Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: TurboFource on Tuesday,September 10, 2019, 04:47:42 PM
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Hi to everyone,
My name is Kraig. I can remember the first time I saw a Europa, I think it was 1969 as I saw my first Mach 1 Mustang that day in the same parking lot! I have wanted both ever since. I have owned Mustangs (not a Mach 1) but never a Europa and I think I would like to now own one!
First off I am Europa sized I believe, 5'8" 155 lbs and size 8 shoes ! I have not seen one in person since that day in 1969.
I live on the Eastern Shore of Maryland....is there one around here I could check out/try on for size?
Would one be reliable enough to drive as a fair weather daily driver? I think I really prefer the look of the S1 and S2...but would love the power of a twin cam.
Are transaxle parts available? What about rebuild parts for the Renault engine?
I have always liked small engined cars that handle reasonably well. One of my favorites was a mildly modified 1971 Capri, I currently have an '86 SVO Mustang.
I have watched all of Serge Sleurs videos online and done alot of online searching!
Looking forward to hearing your advice!!
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Turbo :Welcome:. I, like you, have had a Europa dream for almost as long as you. These are rare and unique cars. I found my S2 on Kijiji which is the Canadian equivalent of Craigs list. There are some good Europas still out in the wild. I hope you have luck in finding one. As you know the quality very much depends on how much you spend and how much time you have to spend on a restoration. Happy hunting.
Sandy
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:Welcome: There are a couple of Europa members in South Jersey including one for sale http://www.taylormadeclassiccars.com/vehiclesforsale.html It might be worth a drive from Maryland. S1 and S2s have less room than Twin Cams. But at your height and weight, no Europa model should be a problem. You will find members on this site really passionate about their cars. Drive one and you will want one.
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:Welcome: turbo!
It seems there are a lot of Europas in your general area so hopefully you'll be able to find a nice example you can drive or restore and enjoy!
There are a few here who have and are restoring Renault powered Europas so it seems finding the parts for them is not a problem but from my reading, there are "idiosyncrasies" with them that require particular focus and techniques that are not common to more "conventional" engines. I speak not from personal knowledge but from what I've read. Hopefully those with more experience and knowledge will chime in. The Renault motors are certainly worthy power plants for a Europa. Modifications can can make them very potent machines.
The worst parts availability issues that I'm aware of is the fifth gear on the 365 tranny (supplied on some Twin Cams). In general, most Europas are pretty low mileage and manual trannies that are treated reasonably generally last many miles. To get a better idea of the availablity parts for a particular tranny, give Michel at Alpine-America (http://www.alpine-america.qc.ca/). He would have a good handle on that. Put your French hat on as his accent is very thick. He can also give you information on the Renault motors. Another thing to think about is that there are more modern Renault trannies available. The NG3 is one common tranny swap. Usually alternate trannies require alternate shift linkage and sometimes other modifications but they aren't that drastic and shouldn't scare you away.
A well sorted Europa will be a driving experience unlike any other. The long-time owners on this forum would be excused for being biased but I think this is quote on a Europa auction on bringatrailer.com
says it all:
I have no connection to this car or seller, NMNA etc, but I just want to say that, as some of you know from my online pieces for Hagerty, I just resurrected a ’74 Europa Twin Cam Special that hadn’t run in 40 years, and drove it last weekend to the Lotus Owners Group (LOG) event. I’m a vintage BMW guy used to 2002s, Bavarias, and my 3.0CSi, but I’m here to tell you, driving the Europa, even the ratty heavily patina’d one that I own, is the most fun I’ve had fully-clothed in decades, though I DO have to drive it with my right shoe off due to the pedals being so close together. Anyone who talks about the polarizing styling or throws around that “bread van” label probably hasn’t actually driven one of these. It is a total and completely addictive hoot. Most of the top-end parts are unique to the twin-cam head, but a lot of the bottom end is standard Ford 1600 block stuff, and much of the front end—brakes, tie rods, etc—cross-references to a Spitfire. And between the two major US parts suppliers (RD Enterprises and Dave Bean Engineering), most parts are a phone call away.
To all the people who say that they’ve always wanted one of these, trust me. You won’t be disappointed.
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Daily driver? Sure, as long as keep up with the maintenance.
I'm partial to the early ones as well. You can stuff a Twink in, they did back in the day, but it is a very, very tight fit. Easier to put a Renault crossflow or Toyota engine in. Or, just keep it and enjoy it stock. You're not going to catch the Moms in their 300 hp mini-vans regardless.
Transaxle parts can be found. Bearing, gaskets, seals and synchos are available new. Other parts can be found used. The Hewland made 5th for the 365 is almost unobtainium.
Rebuild parts for the Renault engine are mostly easily obtainable. Original 10.25:1 pistons are scarce but Richard Banks has them for the 1470 engine.
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:Welcome:
Hello Turbo,
I'm sure that a local owner or seller will have a car for you to 'try for size' - (I don't think that you'll have any comfort issues)
Then good luck finding/buying the car that bets suits your requirements.
Mark
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Thanks for the warm welcome!
The NG3 is from a Fuego? I haven't seen one of those in years, is the transaxle hard to find?
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The NG3 is as far as I know of a 18 turbo. You can also go with a NG1. Both NG Gearboxes are not easy to find in Europe so I would imagine it’s even harder in the US but they do pop up sometimes so the only thing you need is time.
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:Welcome: Turbo,
Sounds like you are asking the right questions. I too prefer the look of the S1 or early S2s (Type 46 and 54) before the headlight-height nazis forced a redesign of the front end. I am a fan keeping our cars mostly stock with a few sensible performance/safety/reliability upgrades, but to each their own, and there are some amazing resto-mods on this site. Daily driver? I would avoid rain and snow and have a back-up vehicle available. As far as parts availability, I've found everything I need is out there and available if you look hard enough and are willing to pay for it. As for fit, you are the perfect size for the Europa as long as you are limber enough to wiggle in and out of the drivers door. Good luck on your search.
Tom (aka Surfguitar58)
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:Welcome:
Are you looking for a restoration project or a nicely sorted Europa you can drive and get to know it?
There is an S2 in Atlanta on Craigslist that looks very nice. I would jump on that quickly if your serious.
No affiliation or personal knowledge of this car for sale:
1971 Lotus Europa S2
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/cto/6974791322.html
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Turbo -
The DC Chapter of Lotus LTD is quite active.
You may want to contact them to see different vehicles.
You can view chapters and their contact info at the link below.
https://lotusltd.com/local-chapters/
Good luck.
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The NG3 is as far as I know of a 18 turbo. You can also go with a NG1. Both NG Gearboxes are not easy to find in Europe so I would imagine it’s even harder in the US but they do pop up sometimes so they have boy thing you need is time.
When Richard was running things he usually had them, Lotus Supplies has taken over his parts business and I expect they will have them (http://parts.banks-europa.co.uk/orders_frame.htm).
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Nothing Renault is common over here but you can find 395s from R17Gs and NG3s from Turbo Fuegos if you are patient.
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:Welcome:
I too prefer the older S1 and S2 Europas. Are they a daily driver? Absolutely if you take care of them. I have driven my "daily driver" Europa 8,000 miles this year and just returned from a 1,000 mile road trip.
I'm 5'9'' 155 lbs and fit well so you should be good. Buy the best you can afford.
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Thanks for all the replies! I will be looking for a decent driver when I look for one as I plan to drive it every nice day for work. I would probably restore as I drive it by cleaning and repairing etc. as I go. I like to tinker with things but don't want my first Europa to be an overwhelming project! My background includes welding, machining, precision rebuilds of industrial high speed manufacturing equipment etc. I am currently a boiler and pressure vessel inspector. I would like to at least sit in one etc. before deciding to buy.
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I suspect you'll end up being a very competent owner! Having welding and machining skills are very handy!
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What is a reasonable price to expect to pay for a solid drivable car that needs some work? Patina is ok ;)
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There are so many variables to pricing that you really have to study the market to get a good idea. For the US market, bringatrailer.com is a good place to start. Their Lotus Europa summary graph shows that the majority of cars that sold via BAT in the last couple of years were in the 10-20K range, with outliers at 3K at the low end and 36K at the very high end.
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An S2 will be less than a Twin Cam and a Twin Cam will be Less that a Twin Cam Special. And I wouldn't recommend an S1 as your first Europa. Don't be swayed by low milage. Most Europas sat for years due to the unavailability of parts (in the pre-internet days) or lack of knowledge to repair even a small problem. None of that is a problem today. Support and first hand knowledge is amazing and only a post away. This site especially!! Nearly all parts are sourceable domestically. Finding cars that have been well-sorted out will save you a lot of money in the long run. Very often a well sorted Europa is not that more than one that needs a lot of TLC. There are some amazing deals that come up. If you are looking for a car that is less than perfect cosmetically but runs fairly decent, then I would say $10-14,000 for a nice S2, $12-17,000 for a decent Twin Cam, and $14-20,000 for a well sorted Special. Add 20-30% if the car is exceptional. Desirable colors can add to the price such as a Black JPS Twin Cam Special. And while Europas look great in any color, a yellow will be be worth more than a brown. Originality matters to a certain extent but it is not necessarily that reflective in pricing. And If you want hotter cams, better shocks and suspension, and headers, for many those are a plus. Most owners bought them to drive and that is what matters the most.
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Good to hear that parts are available. I do quite a bit of driving for work and want a car I can drive on every nice day. I have other cars to drive on bad weather days.
My name on here, TurboFource, is because I have had one four cylinder Turbocharged Ford or another since 1988....Will a Renault engine handle a modest amount of boost if build for it? I know the Renault 5 turbos were quite the car!'
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:Welcome:
Kraig, aka turbo !
Whichever model you choose that first sight thought will put a smile on your face.
Probably better to find a driver and have the thrill of driving. I part of most conversations I cannot participate in . Thoughts like do I need this or that ... air conditioning or turbo with nitrous, lol .
These mods sometimes delay a finished package. Just my 2 cents worth.
Dakazman
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Good to hear that parts are available. I do quite a bit of driving for work and want a car I can drive on every nice day. I have other cars to drive on bad weather days.
My name on here, TurboFource, is because I have had one four cylinder Turbocharged Ford or another since 1988....Will a Renault engine handle a modest amount of boost if build for it? I know the Renault 5 turbos were quite the car!'
Since you seem to be so enamored with turbos, I thought I'd mention that when the TCs were still being made or shortly after, someone produced a turbo kit for TCs. I don't remember if I actually saw one or if I only read about it. Dan Gurney had a chain of car shops called "Dan Gurney's Checkpoint USA" IIRC and I have an even vaguer memory that they were the ones who produced the kit. Whoever produced it, you might be able to find some information on it and it could be a starting point for turboing a TC if you get one.
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Here is an S2 that someone turbocharged and chopped off the roof to turn their Europa into a speedster. They used a Rajay turbo used on light aircraft.
https://revivaler.com/lotus-europa-s2-turbocharged-roadster-speedster/
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I saw that one but there aren't any details...such a project would be down the road after getting an Europa and probably a spare motor to build up...
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Take a look at this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-Lotus-Europa/372766268254?hash=item56ca99db5e:g:T68AAOSwVxNdeCCy
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Since on planning to drive it on a regular basis, what kind of mpg can I expect? I would imagine with the excellent coefficient of drag and small displacement, a Europa does fairly well with mpg!
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Take a look at this.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1974-Lotus-Europa/372766268254?hash=item56ca99db5e:g:T68AAOSwVxNdeCCy
That's a nice one. Once again, as with most cars in this group and those I've seen for sale, it is missing from the registry. (http://lotus-europa.com/regspcl.html ) Would love to see this registry become active again.
Tom
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When mine was stock and "new", it would get 30 mpg on the highway no matter how fast I went (quite often 90 mph). I don't remember calculating city mileage.
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I may have mine at Don Butler Garage Tour on 10/5/19.
Heather Rd Port Deposit, MD
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My daughter is having a house warming party that day. I will keep on the look out for an opportunity to check one out!
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Plans might have changed. What is the Don Butler Garage Tour?
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Check out the Lotus PALS wed site.
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Garage tour sounds interesting! I am going to try to be there! When will you be there Bruce?
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Anyone going to Dan Butler Garage Tour?
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I am as long as the weather cooperates as it’s a long drive for me.
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S2 for sale:
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/cto/d/san-jose-lotus-europa-s2/6984274361.html
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Nice, kind of far away!
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Nice, kind of far away!
Looks like a nice S2.
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Do you think it is better to go through a dealer than an individual?
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Do you think it is better to go through a dealer than an individual?
I think the ideal scenario is to buy a car from an knowledgeable individual close enough to you that you can inspect the car and ask a lot of questions before negotiating a price.
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Unless you are buying a basket case, have it inspected! Preferably by a professional with at least some experience with the marque. A knowledgeable amateur will do in a pinch but bear in mind that one person's restored is another's basket case. Frankly, in my 35 years in the business, long distance purchases of un-inspected vehicles rated good to excellent seldom results in a happy purchaser. I have literally rebuilt dozens of other people's "just rebuilt" engines. Most car owners, who should know better, think their POS is worth the latest auction price for a professional, no-expense-spared example.
You would not believe the number of people who bring their cars for an inspection AFTER they purchased it. We had one chap pick up an MGB -- freshly painted in retail-red -- drive it 800 miles to our door, only to find it was completely rusted out: pop-riveted floors, air where sills were supposed to be, and the body a cunning replica in body filler. We paid him $200 for the running gear parts. We then had it parked outside and dozens of people stopped and asked if it was for sale!
When I bought my S1 basket case, the seller figured the frame was fine:
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-qhn3drN/A
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-Fht6qsp/A
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-Fht6qsp
I knew the frame wasn't good but I will admit I foolishly thought it might be salvageable but dipping and blasting soon showed otherwise. In the seller's defence, the frame is tough to get a look at in an S1.
FOR GOODNESS SAKE GET IT INSPECTED !!!!
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Thanks JB! Your name looks familiar.....are you on sites for other makes of cars?
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Wow, quite the project JB! Though I can weld I do not want my first Lotus to be a huge project I can't drive for years!
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I totally agree with JB. Budget for a sum of over $20k. Do like I am doing and buy a car cheap and then spend to get it road worthy or get an inspected car for the going price and drive it. I would start by finding a Lotus expert and then look for a car.
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Maybe you saw the feature they did on me in America's Most Wanted?
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This place is in Maryland and specializes in vintage Loti.
http://www.unionjackexotics.com/index.html
Ted Taylor is a member of the forum and has two Europas for sale. He is in South Jersey.
http://www.taylormadeclassiccars.com/vehiclesforsale.html
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Isn't the garage tour next weekend at Don Butler's? Is he the one you mention?
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:FUNNY:
I doubt there are that many people in the US who want good technical advice about classic sports cars!
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Being younger and NEVER making any mistakes...I purchased mine sight unseen from another mechanic I worked with who blew the engine and was getting married soon.
It’s was love at first sight!
Never wrong ! No regrets!
Dakazman
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Of course the ideal situation is to look at the car in person and bring an expert along. That is if you are lucky enough to live in an area where Europas actually show up for sale. I live in South Florida and have been following Europa sales a couple times a week for the last five years. During those five years, a total of 3 have showed up for sale in Florida: a S1a which sold locally for $27,500 and went to the UK; a Frankenstein S2 which barely looked like a Europa in Tampa on eBay; and very clean 1974 Black TCS which sold for for $26,500 in Jacksonville. During the 12 months I was looking for a Europa for purchase, the only Florida car available was the '74 Black TCS and by the time I called about it, it was sold. My only choice was to look nationally.
My budget did not include flying in with an expert to a couple of different cities in the U.S. But as a college professor, I know how to research and to ascertain due diligence. There were about 15 Europas available nationally at the time. I narrowed my search to three. I requested Vin numbers and copies of the Titles of those cars and course lots of photos and videos. From the vehicle titles, I was able to obtain the names of the most recent previous owners and via the internet I was able to contact them by telephone. I figured they had no reason not to be honest because their cars were already sold. I ran searches on all three Vin numbers and found previous times the cars were for sale and a fair amount of useful information. One of the cars, the previous owner had an actual website dedicated to its restoration, pages of information. Two of the cars were also documented on lotus-europa.com giving me even more information.
When I finally decided on the one I wanted, I wrote Andy Graham at Lotus Archives and asked him to email the information so I could get it ASAP to verify what I might actually purchasing. When he emailed me back he told me that my TCS was one of nine painted in L14 Colorado Orange. I was happy with my choice. I had researched the dealer, researched the car, spoken to the previous owner, and researched the seller who sold it to the previous owner. The car had spent all of its driven life in California with a stop in Texas on its way to the Classic Car dealership in Ohio who specialized in Exotics and had only positive reviews. Yes there are shady people who sell crappy cars on eBay and Craigslist but that doesn't mean that there are not legitimate dealers or sellers on sites like on BAT where experts do chime in. As a matter of fact, I have seen members of this forum chime in on discussions during the bidding of Europas on BAT. Maybe I just got lucky or maybe due diligence paid off. Just my opinion, that is what makes this forum great.
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Hello TurboFource,
if you have the budget and you're looking to buy a good/restored car, I would follow the example of literarymadness.
Do as much homework as possible and factor in some travelling to find the right car for your money.
With a limited budget and seeking an S1 (rare here in the UK) I bought a project car from a US member on this site.
I wouldn't buy a supposedly 'roadworthy' S1 (or any vehicle) without seeing it in the flesh as you've no idea what you may get
One person's description of their car as 'totally original with patina' may be another person's idea of a scrapyard wreck...
Mark
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I bought and rean Matthew Vale's Essential Buyers Guide for the Europa....is there any other books I should purchase and read ?
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You might check out John Bolster's The Lotus Elan and Europa: A Collector's Guide.
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Vale's book has a lot of "as found" photos. There are some photos of correctly equipped and detailed cars but it doesn't tell you which are which. Don't use it as a guide.
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It was not as informative as I was hoping it would be.....
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Google is your friend. I have some period photos posted on my site:
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/
Check out the registry here:
http://lotus-europa.com
Many of the entries have photos posted.
Quite a few period articles, sales literature, etc in the literature section.
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The book jbcollier is referring to is a different book by Matthew Vale called Lotus Europa: Colin Chapman's Mid-engine Masterpiece. His "Buyer's Guide" was a stopgap book for his most recent aforementioned book.
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Thanks for the correction.
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Checked out your link JB , thanks! The magazine articles seemed rather harsh about the Europa, are they that bad (I don't believe critics without checking things out myself, they are spoiled)? I plan to be at the garage tour next weekend so hopefully I will see some Europas in person :)
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Read this Road and Track article from 1970
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a7579/lotus-europa-s2-classic-drive/
Road and Track has always loved Europas. Here are two more from John's link.
http://lotus-europa.com/literature/rt0772.html
http://lotus-europa.com/literature/rt1173.html
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Google is your friend. I have some period photos posted on my site:
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/
Check out
JB I spent so much time going thru your build, appreciating every photo and thinking how to incorporate your achievements.
Dakazman
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Thanks, it’s a work in progress. After a few passes the beefed up AC belt drive system is working properly. The cable shifter worked out perfectly first go — a bit of an unusual occurrence. Trying to bump the idle speed during AC operation is not provng easy. Those 4 big throats mean the throttle hardly moves at all to bump the idle up a few hundred rpm. I’m now trying a hand throttle using vernier aircraft controls. Fall is here and winter not far behind so I’ll have lots of time to refine things over the winter.
I’m what is known as a “lemon” engineer in the trade. A true engineer designs something and it works with minimal fettling. A lemon engineer draws it up, makes it and then has to “suck it” and see how it works. That’s me to a “T”. I do most of my thinking with my hands.
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What are the major problem areas to look for in a Europa? What simple upgrades would you do to make it more reliabel?
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Turbofource asked “Are they really that bad?”
Well, it depends on your perspective.
My all time favourite Europa magazine article is from Car and Driver when they tested an S1 in New York City... in late fall. Wet, cold conditions meant lots of problems with windows fogging and troubles trying to get rain-coat-wearing, American giants in and out of it. A fixed window Europa is about as bad as it gets in those conditions. The article starts here:
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-WxFHpXr/A
However, lose the rain coats, humid weather and stop trying to torture Kelloggs-eating, freaks of nature and it’s actually a fine car. Like many period race cars, you adapt to it. It does not adapt to you. For some that is an insurmountable barrier. They don’t get beyond the gymnastics required on entry nor the resulting hubcap-height view of the world.
Once happily ensconced, you need to drive with thoughtful, careful precision. It does not pay to lift the throttle near the cornering limit. Nor is it wise to let your attention wander while sharing the four lane with Hummers, semi trailers and assorted other land-yachts.
In theory we all want what the Europa delivers in spades. In practice, not many are actually willing to put up with fogged windows and calisthenics to get to the promised land.
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What are the major problem areas? Putting aside issues with 40+ year old cars in general, the main issues are rear suspension and cooling. In this regard, later cars are better than earlier cars.
The rear suspension works, and works very well. However, it requires much higher maintenance than a “regular” car. It’s an adapted design from a race car and requires similar maintenance. U-joints are subject to suspension loads and last a relatively short time, say less than 15k — later TC/S have larger joints which last longer. Check your u-joints for play every time you change the oil. Any play, replace them. Check the half shift shimming every oil change as well. Rear suspension rubbers fail, etc. Easily repaired if you keep a regular eye on things.
The Achilles heel is the rear wheel axle sourced from the 40 hp Sunbeam Imp. If you follow the service manual religiously, it is just ok. Skimp, and it will fail with the rear wheel making a bid for freedom. There are alternates but they are not cheap nor easy to fit.
The cooling system is marginal at best. Cool, humid climate and you’ll never notice a problem. First make sure the cooling system is clean and clear with fresh, mixed coolant. Next fit a better radiator fan. The early blades actually run backwards are ridiculously inefficient. You can get an aftermarket rad fan for an 1980s Mercedes that is very powerful and reasonably priced. Makes a huge difference.
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Will reducing the loads on the u-joints with a twin link rear suspension increase their longevity and take the loads off the transaxle and reduce the need for shimming? It seems this would be a worthwhile upgrade. Electronic ignition also would be worthwhile. How is the charging system? Is an upgrade needed?
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Yes, somewhat. I did exactly that without regret. But, it still will require regular checks and sooner than usual u-joint replacement.
Europas are not, and cannot be made into, Mazda Miatas or Toyota MR2s. They are inexpensive cars based on race cars of questionable reliability. I run mine long distances and perform extensive maintenance after every major trip. Think about this carefully. Any Europa is an ongoing project, requiring extensive maintenance even after a complete renovation.
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Hi Turboforce,
To underline what John's posted it often comes as a surprise to read the original service schedules for these cars. For example - oil change every 3,000 miles or 3 months, grease the UJs every 3 months, etc. 6 months ? renew air and servo filters, fill a grease gun with hypoid 90 & do the front trunnions. Plus the usual checks, repacking of front wheel bearings, changing plugs and points if required, etc. Every 3 years you're supposed to overhaul the brakes completely and fit new washers, seals and brake hoses, strip and overhaul the servo, etc.
Not something we're used to with modern cars and I suspect the schedules were forgotten by the second or third owners of the cars, hence the "unreliable" tag that Lotus often received. These cars were designed & built in a high maintenance era.
You can improve on this of course, electronic ignition (but don't forget to oil those distributors !) synthetic oils with longer intervals, etc. But some stuff, like the grease guns, you're stuck with. But it's a hobby, right ? ;)
Brian
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Indeed it is 8) I want a car that I can tinker with and make "improvements".
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Indeed it is 8) I want a car that I can tinker with and make "improvements".
Trust me, you'll get plenty of "tinkering" with one of these :)
Brian
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I’ve been carping at but but I absolutely love my S1. Just want to make sure you know what you’re getting into.
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Had some unexpected financial "challenges" lately. Good thing was I had the money, bad thing is I need to save again :(
Hopefully in the spring the search will resume for an S2! I will still be researching etc.in the mean time! Thanks to all who answer my questions!