Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: rjbaren on Monday,September 14, 2020, 06:53:34 AM
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I took a break from my relay projects take a drive. The horn relays is done and so is the radiator fan relay so I thought it would see if the fan would come on. If the engine was not hot enough I would let it idle till it turned on the fan to complete the relay test.
Things didn't go so well. After about five miles I felt/noticed a single misfire and thought maybe I should head home. The car continued to run smoothly, and I missed my opportunity to take a shortcut home and of course then the car started really missing and losing power, and then the power would come back on and off till she quit. I was on the side of the road about a mile from home so I had it flat bedded home.
I have checked for spark, thanks to my wife, and there is spark at the end of the spark plug wire. I removed the rubber fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump output to the carb TEE connector and hit the starter and fuel pumped into a jar. The rubber line at the fuel pump connection was to my surprise, not tight. It was a crimped on type clamp and I easily pulled the rubber line off the metal line. I also noticed I have no fuel filter. I have 1/4 inch line and I plan to put in an inline filter. Should it go before or after the fuel pump?
Lastly, the only weird thing I did before the drive was to remove a rubber vacuum line that went from one carb to the other. I thought it would look cleaner if I removed the vacuum hose and put a rubber vacuum cap on each nozzle where the hoses were attached at each carb base near the inlet manifold. I think this nozzle is used for the vacuum advance but not on my car.
The engine and carbs were both professionally overhauled. The carbs were sent to Joe Curto and the mostly restored car has about 500 miles on it so far. The gas tanks were both cleaned as well but I didn't notice the lack of a fuel filter till now. The car want to fire with the fuel line disconnected. Could the lack of a fuel filter have clogged the float bowl inlet and starved the engine? If this happened to just one carb is that enough to make the car stop running?
Thanks
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If you have fuel and a spark, maybe the timing has changed through the distributor not being tight and moving around. That could account for the misfire.
Check the timing, make sure the plugs are clean their gap is correct and they haven't sooted up. Make sure the plug leads are fixed firmly. Make sure the points are clean and dry.
My guess is an electrical problem.
Has the HT coil overheated through 12v going through a 9V coil for a long time?
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Today I added an inline fuel filter and it filled with fuel so I know the fuel pump is working, plus I pumped some into a jar for good measure. The distributor is tight and does not rotate. The cap is seated and all the wires are tight. There is a ballast resister near the coil and the coil is new. When I stuck a screwdriver in the plug wire and laid it near the valve cover yesterday there was spark. All the low tension wires at the cap and coil are tight and not broken.
I feel like it is a fuel problem because I even suspected the accelerator cable might have broke. When I tried to start it up today the first few cranks she fired and of course died. Finally she wouldn't even fire. I do remember the mechanic at the shop telling me the Stromberg carbs will strand you.
I guess I need to check the points too.
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Elan owner with Strombergs here, so may be missing something Europa-specific - but on the Elan twink, the tube connecting the 2 carbs is very important as it balances the airflow across the carbs and siamesed intakes. An Elan without would run extremely rough, at best. But that is a metal tube not a rubber tube, so perhaps you're speaking of something different. Regardless, there is nothing wrong or problematic about Strombergs, and if Joe Curto rebuilt yours you can likely rule them out as the problem and I'd be thinking ignition circuit somewhere. They're pretty simple to work on and diagnose, so don't be scared to open them up and look around if you're concerned about fuel gunk in the bowl. How are they mounted? On the Elan twin cam, the mount needs to be flexible with a good viton ring between adapter plate and secondary throttle and with thackery washers or similar under the nuts, I assume the same on the Europa. A hard/fixed mount can cause fuel frothing which may also cause issues. Last, have you checked the damper oil?
Agree with your last thought on checking your points, as well as the rotor itself. Even if new check the cap carefully and try an old or replacement rotor, there is a lot of new junk out there. In my opinion, Distributor Doctor is selling the best quality distributor parts, if you need them.
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Thanks Senc. Tonight I pulled each plug and they were wet. I recently installed new Autolite resistor plugs because I added a radio. I also changed from copper core wires to suppression wires. I did the screwdriver in the plug wire boot test and I see spark. The distributor is not lose so I don't believe it is timing. I think by seeing a spark I rule out the cap, rotor, points, coil and wiring.
I just wonder if a piece of dirt got in the float needle. Before tonight there was no fuel filter for the nearly 500 miles I have driven the car. Also the way the car quit running was an on again off again feeling. I would think if the spark were the culprit the engine would just go dead, but the engine kept trying to run and would then sputter and run and then sputter some more and finally lost power and quit.
Tomorrow I may have to pull the carbs and check the needle valves.
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I may be going our on a limb a bit but I think that because you got a spark does not mean that your cap, rotor, points, and/or condenser are ok. Inspecting your rotor and cap could be in order. What color is your rotor? If it is new and it's not red, it may be suspect. Recent copies of Lucas rotors use a rivet to attach the conductor to the rotor. Red ones are what you want (http://www.distributordoctor.com/red-rotor-arms.html). r.d. enterprises, Dave Bean certainly sell them. I would expect most reputable Lotus suppliers will as well or you can get them from the diestributor doctor (see link). A cracked cap may be more difficult to detect. I think that sometimes a carbon trace will show it but I don't have first hand experience. As for points and condenser, I'd replace them with the latest Pertronix kit if you haven't already. Along with that, a Pertronix coil would be advised.
I don't have a firm belief that your problem is in your ignition, although I think that's reasonable place to look. In any case, if you have a Pertronix ignition, a new cap and red rotor (you should have your resistance wire installed) you can be pretty certain that it isn't ignition and you'll have a better ignition system than stock.
Good luck!
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BDA, I just popped off the cap and I do have a red rotor. I sent my distributor off to Advance distributors in Shakopee MN around the same time I sent my carbs to Joe Curto. Both were installed by the engine rebuilder and everything ran great, until yesterday. My plan was to install the Petronix and a Weber 2bbl downdraft over the winter. I would prefer Weber side drafts but that is too expensive at this point.
I am going to stop in the shop that put everything together and see what they think. I really would like to get this car running again rather than flat bed it off to the shop. Tomorrow is another day.
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If you haven't already, I'd pull out the multimeter and test voltage and resistence step by step (points open and points closed) from ignition to ballast to coil (your coil is low (1.5ohm) resistance since you have a ballast resistor, correct) to distbutor to engine to ground. JBCollier posted a great step-by-step in a recent thread. I'd also check the resistence of the HT cables and the distributor cap (you can do both with the cables connected to the cap). What you're describing sounds more electric than fuel to me, but that is admittedly a speculative comment from here. I would also double-check the engine to chassis ground-strap and connections.
Assuming you can successfuly follow the electrical path and you're getting the resistance and voltages you expect, I'd still pull the distributor and cap for close inspection. I was struggling with a distributor recently rebuilt by a highly reliable vendor with top quality parts - my old (non-standard) distributor and wires worked fine, couldn't get the engine to start on the rebuilt standard one. I was getting spark at the end of each wire, but it was weak. After chasing and chasing I re-inspected the inside of the new cap again and saw a small bit of carbon tracing - not enough to be a problem but I had a spare cap so tried it. Then I noticed a bit of new tracing on it in the same place, and realized there was some spark jumping from the points/condensor connection very nearby (shouldn't have been enough energy for that there). I pulled the connection and the points spring and on very close inspection realized the red fiber washer that insulates had been cut by the edge of the points spring and was allowing a periodic/partial short with engine/starter. With the washer replaced it turned over first time and ran great.
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Well you guys were all correct. It is ignition. I finally pulled the distributor and found the drive gear half gone. I fished most of the broken parts out of the distributor hole. It looks like the gear on the jackshaft has been gnarled too.
It's going to go the shop for the necessary work. I'm thinking it may also be a good time to do the cartridge water pump and electronic ignition too. Any other thoughts since the engine is coming out?
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For the jackshaft drive gear and the distributor gear to have smashed up, either something has got between the two, or the distributor bearings may be faulty.
A very strange thing to happen, especially since it takes very little effort to rotate the distributor shaft if all is working well.
I think something strange has caused this. Very unusual. Has anyone heard of such a failure before?
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Wow! Who would have thought that?! The source of that failure should be investigated!
As long as your motor is out, if you don't have stainless steel transfer tubes, that would be a good time to do that.
JB gives what I consider a pretty convincing argument that the cassette water pumps are not called for on the Europa since there are no ancillary drive belts (such as an alternator as on the Elan) that could put pressure on the bearings. You might consider replacing your water pump v-belt with a gilmer belt. This would further reduce the stress on the bearings. I don't have any experience with the TC water pump but based on my experience with my water pump gilmer belt, I would expect the gilmer belt would be easier to replace than the v-belt.
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Check older posts from JB. I seem to remember that it is critical that the proper head alignment tool is used so that this issue does not occur. Check to make sure that the head was set correctly by the re builder.
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This is a Twink, not a Renault.
On a Europa, I would have no qualms about keeping the stock water pump as long as it was properly and carefully rebuilt. That said, sleeping at night is a good thing. If it would make you feel better, and you are flush with cash, why not?
Distributor gears are not an issue with Twink engines. Something was damaged, incorrectly assembled, etc. Find out why. Don't just replace parts.
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You need to take the engine out and take the sump off to see what metal bits are down there.
My guess is something "foreign" has got between the gears and caused them to fail.
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The oil pump and the distributor are driven off of the same gear on the jackshaft. The gear teeth on my jackshaft was damaged by some idiot not being careful re-installing the oil pump in the past. Unfortunately the idiot was me. Most of the metal bits should have dropped into the oil pan but some small bits may have been carried in the oil galleries to the rest of the engine. During the tear down of my twink engine, there was some light scoring on the main and rod journals and the cam shaft. Not positive that the broken jackshaft teeth was the cause of the scoring.
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Another "Wow !" and the "Lots of Trouble" award is well deserved for such a unique and devious breakdown !
Joking apart, that's incredibly hard luck and something I've never seen before. In fact I'm struggling to think how the engine could run for so long after being assembled and then suddenly fail, I'd have expected an assembly fault like that to show itself in the first few miles.
But as John says, something is wrong and the cause needs to be found before starting over. I'm a bit hazy without a distributor in front of me but I'm wondering if the spiral cog on the bottom is pinned to the distributor shaft on these engines and if that's loosened. Hard to see how other than an undersized pin but I'm struggling anyway.
The other thought was if the distributor clamp plate had loosened where it grips round the distributor body. It's hard to see how it could come off the engine block without losing the timing and being obvious before it came loose enough to wreck the gears, but I suppose it might not be gripping the body tight enough and the action of rotating on the spiral causes it to jump teeth. (before slipping back down & smashing itself....)
If you can manage it, some photos of the damage might help others to avoid the same thing ?
JB gives what I consider a pretty convincing argument that the cassette water pumps are not called for on the Europa since there are no ancillary drive belts (such as an alternator as on the Elan) that could put pressure on the bearings. You might consider replacing your water pump v-belt with a gilmer belt. This would further reduce the stress on the bearings. I don't have any experience with the TC water pump but based on my experience with my water pump gilmer belt, I would expect the gilmer belt would be easier to replace than the v-belt.
I've kept to the OEM pump as well, without an alternator/dynamo bracket where the owner can apply so much force that it breaks the bearings the Europa pump lasts a long time. And I'm sure I remember Mike Walters saying at a Club Lotus seminar that they never had premature failures with the TC Europa (and only a handful with the Elan - but they'd mostly be dealer serviced back then)
Miles Wilkins is also an advocate of the OEM pump and in his books he reckons the "waterpump failure" is a myth. True, if it goes wrong then it is a Head/sump removal job, but you'll do the same thing to fit a cartridge pump and even then you've got access problems to replace it. In fact I'd check that a cartridge can be replaced with the engine in situ before going ahead, it's different on the Elans because once the radiator is out you have easy access but we have that bulkhead on the Europa.
Looking forward to the diagnosis and verdict.....
Brian
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The oil pump and the distributor are driven off of the same gear on the jackshaft. The gear teeth on my jackshaft was damaged by some idiot not being careful re-installing the oil pump in the past. Unfortunately the idiot was me.
Just so we don't go down the same slippery path, could you please care to enlighten us what we could possibly do wrong in installing the oil pump which would cause damage to the drive from the jackshaft.
I don't want to go down that path, as it sounds very expensive, especially if the oil pump stops and the engine doesn't...... until it runs dry.
My thoughts are the distance between the oil pump and the block were wrong, and the gear did not connect properly to the jackshaft. There is a spacer thingy that I have never found the need to put in....... yet.
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Ok, I've never built a Kent motor from scratch so I'm far from an expert but if a spacer might be required for the oil pump, one would also be required for the dizzy, right?
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Ok, I've never built a Kent motor from scratch so I'm far from an expert but if a spacer might be required for the oil pump, one would also be required for the dizzy, right?
Depends of the length between the flange where is attaches to the block, and the gear which engages the jackshaft.
2 separate shafts engaging the jackshaft at different angles.
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The oil pump doesn't have a spacer, just a gasket. I believe I caused the cascading damage by being in too big of a hurry in installing the oil pump. I did not ensure that the teeth of the pump were engaged with the jackshaft before tightening down on the bolts. The helical gears of the pump and jackshaft should sort of self align when inserted but I didn't ensure that they were before I started torquing down on the bolts. See the damage on the jackshaft teeth when I pulled it out for my engine rebuild (picture attached).
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The oil pump doesn't have a spacer, just a gasket.
Maybe the spacer is for the fuel pump which also takes its drive off an elliptical cam on the same jackshaft.
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I don't want to place blame where it does not belong. The shop I went to told me to replace the condenser and then, if needed, replace the points. My first mistake was not removing the distributor. I dropped the screw for the condenser into the distributor. I rolled the car to get the engine to TDC to remove the distributor and retrieve the screw. I noticed the rotor was not turning. And when I pulled the distributor I found the half missing gear.
Oddly enough, I found the broken piece of gear on top of the shaft in the distributor hole. The mechanic at the shop said it would not be possible for that little of a screw to do that damage. I am pretty sure it was from me rolling the car in gear to get to TDC with an lose screw in the distributor that must have jammed the shaft.
Tuesday I will have the car towed in one shop to have the engine removed. I will then take if to the engine builder's shop. He has more distributors and jackshafts and he is pretty sure he can figure out what happened when he removes the shaft and disassembles the distributor. I think it is my fault, but time will tell.
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The only way I can see your being at fault is if the screw locked the dizzy shaft and you heavily jerked the car when pushing it. It seems unlikely but maybe it is possible. If so, believe me, you're not the only one who has done something simple like that that had severe consequences. Your engine builder should take your distributor apart and check for that possibility first (there would certainly be evidence of that in the dizzy housing if that were the case). He may decide that taking the motor apart may not be necessary.
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I don't want to place blame where it does not belong. The shop I went to told me to replace the condenser and then, if needed, replace the points. My first mistake was not removing the distributor. I dropped the screw for the condenser into the distributor. I rolled the car to get the engine to TDC to remove the distributor and retrieve the screw. I noticed the rotor was not turning. And when I pulled the distributor I found the half missing gear.
Hmm. First let me say you've got a very open and honest attitude in shouldering the blame for the problem, not everyone does the same.
But..... (there's always a "but") I'm not totally convinced although it does sound a good theory. The cam drive gear and the angled drive at the bottom of the distributor shaft are going to be hardened to some extent although I have no idea by how much. That will lead to brittle fracture in a sudden overload and could cause the problems you've seen, so that checks out.
What I'm struggling with is the idea of a soft, small screw jamming the advance weights underneath the distributor and you having sufficient momentum when this happens to strip the gear teeth, especially if they are fully meshed. Unless you're rolling the car downhill or more than just the normal push speed (1mph ?) then I wonder if there's sufficient momentum/kinetic energy to strip the teeth. If anything I'd expect to hit a sudden halt like the brakes were applied. If they did break then I would expect a very expensive and loud "crack"
The other puzzle is finding broken pieces at the distributor, I've no idea how on earth that could happen from pushing the car a few yards at 1-2mph. Could they have fallen there during the dismantling process ?
But as BDA says, if the screw had managed to jam the advance weights there's going to be a very mangled screw and at least one deep score in the distributor body. Like everyone else I'm intrigued to find out the actual cause. I'm going for a loose clamp plate allowing the distributor to jump out of mesh when you're running !
Brian
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IMHO it would take strong pushing in gear to break the distributor to jack shaft gear drive, but it could be possible.
If the distributor were loose in the clamp. surely it would push the distributor up out of the clamp, rather than strip the gears.
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If the distributor were loose in the clamp. surely it would push the distributor up out of the clamp, rather than strip the gears.
Yes, I think it would Alex but once it goes up, unless it managed to clear the mounting hole then vibration of still moving would cause it to drop back down and the lower ends of the teeth would land on a rotating camshaft (in gear - engine still moving if not sparking).
I could see that being enough to chip the teeth even if it did manage to force itself into mesh and carry on with random ignition timing.
Like everyone else here, it's a big unknown and something to puzzle over - it certainly got me going anyway !
Brian
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I don't know about your theory, but the jackshaft gear, oil pump gear and distributor gear all broke in my car once upon a time and it had been running for years. The worst part was that the distributor kept going around. The oil pump did not. I realized I had a problem when the engine seized. It did not scuff the bores, but I had to regrind the crank and replace a few con rods. I also replaced the jackshaft , oil pump (high pressure, not high flow) and ignition system. I have a distributorless ignition.
FYI, I learned that the high volume, high pressure oil pumps on the market today have the tendency to destroy the drive gears. I bought one and then read about the issues, and never installed it. I didn't want to go through that again.
So, your experience is not unique, and it could always be worse😊
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Here is the distributor and piece of the gear I was able to get out with a magnet.
The gentleman who built the engine wants to pull and replace the jackshaft. When he takes apart the distributor and sees the jackshaft he thinks he will be able to tell what happened. The condenser screw that I did remove from the distributor was not mangled. There is a small hole in the side of the distributor body. The mechanic at the shop where the rebuilt engine was installed thinks a counter weight rivet came lose and caused the damage. I should know more later this week or early next week once the engine has been removed and I take it over to the engine builder's shop.
Also, I ordered a FAST electronic ignition kit which, if I have a change of heart and don't open, I can return. Both the mechanic and the engine builder think if I replace the Strombergs with a Weber 2 barrel downdraft it would be an improvement. They both have done it for customers. One shop uses a Datsun 240 manifold that has to be worked and the engine builder has also done it with an MGB manifold that he narrows. In both cases they say the customer liked the change. The engine builder also said the normal carb for this is a Weber 32/36 but he suggests using a Weber 38/38. I like the idea of having an accelerator pump.
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Don’t use those horrible, bolt-on manifolds that’s replace each Stromberg with a DGV,etc. The Strombergs are actually pretty good if the engine isn’t far from stock tune. If it is hopped - up, then flat slide motorcycle carbs work well, very well, way less flow restriction than a DCOE.
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Can you please give some more information on the motorcycle carbs? My engine is hopped up. The builder used a steel crank and bored it out 1mm. He told me it should be around 1705cc. He also changed the cams for street use. I know he had some problems with the idle. He doesn't like the Strombergs as much as he does Weber side drafts when dynoing twin cam engines.
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http://www.v-performance.com/products/air_fuel.html
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On your distributor...
Wow! That's a major failure, quite a bit more than chewed up gears!
I'm confused by your description. Nothing can "fall" off in the distributor and then make its way down into the engine while the distributor is in place. I suppose something could fall in the hole while the distributor is out. It's not a common issue though.
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I think the theory is that rjbaren dropped the condenser screw into the dizzy and the screw jammed the dizzy so that it couldn't turn.
I'm anxious to hear what the engine builder says about it.
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I don't know about your theory, but the jackshaft gear, oil pump gear and distributor gear all broke in my car once upon a time and it had been running for years. The worst part was that the distributor kept going around. The oil pump did not. I realized I had a problem when the engine seized. It did not scuff the bores, but I had to regrind the crank and replace a few con rods. I also replaced the jackshaft , oil pump (high pressure, not high flow) and ignition system. I have a distributorless ignition.
FYI, I learned that the high volume, high pressure oil pumps on the market today have the tendency to destroy the drive gears. I bought one and then read about the issues, and never installed it. I didn't want to go through that again.
So, your experience is not unique, and it could always be worse😊
Did you ever figure out what caused your failure?
What sort of ignition do you have?
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I have seen many distributors in very poor condition. I have never seen one lock and break the distributor drive gear. Chew itself to pieces internally? Sure.
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Wow, that is significant for sure! It is obvious you trust your guy, and I fully suspect you should, but if they rebuilt that distributor I'd be tempted to grab a lot of pictures and see if you can get another expert to opine. Martin Jay at Distributor Doctor (UK) might be someone who has done/seen enough to give you an opinion based on pictures, he's been very helpful to me at various times.
I'd also suggest the Strombergs aren a heckuva lot better than they get credit for being, most of the issues I've found have been related to federal emissions setups or mechanics that just don't have experience with them. If you decide to change, though, and want to unload the Stombergs let me know - an extra set even if just for parts would be welcomed and might help you recoup some of the cost of new ones.
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Since the car is not running I decided to finish my headlight and radiator fan relay installation. Car will go the shop tomorrow.
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Here is the update regarding the distributor. First a quick recap - I dropped the condenser screw into the distributor. Before I removed the distributor to remove the screw, I rolled the car in gear to get the engine to TDC. I also noticed the rotor not turning. I pulled the distributor and found the broken distributor gear and a missing tooth on the jackshaft by taking a photo in the distributor hole.
The engine was pulled at a shop in late September and I took it back to the engine builder who just opened it up this week 12/9/20 to find the gear and jackshaft were damaged by the condenser screw I dropped into the distributor. So, I am the cause of all the destruction as the screw jammed against the body and when I rolled the car in gear, and the damage occurred. The engine builder removed the pan and valve cover and has cleaned everything out and found the bores are clean, the rod and main bearings are also clean and the cams look fine too. He has replaced the jackshaft and distributor gear. Now comes the fun part.
I decided to drop even more money into the car. Since the engine is out and going back on the dyno before reinstallation, I took JB Collier's advice and ordered a pair of Mikuni carbs to replace my recently "Joe Curto" rebuilt Strombergs. I am replacing the water transfer tubes with stainless tubes from RD Enterprises. I have also ordered Spax shocks for the rear to match the fronts. I ordered the Dave Bean cartridge water pump and will be replacing the points with a FAST electronic ignition system.
Lastly, I am have the shop that pulled and will be replacing the engine with a hydraulic clutch setup.
I hope to fill you in on the performance changes if any, with the Mikunis, when the engine goes on the dyno next week. I hate to think what would happen if my wife knew what I was spending on this car.
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Really looking forward to seeing how the Mikunis perform!
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My goodness rjbaren! I’d say you have taken a bad situation and turned it into a good opportunity to make some nice changes! I am looking forward to seeing more reports on the results of all those changes!
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Ouch! (again) Very, very sorry for your loss!
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Drinking the Kool-Aid.
I'm very interested to hear how things work out with the Mikunis.
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Aside from the Mikunis coming up, how close to stock is your engine? I'm interested in Mikunis, too and wonder if the jets and settings you settle on can be used on an otherwise stock TwinCam.
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Like Webers and Dells, the Mikunis are very adjustable. Few differences though. Idle jet covers idle and low speed. Slide cut-away when the main kicks in. The mid-range by the needle-jet (lower mid-range) and needle (higher mid-range). The main for the rest. 4T versions have accel pumps for when the slide moves quickly. Some also have power-jets which help trim the very, very top end (mostly 2T for the pipe effect). The really nice thing is that they are a flat-slide carb so no throttle shaft and butterfly. At WOT, it's a straight, open tube with only a thin needle and a small needle-jet in the air-flow. Look down a Weber or Dell wide open. There's still a lot of junk in there.
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They come from the magical world of motorcycles where carb development was ahead of and continued to evolve after the automotive world abandoned them....
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It's been a while but there has been much progress. At the engine shop (PHP Racengines in Wauconda, IL), the jackshaft was replaced. The distributor was converted to FAST electronic ignition and the Bean water pump went in along with the Mikuni carbs. The engine went on the Dyno and this was the key ingredient in the outcome. When the engine was originally built it made 134 HP at 6100 rpm and 128 lbs. torque at 4700 rpm with Strombergs rebuilt by Joe Curto.
The first Dyno run with the Mikunis on the repaired engine was not good. The engine ran very lean. The Mikunis were (pre-jetted) by Vintage performance before being shipped and extra jets were included, but the mixture was way too lean. So a complete set of main jets were ordered and tried. The engine ran so lean at idle the engine builder thought the engine was problematic. He found a miss on cylinders 1 and 4 which is unusual at idle, and swapped plugs, cap, wires, and then distributor. He couldn't find the miss and removed the engine from the Dyno and removed the head to check. The engine had only 500 miles before I dropped the screw in the distributor after his rebuild and he found nothing wrong. The engine looked perfect inside. So he put it back together and put it back on the Dyno.
The engine made power but the idle circuit was dangerously lean, and believed to be the cause of the miss, so now a complete set of idle jets were ordered. Also, the main jet tubes have five different grooves where the e-clip can be moved to raise or lower the tube to change the how the jet is exposed when the throttle opens. So after many runs and jet changes and checks on the air /fuel mixture gauge the optimum combination was found. The engine builder specializes in Ford race engines and Twin Cams. Built race engine are sent to him from all over the country for tuning. I guess I'm saying he really knows his stuff. He said the Mikunis seem to be very adjustable but they are not as easy to change jets as are the Webers. The Webers have all the jets on top. The Mikunis have jets on top and below in the float bowls so some time the bowls had to be drained and removed to change jets.
The end result was very good. 144 or so HP and 128 lbs. of Torque. I don't have the print out yet to see at what rpms the figures were reached. The engine builder was now happy. He showed me previous Twin Cam runs he had done with Weber carbureted engines and the Mikunis were right there. Most engines were between 140 - 145 HP. By the way, my engine is a 1700cc, plus or minus a few ccs and he showed me runs of similarly built engines.
I delivered the engine to the shop to be reinstalled. As is evident, after I did my chassis restoration, most of the work I have had done has been with my wallet. I don't have the ability or the equipment to go this deep into the car.
I will give an update again when things are back together.
But so far the stainless water transfer tubes are installed and the rear Spax shocks have been installed in the stock rear springs. The adjustable lower control arms from RD Enterprises will also be going in. The last and maybe next most expensive item to be done will be an hydraulic clutch system. This will also be tricky. I got photos of how the system goes together and bought the cylinders. The only problem is the system in the photos is from a Renault. The exhaust is different, the motor mounts are a little different, and the gear linkage maybe on the other side of the engine. The mechanic at the shop said he believes he can make it work, but it will take some more time to fabricate brackets for the slave cylinder.
I have confidence in his abilities. Their shop (Northshore Sportscars in Lake Bluff, IL) have been racing a Renault powered S2 for over twenty years and they win a lot of races at Road America, often time times with the fastest lap of the day. They have made many such modifications to their car over the years so I believe I am good hands.
In for a penny, in a for a pound. Oh boy!
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Great result. The only thing wrong with the Stromberg heads are the Stromberg carbs themselves. Glad the shop took the time to set things up properly.
On the hydraulic clutch, it's extremely important that the clutch slave cylinder be EXACTLY in line with the clutch arm. Even a little bit off to the side and you will get excessive wear in the slave. Mine is not perfect and I have to change my slaves every 5 to 8K. A bit of a pain but the beautiful, light action more than makes up for it.
Also, the master has an automatic adjustment built in (assuming it's a Girling-type cylinder) BUT, you need to adjust the play out properly at the slave end. Otherwise engine vibration will cause it to randomly lose its "hydraulic" adjustment.
Use 1/4" line from the master to the slave. I used an 0.70 master and it works well. Tried an 0.625 and it was quite a bit lighter but the engagement was on the low side. My trans axle is a 395 modified to have the clutch release on the left side.
Here are some photos of my hydraulic clutch install:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-zDjMKL7/0/66b08136/XL/IMG_0551-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-gvLV2VW/0/21ef7a8d/XL/IMG_0658-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-PbBPG22/0/1fae148d/XL/IMG_0659-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-936GGwF/0/685bb8f9/XL/IMG_0660-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-5RfQtRj/0/467dd041/XL/IMG_0570-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-943ChvP/0/4f3a9a96/XL/IMG_0571-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-cVfgtLt/0/5974e8b2/XL/IMG_0564-XL.jpg)
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Great report! Very glad to hear things are moving along well. The numbers sound stout, she will be quite a runner.
Thanks too for the info on fitting/tuning the Mikunis. Very helpful info. I am anxious to hear your thoughts on them once you are back on the road.
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That motor sounds strong! Your builder seems to know what he’s doing! Keep us informed about how she goes together and runs when she’s on the road!
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Here is a picture of the slave cylinder being mounted on a fabricated bracket.
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Here are pictures of the Mikunis.
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That looks great! The clutch slave setup is very nice!
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My question with the slave cylinder is doesn't that interfere with the shift linkage?
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My question with the slave cylinder is doesn't that interfere with the shift linkage?
Good point. I would think that as long as the cylinder and mounting is mostly inside the plane formed by the clutch arm, he's ok but I have a different linkage so I'm probably the wrong one to comment.
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It looks like it is bolted where the shift linkage pivot bracket goes .... At least mine is in that spot.
I see now on your picture that the pivot bracket is still there.
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Since I didn't do the work I cant brag. I believe the mechanic is just inside where the shift linkage passes. The bracket that holds support/swivel in the shift the linkage is what is being fabricated to do two jobs. The bracket should hold the swivel/pivot in the linkage and the slave cylinder. The ideas was to carry the shift linkage and the slave cylinder, while not disturbing the linkage. If he mechanic can pull this off it will be great. I don't like the cable actuated clutch.
As an aside, The mechanic is a 60 something year old mechanic. I have the utmost respect for his abilities. He is a craftsman, not just a parts replacer. The shop owns and drive two race cars and he is the mechanic/driver for these cars too. I worked in a British car shop for a couple of years and I know enough to be dangerous. But I can pretty much tell who can get it done and who can't.
The mechanic at Northshore Sportscars gets it done. Ill keep you posted in the following week.
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this has been a fantastic thread to read. I read every word of every post and learned along the way. I respect how you take credit for mistakes and accept that not everything goes as planned. I once had a friend get stranded by his MGB. We thought we checked everything until we stumbled on the rotor. Though it looked fine and was nearly new, we swapped it to my mini and the problem followed. I've also fought strombergs with enrichment tube seals that leaked and a hole in a diaphragm that was tricky to find.
Your approach to the mikunis and fluid clutch are interesting. I too will continue to follow.
My experience with the water pump is to be expected. My car sat for over 20 years without ever being turned over. I got it running and driving until one day my trans detonated. (whole other story). I literally got the new trans in and dropped the car off the jack stands and my water pump started to drip. I figured it was just a fluke until it dripped more, and more and more. Ends up the inner parts had solidified and broken down. I pulled the entire engine, reinstalled the new (standard) water pump and got to the pulley and realized I had the flange on backwards. Off and out and fixed and this time I got it all the way to starting and it leaked. Two more times until the leak was so slight I let it ride. It finally stopped. As said before; I don't think there is anything wrong with a [correctly installed] factory water pump. Just run the car more than every 20 years!
Thanks again for sharing all you've done with your car. It's both inspiration and fun to hear.
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Here is the engine back in place and a photo of the slave cylinder in its new bracket clearing the exhaust and shift linkage.
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Here is another update. The car is home. It runs and drives quite well. The engine builder requested I bring him the car to analyze the exhaust with the new Mikunis. He said he wants to put a probe in the exhaust to read the the air/fuel mixture? I thought he was going to do it at idle, like an emission test, but I was wrong. His associate Leo Franchi rigged it up installing an exhaust probe and a gauge and we went for a drive. Leo Drove, I sat in the passenger's seat and held the gauge for him to read.
Leo used to be a race car driver and BMW shop owner and he put the car through its paces in a way I would never do. I didn't know a Europa could go so fast. I hadn't fasten my seat belt and wished I had. We were blasting down two lane highways over eighty mph multiple times. OMG, Leo can really get a car going fast in a real hurry. When we finished I was astonished by the way he can drive and the car's performance. Leo he said he was only pushing like 40%. He didn't feel the brakes were good enough to push it harder.
Back to the exhaust gas. It was pretty good. Upon acceleration he loved it. At idle and cruising it is still too lean. There will be more re-jetting of the carbs maybe next week. In my way more docile driving I noticed no matter what gear or where I am in the rev range, just give it more Welly and the car just starts pulling and feels like it will never stop.
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Great report, rjbaren! It sounds like Leo has those Mikunis dialed in pretty good already, but he might get it even better! Can’t wait to see further updates!
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Very cool! Love to see a video of the engine being run through its paces.
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Very cool! Love to see a video of the engine being run through its paces.
...and one of your face in the passenger seat while he's doing it as well!😇
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An update. The next size up Mikuni carb needles ordered from Fox Distributors in St Charles, IL have arrived from California and I have installed them. I was on the richest setting of the previous needles and I was advised to start in the middle of the five grooves of the next size up needle which I did. The car runs even better. I can cruise at 40 MPH in 5th gear now if I choose. I took it back to PHP Racengines shop where Leo Franchi (the race car driver) and I went for another ride with the air fuel mixture rig in the tailpipe while I held the gauge in the passenger seat for Leo to check the mixture readings. I suggested maybe I should drive, but Leo insisted he drive as he needed to feel it. So off we went, blasting around the two lanes and Leo was giggling while accelerating. The numbers on the gauge were right on and Leo said the car is excellent. The car is quite loud but it really sings when Leo runs through the revs, he revs it a lot higher than I ever have. But man that car goes!
Leo still doesn't like my brakes. I have removed the boosters and redone everything with a different mater cylinder. Leo suggests I get a "stickier" set of pads. Any suggestions? (By the way, I have had two other guys from Northshore Sportscars who reinstalled the engine and own and race an S2 Europa and they made no comment about the brakes).
I have also completed the relays for the headlights, and radiator fan and included and override switch replacing the instrument light dimmer on the dash.
Next project is to install the new screw on oil cap from RD enterprises. I have the three ear cap but it leaks unless it is backed off a partial turn and I am not comfortable with that idea. I cut a small gasket and put it under the O-ring on the cap but now it is so tight I need a channel lock to remove and replace the cap.
I also removed some wiring crimp connectors I didn't like at the alternator with proper color coded wires from British Wiring and soldered the connections and re-taped the harness and it looks very closed to original. The new tape is a bit cleaner and shinier, for now.
I have also removed the Tach and sent yesterday to Nisonger for the magic needed to make it work again after installing the FAST electronic ignition. It was always pegged.
This may be the last project I undertake for a while, I hope. I think it's time to do more driving. I keep the rear hood open without the trunk box, and often find myself in the garage just staring at that beautiful motor.
Thanks to everyone for all the help and invaluable information. What a cool car and cool group of people.
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The easiest way to get better feeling brakes is to move the pivot on the brake pedal. More travel = better feel and slightly softer pedal. Old sohc Honda bikes had a too large mc and felt horrible too, zero feel. "Stickier" pads would be a race pad. Not nice when cold, loud, and wear rotors pretty fast. Look into brake pedal ratio.
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You've made fantastic progress. I fully agree; time to do much more driving.
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Once you're completely happy, it would be nice to know the carb set up details.
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Brake feel is subjective, brake performance is not. Find a quiet straight road or parking lot, nothing narrow or tree lined. Try a series of hard stops with you "squeezing" the brake pedal to give time for the weight to transfer to the front. Don't just jump on the pedal. You should be able to lock the fronts but not easily. The rear brakes should not lock before the fronts. When the fronts lock, try backing off slightly to get the fronts gripping again.
So, how were they? Did you find the pressure required to lock the fronts reasonable? Too high? Too low? Did the rear brakes lock after the fronts? Were you able to modulate the brakes? Could you, with a bit of practice, bring the fronts to the threshold of locking and hold them there? Did the brakes fade?
I prefer aggressive street pads and nothing that requires warming up. EBC greenstuff are "good" but they will fade in the mountains. Presently using Mintex 1144s. Haven't tried them in the mountains yet.
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I did some hard stopping today. The front brakes lock before the rears. I seemed to be able to find the threshold where the fronts are about to lock up. I need more time behind the wheels to really get to know what I have. I drove about 500 miles before my distributor screw fiasco and now it feels like a different car. I have driven maybe 150 miles so far so I have a ways to get before I really know this car.
The Mikunis, hydraulic clutch, and the rear lower control arms made a huge difference. The lower control arm had a little bit of a curve on one side so with the engine coming out it was a good time to change them. Now it is straight and adjustable.
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It sounds like things are falling into place! :beerchug: