's certainly not going to spin but it is easy to turn.
Something that's very stiff would concern me, can you see any signs of rusty water from previous leaks ? There was a thread recently showing the bleed hole where the tell tale signs are shown;
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=5650.msg62230#msg62230 (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=5650.msg62230#msg62230)
On the positive side, it might just be stiff from standing idle, especially if the coolant has been drained. If you can rig something up to add coolant to the block and it suddenly frees off with no signs of leaks then ok, it's worth a chance.
Personally though, if the engine history is unknown and it's already out of the car then I would take off the head, inspect the bores (probably the bottom end as well) and replace the pump with a standard overhaul kit. It's a much harder job to do if the engine is in the car.
Brian
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My tcs sat for 3 years. I restored the entire car but I thought the engine was fine.
It was about 2 weeks of joy. Then the drip drip came from the water pump which got worse over time.
I have owned the car since 1986. In that time, I have replaced he water pump twice. After this episode, I was not going to mess with that pump again, and fitted an electric pump, which can be replaced without pulling the engine.
So, in my opinion, if you suspect you have a bad pump, fix it. I think after sitting for a long time, the seal sticks and and when starting, the seal spins in the housing instead of the ceramic seal.
My two cents worth.
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The fact the water pump is stiff to turn is not good. Slight drag? Sure. I would pull it down and rebuild the pump. A pain, yes. But a lot less pain than doin it in the car.
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Thanks everyone, I'm biting the bullet. I've order the Bean modular pump kit. Will pull the head this weekend.
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So, a bit of a pig in poke. I would remove the sump and the cam cover. Check the valve clearances, timing chain wear (adjuster extended), and one main bearing and one rod bearing. Also, when the belt is off, wiggle the water pump pulley for axial and radial play. If it is all good, then button it back up, cross your fingers and hope for the best.
John, do you know of any shops that could rebuild my head, preferably in Calgary?
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We used to have a couple of machine shops that had experience on Lotus TC heads. Not any more. The techs got old and passed on. I'm not familiar with Calgary's scene. Check with local vintage racers. Do you still have a track?
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Rocky Mountain Motorsport opened recently but not sure how much vintage racing activity there is.