Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: BDA on Monday,June 13, 2022, 10:18:24 AM
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I was checking out my rear suspension yesterday and was alarmed at the amount of play in my driver's side hub. Clearly, at the least the bearings are completely shot. The other side is fine. I don't know the actual mileage but I don't see how it could be more than 20,000 miles since I first put it on the road.
I thought that was pretty light mileage for rear bearings on a TCS. I also have a twin link rear suspension so I figured that would likely enhance the life of those bearings. I mentioned this to EuropaTC and he said he expects them to last about 20,000 miles max so he changes them every two years (at 8-9K/yr driving rate).
Several years ago I posted this story about a guy who had at that time put 250,000 miles on his S1 (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1386.msg12251#msg12251). It's a funny story and worth reading if you need a chuckle, and who doesn't now a days? Anyway, one theme throughout the story is his constantly changing rear bearings. I had read that the TCs had fixed that problem. Well, rereading the story, I was reminded that he was only getting 10,000 miles on his bearings so if I got 20,000 miles, I was actually getting double the life of S1 bearings!
So my question to you who have put mileage on your car is how long do your rear bearings last, which model do you have, do you have anything on your car that might affect the life of your bearings like a twin link, etc., and are you aware of any tips that could prolong the life of those bearings?
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BDA...
I'd say 15k-25k would be the replacement range for a stock TCS...
Both cars, Vic's 3522 & my 3307R were replaced during their restorations. The logic behind changing the bearings was out of normal caution, not knowing the true mileage especially on Vic's lack of prior service documentation.
Yes, it is a weak spot on the Europa...and, there are things to consider.
The quality of the bearings...SKF & Timken are reliable and well made...always use the hardened spacers, and examine the innards of the carriers for wear or defects.
Finally, if done right...assembly...don't take any shortcuts. Use fresh hard wear, after installation and run in, re torque and go easy with the lock-tight...for the next time you have to take it apart.
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I thought that was pretty light mileage for rear bearings on a TCS. I also have a twin link rear suspension so I figured that would likely enhance the life of those bearings. I mentioned this to EuropaTC and he said he expects them to last about 20,000 miles max so he changes them every two years (at 8-9K/yr driving rate).
Just to add a bit more for the forum, the 8-9,000 miles was in the days when I used my Europa daily. These days I do nothing like that annual mileage and what I do drive is generally in good weather. Back then I'd drive it through winter and we had lots of ice, snow and regularly salted roads in Yorkshire from November-February.
The original (& first) owner of my car changed them at 20k and that would be a new car out of the factory. Incidentally the worst lifetime I had was just under 5k which I only found by chance when doing something else. With hindsight I suspected either installer error (me) or maybe I just had picked up some poor quality bearings, but one side didn't even make the first year.
I think Tim Engel wrote about rear bearings on the old Yahoo group but can't find it just now. I seem to recall he had a regular change interval as well.
Brian
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When I bought an S2 new at the factory 1970 I got at least 20,000 miles on it before selling it in 1974. I think one factor most of us discount is hub carrier wear. That one factor allows the entire assembly to accelerate bearing and stub axle wear. How many of us have either bought new hub carriers or sleeved them? The other weakness is the stub axle itself. I've gone thru more axles due to journal wear at the outer bearing than the bearings themselves. Upgraded stub axles like PA Motorsports sell would probably eliminate this problem.
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Funny you should ask. I’m redoing my rear hubs yet again. Experiment and learn.
The stock system lasted 5K or so but that was with used parts and new bearings. I then sleeved a set of carriers and fit a custom system from an old open wheel racer. Lots of extra work and cash to get it working. It’s Achilles heel? No room for an inner seal. I drive in all weathers and it took about 10k for it to wash out the inner bearing and develop play. I should have known this would be an issue as the factory didn’t use inner seals either at first.
Then, the custom machining was off and the press fit too tight and I broke one of the sleeved uprights. I had to take off the whole radius arm. It then proceeded to break a 12 ton press! Finally got it apart though.
Now I have new uprights, bearings, inner seals and yet another axle set up. We’ll see how it works. I’ll report on it (with pictures) when I install it all.
Recommend that you repack the new bearings with good quality wheel bearing grease before install.
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PS: I haven’t been in a bar or chased a wild woman in a very, very long time. Holy? No. Just own a Europa!
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I just did an axel overhaul last summer. My Special has 53,000 miles on it, 23,000 of which I put on. At the time I had no idea if when, or if, my axels were last done. I saw that they had been done in the past, but no idea when. All I know for sure is I had put 23,000 on it, and when I disassembled I was surprised to find the bearings in very good condition.
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I know this whole thing is in my future...and I'm NOT looking forward to doing it. Right now, you can hear the bearings at speed...a low moaning from the rear. Jacked up the back, and tried wiggling the wheels..but nothing out of sorts. Car has over 54K on the clock (if that's even right...), and there is nothing in the 2" thick binder of repair invoices to even suggest that it's been done before.
Might as well do the fronts at the same time, right?
First thing, though, is get to the oil leaks. While the engine is out...can work on the suspension and bearings when I need a break from the engine or clutch issues.
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Thanks, everyone, for your input. My takeaway is that unless you're going to make substantial changes to the design (or materials), the only thing to do is use quality parts and assemble carefully and live with it. I don't think I have to worry about hardened spacers, first because my twin link eliminates the lateral loads on the bearings and second because I got mine from Richard and though I didn't ask him if they were hardened, I have no doubt that they are. As for greasing the bearings, the bearings I put in the upright were completely sealed so I don't have to worry about that either. That being said, I'll inspect everything as best I can anyway.
Speaking about design changes, I really like the idea of using VW stub axles, CV joints, and half shafts. Our own Jmarkusic did a write up about his and previous member, Andy Harwood's, conversion here (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4782.0). Then there are a couple of alternatives for the stock stub axle - Swift mentioned one and I know JB used another one. That would solve the weakness of the Hilman Imp stub axles but doesn't do much for the bearing issue. With all the great upgrades Ricard (at Banks) has done, I'm a bit surprised that he or somebody similarly cleaver hasn't addressed that. Changing the rear bearings every 20,000 miles (or longer if you Bainford (!)) is not my idea of fun! A redesigned upright with beefier bearings would be welcome in my view. All that is nice but for me it's academic since something like that is not in the budget right now (but then changing the bearings wasn't anticipated either!).
I don't remember our making much about rear bearings in the past (but then the mind dulls with age) so I think it should be a lesson to everybody to check them frequently. To Bryan's point about front bearings, does anybody have any suggestions about them? They come off the Spitfire. I never new of any longevity issues with them on Spitfires or Europas either but then I hadn't heard about the rear bearing issues.
I went to look at the Jensen racing manual and issues with the rear bearings were not mentioned but then they would put very few miles on them and as hard as those miles were, it apparently was never an issue with them.
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An upgraded hub carrier with bigger bearings would be a definite plus. The Jensen Racing Europa did change stub axles every 2 races and probably bearings too. Typically SCCA Nationals meant about 150 miles each race weekend. Running 11" wide racing slicks they must have known the weaknesses of the entire assembly.
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Good point, Swift. If they change stub axles, they probably would change bearings while they were at it. Since they didn't mention it, I had assumed that they didn't.
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Not only Spitfires, TR6s use the same front wheel bearings as well. You could hardly call them over-specified, but they seem to work just fine.
Richard would have supplied hardened spacers. The originals were seam-welded, thin-wall pipe; pretty much just exhaust pipe. The workshop manual says new ones are to be fitted every time the hubs are apart. Any time a hub nut “loosens”, it’s the spacers collapsing. Bin the originals and fit hardened ones.
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The axles themselves are not very strong. Worse is the fact that the hub is spaced further out to suit the rear brakes. That means the outer bearing partially sits on the splines for the hub. This is why they changed the workshop manual to include using special lo title, to try and prevent any movement and fretting of the axle splines.
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Just another reminder, if one was needed, how Lotus made this car on the cheap. (excuse my cynicism, I'm having a hard time getting my hub off the half shaft even with heat!).
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Considering there are probably more Europas than Hillman Imps still running now why aren't new stub axles machined with shorter splines so that the outer bearing has full journal support?
Also TC axles wouldn't fit an Imp anyway so why not a full journal?
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Several months ago, I saw that Lotus Supplies seemed to be selling new Genuine Lotus stub axles (https://www.lotus-supplies.com/parts/suspension/rear-corners/outboard-shaft-lotus-tc/). I asked Andy Graham if they had been upgraded from the Imp part and he essentially said that they were obsoleted in 2000 (actually, I had gotten confused and referenced the stub axle for 336 gear box but I assume they've all been obsoleted). I guess the "Lotus" designation on the part description does not actually mean from Lotus?
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Pretty much anything we buy for our Europas these days is not OEM but reproduced. Smiths, Lucas and all the other OEM suppliers are not the same companies that existed then. As we all know, some of this stuff is good and some crap.
You say that there can’t be that many Imps left. Well there were a number of derivatives, and they were sold all over the world, so I expect there actually are quite a few left compared to Europa numbers. Not that I find it a relief that rear axles made of Swiss cheese will continue to be readily available….
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I guess we have to take our good news where and how we can!
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You say that there can’t be that many Imps left. Well there were a number of derivatives, and they were sold all over the world, so I expect there actually are quite a few left compared to Europa numbers. Not that I find it a relief that rear axles made of Swiss cheese will continue to be readily available….
You're right on that John, or at least inside the UK. There's a website "How Many Left ?" which tracks older cars which are either road registered or "SORN" which means they notified as "Statutory Off Road Notice" - basically in someone's garage or maybe a race car that could be road legal.
Hillman Imps - roughly 1300 - https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/hillman_imp (https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/hillman_imp)
Lotus Europa - less than half that - https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/lotus_europa (https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/lotus_europa)
Granted there were probably more Lotus exported around the globe than Hillman Imps, but for someone looking to make a serious investment in tooling or stock levels, the Europa picture and potential market isn't encouraging. The suppliers we still have really do deserve supporting.
Brian
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I just checked my service record, and I rebuilt the rear hubs in 1986. It is now 35000 miles later and still going strong. I hope it lasts, because I remember it is a true pia. Also, I never replaced the bearing spacer with a hardened one. I don't think that was a thing in 1986. I just followed the manual. I am lucky I guess.
I have never driven in snow or mud and very little rain. I can only imagine that is what wears out what appears to be very large bearings.
Btw, has anyone put zerk fittings in the carrier to grease the bearings?
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CW put grease zerks in the rear housings on TCST and it looks like the original bearings made it 40,119 miles.
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That's what I will do if there is a next time I need new bearings.
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Well, I started taking it all apart. The side that had the bad bearings wouldn't come off at all. I started using a propane torch and went up to a map gas torch. I was using my buddy's heavy duty impact wrench (he claims it produces 450 ft-lbs) but I was using cheap pullers so it could be that I lunched the puller before I got the hub to move.
I was able to get the hub off the other (good) side. I had a bigger puller but it was cheap too and I lunched it but it got the hub off enough to get the rest off the way off by walking it off with a hammer.
The Loctite I used is what I got from r.d. many years ago. I'm wondering if whatever Ray sold me might be stronger and/or more heat resistant than I might want. If I use Loctite 635 (assuming that is not what Ray sold me), can I expect similar trouble taking it apart again (since the hope is that I put more than another 20,000 miles on the car before I die!
Looking ahead, should I need it, which Loctite should I use on the bearings in the upright?
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CW put grease zerks in the rear housings on TCST and it looks like the original bearings made it 40,119 miles.
I remember both of my bearings were sealed so a zerk wouldn't help me but otherwise a great idea. There's a lot of volume in the upright. You should reduce that volume with something like foam first.
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Seals on the outside of the bearings would work with grease in between. It seems that the dust shields can be removed on some bearings. Maybe that is an option if the bearings have dust shields inside and out.
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You can remove the rubber seal on one side, easy peasy. There are a couple of problems:
- the upright is hollow. You would need to limit the space into which the grease is injected and it would have to be pretty strong as pressurized grease exerts a fair amount of force.
- pressurized grease could pop off the outer seals leaving you in a worse situation.
A better way forward is to fit an outer seal like the inner seal and use open bearings. Open bearings have a much taller face to the inner race which would make the connection to the two bearing/spacers and axle much more firm.
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My housings were completely filled with grease ….was fun to clean out…you can buy bearings with seal on just one side….
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Current bearing upgrade I am tinkering with....30206 tapered bearing has same ID and OD as the original Twin Cam bearings, they are about .049" thicker, clearance to be set by spacer length. 3D printed seal holder will be held in by backing plate, double-x o-ring will seal on hub OD and side of bearing (I eliminated spacer for full spline engagement....)
I am also attempting to use gear oil as the housing will hold about 8 ounces and oil lubricated bearings have a higher speed rating and longer service life.
(Original bearing just shown for comparison.)
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What are you printing the seal holder in, and can it take the heat. Or is it a model to get dimensions, then you’ll machine the final holder?
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Turbo,
Given the trailing arm retains the outer bearing in the upright and the 30206 tapered bearing is .049" thicker, will that work?
Also, the inner bearing kinda floats and the axle assembly as a whole relies on the fixed location of the outer bearing to prevent axial movement.
Are you looking to use an opposing tapered bearing on the inside as well?
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Yes Gavin, a set of opposed taper bearings. The .049 difference will move the housing out that amount but I will lengthen the lower control arm that amount, I can adjust the thickness of the hub/drum spacer my son made to account for the outside difference. The housing depths could be machined to account for the difference but I don’t want to do that.
Kendo,
The plastic prints at 572 degrees so I will give it a try, if it does not handle it I will get aluminum ones made (I really need a lathe……)
Typical transmission and differentials only run in the 150-200 degree range and most of the heat comes from the helical bearing
surfaces "sliding" over each other as they mesh...so the hub bearings should run cooler than this...
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I wasn’t going to post anything until I had it all complete but thought I would mention it since it came up ….
If you search for “S2hubconversion” this is where I got the inspiration to try this…he says he has run the same set of bearings for 25 years…..
JB..thanks for posting the link.....above
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https://www.lotuseuropa.org/S2HubConversion.htm
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Has anyone tried a double row inner ball bearing ? 3006 2RS is 55 x 30 x 19 mm. I bought a pair, but never machined the axle shoulder for the extra width. Being that it's a double row bearing and 19mm wide vs 13mm on the standard bearing it should be appreciably stronger.
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I was thinking about just that sort of solution. With the radius arm attachment to the upright, we're restricted in how large in diameter the bearing can be but there is room for longer bearings. I'll bet you could call up a bearing mfg.'s tech support line and get some guidance. To my knowledge, VWs and Porsches don't have a longevity problem with rear wheel bearings. Since they have about the same ID, I wonder how much bigger their OD is. MAYBE our upright could be adapted to use them?
I'm sure I'm not the first to think of any of this so I will commit to calling Richard (I'll try for tomorrow) and ask him what he can tell me. I'll report back
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I just calculated the theoretical life (via online calculator) for one tcs rear bearing.
I roughed it out. 1000 lb load and 100 mph. The 90% reliability calculated as 1129 hours.
I think the average load would be significantly less. The peak load during cornering may be close to that. However, the axial load I think would be taken up by the two bearings.
Anyway, I don't think we will average 100mph over 1129 hours.
So, it seems to me, ideally the bearing size is fine. Lubrication and tolerancing may be the cause of premature failure. I know if the spacer was too short or the housing was machined incorrectly, the bearings would definitely fail prematurely.
This discussion has been great and I hope the issue gets solved.
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Tapered bearings can be set up to run with preload or clearance so I think they will be a lot more tolerant of assembly issues...
The front bearings on my '95 F150 have 232K miles on them with very minimal maintenance....half that should be doable on a car that weighs a fraction of what it does.....
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Tapered bearings lubed with grease need a slight amount of free play, just a couple of thou. Preloaded tapered bearings make heat and need at least splash oil lubrication to keep them lubed and cool. Grease will just flow away.
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I've forgotten most of what I ever knew about bearings from school but I suspect that a significant (but no idea how significant) factor might be shock loads when you hit a bump. I wonder if that is accounted for in their calculation.
Certainly there appears to be wide variations with the life of rear wheel bearings. Other than expected wear, I'm at a loss to explain how mine went out so quickly mileage wise. With a twin link, there is almost no lateral loading. I had sealed bearings and IIRC, I used good brand, I think SKF. I had a hardened spacer (though I believe hardened spacers are less important with a twin link). At most I do spirited street driving - no autocross or tracking. Maybe something will show itself when I finally get it all apart but otherwise, it seems like something I should expect going forward.
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I didn't mean I would preload them in a car, (not intentionally anyway :o) when I rebuilt industrial equipment, preload was set by running torque, of course these bearings had spray lubrication...just saying they will handle a wider range of assembly procedures and loads than a standard roller bearing.
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Thanks Turbo & JB,
I've seen that link before yonks ago but obviously didn't read it thoroughly - ooops.
I've usually been less enthusiastic re the 2 x tapered bearing idea because for a S2, that would mean adding metal to the upright and the associated re-machining - all that hassle.
What I didn't see was there's an option for 55mm inner bearing cups . . hmmm . . maybe that's worth revisiting.
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[...] To my knowledge, VWs and Porsches don't have a longevity problem with rear wheel bearings. Since they have about the same ID, I wonder how much bigger their OD is. MAYBE our upright could be adapted to use them?
I'm sure I'm not the first to think of any of this so I will commit to calling Richard (I'll try for tomorrow) and ask him what he can tell me. I'll report back
Yeah.
I've looked at the Datsun 1600/510 rear axles mainly because they have the wheel hub integral with the axle and the retaining nut on the inside end.
The Datsun uses 2 x 6206 bearings just like the TCS but with a more substantial spacer and in a steel housing (semi trailing arm). The spacer is within a poofteenth of the Lotus one in terms of length, so the bearing spacings are nearly identical. The Datsun, however, uses sliding half-shafts so the load paths are different. The torque spec for the axle retaining nut is 181 to 239 ft-lb. The Datsun manual recommends to replace the wheel bearing grease every 50,000km (30,000miles), so that tells us something.
Would I be right in thinking the TCS with it's larger inner bearing fairs better in terms of bearing life than a S2?
My impression (and that's all it is) is that shortish bearing life is perhaps associated with the relatively light (in terms of sturdiness) alloy upright as much as anything else. That, and the axle nut torque on a cheddar cheese axle being somewhat modest, which, even then, is probably more than the stock spacers can handle. Not to even mention the overhanging hub . . . so likely a combination of many things.
And, of course, we're latterly led to believe by the factory that Loctite on splines is the answer to a maiden's prayer. Seriously?
See . . . there's a question. How many similar axle arrangements (Datsun, VW, BMW etc.) specify Loctite for assembly?
I've sometimes toyed with the idea that pressing a 5mm wall thickness steel sleeve through the whole upright and building up alloy where necessary might just solve a lot of issues. Too drastic?
Pardon my rant . . thoughts?
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Yes, the TCS is said to have a longer bearing life.
There are a number of factors to Europa rear axle issues:
- poor material choice for the axle
- mild steel spacers
- bearings with 2 rubber seals (less contact area for the spacers)
- outer bearing seating partially on the splines
- undersized inner bearing
- mild steel lock tabs
- poor repair practice (driving out the bearings crooked wearing and ovalizing the housing
Any one, two or three might be ok but all of them together is not good.
The housing itself is ok; a little light duty, true. It’s poor repair techniques that take out the housings.
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Swift,
That bearing looks nice, is there enough material at shaft shoulder or in the housing to account for a 6mm difference?
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Yes there's enough space in the housing to fit that bearing. As far as removing 6mm of the shoulder end of the stub axle there is also enough material on the 'step'. I'm not an engineer, so I don't know if that might weaken the shaft. However looking at a TC axle compared to S1/2 there is less 'step' material on a TC.
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I know from my days of rebuilding high speed industrial manufacturing equipment that simply dropping a roller bearing could damage it……I would imagine an impact from a pothole could do the same…a roller in a tapered bearing has a much larger contact area than the ball in a roller bearing and should handle impacts much better.
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Any progress getting this fixed on your car BDA?
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Sorry, I've been quiet on this lately. Here's an update (please excuse me if I repeat anything):
I was finally able to take both hubs off but it was not easy or pleasant. I tried A LOT of heat with a good impact wrench and a good puller I borrowed from a parts store. That did not get much movement. It wasn't till I started beating the back of the hub with a hammer and walking it off the stub axle that I was finally able to get the hubs off. I find it offensive to take apart a apart of a car with a hammer but there was no other way. I almost lunched the borrowed puller which was a good one with hardened parts (even after greasing the threads with moly grease!)! Thankfully the inner side of the hubs don't show!
I could easily wobble the stub axle in the upright of the driver's side (the bad side) and assumed it was a problem with the outer bearing. Unfortunately, I didn't look closely at the inner bearing. When started taking it apart, a few hits with a dead blow hammer got about 1/3 of the stub axle out. The rest was not coming. I tried using the puller to push it out but it just got cocked on the inner bearing somehow so I gave it to a nearby shop to complete the disassembly for me. When I got it back, the inner bearing was really lunched by my efforts (and maybe the shop's too) so I have a limited amount of useful evidence there. I gave the shop the passenger side radius arm and upright to disassemble after my troubles with the driver's side! When I got the driver's side pieces back from the shop, I measured the ID of the inner race of the outer bearing and it was NOT smaller than the bearing seat on the stub axle as I expected! I wonder if the bearing was seated on the "pad" on the stub axle. I'll do some measurements but I don't know what I could possibly find since I'm using standard uprights, stub axles, and Richard's bearing spacers. Maybe there was something wrong with the inner bearing. It's pretty messed up but maybe there will be a number I can read and make sure that I at least installed the proper bearings.
There is some history that makes my issue a little unique. I have a TCS but as I remember Richard traded my TCS radius arm and uprights for TC parts because at the time he hadn't developed his twin l ink and rear disc kits for the TCS. I don't remember who installed whose bearings. I THINK I installed my bearings but the TC inner bearing is different from the TCS inner bearing so that may not be right. I know the stub axles are the one from my TCS.
I'm going to do some more measurements when I have things further apart as well as check for which bearings I had been using. I'll report on that when I know more.
I promised to call Richard and ask him about the life of bearings and any suggestions he might have and I actually did but I only got voice mail. I'll try again.
I've been discussing this offline with EuropaTC and he corrected himself about his experience saying that when he replaced the bearings every two years (less than 20,000 miles), he had to deal with a lot of snow and salt , etc. which took a toll on his car. He suspects that the bearing life is a lot better than he worried about. I'm coming to that conclusion too but I'm withholding my final assessment till after I learn more about my inner bearing.
When I started this, I decided that I would replace all the rear wheel bearings at once. I have a road trip to the LOG in West Virginia later this year and didn't want to be stuck on the side of the highway. I think if I have to deal with this again, I'll only do the side that is having trouble. It has been way too much trouble and way too painful to take these hubs off to do it when it's not necessary yet.
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That sounds like no fun!
When I pulled mine I put tension on the puller, heated the hub, then wack the end of the bolt on the puller with a hammer to “shock” it and the hub would move slightly, repeat a couple of times and then you could just continue to tighten the puller bolt until the hub came off.
By hitting the bolt on the puller you are hitting in line with the axle and the hub comes off straight
with no side loads…..does that make sense?
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Yes, that make sense. That sounds like a good technique that might have helped me.
In contrast, my technique was to use map-gas, which burns hotter than propane, heating up the hub from behind while turning it. After a few turns, hit the puller with the impact wrench. I have a small compressor (I lost my bigger one when my wife wanted to "remodel" the garage. :( ) so the wrench would run for a minute or two and then the compressor needed to catch up. While the compressor was catching up, I heated the hub again till the compressor caught up. Rinse and Repeat. I probably went through a dozen cycles of that. That hub was really hot when I finally got it off so heat wasn't the problem. If I have to do it again, I'll either give it to someone else to do or try your technique.
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Is the hub carrier on the bad side worn in the area of the inner bearing (loose fit) ?
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Turbo Fource's method is good but remember to keep the nut on. Otherwise the threaded end will swell and peen over with the blows.
BDA, do them both at the same time. Otherwise you fix one and then, very few miles later, the other fails.
The best puller for the job is a "top-hat" shaped puller like this:
https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-RX1542
As a matter of fact, this puller will work on Europas. Much less flex that with the arm-type pullers. I have actually seen TR6 rear hubs that bent when trying to remove them with an arm-type puller.
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It gets curiouser and curiouser. I just took the (superfluous) grease seal off the back of the inside of the upright and the bearing fell out! The bore for the bearing appeared to be in good shape - there was no obvious beat up places and from my simple dial caliper, it appeared to be pretty round. It looks like there could have been some bearing seating compound uses as there is some crusty stuff at the bottom of the bearing bore. The bearing seemed ok. When turning it, it is a little tighter than the outer bearing but there are no rough spots on either bearing. It would not simply go back into the bore and thus would likely require that the upright be heated with hot water to insert the bearings as the manual instructs. There is no obvious distress in the bore for the grease seal so I think it came out during the efforts to get the stub axle out. The IDs of both bearings are the same (~ 1.180) and the bearing surfaces on the stub axle are about the same. So I think the answer to your question is no, there doesn't appear to be a loose fit but I'm measuring everything with dial calipers so my measurements could be off a thou or two.
There are no markings on the inner bearing. I haven't gotten the outer bearing out of the upright yet but so far, I don't see any identifying marks.
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JB, thanks for the tips and the puller.
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[...] The housing depths could be machined to account for the difference but I don’t want to do that.
Yes, but I was more thinking that the ears of the trailing arm kinda stop the outer bearing from moving axially and now there'll be a .049" protrusion.
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Has anyone tried a double row inner ball bearing ? 3006 2RS is 55 x 30 x 19 mm. I bought a pair, but never machined the axle shoulder for the extra width. Being that it's a double row bearing and 19mm wide vs 13mm on the standard bearing it should be appreciably stronger.
David A said he used a dual-row inner bearing but he can't remember the bearing ID – presumably it's a 3006 2RS. (link below)
I'll wait for the resident engineers to comment on whether "angular contact" makes a difference in this application.
Perhaps of more interest is David A's take on his replacement rear stub axles.
He uses a custom made splined & threaded shaft with off the shelf U-joint yokes and wheel hubs.
All custom machining is expensive which is often reflected by the set-up costs associated with limited runs but it seems possible that an axle alone would be somewhat cheaper than making a whole axle which includes the U-joint yoke from billet stock.
https://www.prevanders.net/europa/rearaxle.html
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David claims that no machining was necessary. I have looked at two bearing suppliers and didn't find any double row bearings that would fit. Admittedly, the search functions for the places I was looking (Grainger and Motion Industries) is pretty poor. Searching for "double row ball bearings" gives you what must be every bearing they sell.
If anybody finds one that will fit, please post it.
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No machining necessary is a bit of a misnomer as it was a completely custom set up. Any double row bearing is going to be thicker and will require the spacer to be machined thinner to compensate.
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Just search for “62mm x 30mm double row bearing”….several show up
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The double row bearing is the inner bearing, nut the outer. So: 30x55x?.
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The stock inner bearing for the S2 (with a shaft turned down to 30mm) is a 6006 - 30x55x13mm
Swift (and presumably David A) is talking about the double row 3006 - 30x55x19mm, so 6mm wider.
Here's a listing but it's in France.
https://www.123bearing.com/bearings-3006-2RS-INA
A supplier in the US – no stock but an invitation to call.
https://www.locateballbearings.com/ina-3006-2rs-double-row-ball-bearing/
Probably one of the less common bearings but presumably 'orderable' from a reputable bearing supplier.
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They are both the same size on a Special.
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I just chatted with a guy at the locateballbearings outfit. They have them in stock for $38 ea. Here is the technical information:
SPECIFICATIONS
Bore Type Round Bore Diameter 30 mm
Outside Diameter 55 mm
Overall Width 19 mm
Closure Type Double Sealed Row Type & Fill Slot 1
Internal Clearance CN
Operating Temperature Range -40 to +210 °F
Cage Type Sheet metal
Dynamic Load Capacity 2990 lbf
Static Load Capacity 1866 lbf
Precision Rating ABEC 1
Seal Type Contacting seal
Finish/Coating Uncoated
Bearing Material Bearing steel
Cage Material Bearing steel Inner
Ring Width 19 mm
Outer Ring Width 19 mm
Fillet Radius 1 mm
Maximum RPM 8000 RPM
Series 630
Weight 0.39 lbs
I’d have to check but I think the load ratings for that bearing is lower than the SKF single row bearing of that size.
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Here is the technical information on the SKF 6006-2RS:
Bore Type Round
Bore Diameter 30 mm
Outside Diameter 55 mm
Overall Width 13 mm
Closure Type Double Sealed
Row Type & Fill Slot 1
Internal Clearance C3
Operating Temperature Range -40 to +210 °F
Cage Type Sheet metal
Dynamic Load Capacity 3100 lbf
Static Load Capacity 1870 lbf
Precision Rating ABEC 3
Seal Type Contacting seal
Finish/Coating Uncoated
Bearing Material Bearing steel
Cage Material Bearing steel
Inner Ring Width 13 mm
Outer Ring Width 13 mm
Fillet Radius 1 mm
Maximum RPM 8000 RPM
Series 60
Weight 0.29 lbs
As you can see, the load ratings are a little bit better for the SKF bearing.
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Further, the SKF 3006 is a double row, roller bearing, not a ball bearing.
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The 3006 2RS double row ball bearings I bought are Amcan (Chinese).
https://www.locateballbearings.com/amcan-3006-2rs-angular-contact-ball-bearing/
I don't think the inner spacer would need machining, but the shoulder of the axle would by 6 mm.
Basic static radial load is 3465 lb.
Dynamic radial load is 4477 lb.
7400 rpm limiting speed
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Swift, where did you get that data?
The data in reply #62 came from a chat session about the 3006-2RS.at the link GavinT gave. I went to https://amcanbearing.com/ and their site is user hostile or at least I wasn't able to find any information at all on the 3006-2RS.
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I'm not a big fan of off-brand Chinese bearings. Just seen too much junk. I have used extensively, and trust, bearings by SKF, FAG, NSK, and a few others.
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Chinese bearings turn me off and to have a dynamic load capacity of only about 10% more than the correct SKF bearings (which assumes that the information I received was erroneous) makes it not worth the risk for me.
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I got the bearing data from:
https://medias.schaeffler.us/en/product/rotary/rolling-and-plain-bearings/ball-bearings/angular-contact-ball-bearings/3006-2rs/p/360382
I also understand concerns about Chinese bearings. If SKF, NTN, NSK, etc. bearings in the 3006 2RS size are available by all means they would be preferable. I only bought the Chinese ones to see if it was possible to use a double row inner bearing. The narrow standard inner bearing and subsequent housing wear are a definite weakness.
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I just came back from my engine builder friend's (Dennis) shop. He measured my upright to make sure the bearing bore was round (enough) and small enough to provide the proper fit. He thought it did so that was good news.
When I got upright, stub axle, and radius arm back from the shop down the street, I notice that the spacer was in two parts (the long part is 2.0233" and the short part is 0.126"). Since I'm using TC (not Special) rear suspension parts, the spacer I need is 2.125" long. A keen eye will note that there is no combination of those two spacer parts that adds up to 2.125" /-0.010". Dennis further examined the bearing bore for the inner bearing and it appeared that the bearing had not been seated entirely in the bore. In fact, he noted a small patch of rust on the outer race confirming that. It was apparent that the spacer I had was too tall and that was likely the source of my problem. I'll remind everyone that my bearings seem to be in good shape (other than the small patch of rust on the inner bearing). There is no roughness when turning the bearings and the seals appear to be intact. I don't know how many miles are on those bearings but they seem to have a lot of life left in them.
In my defense, I did not assemble my uprights. I believe they came from Richard's (at Banks) shop and maybe someone who was not careful put them together. Regardless, I'm pretty comfortable that Dennis' analysis is correct. Not taking anything to chance, I did some measurements to ensure that the 2.125" spacer was the correct one (it is longer than from the inside of the outer bearing to the shoulder of the bore for the inner bearing and when assembled, the entire inner bearing should be in the bore).
So I'll be ordering the rest of the parts I need and get on with putting things back together. To that end, I'd like to find some Loctite to use on my bearings. Some I've seen require a fair amount of heat to disassemble the part. Can anyone suggest a Loctite (or similar product) to help hold the bearings that does not require a lot of (any?) heat? Would regular blue Loctite work?
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The outer bearing is fixed in place by the housing and the brake plate. The inner bearing does not go all the way into the housing. It is located by the spacer between the two bearings.
The inner bearing is not too "narrow". It is too small in diameter. Outer 62/30, inner 55/30(31). This means it uses smaller balls for a lower load rating and faster ball rotation speed for any given shaft rotation speed. This is why the inner bearing fails far more often than the outer. Ball bearings also have essentially point contact which is why there have a much lower load rating than tapered roller bearings. Look at all the trouble in the rear while then front with dinky tapered rollers is no problem at all. I'm thinking it may be time to switch to tapered...
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As I mentioned before, my plan too JB!
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I haven't posted an update to this in quite a while and I found something significant that I didn't notice before my previous update. See the picture below.
I think I described everything else in my previous update (reply #70 on the previous page): bearing bore in good condition, stack of spacers taller than the 2.125" called for, both bearings good. Other than the wear on the stub axle, the other thing I didn't note was that Richard had sleeved the inner and outer bearing bores with aluminum. That appears to have been a quality job based on the measurements Dennis (engine builder buddy) took.
The spacers would have kept a small amount (don't remember how much but nowhere near 1/2 thickness and I'm pretty sure much less than 1/4 thickness) of the bearing outside of the bore - so the entire thickness of the inner bearing could not have been in its bore. Measuring everything, the correct 2.125" spacer would allow the entire bearing to seat in its bore. I ordered a set from r.d. enterprises. They are very thick so when I get around to reassembling everything, I'm going to make sure that any offset in spacer doesn't beat my upright up.
The stub axle nut was torqued and locked by drilling and tapping an axial hole along the threads and a set screw screwed into it so the nut did not back out. It's pretty clear that the wear on the stub axle is caused by some misalignment. I'm at a complete loss what could cause that misalignment if it wasn't because of some problem with the inner bearing but, as I say, there is no evidence of any distress in or around the inner bearing bore that I would expect to accompany a loose bearing.
Now I have all the parts I need and I'm wondering if anybody has any tips on reassembly. Does anybody use Loctite or other retaining compound on the bearing bores (there was what looked like red Loctite in the bores after the bearings came out. This was apparently put in by one of Richard's minions.*) I got my new bearings from a bearing house and the only thing the guy there would recommend is Loctite 660 (I believe that was the number) for damaged bores and my bore is not damaged. All the retaining compounds I found are high temp and apparently require heat (much hotter than the hot water called for in the manual when disassembling the upright).
* A thought just occurred to me about whatever compound was used to retain the bearings. My uprights were assembled in the UK. Tightening the stub axle nut means that the inner bearing will move till it contacts the spacer (which we know was too long) but whatever they used would certainly have set by the time I got it and whatever adhesion was there when it was assembled would likely be broken when torqued. So what was the idea for the compound used in the inner bearing bore? (I hope that makes sense!)
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Not sure if the axle wear was due to misalignment, but I have had the same problem on the outer bearing axle journal. Axle alloy is too soft, but most importantly half the journal is on the splines. I have questioned before why axles couldn't be machined with shorter splines leaving a full journal for the bearing. Someone said it would be too much to ask for, but I don't buy that. As far as I know this axle is only used on Europas, Hillman Imps, and some vintage formula racecars. Surely machining shorter splines can't be that big a deal. In addition TC axles are not used on any other vehicle. The custom axles from PA Motorsports appear to have a full journal for the outer bearing.
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I just chatted with a guy at the locateballbearings outfit. They have them in stock for $38 ea. Here is the technical information:
SPECIFICATIONS
Bore Type Round Bore Diameter 30 mm
Outside Diameter 55 mm
Overall Width 19 mm
Closure Type Double Sealed Row Type & Fill Slot 1
Internal Clearance CN
Operating Temperature Range -40 to +210 °F
Cage Type Sheet metal
Dynamic Load Capacity 2990 lbf
Static Load Capacity 1866 lbf
Precision Rating ABEC 1
Seal Type Contacting seal
Finish/Coating Uncoated
Bearing Material Bearing steel
Cage Material Bearing steel Inner
Ring Width 19 mm
Outer Ring Width 19 mm
Fillet Radius 1 mm
Maximum RPM 8000 RPM
Series 630
Weight 0.39 lbs
I’d have to check but I think the load ratings for that bearing is lower than the SKF single row bearing of that size.
I must agree .
Products from China are garbage. right now i am pushing my car around my homes shop floor and not have put significant mileage on my car ,but would like to have the maximum bang for my buck. Who wouldn't? Trust in what members have stated will work over time.
Dakazman
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Maybe the misalignment I had was due to the wear on the soft splines… but I would guess that substantial support, say half the width of the bearing, would be enough to support the bearing. I don’t know. I’m certainly not being argumentative. You could be right.
What is not in dispute is that the stub axles are a major weakness. I am really intrigued by Andy and Joe’s VW drive shaft swap (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4782.0). It requires a twin link rear and inner CV joint flanges to be adapted to mount the VW CV joints (both of which I have), but neither $1000 nor time to fiddle with it are in my time and money budgets at the moment. Maybe I can slowly collect parts! ;). For now, I’ll just put it back together “vanilla” and hope for the best.