Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: jrnicl5 on Monday,August 23, 2021, 07:55:06 AM
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Hello Everyone,
I recently bought a lotus TC special 74. The sat time it ran was in 1981. yes.. About 40 years ago. I flush the oil/coolant, replace the gas tank and swirl-pot, all hoses, coil, fuel pump. After all the joy, I was able to start the engine without any issues. However, after running for 3mn, it will stop. It's pretty hard to have it start again. Unless I spray some starter spray. It won't start. IF I come the next day, it will start again and will stop after a few minutes.
Any advice would be welcome.
Regards
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The fact it cuts out and then you can only start it with a spray makes it sound like fuel supply, the float chambers are emptying over the 3 minutes running and then it takes a while to replenish ?
Is this the Federal car with Strombergs or UK with Dellortos ? It's fairly easy to check fuel level in the chambers on a Dellorto but I'm not sure how to do it with strombergs other than dismantling the carbs.
It could be dirt in the fuel feed pipes, sticking floats or just dirt in the carbs themselves. I would have gone for the fuel tanks until you said you'd replaced them, rust in the tanks and blocked exit pipes are common on something that's been left standing.
Brian
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Check to see if there is fuel in the glass bowl of the fuel pump when the engine stops.
It could be the diaphragm in the fuel pump is torn, and the fuel is not pumping through to the carbs.
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The original fuel pump has been upgraded to an electric fuel pump. I did replace the old electric pump and the coil.
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Hello Brian,
I did clean the SU. However, I have not replaced all the parts(floater/seals). I should probably order a kit for a rebuild.
Regards,
Jean
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Can you please tell us more details about the car. What carbs? Did you overhaul the carbs? If so, what exactly did you change out. Still points ignition? Starts and runs with starter spray no problem when it won't otherwise hot start?
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"the SU"
Can you post photos please? They never came with a single SU so we need to see what you have.
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I did clean the SU.
SU ? Does this have SU carbs on ? I've not heard of that being an option, it sounds like an aftermarket idea to replace strombergs with SUs ?
Edit to add
:) We're a continent apart but on the same page JB....
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I'm not an expert on carburetors.. I believe this is an SU. My apologies in advance If I'm wrong!
Thanks
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They are Strombergs. The writing on the top even says that!
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Sorry that was rude of me. They do look similar to SU's.
:Welcome:
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Could the ignition coil be overheating and needs to be left overnight to cool down?
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http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=3619.msg37946#msg37946
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Hello SilverBeast,
It's possible.. if I wait for some time, I can start it again. I've attached the coil I'm using.
Regards,
Jean
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Thanks jbcollier.
These are valuable resources. I have to spend some time understanding this complex system!
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Have you got a 9v coil being fed by 12v or a 12v coil being fed by 9v?
There is a white ceramic resistor attached to the fibreglass above the chassis by the coil and right hand tank. That resistor, if wired up, reduces the 12v supply down to 9v for a 9v coil. This is only boosted to 12v when the starter is cranking, if the original wiring from the starter straight to the coil, is still wired up.
If the wrong voltage is going through the coil, it won't like it.
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Hello 4129R,
I'm not sure if this is the ceramic resistor you are referring to. This is all I could find that had a connection to the coil. Please see the attached photo and let me know.
I had to bypass a wire as there was no connection at all. I may need to replace it. I was not sure how to with what resistor. Any help would be great.
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The resistor is not being used. Measure the resistance of the coil's primary circuit. If it is 3 ohms or more, you don't need a resistor.
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Isn't that an ignition module to the left of the redundant resistor? Has this had an ignition conversion?
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Hello 4129R,
I'm not sure if this is the ceramic resistor you are referring to.
Yes, that is the resistor which is only used for a 9v coil.
As others have said, it is not in use, and it looks like you have an electronic ignition pack, so probably no points in the distributor.
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Isn't that an ignition module to the left of the redundant resistor? Has this had an ignition conversion?
It looks like the Crane XR700 module ? I'm not familiar with this design although you guys across the pond should be fine with it.
Jean,
In the first post you mention replacing the coil. I have no idea if that's causing the problem but it might be worthwhile checking you have the correct one installed because some of these modules are fussy about coil resistance. I found this guide which indicates that the Crane XR700 is designed for a ballasted system.
https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig207.htm (https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig207.htm)
Bear in mind that could be a complete red herring because I'm not sure exactly what you've got there (other than it's not the same as mine ! :) ) My advice now would be to do a quick search on the module you've got and make sure it's installed with the correct coil, etc.
Brian
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Thank you Brian,
The diagram you provided is very helpful. Yes, This is the Crane Cams XR700 as per the attached picture. The coil I used is surely not for the car. I borrow one from another car to get the engine started. let me replace it with the same as the original one that came with the car.
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I will also replace the "ballast resistor". So far I have bypassed it. I'll provide an update by tonight.
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I also have a Crane/FAST electronic ignition in my Twin Cam. I didn't do the installation but there is a ballast resister in use and the coil I went with is from Crane/FAST. Might not be a bad idea to give them a call.
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The problem is: not running after three minutes. Will start if he sprays ether down the carb throats. If there isn't spark, it wouldn't start even with ether. We need more information.
- When started cold, does it run "well-ish"?
- When it quits, does it just shut off? Does it splutter?
- When you spray ether down the carbs, does it run "well-ish"? Or, just splutter reluctantly?
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Hello jbcollier,
See below for my response:
When started cold, does it run "well-ish"? Yes
- When it quits, does it just shut off? Does it splutter? it shuts off. no splutter
- When you spray ether down the carbs, does it run "well-ish"? Or, just splutter reluctantly? After the shut-off, it would crank and not start. I would spray and will run again and shut off after a moment. I would accelerate to give more gas. but it will eventually shut-off
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Sounds like fuel issues to me. Unusual that it is only when cold. A few more checks:
- start it and warm it up until it quits. Pull the coil wire from the distributor, hold it a 1/4" from the engine (metal part, not carb), crank engine. Do you have spark? (Im assume yes but worth double-double checking)
- Again, make sure it is in a "will-not-run" state. Pull the fuel line off the carb and point it into a plastic bottle, crank for 10 secs. Is it pumping fuel? Fuel look good? Ample quantity?
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Hello JbCollier,
- start it and warm it up until it quits. Pull the coil wire from the distributor, hold it a 1/4" from the engine (metal part, not carb), crank engine. Do you have spark? (Im assume yes but worth double-double checking) ->YES, I can definitely see the spark.
- Again, make sure it is in a "will-not-run" state. Pull the fuel line off the carb and point it into a plastic bottle, crank for 10 secs. Is it pumping fuel? Fuel look good? Ample quantity? the fuel flow is good. Please note that the fuel pump is new.
I just spent some time troubleshooting the issue. I believe the issue is from the SU. The fuel flow is not constant somehow. Usually, after I start the engine and it later on stops, I have to wait some time to be able to start again. So, this time I increase the fuel flow from the accelerator cable area and started the car right away. It started. I could not let it run at high rev too long to not scare my neighbors...
My option may be is to order a rebuild kit or any suggestion would be great.
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Quote: "So, this time I increase the fuel flow from the accelerator cable area and started the car right away."
What does this mean? Sorry, please explain exactly what you did - did you just increase the idle speed by adjusting the accelerator cable at the carburetor linkage?
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If you're getting a good spark and you're certain there is fuel in the float chamber but after 3 minutes or so it stops and you can only start it with one of these "cold start" ether/acetone sprays then it's a real puzzle. You've got the spark timing right otherwise it wouldn't run at all, so in theory you've got everything in place.
I'm struggling. Two things come to mind - firstly the coil overheating and unable to provide a strong enough spark for a petrol mixture, but enough to show signs of life with ether because it's a more flammable mixture. If it won't run once the ether has burnt off and you should be running on petrol then I'd try touching the coil and seeing how warm it is. Should be warm but not hot.
Another vague memory comes up from years ago when I ran a Mini with SU (not Stromberg) carbs and the piston/needle kept sticking, usually after some steady cruising then cutting out. Then it would drop and the car run fine again. I only found it by sheer fluke, the piston dropped when I was "waggling wires" by the side of the road.
I guess the lesson here is to check the carb is functioning properly; piston moving freely, no nicks in the diaphragms, float heights ok, needle shutoff valve not sticking, etc. That's a desperate hope, but if you're sure there's a good spark & fuel to the carbs then it's the next place I'd look.
Brian
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Carbs are a mess. You can see the choke cable just hanging. Probably just needs a good going over and set up. If you have never worked on Stromberg before, and you are not a mechanical genius, I would recommend taking them to someone who is experienced on them.
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Hello Dilkris,
Quote: "So, this time I increase the fuel flow from the accelerator cable area and started the car right away."
What does this mean? Sorry, please explain exactly what you did - did you just increase the idle speed by adjusting the accelerator cable at the carburetor linkage? -> yes, this is correct.
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It seems from the evidence that in the 3 minutes of running either something gets hot and jams or stops working, or the fuel runs out.
If there is fuel in both carburetor float chambers, and the two pistons go up and down freely, that would seem to eliminate the fuel starvation.
Could the electronic ignition pack overheat, if the coil is working sufficiently to ignite the fuel in the combustion chamber?
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I checked both and they are just warm not hot at all.
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Hello Jbcollier,
Yeah.. please note that the car sat for 40 years and I am putting things back together as I progress. Would you have a picture of the accelerator cable setup from your car to send me? I have not yet worked on this part too. I changed all old rubber hoses, fuel tanks, coolant hoses/spark plugs. I need to work on the brakes, clutch cable, and exhaust system. Hopefully, that would be it!!!
Also,
I'm definitely not a mechanical genius. I am just actively starting to learn how to have this new toy running again and I plan to do everything myself, hence the purpose of this forum is to learn from others and to share with others. In the past, I replaced the wiring harness of a Porsche 944 turbo and did the timing belt /water pump replacement. I always fix my cars. I enjoy this journey and everyone's help and I am very appreciative of your time. I just have to keep going one step at a time. So far... so good! this is my hobby as painful as it will be. I love it!
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When the engine cuts out, check to see the position of the slide pot thing with the needle in that slides up and down in the carburetor. Undo the black piston damper in the top to see where they are. If they are jammed they might free up when you undo the piston damper.
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Everything looks good there. I removed the black cap and the piston goes up and down. nothing stuck. I pushed the piston from bottom to top and released it. It dropped right away for both.
Also, How much oil should be in that area where you close the top black cap?
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Strombergs are very simple.
Four screws to remove the top of the vacuum chamber and look to verify that the diaphrams are intact.
There is some argument over which oil to use in the dampers.
Some swear by Marvel Mystery oil, others insist on engine oil, I believe there is a specific SU/Stromberg oil available as well.
Pistons and dampers are unlikely to be why your engine dies after a few minutes, but sticking floats or needles might be.
After sitting so long I would be very suspicious of floats and needles as the old gas turns to varnish and moisture corrodes aluminum.
No collapsing fuel lines or clogged filters?
If you still have points and coil ignition check the coil and condenser.
Condensors may also fail when they warm up and are cheap to replace.
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Everything looks good there. I removed the black cap and the piston goes up and down. nothing stuck. I pushed the piston from bottom to top and released it. It dropped right away for both.
Also, How much oil should be in that area where you close the top black cap?
I used to put about half in the SUs. If you put too much in, it will overflow and burn off in the engine, causing no long term problem.
I used 3 in 1 oil in SUs, a light general purpose oil. Seemed to work fine.
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Myself, I would either fit a set of Mikuni flat slides as per this link:
http://www.v-performance.com/products/air_fuel.html
(one lister has a thread on fitting them)
Or, I would completely overhaul them and fit adjustable dashpots.
If you just want to get them running, then take them off and fit new gaskets, needle and seats, diaphragms, and, most importantly, o-rings! The o-rings in the float bowl are prone to leaking and they leak onto the distributer -- better yet is to fit solid float bowls that don't need the o-ring but they can be hard to find. Set the float levels carefully at the upper end of the spec. Dashpots only go one way so pay attention. Use Dexron 2/3 automatic transmission oil in the dampers as that doesn't swell the diaphragms.
This is not an overhaul, just making sure you don't kill the car with an engine fire.
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better yet is to fit solid float bowls that don't need the o-ring but they can be hard to find.
X2! I found one of mine leaking about a year after I bought the car. Scary to see fuel dripping onto the distributor. I replaced the o-rings every spring after that but still didn't trust them, so began searching for solid float bowls. Tough to find, but I eventually found a new pair at Dave Bean last summer. Highly recommended.
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I uploaded a recording of the Engine running and then stopped :
Cold start from this afternoon.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nnPg0kPtOFGLW-ygftpeilcmqsytLZGd/view?usp=sharing
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Any advice where to order the stromberg 175 cd2 rebuild kit?
I see so many places offering from $26 to $140.
Not sure which one to buy.
I’m in the US, Texas.
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Are you going to keep the car? Or, just fix it up and move it on? Where are you located? No use in recommending a US shop if you are in the UK.
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Duh, spotted your location as I hit send...
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RD Enterprises will have the needles: B2AR (Lotus part #36S6180)
Moss has the major overhaul kit:
https://mossmotors.com/master-rebuild-kit-genuine-zenith-stromberg?assoc=81812
You will also need the adjustment tool:
https://mossmotors.com/triumph-tr6-250/fuel-intake-emissions/tool-carb-adjusting
And a sync tool:
https://mossmotors.com/triumph-tr6-250/fuel-intake-emissions/meter-carburetor-flow-sk
And to chase down two used dashpots with adjustable needles from a wrecked TR6 or TR7.
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Hello Jbcollier,
Yes, I’m in the US, Texas. I plan to keep the car. I am now evaluating the cost of rebuilding the carbs and with the constant adjustments of the strombergs. Would it be better to transition to what you suggested with the Mikuni kit. The cost is higher but low maintenance down the road and more power.
Your thoughts on this ???
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Properly rebuilt and modified (air-compensator and decell-valve disabled) Strombergs are very reliable carbs. Mikunis will give better performance if you build a performance oriented engine. Your engine is (probably) stock and of unknown condition. I would overhaul what you have so you can drive it and make decisions from there. You can always sell them later if you decide to upgrade things.
Now, let's look at your carbs closely to see what they actually need. Start with grabbing the throttle shafts and seeing if you can move them sideways or up and down. Pull and push hard. Any movement?
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I watched your video.
To my ear the engine changed tone slightly, twice before it quit.
Stop was sudden, seems more like a switch than fuel starvation.
Have you watched the tachometer while it is running?
Is the RPM steady or fluctuating, does it decrease in steps before stopping?
If the car has sat so long rebuilding the carbs is a very good idea but I will not be shocked if that fails to cure the issue.
My old S.E.A. analyzer is very large and heavy so not portable.
But there are modern O'Scope versions that run on a lap-top.
The software is not cheap but good tuning shops should have it.
Maybe you can get a Tuner to look at your ignition system as it runs and fails.
Would it be too difficult to just return the ignition system to stock as a test?
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To my ear the engine changed tone slightly, twice before it quit.
Stop was sudden, seems more like a switch than fuel starvation.
Have you watched the tachometer while it is running?
Is the RPM steady or fluctuating, does it decrease in steps before stopping?
I've also watched it a couple of times now. I don't pick up a massive change in engine note but the idle sounds quite fast compared to my car so it's harder to pick out. I'd need to see the rev counter I think.
I must admit I was strongly on the fuel starvation option but I'd also agree that the cut-out was much quicker than I expected from running out of fuel, it's more like the ignition was turned off. With that in mind I think I'd also revisit the electrics and make 100% sure that there's a strong spark immediately after the engine cuts out because that's simpler than rebuilding the carbs.
I use inline testers such as the one in the attachment, very simple to plug in and check there's a good spark. You might have a spark that's simply not strong enough to ignite under compression but good enough to flash on a plug in the air.
Would it be too difficult to just return the ignition system to stock as a test?
That's got to be an option, the old fashioned CB points, condenser & coil might not be desirable from a long term maintenance viewpoint but it is very simple and easy to install.
Brian
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I must admit I was strongly on the fuel starvation option but I'd also agree that the cut-out was much quicker than I expected from running out of fuel, it's more like the ignition was turned off. With that in mind I think I'd also revisit the electrics and make 100% sure that there's a strong spark immediately after the engine cuts out because that's simpler than rebuilding the carbs.
I use inline testers such as the one in the attachment, very simple to plug in and check there's a good spark. You might have a spark that's simply not strong enough to ignite under compression but good enough to flash on a plug in the air.
Brian
If you attached a timing strobe to the HT leads, and watched the timing light, if the spark stopped, wouldn't the timing strobe also stop at the same time?
If it stops suddenly after about 3 minutes, using a timing strobe might tell you if the spark just stops and cuts the engine. Ditto the rev counter. Maybe after all the rev counter is the easier option to watch.
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If you attached a timing strobe to the HT leads, and watched the timing light, if the spark stopped, wouldn't the timing strobe also stop at the same time?
If it stops suddenly after about 3 minutes, using a timing strobe might tell you if the spark just stops and cuts the engine. Ditto the rev counter. Maybe after all the rev counter is the easier option to watch.
Yep, the theory works but I doubt I could tell if the spark had stopped because there was no fuel so the engine stopped, or the spark died first with fuel still in the carbs. It's a fairly abrupt stop in the video and did almost sound like the ignition was switched off.
The spark tester idea is based on the fact that from earlier comments he said he'd got to wait a while before it would restart or it would fire up for a short while with an ether spray. I would stick one of these testers in line and immediately after it cut out, spin the motor and see what sort of spark there is - none/weak/strong. If there is a good spark with the plug under compression, I'd move back to fuel as a candidate. A weak or no spark, I'd be tempted to pull the electronic ignition and fit points to get it running.
Brian
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An oscilloscope will present a waveform that may be observed in real time.
If the issue is electrical the waveform will alter as the system fails.
The waveform may be read to see which component of the ignition cycle is failing.
This works regardless of ignition type although non-standard ignitions may require a more skilled operator to interpret the pattern.
EDIT: New scopes start at only about $100.00, good ones about $700.00
https://www.picoauto.com/products/automotive-oscilloscope-kit/overview
Not sure what town you are in but any large city should have a Tuner shop.
These days even the local Garage should have a scope and many are portable.
Since my old console version is not portable I am going to look for a used lap-top version for my own use.
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Thanks for all your replies.
I uploaded another video where you can hear me starting the engine and later one it will stop on its own. The tach is not connected I believe as it is not showing any rev for now. I could not record it though. Will have to deal with it after.
I have a long list of testing as per your advice to go through. I will rebuild the carbs too. By the way, I'm in Texas.
Also, during the video, you will notice the idle decreasing close to the end. It's because at one point I adjusted the idle as it was too high.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Q0NeCFn0vLhIURsWtYJLRY84tT7NpS_T/view?usp=sharing
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Hello Richard48Y,
I don’t have the parts to return the ignition system to stock.
jbcollier,
The throttle shaft seems to be fine. Thanks for the references for the rebuild kit and tools.
I will definitely rebuild it to eliminate any issues with the carb. Parts will be ordered today.
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If the throttle shafts are good, then you just need a minor overhaul kit, and the jets, needles, used adjustable dash pots, and tool.
The overhaul kit is much cheaper:
https://mossmotors.com/rebuild-kit-genuine-zenith-stromberg-for-2-carburetors?assoc=81813
Still need the fixed jets:
https://mossmotors.com/jet-pressed-into-carb-body
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Not to to state the obvious, but ignition switches can become intermittent. I know from experience and it is not the most obvious problem.
Your video to me indicates to me he ignition cuts out.
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Easily checked via a "Hot" wire from the battery.
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Easily checked via a "Hot" wire from the battery.
But take care not to let that wire get into the rotating bits, is easily removed to cut the engine, and is preferably fused to prevent shorting to earth and causing an electrical wire melting problem.
Loose wires around the engine worry me and they can easily get into places they shouldn't be.
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Is the following the right jet needle? should I replace it too?
https://mossmotors.com/jet-needle-bag
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You have to get the needles from a Lotus specialist, or directly from Burlen in the UK. RD Enterprises has them. Numbers in an earlier post to this thread. Get the UK?Euro spec needles.
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Thanks.. ordered from Rd enterprise today.
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Your video to me indicates to me he ignition cuts out.
:I-agree:
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If an engine is not running, it is very easy to diagnose the problem. Either there is spark/fuel or there's not. One is missing. Crank it and see.
I start with removing the coil wire from the distributor. Hold it a 1/4" from the engine and crank. Fat spark? Put the wire back in place and remove a lead from a spark plug. Same again. No spark? Bad cap or rotor.
Same with fuel. Pull the line from the carb and point it into a plastic bottle. Crank to check that fuel is pumping, and in sufficient quantities.
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Thanks.. The parts arrived. I am working on the rebuild of the stromberg carbs. Should be done by tomorrow.
Also, I still have the Lucas distributor with old ignition wires along with the XR700 electronic ignition system,
Should I replace the Lucas distributor with the Petronix distributor for twincam kit from RD enterprise to eliminate most issues? The car sat quite some time and I want a fresh start.
Not cheap though: reference from Rd enterprise
“Pertronix Distributor for TwinCam
This brand new distributor has the Ignitor II electronic ignition with adaptive dwell control for optimum spark. The side-entry distributor cap attaches with clips (not screws) for easier installation and maintenance. All mechanical advance with optimized advance curve for performance and drivability. The distributor comes complete with gear and clamping plate (clamping plate is not shown in these photos).
The Ignitor II ignition requires a low resistance coil (.6 ohm) Do not use your 3.0 ohm coil.
Ref. 26M0009-PER Distributor $295.00
Ref. IGN-45111 45,000 volt coil (epoxy filled)
Ref. IGN-10001 Coil Bracket
Ref. 26E0740-43BL Ignition Wire Set $30.00”
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Before you get it from r.d., you might want to call Pertronix and see if it makes sense to order it from them. I wasn't able to find the distributor for Loti but I know they make it and if you sign up for their newsletter, you can get 10% off your initial order. Give them a call and see what they can do about the discount and the price.
PerTronix (909) 599-5955
Also if you need it, their tech support (via phone call) is very good!
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Thanks., I’ll call them.
Do you know about this configuration with the Mallory distributor?
http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/electrical/Mallory_Install_Part_1.htm
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Nope. I guess there are several options. I had a problem with my optical ignition (but it was a very old system). I use Pertronix Ignitor II now.
When you call Pertronix, you might want to check if you can statically time their distributor.
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Yes.. I’ll ask them
Meanwhile, Does anyone have a Twin Cam with a stromberg 175 cd 2 using a petroninx distributed setup? What are the specifications of the system do you have?
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Ok!! I finally finished cleaning/ rebuilding the carbs. I does run better. Did not stop this time.. I kept the same coil/distributor and electric ignition system.
The exhaust is rusted so I could no more handle the smoke emissions. I ordered Rd enterprise exhaust kit an it arrived.
Problem that I’m facing is to replace the original exhaust manifold and install the new exhaust.. there is not that that much space
What is the best way?
Thanks
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Glad to hear that you've got it running properly, that's a good result.
Whenever I have done work on the exhaust I usually remove the luggage tray and prop the rear deck up another way - broom handles seem to work :)
With the tray out of the way I stand inside the engine bay over the gearbox, you have great access to the pipework/silencer and it's even easier to get to the manifold joint. I start from the back (silencer box) and take the whole lot off, it's easier to re-seal than struggling with sections. If you are retaining the original Cast Iron manifold then I'd consider using a nut-splitter on the joint to the downpipe if that's very rusty, extracting & replacing a stud in that position is going to be a fiddly job.
If you are removing the old Cast Iron manifold & replacing with a 4-2-1 tubular system then I'd get some spare studs on hand. Soak the originals with release fluid overnight but even so there's a chance you'll damage or break a stud if you've got steel nuts rusted in place.
Alongside some spare studs I'd also buy some extended brass manifold nuts because they'll protect the ends of the studs which are otherwise exposed to air & rust. My memory is hazy but I think it was Alex on here who originally posted about these and I think they were for the old BL (60's-70's) Mini engine. I bought a set from Ebay.
Brian
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The best way to remove old exhaust manifold nuts is to use heat. Heat the nut to a light red glow on one side before trying to turn it. If it stiffens up, heat it again.
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I use brass nuts and brass washers on the 8 manifold studs, with extended brass nuts for the two difficult to access ones, I think they are 3 and 4, or 4 and 5 from the front.
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Thanks for the response.
I added pictures of the Stromberg rebuild Kit I ordered.(picture 2 & 3)
Also, you will see from the first picture the engine bay. looks like I have to remove the AC compressor and all hoses to remove the manifold.