Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Members Cars => Topic started by: DreamsOfA47 on Monday,September 05, 2022, 09:54:42 PM
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I finally did it! I've acquired a lotus Europa project! Grumblebuns was kind enough to allow me to purchase his 1967 S1A, 460433 and now I can begin building me dream car: a Lotus 47 potentially powered by a Mazda Rotary engine!
Plans are made to be changed, but as it stands now my plan is to complete the car in 2 main stages. Stage 1 will be to get the car running and driving and usable as reliable as a Renault-powered mid-60s Lotus can be! Stage one will also (ideally) involve the addition of a full roll cage and twin gas tanks with Le Mans style gas caps above NACA ducts a la the Type 47GTs. Stage 2 (if ever possible) will be a true Type 47 conversion. The current thinking (dreaming rather) is to get a Type 47 frame and full suspension from a company such as Kelvedon Lotus Ltd. to make as accurate a Type 47 as possible. If that could be accomplished then a FG200 transaxle would need to be acquired and then mated to a Mazda rotary engine. If a rotary swap won't work I'd gladly settle for a Twin Cam. If stage 2 is ever viable it will be many years and many thousands of dollars down the road. So with all that established, it's time to begin stage 1.
The car is actually in really good shape. By not making sure the car was out of gear as we tried to push it along we know the engine turns well. The body appears straight and complete, though the original boot and bonnet locks have been replaced with quite crappy locks of a different type. Ideally those will be replaced by straps or Oddie fasteners but they're secure enough for now. The driver's side door lock button works well, but the passenger side button isn't correct in the slightest and doesn't even have a lock or keyhole. The door glass has had the hinge system removed and the windows have been bonded in. Overall though the car is in great shape! I'm very fortunate the car has been so well looked after, but like any 55 y/o project it has some issues...
Firstly I'm going to tackle the brakes. The left rear forward brake shoe had the brake pad delaminate from the backing so that had to be removed to allow the car to roll. More pressing than a bad shoe is the need to have the master cylinder rebuilt. In removing the master cylinder I had to cut the hard line that ran from the MC to the T-block on the frame as someone had completely rounded the fitting and I had no way to get it off otherwise. The line was also far too rusty for me to trust so that'll likely have to be custom made to bend around the steering rack.
Aside form the brakes the biggest issues are the wiring. Suffice it to say I was told when Joji tried to drive the car 10 years ago or so, the tach began to smoke due to some issue with the ignition portion of the harness. I'd like to just replace that with a new OEM style reproduction. Lastly the frame has some rot it seems. I looked over it the best I could and it seemed to be solid all the way around, except at the forward face of the front T. It appears that the body has delaminated from the bottom of the forward face of the T and allowed moisture to pool there. Nasty, flaky rust can be seen all along the bottom edge...
Well y'all, its time to get to work! My goal is to at least have the thing driving well enough to attend the Motorcars On Main Street car show in Coronado, CA in April of 2023. Here goes!!!
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These are the pics I've taken of the delimitation and rust on the frame and by the master cylinder mounting point.
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Lastly to complete my introduction my biggest 47GT inspiration are the chassis 47GT-09, 47GT-77 and this video of Don Hogue kicking some serious butt at Sonoma in 47GT-75! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6VFzh9b4yE
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Good luck!
The more I do on TCST the more I find to do….
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That sounds pretty ambitious! I would point you to three people here.
First is jbcollier resto-modded his S1 and that coupled with his encyclopedic knowledge of cars should make him a great source of information.
Second is Serge who I think is busy with a new business and family but he did some videos of what he did with his S1. They should be very useful (https://www.youtube.com/user/sleursmotorsport/videos). I think you can get in touch with him using a PM or email (click on the envelope in his profile).
Lastly is RoddyMac who did his own conversion from a type 54 to his interpretation of a 47 including fabricating the frame and suspension. The thread where the shows what he did starts here: http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=497.msg3241#msg3241
Good luck with your project! :welder:
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Congradulations! I had a similar plan, get it running if possible, maybe turbo it and be happy. Engine was seized and I went all out. These are big projects that consume a lot of time. Have fun and stay on it.
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My 46 was literally scrap so I had no qualms about doing my own thing. However, I knew that by going that way I was going to spend more money, and end up with a car worth less, than a stock build. Just something to keep in mind. If you are interested in having your cake and eating it as well, either a stock restoration or a 47 conversion would be the way to go. Either would give you a fun car to drive and reasonable resale value. No, you won’t recover your costs unless you count all your labour as donated.
If you go the 47 route, please do not fit a Mazda rotary. They generate enormous amounts of heat, a problem in a Europa, and, frankly, nothing says slap-dash more than a Mazda rotary conversion. I’m sure there are many good ones out there but they have a reputation in the business.
Finally, you have corrosion in your chassis, very normal in a 46. You are going to have to remove the chassis in order to deal with it properly. There are three ways to go: cut it out the bottom, cut out the firewall and console and take it out the back, or separate the two chassis halves (bottom and top) which was how they put it together at the factory. It will be a lot of work and you would have to do it again if you subsequently decide to convert it to a 47. I would decide on that and only change the chassis once.
Anyway, nice car, good project, and all the best. I absolutely adore my 46.
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Y'all are awesome with all the encouragement! Just to clarify some things so y'all know from what thought process I'm approaching this: My car knowledge come from spendingh the better part of 7 years or so working for a man heavily involved in vintage racing. He's a regular racing with HSCC, SVRA and HMSA as well as an almost yearly participant in the Monterey and Sonoma Historics. I've had the chance to work on some real vintage Trans-AM mustangs and Camaros as well as a McLaren M8D and a coupe real Greenwood corvettes. The shop specialized in race-prepping vintage cars and restoring classics, in particular old (mostly C2 and C3) Corvettes. I know how much of a nightmare disassembly and restoration can be! :'( Thankfully I've also learned many MANY things to avoid. Also being so involved in vintage racing has had me dreaming of participating and a proper Type 47 replica is definitely a dream of mine and that's the direction I want to head.
I fully understand all the warnings about doing it right the first time. I've been reading all I can about chassis removal from S1s and I've decided for what I'd like to do, a bottom removal would be best, as well as a conversion to an S2 style of chassis-to-body mounting (like 47GT-09 has undergone) so repairs and service can be done much more easily. There's nothing worse than a race car that's hard to work on! :o
I know some people may be upset that I'm taking a pretty clean and together S1 and hoping to turn it into a racer, but I'd like to sell any parts that I take off and are salvageable to those restoring another S1. This forum has showed me how badly S1 frames can rot out and I know replacements are difficult to come by stateside or expensive to get from the UK!
Stage 2 of the plan is definitely far off if its ever feasible so Stage 1 is definitely the focus. I'm not yet too worried about the rot the frame seems to have, but its location on the T is concerning as the T takes the front suspension loads and the fact that the rot will only ever get worse means I may be in for some serious structural problems. I'll have to begin to asses it more to see what I'm really up against, but I don't want to replace the frame with another S1 frame if my goal is a Type 47 frame some day. I may not have any other option though.
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Best of luck with your Series 1. You're obviously aware of the chassis rust problem and are facing a replacement in the future. I would concur with JB that a rotary engine doesn't fit the 47 image. Consider a twin cam or Ford Zetec. If vintage racing is in your future check what engine rules you need to follow. I went the Zetec route with my Series 1, have 180hp, and a 47 looking body.
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Looking at your photos, I would suspect that your chassis would be repairable. It is the bottoms that rust. As long as there is no sign of accident damage, it’s all just straight forward sheet metal work. Come the worst, you can modify an S2 frame. That’s what I did.
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Swift that car is beautiful! What kind of wheels are those? and what size?
Vintage racing specs are very restrictive and I'df almost certainly have to run a twin cam to be legal. Some organizations like the SVRA are more lenient than others and they allow either the Renault or Twin Cam engines with any period chassis and suspension mods. They'd also allow a Spyder frame actually with a weight penalty.
It's a bummer that a rotary conversion carries so much negative connotation. I actually daily drive a 1983 RX7 with an NA rotary and it seems like a great engine swap! The excess heat I know to be a concern but the small size and light weight seem like a great fit for a Europa. I do understand that many previous builds have been lacking quality but an NA 250hp rotary engine in the 47 frame with that formula-car style rear suspension sounds amazing to me. But I'm totally loving the idea of a period correct 47 build as well. I guess I have plenty of time to decode on a power plant! ;D
Its great to hear that the repairs may be straightforward! Modifying an S2 chassis also seems like a reasonable option. Those of you who have S1s, have you modified them to make the chassis easily removable? Or have y'all decided to stay with the glassed-in chassis for the idiosyncrasy and originality of it? Perhaps a longer term solution for my current rot situation would be to modify the body to fit the chassis S2 style and repair the original chassis. Considering I'm years way from a affording a frame swap that may be a good idea. Any opinions on that, y'alll?
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S1s are stiffer overall than the later cars. This is a combination of thicker fibreglass and the fact the chassis is more thoroughly attached to the body. I stayed with the stock set-up. That said, converting to the out-the-bottom style means a potential future 47 chassis is a much less daunting project.
Sorry to rain on your parade but I just have seen so many poorly-done, never-finished, or never-developed rotary transplants. Just want you going in with your eyes wide open.
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You mentioned putting in a roll cage. I thought I’d remind you to look at Serge’s videos. He had a video where he builds a cage for his car.
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JB, I understand that the bonded chassis made the cars notably stiffer and though that does wonderful form a handling perspective, the extra work required if the chassis ever needs to come out perhaps makes it less than ideal. While at Joji's I did notice that the fiberglass was thicker on the S1 than the S2 or TCs and that inspires a little more confidence in its strength, however weak it may be objectively.
I wouldn't call it raining on my parade, but I thank you for opening my eyes to that potential pitfall! It makes sense to me why a rotary engine would be a great swap into a Europa, but it also makes sense how many half-baked attempts have been made at it! An all-aluminum Duratec 2L engine also sounds like an attractive option for a swap...
I love all the Sleurs Motorsports videos! He documents his progress so well and I know I'm going to keep heading back to his channel for tutorials and tips. A roll cage is defiantly on the priority to-do list, both due to its necessity in racing and its added safety for driving in general. A fiberglass tub may be light, but its surely not a safety cell!!
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Here's a pic of the underside of chassis 47GT-09 showing its open-bottom conversion and I have to say in concept I'm definitely a fan. The more I think about it, though the need for body-off work seems few and far between if the chassis is solid and the car hasn't been wrecked. Frankly if a Europa has been wrecked badly enough cutting the frame out is the least of concerns!
This is the link to Fantasy Junction's ad for the car and the pics are amazing and cover all of the car. Its been both my biggest inspiration and my biggest source of info for the rear powertrain and suspension packaging!
https://www.fantasyjunction.com/sold/1966-lotus-47/photos
Does anyone know of a real 47GT in SoCal I may be able to go see some day? Or someone who owns one and is willing to provide help if needed with the little details?
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In my looking over the car I've found another issue. It seems that the front upper edge of the passenger door has split. Knowing how much of a nightmare getting the doors off these cars is I'm hopeful I can just pack the split with resin and clamp it with some small clamps. have any of y'all had to affect this repair on your cars?
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I had a split like that at a different place on one of my doors. Cleaned up the mating surfaces with sandpaper, and like you suggested, glue and clamp it. I used polyester resin. But you might want to use epoxy if in doubt.
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I had a split like that at a different place on one of my doors. Cleaned up the mating surfaces with sandpaper, and like you suggested, glue and clamp it. I used polyester resin. But you might want to use epoxy if in doubt.
Wonderful! Thanks for the insight. I don't mind the idea of epoxy resin just to be sure whatever bonds does so as strongly as possible. It won't be easy prepping or clamping the surfaces but the crack opens and flexes noticeably when the door is open-end or moved so I'd like to affect some kind of effective repair sooner rather than later. :-\
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Polyester does not have as good of a mechanical bond as epoxy. Polyester will not cure on top of epoxy. Just saying, don't get silly with epoxy then try to do polyester repairs over. You would have a decent chance with poly if it was roughed up. They sell cheap very narrow diamond 1/8 shank rotatory bits. I would clean it up before filling with anything then rinse out with acetone or denatured.
As for the doors coming off. Based on your desired outcome for the car, I would plan on Banks hinges. I have a video somewhere on Youtube putting a door back on with Banks hinges. Very easy.
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:I-agree:You won't regret changing the hinges. I went the RDENT stainless route. They work okay. Colin's engineers must have been having a bad day when door hinges were on the table. Very hard to do solo.
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Polyester does not have as good of a mechanical bond as epoxy. Polyester will not cure on top of epoxy. Just saying, don't get silly with epoxy then try to do polyester repairs over. You would have a decent chance with poly if it was roughed up. They sell cheap very narrow diamond 1/8 shank rotatory bits. I would clean it up before filling with anything then rinse out with acetone or denatured.
As for the doors coming off. Based on your desired outcome for the car, I would plan on Banks hinges. I have a video somewhere on Youtube putting a door back on with Banks hinges. Very easy.
I'll ask my old shop what they think as their bread and butter is restoring old Corvettes. If it's working fiberglass they've prolly done it and have some opinion. I guess the most important question is what did Lotus use at the factory when building the body? Is the body held together with fiberglass or epoxy resin?
I understand the need to change hinges before mine become problematic, but removing the doors really wasn't part of the short term agenda! :'( My biggest concern for repairing the damage in situ is the ability to clamp the area sufficiently to allow it to bond and cure. I'm not sure what I'll have access to that can get in-between the door and the door jam and clamp that section, but the door almost clamps itself when closed... I know as far as my problems go this one is small potatoes but I still want to get it fixed ASAP before it cracks more as the door is used!
Is there a concensus on which style go hinge is better; the banks brass vs the stock style stainless steel?
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Hello JB,
could you explain the third technique ('separate the two chassis halves (bottom and top) which was how they put it together at the factory') as I'm not familiar with that process?
Regards,
Mark
My 46 was literally scrap so I had no qualms about doing my own thing. However, I knew that by going that way I was going to spend more money, and end up with a car worth less, than a stock build. Just something to keep in mind. If you are interested in having your cake and eating it as well, either a stock restoration or a 47 conversion would be the way to go. Either would give you a fun car to drive and reasonable resale value. No, you won’t recover your costs unless you count all your labour as donated.
If you go the 47 route, please do not fit a Mazda rotary. They generate enormous amounts of heat, a problem in a Europa, and, frankly, nothing says slap-dash more than a Mazda rotary conversion. I’m sure there are many good ones out there but they have a reputation in the business.
Finally, you have corrosion in your chassis, very normal in a 46. You are going to have to remove the chassis in order to deal with it properly. There are three ways to go: cut it out the bottom, cut out the firewall and console and take it out the back, or separate the two chassis halves (bottom and top) which was how they put it together at the factory. It will be a lot of work and you would have to do it again if you subsequently decide to convert it to a 47. I would decide on that and only change the chassis once.
Anyway, nice car, good project, and all the best. I absolutely adore my 46.
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At the factory, the body was made in two pieces with a floor pan and upper. The chassis with harness and brake piping was sandwiched between the two. The upper and floor sections were bonded together. The chassis itself was not bonded to the body sections except the rear loop. The bonded together body was extensively riveted to the chassis.
I have not separated the upper and lower sections myself. I took mine out the back: makes quite the mess but my chassis had been hamfistedly repaired and the surrounding body hacked up already so no loss there. Randall Fehr restored an S1 and did separate the body. If the body is in good condition, this allows for a much cleaner chassis change and fewer body repairs required afterwards.
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If you get to a body off it's worth fiberglassing the S1 tunnel to make the body like an S2 for future body removals. I did that but kept the bellypan below the engine.
My wheels are 7 x 13" American Racing Vector. Sadly they haven't been available in 13" for many years now.
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I guess the most important question is what did Lotus use at the factory when building the body? Is the body held together with fiberglass or epoxy resin?
Is there a concensus on which style go hinge is better; the banks brass vs the stock style stainless steel?
100%, Lotus used polyester resin(fiberglass) If you use polyester to attach, laminate, etc on old fiberglass, it will need to be roughed up good.
Here's my door video. Re installing a pre adjusted doors is only this easy with Banks hinges. I had my doors set perfect, removed, painted the car and put them back on just as fast as in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVGllr0Efbg
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JB and Fanatic I think these undated pics of 47GT-09 from the Fantasy Junction link show how the body was separate for roll cage installation and may illustrate the method. It seems awfully labour intensive but it makes sense for work such as fabricating a roll cage or swapping out a frame. I'm still a big fan of the idea of dropping the frame out of the bottom and modifying the body to make it separable like an S2, but when when the time comes for a proper build this method is looking much more promising to me now!
Swift I love your wheels! Honestly for street driving and the like I'd love a set of 15"s for slightly better tire selection and it seems American Racing sells those wheels without bolt holes if desired. I may have to get a set and take them to a machine shop way down the road. For racing one day I'd like the proper 13x10s but that's a whole other situation.
Clifton thats important news! I'll talk to my guys and see what they have to say about it but if the car is polyester I'd like to repair it that way as well. Banks hinges does seem like the upgrade that's needed, but I wasn't planning on that work or money yet! :'( I may just tray and remove, fix and reinstall the passenger door soon and work on the driver's door at a later date
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Hello JB,
I would imagine that splitting the body is a difficult task but it would be very good for aligning everything after installing the repaired chassis.
Mark
At the factory, the body was made in two pieces with a floor pan and upper. The chassis with harness and brake piping was sandwiched between the two. The upper and floor sections were bonded together. The chassis itself was not bonded to the body sections except the rear loop. The bonded together body was extensively riveted to the chassis.
I have not separated the upper and lower sections myself. I took mine out the back: makes quite the mess but my chassis had been hamfistedly repaired and the surrounding body hacked up already so no loss there. Randall Fehr restored an S1 and did separate the body. If the body is in good condition, this allows for a much cleaner chassis change and fewer body repairs required afterwards.
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Very cool project. Good luck with it. I am restoring my type 54 and adding a few 47 styling cues.
That dark blue 47 is amazing! I will use that photo for inspiration :)
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Hello all! I come with a new update on the project. When I was discussing the state of the Europa with Joji he mentioned to me that he had driven the car once and that on the drive the wiring behind the dash began smoking. I finally got around to examining what the potential problems may be, and discovered this mess of crispy spaghetti! I'm now planning on replacing the wiring harness completely as I'm not sure the original one is repairable. I'd like an OEM replica harness, but something like a Painless brand harness is also promising, though the need to terminate and then wrap an aftermarket harness makes a complete OEM harness much more appealing.
Do any of y'all have any advice for me on the wiring side of things? Does anyone have an S1 or Renault powered Europa wiring harness that I may purchase?
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More crispy spaghetti
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British Wiring seems to sell replacement wiring harnesses (http://www.britishwiring.com/category-s/205.htm).
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What type of pasta sauce does one use on crispy spaghetti wiring? To keep the Lucas smoke inside the insulation I replaced my entire harness with one from Autosparks in England. It worked great, same colour coding. The front turn signal and side marker wires were the only missing items, (not enough length).
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Pasta sauce… :FUNNY:
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What type of pasta sauce does one use on crispy spaghetti wiring? To keep the Lucas smoke inside the insulation I replaced my entire harness with one from Autosparks in England. It worked great, same colour coding. The front turn signal and side marker wires were the only missing items, (not enough length).
One definitely uses something salty like tears for spaghetti that crispy!! :FUNNY:
I've seen that British Wiring has something, as does Kelvedon Lotus and I'll check out Autosparks as well. I have 2 weeks until payday so I can use that time to do some good research before making a purchase.
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If your pulling the entire harness out anyway you can easily replace the wires that are damaged. I dont know the time frame of your project however, to replace one wire at a time while your doing other jobs will be much easier. Are you doing a dash replacement, adding additional components, if so you may want to hold off.
You can also build a build board and run in wires on it. Just my 2 cents
Dakazman
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Here is a simplified version of the S1A wiring diagram that I simplified and clarified.
I can send you a higher quality version if you want .
Dakazman
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Sorry for not noticing before but the rad fan relay wiring is incorrect. The S1/2 use the rad fan from a Renault. It is a puller fan. To make it work, Lotus wired it backwards. The red wire goes to ground and the black to power. Dumb, I know but that’s the way it is.
It’s not unusual for people to wire it “correctly” and then have overheating issues at speed because the air pressure generated by road speed cancels the fan’s efforts.
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I went with the Autosparlks offering for the new wiring harness and its already arrived, 2 days early in fact! Though it its possible to fix the individual bad wires in the harness i figured that it may be a good idea to get a new harness given that its made with modern components and construction methods and its also not 56 years old! Aside form needing to replace the fuel pump and brake master cylinder (as well as bleed the brakes) the wiring was the biggest hurdle from getting the car running, at least that I'm aware of now. I hope to begin pulling the harness and getting to swapping them this weekend. The project has no time frame and I have no idea how long it'll take me to get it done but at least I can begin!
Dakazman yes I would appreciate you sending me a higher res version of the wiring diagram! Thats something I'll definitely need consult throughout this process.
JB I'll be sure to double check that I wire it in the correct orientation and if I run into overheating issues I'll double check that first! ;)
Related to the wiring does anyone know of a company that may have a set of door lock barrels and matching ignition barrel? I'd really like to only need one key. If no one has them all as a set, does anyone know which of the variation of lock barrels a 67 S1a used? I've done some searching on line and it seems the R16 used several key variations throughout its production run, starting with a single sided key and moving to a couple different double sided keys. Can anyone tell me what the early Europas used?
Also did the early Europas use Lucas or Renault ignition switches?
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You actually need three keys
Ignition is the lucas switch and key
Doors is Renault R16 barrels and keys
And the third one is for the engine cover and bonnet
This should be the correct R16 ones
https://www.franzose.de/de/Renault/R16/Tuerschloesser-Griffe/ANR87683/
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I went with the Autosparlks offering for the new wiring harness and its already arrived, 2 days early in fact! Though it its possible to fix the individual bad wires in the harness i figured that it may be a good idea to get a new harness given that its made with modern components and construction methods and its also not 56 years old! Aside form needing to replace the fuel pump and brake master cylinder (as well as bleed the brakes) the wiring was the biggest hurdle from getting the car running, at least that I'm aware of now. I hope to begin pulling the harness and getting to swapping them this weekend. The project has no time frame and I have no idea how long it'll take me to get it done but at least I can begin!
Dakazman yes I would appreciate you sending me a higher res version of the wiring diagram! Thats something I'll definitely need consult throughout this process.
JB I'll be sure to double check that I wire it in the correct orientation and if I run into overheating issues I'll double check that first! ;)
Related to the wiring does anyone know of a company that may have a set of door lock barrels and matching ignition barrel? I'd really like to only need one key. If no one has them all as a set, does anyone know which of the variation of lock barrels a 67 S1a used? I've done some searching on line and it seems the R16 used several key variations throughout its production run, starting with a single sided key and moving to a couple different double sided keys. Can anyone tell me what the early Europas used?
Also did the early Europas use Lucas or Renault ignition switches?
The ignition switch is a lucas on the first Europe. I only have one key for the whole car. I machined the Lucas starter switch to place the Renault system there.
http://lotus-europa.com/picview.asp?page=460009-1
The photo is of poor quality. But we recognize the shape of the Renault 16 key.
I had recovered the whole on an R16. I don't remember well, but I think it was the glove box key system that could be used.
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Rainer, Hachille you guys are awesome! thanks so much for the info!! The wealth of knowledge here is staggering! I'll be sure to order a set of keys as well as the proper ignition switch to make it all work.
I'll keep all of you up to date on the rewiring procedure.
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Well y'all I'm about 1/3 the way through swapping the wiring harness. I've run into a couple snags though...
Firstly I have an S1a and Autosparks advertised their replacement harness for all Renault powered Europas. This isn't too big a deal; more than anything it just means I've had to use a the Type 56 S2 wiring diagram instead of the S1a.
More frustratingly I can't seem to decipher the ignition switch wiring. The wiring diagrams on the sight have 4 wires coming off the ignition switch in S2 form, but the switch I have out of my car doesn't appear to be S2 or S1. It says made in USA but has no branding. It doesn't look like a Lucas unit either. The terminals are labeled starter, Ignition, accessories and battery. Can anyone offer any input on there the wires attach? I'm stumped by this at the moment.
Upon further inspection it seems that the white and red gos to the starter, and the brown i believe is battery power. It seems one of the whites goes to the ignition, and the other the tach but I can't tell them apart. I'm afraid to route them improperly and fry something...
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Ohm meter, light, or buzzer, check continuity to determine which wire is which.
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The stock switch has four positions:
accessory - off - ignition - start (spring-loaded)
It has four terminals with 5 connections. On the stock switch the terminals are labelled:
1) NW wire from the ammeter (battery power)
2) W wires, one to the fuse box and the other to the tach
3) WR wire to the starter solenoid
4) to a radio if fitted
Your aftermarket switch will not have a separate accessory feed. Use an continuity tester to sort which connection is which.
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My ignition switch definitely doesn't appear stock by the token; my switch has 4 terminals with 7 connections but given that its labeled I'll be able to hook up those wires to the proper terminals. Also I'll have to move the fuse box from the right rear inner fender to the S2 location in the cab. Progress is being made!
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Here's my progress so far:
Saturday was spent removing the original harness from the car. I decided to take the harness out through the passenger compartment while attached to the auxiliary gauges in the center dash panel. The front section was very straightforward to remove and came out without any issue. The rear put up a fight though! The harness had been splayed open previous to my involvement which caused the wires to snag on any and everything they could. The harness also wouldn't move when pulled forward. It appeared to be pinched between the body and frame rail. I resorted to cutting it, wire by wire, in the backbone and pulling what I could out with the dash. I then had to remove wires one by one unto the diameter of the harness was small enough to yank it free of its pinch! trying to figure out why it wasn't moving had me :headbanger:
Once it was free the extent of the damage to some of the wires could be clearly seen. A new harness seems to have been the best option in the end!
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I took the dash inside and wired the thing according to the diagram. It seemed much easier than trying to wire it all up in the car. I spent all yesterday attempting to route the harness through the car. Pushing the harness rearward was an absolute nightmare! It really was an exercise in pushing rope! Have no skin on any knuckle at this point. The frame took its toll out of my hands and forearms. The harness is currently in the car but it snot hooked up to anything other then that I hooked up on the dash.
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Alright, lads I come to y'all with what may be another stupid question. As I've said before my lotus is clearly modified in numerous ways and now I need those those of you who are more experienced in S1s and S2s to tell me which electrical connectors are the proper ones. My taillights have spade connectors but the new S2 harness has bullet connectors, which is correct? I'm thinking it would be easier to modify the new harness to have spades. Any input from y'all?
The attached pic is the bullets on the new harness
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My 54 S2 has bullet.
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I was figuring that was going to be the case. I think at this point it would be easier to change the connectors on the harness to spade so I'll get that done when I resume work this weekend.
The Autosparks harness is beginning to confuse me. The main harness heading rearward seemed to be pretty straightforward, but the other aspects of it are beginning to trip me up. The harness set came as 5 distinct pieces. based on the colors I think that one of those pieces is the front light and fan harness, but I can't quite tell. The piece I believe to be the front harness has a strange plastic female 5-spade connector I can't seem to find on the diagram, but at this point it may be an issue of me staring at the wiring diagrams so much that I'm starting to lose track of the little details. Maybe a break from the project will be good to rest my attention.
Has anyone else worked with the Autosparks S2 harness? What was your experience?? Can you tell me what those smaller harnesses were used for?
It seems to me the slight differences between S1 and S2 are making this a slightly harder task tan anticipated, but it totally manageable I believe!
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I would be hesitant to cut up a new harness to put spades on it. The spade connector plug could be ignition, maybe?
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I've never really thought about it much but now that I am, I think the idea was is to use bullet connectors wherever possible (wire to wire connections) and spade connectors where you can't. I hate them though they are not without merit. I've replaced some of my bullet connectors but only the ones that gave me trouble. There are tools that would probably make them nicer work with. r.d. enterprises, to name one place, sells them.
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You haven’t posted a photo or specified wire colours but my guess would be that the strange 5 pin connector is for the wiper motor.
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Clifton, no in this case i'm specifically referring to my tail light assemblies. I'm unsure if the S1a spec cars had spade or bullet connectors for the rear lights, but the S2 harness has bullet connectors and I believe it will be easier for me to swap the harness ends for female spade ends in this particular case only
BDA a good set of snips, a stripper and some female spade ends are all I need for this particular instance. I don't have any particular feelings towards any type of connector in particular, I just have an incompatibility issue more than anything else. Also the wires from the light housing are very short in the rear so the harness, even if brand new is the easier thing to modify and ensure its done properly.
JB you're correct it does seem to be the wiper motor plug. I looked back at the diagram after some time at work and it made much more sense. That means I routed my harness improperly forward of the cab but I don't think that'll be too difficult to sort. That also must mean that one of the other smaller harnesses I've been confused as to the purpose of music be the front light harness...
Having never attempted wiring before this is turning into a bit of an adventure. Bummer I won't get to touch it much until this weekend as my work week is slammed! :-\
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Spade connectors are correct.
The Carello lights are from italy, and bullet connectors are pretty much non existent outside the uk.
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May this helps, pictures of my original S1a ignition switch.
This kind of switch seems no longer be available but you can switch out the key core with the standard lucas one.
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When I installed my Autosparks harness I found that the front light wiring was deficient. After showing them what was missing they shipped me the correct wires and connectors. To avoid cross eyed tracing issues I had the schematic blown up 2x and had the result printed and laminated. Easier on my fading eye sight.
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Rainer I remember reading somewhere that the rear lights on an S1 were from a Lancia or something similar! If the lights are correct I'd much rather modify the harness instead. Also my ignition switch looks nothing like that so I'll look at sourcing something similar to an S2 ignition switch now that I have an S2 harness just to make it all easier on my tiny brain!
Sandyman I do recall you mentioning the you had some small issues with the wiring to the front not being 100% correct during your install but I'm glad to hear they sorted it out. Was the harness proper otherwise? I'm pretty certain all my issues are of my own making but I'm just trying to cover all my bases. I actually shoved the wiper motor plug section of the harness through the front frame T thinking it was a plug for the headlights so ill have to pull the front section of the harness back out and see where I went wrong. I bet the front harness is one of the small harnesses that came with the main one.
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The wiring is working great. I added another 3 fuse mount and a ground circuit beside the original fuses. Both are wired directly to the battery. I am using these for uprated rad fan, electric washer motor, GPS speedometer and cellphone charger port.
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Sandyman, do you have a picture of that? It looks like I could use that. I'll be wiring in a Spal fan, and an air horn that needs a separate feed.
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I second that! I'd love to see your setup for that as I may make all those mods as well!
Also, Sandyman do you remember if the front light harness was a separate unit when you were wiring up your car? I'm stumped over it at the moment and its driving me MAD :headbanger: :headbanger:
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I used this to power everything not factory, 3 fans, a/c, fuel pump and all the EFI electronics that was added. They use mini fuses and mini relays. They have water tight covers
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Much better than mine. I am away from home this week and will post a picture of my fuses and ground next week. I will also look at the front wiring.
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Clifton that set up is very nice! Are those Painless parts? Sandyman, don't fret over it but if you could give it a look when your able I'd really appreciate it!
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Not Painless. I think I bought everything here https://www.waytekwire.com/products/1611/Power-Distribution/. I put a plug on the end so it can be removed.
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In the interest of not bombarding everyone (mostly JB so far... sorry!) with stupid questions that may have already been answered: does anyone know if there's a reference index of parts that Lotus borrowed from other marques or a list of parts that were used across multiple marques and models? I'm in need of rear brake shoes and a wiper motor for an early S2 as well as an ignition switch and I know other manufacturers had to be using parts from the same Lucas catalogue at the same time!
Also does anyone know the bore of the brake master cylinder for an S1a single circuit brake system? I seem to recall it being .7" but I'm not quite sure
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Yes. First go to and bookmark this page: http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/ It has the most information about Europas in one place anywhere.
There are three possibilities. There is a TC cross reference (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/lotuswest/74MC083.html) which probably won't help you much. There is a searchable cross reference that may or may not work but is worth trying (http://lotus-europa.com/parts.asp). And then there is this one which should be somewhat useful (https://www.gglotus.org/ggpart/europacr.htm).
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That Golden Gate Lotus club page is exactly what I was looking for! Thank you!
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Brake shoes are early Triumph GT6
Ignition switch is standard Lucas fare. Try early MGB or early Triumph Spitfire or TR4
Wiper motor is a bit more complicated. The “motor” part is all the same but the drive wheel inside varies and is specified in degrees written on the wheel itself. Get it wrong and the wipers will travel too far, possibly running onto the bodywork. Also, the wheel boxes are different between single and dual wiper set-ups. They have a different number of teeth on their drive gear. Here’s where it gets worse. Part numbers I can find but not the specifics of degrees or the number of teeth. So it is tricky to try and find substitutions from other brand’s parts bins.
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PS: Yes the S1 master cylinder has a 0.7” bore.
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JB you really are my hero! Triumph parts are actually pretty easy to find stateside so I can probably get those brake shoes without much issue. The ignition switch on the other hand has proved interesting... I'm able to get a genuine Lucas S1 ignition switch from England with keys, but it seems that the early S2 ignition switch, part #Lucas 149SA 35852, is near impossible to find. The closest thing I've found is this https://www.classicbritishspares.com/products/lucas-4-position-ignition-lighting-switch-w-keys-30552-54335169 and it seems to be for old British motorcycles. I'm not sure if that would work but I'm also not sure why it wouldn't given that its a 4-position switch. Motorcycles also have tachs and run on a 12-volt system I think so I imagine it'd be fine. That being said a cheap Triumph replacement can be had much more readily and cheaply so that may be my best bet.
The wiper motors being so complicated is a bummer. The wires on mine are all mangled and the plug is missing so at a minimum I'll need to get a new male 5-pin plug and wire it correctly and hope it works. Where I live in SoCal doesn't see much rain so I can honestly get away without for a little while give the Europa isn't my daily-driver. I'll burn that bridge when I get to it I guess! :confused:
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I would not use a motorcycle ignition switch. They have the lights controlled by the ignition switch and so have no spring loaded “start” position. Moss has this switch in stock:
https://mossmotors.com/ignition-switch-1?assoc=22940
Or, is yours one with a column lock?
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Mine does not have a column lock, just some strange, non-original dash ignition of unknown origin. I understand on the motorcycle ignition and I purchased a Mk1 Spitfire ignition switch, as well as TR6 brake shoes from Moss. The wiring for the front lights and indicators as well as the switch and controls lights in the cab are really beginning to confound me. I'm beginning to realize that I may have bitten off way more than I can chew with by rewiring the car but I'll keep plugging ahead.
On an unrelated note my brake master cylinder is toast and needs either rebuild or replacement. Frustratingly the Girling master cylinders seen online look very different from the Europa ones, and the rebuild kits for the .70" bore MCs are all out of stock. I'll likely take it to the local brake guru and see if he can source the necessary parts for a rebuild. That's the next big chapter in the project: getting the car to stop!
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Wilwood has a .70 mc that is dimensionally the same as Girling. I have had good experiences with Wilwood mc on two vehicles. Do not buy OBP ones. They are impossible to get bled properly and leak.
https://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderProd?itemno=260-15090
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NOT TR6 brake shoes! GT6!
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Fit a new master cylinder. Single circuit masters are inexpensive and bore wear will make a kit only a temporary fix.
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Are single circuit safe enough? I always thought tandem were the baseline for decades.
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The thing is we are approaching 5 decades since the last Europa was made!
UK TCS only ever had single circuit from factory, I think only US had dual circuit. We don't even get a low fluid warning light. I think my 1979 mini only had single circuit.
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Yes, single circuit masters are just fine and have a lower failure rate than dual cylinders in my experience. Most "failures" involve fluid leaks which are easy to catch if you watch your fluid level. Regardless, I fit new masters and rear cylinders every 40K. I flush and replace the fluid every two years. Parts wear. If you treat it as a maintenance item and change it regularly, then failures are very rare.
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JB I mistyped! I did in fact order Mk1 GT6 rear brake shoes from Moss, not TR6 so it should all work out. A Wilwood master cylinder definitely seems like a great upgrade! Swift, how does the master cylinder fit under the steering rack? JB, what master cylinders do you use when you replace yours? I know genuine Girling MCs can be had but they seem to be shaped differently from the original and I'm concerned about the potential shape/clearance issue.
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I have fit Tilton, Wilwood and Girling. All went on with no problems.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-936GGwF/0/D/i-936GGwF-D.jpg)
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Alright then new wheel cylinders and a new master cylinder will be ordered soon!
Gentlemen I have news! I was able to get the engine to turn over with the newly installed ignition switch and key! Tomorrow I'll endeavor to finish hooking up the gauges and other things in the engine compartment. But before I start that I've already run into 2 potential issues. 1 is that the wiring diagram has 2 white wires coming off one post, and a white wire with a black stripe coming off the other. The problem is that the diagram doesn't say which is to be on the positive and which is negative. Can someone with an S2 check and confirm for me? I have the whit eon the positive and the striped on the negative.
2. I seem to have a large female spade terminal on a large garage brown wire that, according to the diagram, should go onto the starter but I have no idea where it is meant to go as my starter solenoid doesn't have a male spade terminal aside from the ignition spade. Does anyone know what this female spade is for?
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1) I assume we are talking about the ignition coil wiring? Double white to coil +. WB to coil negative (goes to distributor).
2) The brown feed goes to the battery connection on the starter. Either fit a 5/16"/8mm eyelet connector to the wire or find a 0.375" (9.5mm) quick connect male screw that looks like this:
(https://media.digikey.com/Photos/TE%20Connectivity/42214-1.JPG)
These are hard to find in the 9.5mm size. I scavenge them off old Lucas alternators.
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A Wilwood master cylinder definitely seems like a great upgrade! Swift, how does the master cylinder fit under the steering rack?
Disconnecting the steering rack from its mounts helps access to replace mc. I actually have 3 mc on my S1 with 2 brake and one clutch. Just mark the rack position relative to mounts.
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Gentlemen, it runs!!!!
Today I hooked up all the remaining wires in the ingestion system and was able to get the car running on starting fluid. I then swapped in a new mechanical fuel pump and I was able to run the car on gas from the tank! That being said very little in the way of sensors or lights have been hooked up but that's the next major step. There are some problems with the S2 harness compared to an S1 I'm discovering. Most vexing currently is the fact that the fuel level sender is on the left-hand side of the car but my car has the tank on the right-hand side. Its a minor inconvenience I know but I'll still whine about it. I'm also currently running the car off an Odyssey battery that's being held to the right rear frame rail with massive hose clamps. I guess it ain't stupid if it works! I'll either make or purchase a battery tray or bracket as soon as I'm able to. The brake MC and the wheel cylinders are currently in the mail so I may be driving the car for short test runs around the neighborhood in relatively short order.
Other than the brakes I have one small, and one large problem to tackle. The small one is related to the alternator. Someone at some point seems to have swapped an alternator into the car. It seems to be a Mitsubishi with a strange green plug at the back (the first pic) and it has a red wire and a black wire coming off of it. The car seems to have been wired with the brown wire with green stripe being butt-connected to the IG terminal on the alternator to run to the voltage regulator, but the alternator has a sticker that reads IC reg built in. I'm beginning to get confused by that, as well as the fact that my S1 didn't have a relay in the charging system that an S2 appears to have according to the diagrams. It seems my alternator has only the plug and the stud for the ring terminal so I have no idea where to attach the ground either. I probably won't have much time until next weekend to figure it anything else out, but that's where I currently am on the charging system.
The large problem is I seem to have a pretty substantial coolant leak from the water pump. I'll attach pics but it seems that the leak is occurring from the bolts or the mating surface on the bottom edge closest to the swirl pot. The position of the heater valve doesn't seem to have any bearing on the leak, and it seems to start after the engine has been run for a little while, but not immediately on firing up. I'm inclined to believe it's the water pump gasket. What do y'all think? Is there any other common failure that may cause a leak from there?
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Congrats on getting it running!
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Water pump:
Between the water pump seal and the bearings there is a drain hole so coolant will not contaminate the bearings and cause them to fail suddenly. This is a very common failure. Replace the pump. There are two versions of the water pump depending on the pulley's bolt circle. RD and other Lotus suppliers will have the correct one.
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Can you give a photo of the alternator connections? And, any numbers on the alternator?
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Oh no the water pump itself? Bummer! Alright I'll look into sourcing one ASAP. I'll figure out my pulley's bolt circle between chem class and work later today and hopefully I can find one with the right pattern. Most comes to worst I can get a pulley that matches the new pump. What is it I'm checking for? Bolt pattern spacing? Pattern shape?
I can post a pic of the back of the alternator after class. Here's a shot of the side that shows where the green plug attaches and the post for the positive terminal. I tried to do some internet research yesterday based on the numbers on this sticker but I came up with nothing.
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Bolt circle is basically the distance from one threaded hole to the other.
The wiring is pretty simple as it is written on your tag. IG = ignition feed. L = warning light.
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Understood get the correct bolt circle water pump. I trust RD's expertise to have the right one, but Classic Garage has what is advertised to be an R16/S2 Europa pump for $90 but I'm not sure whether it'll be correct. I'll grab belts while I'm at it!
The plug does say ignition, and it seems to have had the brown and green striped wire butt connected to the ignition wire from the alternator. According to the diagrams that brown wire would then go to a regulator. If the alternator is internally regulated it would seem that an external regulator wouldn't be needed. Does that seem right to all y'all? Or should I source an external regulator? RD also sells the 4-pin relay that the regulator would have then connected to so that would be easy to source.
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You can't match the wiring diagram to an aftermarket alternator. If you are going to keep this alt, then delete the voltage reg and wire it up as per the alt's requirements.
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Alrighty y'all, just a small update: the new Girling brake master cylinder came in and it seems to fit perfectly. I mocked it up and everything appears to line up as it should. I have to make a new line from the master cylinder to the junction block due to mine being too rusty for comfort and no-one I can find selling it pre-bent. While I'm at it I should also remake the reservoir to MC line as well. The old fittings were stripped so I was wondering of anyone could tell me what type of flares and fittings a new Girling MC needs. I'm not able to tell just by looking. JB, Swift I know you guys have used Girling MCs a bunch; do y'all happen to know? Anyone have any cautions for me about making brake lines for these MCs?
In wiring and water pump news I ordered some small bits from RD and they should hopefully be here by this weekend. I'll likely tray and finish the brakes, then the wiring then water pump.
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The tube nuts for the Girlings should be 3/8-24. For tubing recommend using copper alloy Cunifer, so much easier to work with than steel lines. Make sure to use use bubble flare.
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Grumblebuns is right about outlet and brake line fittings. Inlet from reservoir is 7/16" x 20.
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If RDEnt or DBE do not have the 7/16-20 fittings Fedhill does. I'm assuming that the line from the reservoir to MC is 3/8" so make sure that the 7/16-20 fittings are for the 3/8" brake line not the 1/4" line
https://store.fedhillusa.com/britishgirling-316475nutsandfittings.aspx
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Ah, Joji so the outlet seat does need a bubble flare! I'll be sure to check and make sure I'm ordering the correct size tube nut for the diameter brake tubing I'll be using. I have a ton of stainless steel 3/16 brake line left around the garage from when my dad redid the lines in his 61 corvette so I'll likely use that because its on hand even though its a pig to shape! I'll get those nuts ordered ASAP so they can get to me and get it done.
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Finally a picture of my additional fuses and grounds. Snow on the ground this morning, I will look at the front wiring this weekend.
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Thanks Sandyman! I always like seeing how others mount their electronics for inspiration.
A small update for y'all. I ordered new brake shoes and new wheel cylinders from Moss and got them installed on the left rear today. The problem now is that the drum won't fit over the new shoes. The brake pads appear to be too thick. I made sure that the pads I ordered were the ones I was sent and that the adjuster was adjusted all the way in. Despite all that I wasn't able to get the drum over the shoes. Has anyone else encountered the problem? I'm thinking of trying to have the drums turned down to clear. Does anyone have any advice or cautions for me on this?
On the other fronts: the water pump and gasket arrived today as well as the regulator and relay for the charging system so I plan on finishing the wiring and maybe getting to the water pump this weekend.
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Disconnect the hand brake cable and see if that helps.
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I did try that but to no avail. I also looked to find some adjustment in the wheel cylinders or the adjuster itself but no matter what I try the pads seems to be too thick to get the drum over.
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Have you a photo of the pads on the backplate with the drum off
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Actually my forgetful self didn't take one with the new shoes on and I've already put the old shoes and the wheel back on. I'll get to swapping them back on shortly for another round of troubleshooting. Sadly I had to move the car in the short term so it had to go back together with the parts
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Dreams,
I documented the rear adjuster disassembly here . It’s helped others.
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=2058.510
Dakazman
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Happy Halloween y'all! I bring news!
First the good: I fully disassembled, cleaned and rebuilt the shoe adjusters for both rear brakes and that allowed the drums to just slide over the new shoes. Thanks for the link Dakazman your thread on it was very clear and helpful!! It was still a tight fit but removing all the grime and grit from the adjusters allowed them to move enough to clear the drums. I was also able to build the brake line from the master to the junction block and got the system properly bled. The car stops amazingly well! I've never had a car with proper non-boosted brakes, let alone one so light! The charging system has also been hooked up. I think the battery I had laying around the garage that went in the car is quite old and doesn't hold a charge so I can't establish whether or not charging system is functioning aside from giving the expected 14v measured with a multimeter. Lastly the brake lights have been hooked up and seem to function as designed.
Now the bad: out of nowhere the carb has started flooding so quickly and with so much fuel that it chokes out the engine. It's as if someone turned on a tap and I can watch as the carb spills over with fuel. At some point someone installed a Weber DGEV 32/36 progressive 2-bbl downdraft carburetor so I'llm take the top cover off and clean out the needle valve with either carb cleaner or compressed air. Taking the top plate off probably means ruining the gasket so I'll likely have to replace that too. The two inner bolts holding the carb to the manifold seem near impossible to get to so I'm hoping to not hav etc take the whole carb off. The only thing stopping me from rebuilding or replacing the carb is wanting to eventually (hopefully soon) upgrade to DCOE manifold but it may not be avoidable. The car was running so well and then all of a sudden its gone to hell so I'm believing currently its just crud in the carb but we'll have to see... :headbanger:
The second bit of bad news is tat I'll have to send the water pump back to RD Ent. The pump I've been sent appears to have a whole between where the heater hoses go that isn't present on my pump currently on the car. I'll try and get pics soon but I have neither the fitting intended for the orifice nor the desire to seal the hole with JB Weld or TIG. Hopefully I can get the pump swapped out for one that'll be a direct fit, but if not I'll figure it out.
I'm quite frustrated by it all but that's just part of it. I'll take some time to learn more about the carb and calm down. They seem very popular swaps on old MGs and 22RE powered Toyota trucks so There's gotta be a lot of knowledge out there.
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On a more positive note here's a short video of the car idling very well before I started encountering any problems. This is after the car was warmed up and driven around my neighborhood for about a half-hour
https://youtu.be/HuciLGTygdc
HopefullyI can get it back to running this well soon because right now I feel like :headbanger:
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That sounds great,
It’s an inspiration . It’s about the joy after the sorrow.
You will figure it out.
Dakazman
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Carb gaskets are dry and unless it’s damaged, it’s not necessary to change it.
It’s idling very nicely! I would think that once you fix the needle and seat issue, things will fall into place.
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Probably a bit of crud under the needle. Not unusual when resurrecting a car. Is there a fuel filter? If so, how does it look?
Usually you can pull the carb top off without damaging the gasket.
Can you post photos of the old/new pump? Might be an air bleed. Is it threaded?
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Dakazman though you may be right, it's still very frustrating!! It's made even worse by the fact that I had it running is well and suddenly it isn't any longer! C'est la vie.
BDA you were correct that the gasket didn't break and I reinstalled the top without any issue.
JB I was able to remove the top without any issue. The fuel filter is a simple metal inline filter between the pump and the carb. The old pump was the stock SEV Marchal pump for the Renault 1.4L and the new one is a mechanical pump of the same design that was purchased from Kelvedon. Funny enough this fuel issue has only cropped up after I changed fuel lines and filter!
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So I'm very impatient so I through a headlamp on and went opiut to the car after work and here's what I was able to do:
The problem I was having was the bowl (the rectangles on the left) was quite literally filling up and overflowing at idle and choking out the engine. So earlier I managed to get the top of of the carb and was able to lift the top plate, with the brass floats attached, and inspect it. The float bowl is full of some pretty nasty looking yellow fuel that I wasn't na position to drain. The floats themselves seem to move well and they do engage against the needle valve assembly and the whole thing seems to move as designed. I wasn't going too take apart the assembly tonight but I took the carb cleaner I had and shot it into the needle valve housing. I'm not sure if that'll have made any difference but its all I could try today. I also blew some carb cleaner into the air jets and the seemed to be clear.
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Pull the fuel line off the carb and direct it into a plastic bottle. Crank the engine for 5 to 10 seconds. What does the fuel look like?
Myself, I run a fuel filter with a clear bowl so I can keep an eye on the fuel. You may have to remove and clean out your tank(s).
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I like the idea of the clear filters so I can check them out, but lately I've had terrible leaks with them that have caused several close calls and one small fire so I'll have to look for ones of higher quality if I want to go back to them.
I'll definitely check the fuel coming out of the tank with your method but I likely won't be able to get to that until the weekend with my work and class schedule. The same goes for disabling the needle valve to clean it properly. I have a 2 hour gap between jobs today so I may run home and try to start the car and see if I managed to blow out the valve, but I doubt it worked given that I didn't disassemble the components and blow out the actual needle. I just stuck the carb cleaner in the assembly's holes and blew it in. Sunday I'm picking up twin aluminum S1 tanks from a local member and I may be able to have those swapped out.
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I expect you would have noticed this but in case it didn’t occur to you, could there have been a leak in your floats? Shake them or even weigh them (I think I’ve seen some floats marked with their weight).
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BDA I did closely examine and manipulate the floats and they appear to be intact and functioning as designed. Thankfully they weren't broken or perforated or full of fuel. Actually the whole carb seemed in very good shape save some slight green oxidation on the brass floats but that was minimal.
Well, lads it seems that the carb cleaner shot into the needle assembly did the trick well enough to get the carb to run properly and the idle to smooth back out like that video. Obviously I have some cleaning to do and I'd like to get the new tanks in sooner rather than later. But we'll see how it all goes.
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:beerchug:
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Brake shoes are early Triumph GT6
Ignition switch is standard Lucas fare. Try early MGB or early Triumph Spitfire or TR4
Wiper motor is a bit more complicated. The “motor” part is all the same but the drive wheel inside varies and is specified in degrees written on the wheel itself. Get it wrong and the wipers will travel too far, possibly running onto the bodywork. Also, the wheel boxes are different between single and dual wiper set-ups. They have a different number of teeth on their drive gear. Here’s where it gets worse. Part numbers I can find but not the specifics of degrees or the number of teeth. So it is tricky to try and find substitutions from other brand’s parts bins.
Ignition switch: 36B6015R (same as elan, etc).
Wiper Wheelbox for dual wipers: 54M6056 40 tooth
Wiper Wheelbox for single wiper: 36M6151 32 tooth
Wiper wiper motor gear dual wiper: 36M6276 110 Degree
Wiper motor gear single wiper: Lucas # LU54702587 130 Degree
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Thanks, Brian! That'll make tracking down the specific parts much easier!
Lads, I've run into a new problem: when I shut off the key the car stays running! The only way for me to get it to shut off is to unplug the white ignition wires from the back of the ignition barrel. Anyone have any idea what may be causing this or where I should begin looking for things to fix?
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Ignition/Alternator not wired correctly.
Power is still reaching the coil with ignition off.
You need to move one wire.
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Something tells me the alternator isn't hooked up properly. I don't think I'm charging the battery either come to think of it.
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Check idle voltage compared to 1500 RPM voltage.
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I'll have to get that done this weekend so I can begin diagnosing the charging issues.
This of y'all who have non-stock alternators on your S1s and S2s what make and model did you go to? Considering my alternator is an unknown quantity I'm thinking of swapping to something that's known to work well. Thoughts? Ideas? Tips and tricks I should know? My searches have shown me a couple threads for TC stuff but nothing for the Renault powered cars.
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Almost every hot-rod now runs a three wire GM alternator.
Heavy wire to the battery and a two wire plug.
But kind of large to my way of thinking.
If my current alternator fails I intend to see about adapting the unit from a Geo Metro.
They are small in size but still put out decent power.
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I’ve been installing Delco Remey 10SI alts for years. Great output, simple to repair and easy to find parts for. Mounting can be tricky sometimes with their long mounting lug. I have one on my S1
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There is also a small Kubota tractor alternator people use.
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Thanks, Gents I'll definitely start looking into those alternators!
I have a new frustration: the radiator fan! Those of you who have S2s and have had to replace the stock radiator fan relay, what relay did you use and how did you wire its in? I have a standard fan relay and I can't get the fan to work with the S2 harness. I've scoured the diagram but I can't seem to make it work. Any advice or how-tos? Those of y'all with S1s who have done similar any ideas as well?
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Any 30-40 amp relay will work. First test yours. Power across BOB to RAD should make the relay click. That should join BAT+ and MOT.
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The original relay has completely fallen apart and doesn't click when power is applied so I believe it to be kaput!
I've been trying to get a standard 5-pin relay to work but I can't equate the the wiring of the standard fan really with the S2 harness. I'm not sure if I'm not understanding the wiring harness itself and therefore can't equate the harness to the pins, or if I've just been staring at the diagram for so long I've stopped seeing details :headbanger:
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Can you post a photo of the relay you want to use? Specifically the terminals and any numbering by them.
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Here’s the type of relay that I’m trying to use. I believe it’s just a standard fan relay. Mine isn’t a Bosch out it’s pin numbered and oriented the same way.
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85 - green
86 - black to rad fan switch and red/black to interior fan switch
30 - purple
87 - power to rad fan
ground - ground to rad fan and ground for rad fan switch
If you are using an original rad fan, then power goes to the black wire and ground to the red wire. If you are using an aftermarket pusher fan, then wire normally. Always double check that air is being pushed through the rad.
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Well, gents I've come to a crossroads: either my fan is broken, I'm stupid, or I'm missing something on the harness and I just can't get the fan to turn on! :headbanger: I have a new fan I think I'll ty and wire in and see if it can be made work before I endeavor to take the old one out. Also on my harness it seems as though I'm missing a ground wire. I have 2 black wires terminated together in a female spade terminal, as well as a black wire and a red-and-black wire terminated in female spade but that still leaves me short a wire that should go from the thermo switch to the relay so it seems.
On another electrical front I have a bundle of bullet terminated wires that I have no idea as to the function of. They branch off from the harness close to the wiper motor plug toward the passenger side and I can't seem to find anything like them on the wiring diagram, except for the lights and blinkers and stalk controls, but there already seems to be those on the driver's side. Once again I'm completely stumped. Does Autosparks just double up the harness for LHD and RHD compatibility?
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Looks like it should go to a four-way flasher switch.
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Speaking as an electrical engineer (NOT an automotive electrician) are there fans that use the mounting bolts as ground? Maybe your fan assumes a steel car body?
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Kendo that seems entirely possible as a method grounding though I don't believe its used in the case for the Europa.
JB that's an interesting thought, but I've never seen fisher relay that used bullets before and a quick google search doesn't yield any results. Another really interesting thing is when the the red and green bullets touch the relay in the charging system clicks on and if the car is running and those bullets touch, the car stays running even with the ignition off and the key removed from the switch. That appears to have been the cause of the phantom ignition source! That being said I can't seem to trace the wiring harness from the relay to see what they may be for and I'm still just as stumped. :headbanger: :headbanger: :headbanger:
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Lads, I come bearing bad news: something in my clutch has completely failed and I can't get the car into gear! I took the car for a drive today up the highway and everything was going very well, until it was time to parallel park. I tried to shift into reverse but the car wouldn't go into gear, then I tried to drove away and the car wouldn't go into any gear. Also when the clutch pedal is depressed it now won't return and is stuck on the floor. I'm assuming at this point that the throwout bearing has failed without any warning. The trans shifts into all gears done while the car is off so I don't believe it to be znthing with the gearbox. The clutch cable also appears to be intact with no damage.
What do y'all think? Does my diagnosis seem to be in the right vein? If not the release bearing then I think it'd be the pressure plate.
I'm dreading having to pull out the gearbox it seems like quite the ordeal...
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So you skipped a few post?
No news when you got it running and driving?
Car-ma for not keeping us up to date? ;)
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Ok the car-ma quip had me laughing harder than I want to admit but I’ve told y’all the car’s been running since page 6! :P
But yes incase I hadn’t said it simply the car has been running and driving well for the little test drives I’ve been taking it on as I button things up. I even got the head and tail lights working! That all being said the clutch went without any warning. When clutches go what is it that fails?? I’m probably going to try and order a whole clutch kit at this point but I have no idea when I will be able to work on replacing it due to the work needed to pull the gearbox
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Get an assistant. Have them push the clutch pedal while you watch the clutch arm. Is the clutch arm moving? If not, maybe the the cable abutment under the drivier's seat broke away.
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JB, that’s what happened to my car early in ownership. The under-seat bracket rusted and broke up. I relocated the new one slightly to reduce the downward bow of the cable under the car.
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JB and Kendo that'll be the very fist thing I check! Having gone back into the engine compartment to try and find the reason it all stopped working the cable doesn't seem to have any undue amount of slack in the engine bay, but I'm not sure how the cable is fairing under the car so I'll start there. As I push on the pedal I can watch the cable move with the pedal so I believe it to be intact and not broken anywhere. I have a feeling it may be related to the clutch components themselves because it seems that the clutch arm won't move at all. If I disconnect the cable and attempt to actuate the arm it rocks forward minutely and then stops, and no amount of force or leverage can make it move forward further. I haven't had a second person to depress the pedal while I watch the arm, so perhaps I'm just unable to overcome the pressure plate springs without the leverage and leg muscles. I'll hopefully get the car towed home soon and I can get started diagnosing this new issue.
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Page 9, Alternator, Fan, and 'what to do with these wires' issues.
So hearing of your clutch problem while driving was a surprise.
I just removed my whole drive-line and it would seem pulling just the trans should not be a horrible job.
Of course, good support for the chassis and engine are critical.
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It doesn't seem to be a massively difficult job, but the need to completely disassemble the rear suspension makes it quite a process. If I need to remove the gearbox I'll employ many jackatsnds or the rear of the frame and a spare floor jack with a 2x4 under the engine oil pan to support the engine. The first step will be getting it home after that I'll try and figure out what's wrong.
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If the clutch arm won't move but the cable does when you press the pedal, then it's probably the cable abutment.
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+1 on the cable abutment.
The cable sheath ferrules at both ends of the cable need to be seated properly for it to work. Check the abutment at the engine mount. Is the engine mount cracked/broken?
I doubt you could apply sufficient force by hand on the clutch lever, but given sufficient room you could perhaps jerry rig a breaker bar on the gearbox lever.
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Gavin, come to think of it the the sheath ferule is no longer sitting flush in the engine mount, its backed itself out toward the front of the car. That may be a pretty indicator that the front abutment has broken...
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I'm not sure about the OEM cable but my cable has flats machined into the ferrules. This is intended to take a clip that stops the cable coming out of it's recess, much the same as used on hand brake (E-brake) cables.
I've had the cable jump out of it's recess on the track but then, clutch use can be fairly enthusiastic in that setting.
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Happy Thanksgiving to you all! I’m very thankful and appreciative for all the help you guys have given me with this project and I hope you continue to offer me your insight as I keep tinkering!
Well, Lads I got the car home and I got under it to try and find the abutment… I have to cut the body or at least the seat to get to it, don’t I?
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The one I’m talking about is in the driver’s space, under the carpet. Follow the clutch cable back from the pedal, about 1foot back
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Do you have an S1 or an S2? When I lift up the seat cushions on my S1 all I can see is the fibreglass seat onto which the cushions sit. The bracket is under that seat isn’t it?
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It would make no sense to have to cut anything for a simple service item like this.
Sure, they were not intended to be on the road fifty years later but a cable might need service in only a couple of years.
So as Kendo said, follow the cable from the pedal back.
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Richard I agree with you; something so simple as a cable bracket should be repairable without so much work needing to get to it as cutting the body or seat away, but back from the pedal all the way to the seat is just frame rail before it tucks under the interior bodywork either side of the tunnel/backbone. Midway down the seat there are the 2 holes that show the sheathing covering the clutch cable but there's no bracket that I can see in any form. This is what's under my seat and in my footwell. JB do you happen to have any pics of the front bracket handy you can post here?
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Upper cable for throttle, correct?
Hard to make out in the pic, just above the floor, reaching very nearly to the pedal.
Is that the cable sheath or a rod reaching back and picking up a shorter cable further back?
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I'm sorry the picture quality isn't great. Its dark here and the iPhone camera isn't great but I can try and get some better lit ones tomorrow when the sun is out. Yes the upper cable is the throttle. The black running from the lower pedal along the frame is the sheathing on the clutch cable, however the cable then has a thicker, metal sheath running through the seat and to the engine mount.
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Shouldn’t the sheath go from near the pedals to an abutment nearer the clutch arm?
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well I can tell you that there's a rear abutment near the clutch arm in the engine mount and the sheathing does seem to go all the way to that abutment. JB mentions a front abutment in the S1s but I can't seem to find any front bracket of any kind. How is the twin cam clutch set up?
All I can tell for sure is that the cable isn't sitting in the rear abutment, and the pedal can be pushed to the floor with considerable resistance and it doesn't return to position after its let off. Also when the pedal is depressed the arm doesn't move any further than I can move twitch my hand, which is just a minuscule amount of forward travel
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Here are some exploded views of the assemblies and interestingly there doesn't seem to be a front bracket for the S1 pedal and cable assembly, but there's definitely one in the S2 exploded assembly off to the bottom left. The S1 is top and the S2 is bottom and its interesting how different they are from each other. These were screen-grabbed from RD Enterprise's website and the upper is for the S1 while the bottom is described as S2 and S2 Federal
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S2 shows the bracket/tab/abutment for the outer cable sleeve.
S1 pic does not but it pretty well has to be at about the same location.
There has to be some sort of forward stop for the outer cable sleeve.
Without that the whole cable, inner and outer, will just pull forward with the pedal arm.
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I agree with your assertion that there has to be some sort of forward stop but I'm not sure as to how its designed or where it's located. I can't seem to move the sheathing or cable fore or aft but I can move it up and down quite a bit. I mess with it quite a bit today but is far haven't found anything. Maybe JB or someone else who's fixed the issue on an S1 has some pics laying around they can post.
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This diagram shows a clutch abutment:
(http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/s1parts/a/A1.gif)
It's the bracket on the chassis just above the RH 46B-6001.
It's not accurate as S1s never came in RHD but the illustration shows you roughly where it will be on the left side. You will have to drill a hole in the raised floor section under the driver's seat base. Use a hole saw. You have to be able to get your hand in so make it a good size.
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JB is the abutment the tab located near 46B-6001? That looks like it may be it...
Have you had to fix the front abutment on an S1? Did you have to cut into the seat to access it?
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Here's a picture from Serge's blog showing what I think may be the abutment visible through the massive hole in in the seat. The strange thing is I can't see any bolt holes or rivets or anything passing through the chassis that would indicate a bracket being attached when I look at the inside of the frame via the access hole. Are they welded on, perhaps?
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Even expanding the Serg pic details are hard to make out.
But, it looks like there may be a right-angle (Downward) bend piece of flat-stock at the right edge near the tunnel which is the forward abutment for the cable sheath.
Does you system have ONLY the inner cable visible forward of the seat?
Pretty heavy piece of flat-stock, I would expect a bolt or two holding it in place.
Paging Joji?
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Sadly that was the largest copy of the Serge pic I could find. If one looks closely one can see the clutch cable running along Serge's very rusty frame in the same way mine does. Only the cable is exposed forward of the seat not the reinforced sheath. The cable is exposed from the attachment point on the pedal assembly to the bodywork enclosing the chassis as it runs through the passenger cab.
If that is in fact the abutment bracket then it seems I will have to cut the seat in order to get to it and THAT is something is was hoping to avoid, but if I can't even see the bracket then I can't establish whether or not its the broken component... :headbanger: :blowup:
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Still seems odd the abutment would be so inaccessible but maybe overlooked as simple until the body goes on?
But even then, a BONDED body makes the flaw so much worse! :confused:
I have a thought, get a longer cable assembly (S2?) and put a new forward abutment up where it is accessible.
Do you have or can you borrow a Bore-Scope?
Probably best if it has a flexible shaft.
There may be enough space between the chassis and seat to get a look without cutting?
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If one looks closely one can see the clutch cable running along Serge's very rusty frame in the same way mine does. Only the cable is exposed forward of the seat not the reinforced sheath. The cable is exposed from the attachment point on the pedal assembly to the bodywork enclosing the chassis as it runs through the passenger cab.
Yes, that's the point.
Your first pic in Reply #151 shows a lot of black sheathing forward of the seat so my assumption was that the abutment location must be quite close to the clutch pedal.
My WAG is that someone replaced the cable previously and perhaps couldn't find the forward 'hidden' abutment. They then proceeded to install another abutment close to the pedals?
Let's do this the easy way.
Get some light on the subject. Trace the cable/sheath back from the pedal linkage and show us where the abutment is (or isn't) as per your previous pic.
If that is in fact the abutment bracket then it seems I will have to cut the seat in order to get to it and THAT is something is was hoping to avoid, but if I can't even see the bracket then I can't establish whether or not its the broken component...
Yeah . . I'd fall foul of the 'originality' crowd but I'd install a new abutment in a similar location as the S2.
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Here's the thing. Serge's photo shows a big hacked hole BUT the outer part is smooth and formed. There is supposed to be a hole in the seat base floor for this very reason as there are other access holes for the seat belts, etc. On mine it was covered with an aluminium plate. Is your seat base floor covered with anything?
The bracket is originally welded on. This is a very common failure due to its low location and the classic S1 chassis corrosion. You have examined your chassis carefully for corrosion? Especially up front? I reach in the front large access hole and start stabbing with an ice pick. Make sure you have a large box of kleenex and crisis counsellor close to hand!
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Alright let me try and reply to everything: JB the seat is completely smooth and there isn't any kind of access panel so I'm going to have to cut a hole to gain any kind of access. There are 2 access holes cut into the tunnel further back where I can see the cable sheathing but there's no access to the bracket through those. The frame diagram you posted earlier has the abutment bracket located near the shifter relative fore and aft along the frame. I'll swing by the Home Depot and get a piece of sheetmetal and some u-nuts to make a removable panel. I'll also grab an L-bracket while I'm there and some bolts to fab a new abutment if it's indeed broken. As you instructed me too earlier in the thread when I got the car I took a large screw driver went stab-happy on all I could access and it all seems to be pretty solid though there are some places of considerable surface rust. In short no rot I could find and definitely not rotted the way your frame was!!
Gavin I see what your trying to illustrate but I don't think that's the method for cable tensioning in this particular application. The bracket you highlighted is the assembly that's holding the cable to the pedal and it seems the abutment is behind the interior bodywork. I'll get some well-lit pics here shortly. I'm not worried about originality so much as I am usability. Interestingly the trans isn't the original. It's a gearbox out of an S2. The location of my reverse (all the way right and back) is different from the S1 gearbox (all the way left and back) so i wonder if the cable has been changed before, but probably not. I don't see a reason to change the cable just because the gearbox is being swapped.
Richard I agree with you this was a design oversight for sure! I understand that bracket was welded on the frame and wasn't meant to brake in the car's usable lifetime and not last 55 years but that makes it extremely frustrating to repair!! :headbanger:
I'll have to see if I can borrow a bore scope, but at this point I'm pretty well resigned to the fact that I'll be cutting an access panel either way. I'm going to have to fit a drill into the access hole and make holes for a new bracket if the abutment is, in fact, broken...
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Don't cut a vertical hole in the side of the "tunnel". Cut one in the floor under the seat base. Simple alu sheet and four small screws to hold it in place are all you need for a cover.
To figure out where to cut, shove a ruler inside the tunnel covering and between the clutch cable and chassis. If anything remains of the abutment, it will hit it. Now you know where to cut your hole.
One reason the abutment breaks is because it flexes slightly every time you use the clutch. I would weld in a triangulating support to brace it, basically make a triangle out of the "L" bracket.
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Here are some better pics
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Don't cut a vertical hole in the side of the "tunnel". Cut one in the floor under the seat base. Simple alu sheet and four small screws to hold it in place are all you need for a cover.
To figure out where to cut, shove a ruler inside the tunnel covering and between the clutch cable and chassis. If anything remains of the abutment, it will hit it. Now you know where to cut your hole.
One reason the abutment breaks is because it flexes slightly every time you use the clutch. I would weld in a triangulating support to brace it, basically make a triangle out of the "L" bracket.
I was planning on cutting as you describe, likely somewhere close to the center where one's thighs would go in the seat base, and your idea of knowing about where to cut with a ruler is great! I'll save the cut-out incase I ever need it and I'll use a small piece of aluminum as a cover. I understand its flexing is an issue and if possible ill get a pretty heavy duty L-bracket to replace the one that' potentially gone as I don't have easy access to a welder right now. If I make an access panel I can always weld a better designed bracket in later.
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The ruler shows the bracket is about 5.5 inches back from the point at which the cable snakes under the bodywork so I have a decent idea where I need to cut my access hole to reach. Also, RD Enterprises sells a nice abutment bracket that may be simpler for me to buy than to make. I probably won't do any work until Sunday but we'll see how it all goes.
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Here are some better pics
Alrighty . . my only question is this:
Is the cable I've highlighted the outer sheath or the inner cable?
I ask because it looks to be very thick for an inner cable.
If it's the outer sheath, I'm going to guess there's no abutment action happening.
Maybe my eyes are playing tricks.
Please put me out of my misery. ;)
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Gavin, I wondered about that too. But if you look at the photo in reply 161, you can see the fat visible cable, and the even fatter outer sheath under the seat cutout. So I think what you boxed is the inner cable. As diagnosed from the internet….
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Gavin what you highlighted is the inner cable and kendo yes the cable viewed through the cut out is the outer sheathing
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So if you disconnect the cable at the pedal end does the assembly then flop around when you lift the outer sheath through the access hole in the seat?
If you depress the pedal as it is now, do you see the outer sheath move with the inner cable?
That should reveal if the abutment is broken even before cutting any holes.
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I don’t need to disconnect the cable from the pedal to flap it up and down through the access holes. It has several inches of vertical movement and moves very little effort if I grab it so I’m pretty certain the bracket is broken. I don’t see the Outer sheath moving when I had to press the pedal but it definitely seems to be free-floating currently
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Alright, lads I come bearing news, but the tl;dr is I'm now very perplexed...
So today I cut an access hole into the seat to examine the abutment. The good news is it wasn't broken and the cable somehow had jumped out of its track (the attached picture) rather than the cable having snapped or bent the abutment. Slotting the cable back in to the abutment made no difference at all. Now I'm trying to determine what to troubleshoot next. After reseating the cable instead of the pedal coming back to the top of its throw quickly and smoothly it creeps black at a glacial pace but eventually it will engage and the car will move in gear. Pushing the clutch pedal back down repeats the process; the clutch will engage and the car can be shifted into 2nd, but the glacial pace of the pedal means the car is almost at a stop before the car can be moving in gear again. Another interesting occurrence is that now my brake pedal doesn't return to the top of its throw either, and before all of this it did, for sure. The last interesting detail is that the clutch pedal didn't return until I sprayed the pedal assembly and the clutch arm throughly with dry lube WD-40 with PTFE. I'm now wondering if I need to remove the pedal assembly and ensure its clean, lubed and operating appropriately as new I'm worried that may be a contributing problem if not the whole problem. If something mechanical had prevented the pedal from returning perhaps that allowed the cable to jump from its track but that doesn't seem to make much sense given that the cable is tight when the pedal is depressed...
At this point if its related to the clutch mechanism I'm thinking it has to be related to the release bearing or something wrong with the fork or shaft.
Once again, gents I'm completely stumped :headbanger:
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I think I would try lubricating the cable and pedal assembly, the pedal assemblies are prone to rust issues if any water has sat in the car from a leaking windshield etc…. The bracket etc was completely missing on mine…. just a pile of rust.
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Does the clutch pedal move freely by hand after disconnecting the cable?
Yep, slow return could let the cable pop out.
From your description it is either the pedal being rusty inside, or the TO bearing being sticky on the guide.
If you have 336 trans like my S2 there is an external return spring on the clutch arm.
If that broke or slipped out of place it would no longer pull the release bearing back.
The 336 has a small hole on each side of the bell-housing that might let you squirt some lubricant onto the TO bearing guide.
I cannot imagine the contortions to DO that, but it may be possible.
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Roger that, Kendo, but the pic in Reply #161 is of Serge's car.
Anyway, it looks like Dreams has straightened me out.
Dreams, good news, indeed.
I agree if the brake pedal is now acting up, it seems time to remove the pedals for an R&R – too much stuff not happening properly there. Best to also remove the cable so you can assess that as well.
Also interesting is that in your latest pic of the abutment, the cable ferrule shows a build up of crud which would indicate it hasn't been correctly seating in the abutment for some time.
I wouldn't worry about the release bearing etc. just yet – diagnosis is a process of elimination. I suspect that'll magically come right when the pedals are fixed.
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Turbo, tomorrow I'm definitely going to remove the pedal assembly and clean and lubricate the whole thing. Seeing how it's a nested system gunk of any kind getting in the assembly surely would really mess it up. However the system not operating happened all of a sudden and it was working without any issues before so gunk build up or rust seems to be unlikely. I'd put probably 50 miles on the car without any indication of pedal trouble whatsoever, but I guess anything is possible :confused:
Richard the pedal did not move any better when I had the cable disconnected from the clutch arm. It still had just as much resistance and didn't cooperate. Also I should have mentioned that I tightened the crap out of the clutch cable before it would return the pedal even with the lubricant. I'm not sure what trans I have. I know that the shift pattern is different from the pattern in the early cars in regards to reverse but I'm not certain. The gearbox tag is knackered and illegible but I do have the external return spring on the arm which is intact and functioning and I also lubed heavily. It seems there are 2 access hole in the bell housing and I could tray and spray lubricant in there but I'm afraid of accidentally spraying the clutch disc so I may hold off on that for the time being.
Gavin, the clutch cable has a inner braided cable thats then coated in a black rubber lining that then also sits inside and large armored sheath that sits against the abutments. Hopefully some TLC on the pedals fixes the issues, but I'm not convinced it's just pedal trouble. Also you gents should have seen the literal rat's nest that had been created under the seat! The cavity had been made home by some creature but it had left long before I started working o the car. Y'all wouldn't believe the amount of leaves and seeds I vacuumed out! I'll give you all an update as I try and get those pedals out.
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Check out TCST if you want to see critter debris!,,,,
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Well, Lads it seem that the pedal removal and regressing has done the trick. The brake pedal returns as expected and the clutch appears to be functioning. I do have a concern though: I'm not sure if the clutch pedal is returning to where it should be. The mechanism appears to be functioning as it ought to but I'm not sure of the clutch is engaging where it should in the pedal throw and I'm not sure if the pedal is returning to where it should. Corollary to that, how much should I have to adjust the clutch cable? Or rather how many inches of adjustment rod should I have extending aft of the clutch arm and pivot. Something tells me that the cable wasn't adjusted properly before I had any issues, but where do y'all have the cable? I know one should check the adjustment by movement of the arm, but I'm figuring a rough inches number will at least tell me if I'm way off base or not.
Oh and Turbo that is definitely some critter litter! I know it could have ben worse but I was still quite surprised to find it where I did!
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Excellent . . more good news, Dreams.
Can't help with a 'correct' cable length as my OEM cable went long ago, but whatever pedal position is comfortable for you can be adjusted at the rear threaded end while taking into account the physical 'stop prong' welded to the pedal assembly. At least, that's how it's done on my S2.
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http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/s2work/q/index.htm#4
Adjust as per manual and then evaluate.
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There's a wrinkle, of course. The S1 pedal assembly doesn't have a clutch pedal stop. So the clutch adjustment is really about adjusting the clutch pedal position: Tighten to "raise the pedal, loosen to lower. The only limit is that it has to be fully disengaged at the bottom of its travel.
Your cable is obviously not stock -- not unusual, I'm running a VW type 2 cable myself -- so how much thread is exposed is not necessarily indicative of anything as long as you have enough thread to make the required adjustments.
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I figured it was a matter of measuring throw and hopefully I can get around to doing that today with some daylight.
Funny thing regarding that pedal stop: a previous owner actually replaced the front of the 2 mounting bolts and lock-nuts with a tapped aluminum block to serve as both the nut and a makeshift pedal stop and it seems to work well. Hopefully soon I can do a little more troubleshooting and get the pedal feel and clutch adjustment dialed in.
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I think y'all will appreciate the pic of the car getting loaded onto the tow truck after my first Lotus breakdown! :FUNNY:
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:help:
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Gentlemen, bad news... after a day of small errands and testing around the neighborhood the clutch is acting as it was before. The clutch will disengage at the floor but it won't return, and this time no amount of tightening the cable is pulling it back. I'm thinking that, given that it appears the problem is getting progressively worse as the car is driven, that it must be an issue with the release bearing or the pressure plate failing. Considering how much of the car needs to be disassembled to get the gearbox out I'm not sure when I'll be endeavoring to complete that project but we'll just have to see.
Also I still can't get the fan to work! I tested the original fan currently still in the car and it does not work. I have a new one that I confirmed works and can install it at some point soon, but just to be sure I tried hooking the new fan up to the harness to ensure that it would all work... and I got nothing. I tried both the old relay and the new 5-pin and I can't get power to the fan. I also tired bypassing the thermal switch and dash switch and I still got nothing.
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It sounds like the clutch may be the culprit. Time to remove the transaxle and see.
You need to have someone who understands auto electrics look at your fan wiring.
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Just to confirm a few things:
Does the clutch pedal still move freely, independent of anything else?
Does the clutch cable move freely, independent of anything else?
Did you R&R the cable?
Noticed the cable was not located in the front abutment in your last pic.
Is it now correctly located or has it jumped out again?
Is the cable properly located in the rear abutment?
If all this is OK, then jerry rig a breaker bar to the clutch lever to assess movement – a length of pipe slipped over would seem to be the easiest idea, but whatever works.
Your clutch lever uses an external spring, right? Detach it from the lever temporarily.
On the wiring, I'd make up a test lead with a bulb to establish validity of the wiring.
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JB, I agree with you on both counts! I'll begin to do research on what it's like to pull the gearbox from an S1 or S2 on the forums and prepare myself. Considering it'll be a big job I may as well change out all the hoses and water pump like I was planning on at the same time. I was also thinking of an RB aluminum swirl pot and that may be a good time for that too. I think the last thing I may do is check the continuity of the wires with a multi-meter just to make sure the harness doesn't have a break or bad connection somewhere.
Gavin, yes to all 3; the clutch pedal moves freely when push or pulled to the extremes of its throw, the cable moves as it should with the pedal and I did check and clean and lube the cable with some dry lube (PTFE) spray. The cable is now properly located in both abutments and the problem of the pedal not returning has reared its ugly head again, I managed to drive the car around for a couple days and the pedal got progressively worse until it stopped returning again. I have yet to stick a breaker bar on the arm and try to move it but if i'm able in the near future I'll try and make that happen.
The interesting thing is that when the pedal is depressed, the clutch is disengaged and the car is in neutral. I was able to give the car some gas and then pull slowly the clutch pedal back with my toes and the car would then roll in gear as normal. Maybe my pressure plate springs have failed? Considering the clutch is quite old I think I'll replace all the components on principle to move forward with a a clean slate. A new pressure plate, clutch disc, release bearing, cable and a freshly surfaced flywheel should cover all the bases on a clutch replacement.
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That's a bummer, Dreams.
If you can get a breaker bar on the clutch lever, you could likely 'feel' what's going on.
I'm now wondering if it's ingested a gallon of coolant from the water pump leak and gummed up the doings.
Anyway, I reckon it should be possible to drop the gearbox onto the deck without dismantling absolutely everything.
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I thought there was a possibility coolant could have gotten down into the clutch mechanism through the inspection holes, but the water seems to be leaking down the side of the bellhousing rather than the direction of the inspection holes but anything is possible I guess :-\
I've been reading the manuals all day and it seems the the gearbox removal isn't difficult it just requires the removal of many things ion order to get the gearbox out. I'll plan ahead and make ample time to disassemble it when the time comes; maybe I can get to it come the first of the year. I have to prep my 82 RX& race car for a track day late January so that's gonna take all my free time not devoted to studying. Thankfully that's not intensive it's just nut-and-bolt checking so if I get it done early I can get to the Lotus sooner. Wish me luck, Lads!!
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I haven't done a gearbox only removal myself, but . . .
Me? . . I'd raise the car via the rear hoop for a few inches & install jack stands.
Loosen the engine mount bolts (best to take the top ones out), remove the two long skinny bolts through the rear g/box mount and then disconnect the lower links and drive out the half-shaft roll pins . . should make it possible to lower the gearbox with a floor jack onto your wife's footstool or an old tyre.
Also, the rear gear change tube, of course, and the speedo cable if it looks to be vulnerable to damage.
Then the bell housing bolts are last on the list but disconnect the battery because the starter will be dislodged.
Have I missed anything?
Ask Richard if/where he found some flywheel bolts.
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Gavin the only problem with your idea is my gearbox has to come out of the top because the S1 bottom is fully unclosed! I'll borrow a hoist so it won't be too bad an operation.
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Lads, those of you with Renault powered cars, from where did you source your clutch components when you needed to repair them? I've seen RD has a kit advertised but with no price so I'll email them. Aside from them does anyone else know of anyone or any business? Also what spline pattern does the input shaft/clutch disc use? I've been searching the internet for an alignment tool but can't seem to find one. Does any other make/model tool work?
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The spline has 21 teeth. Some kits come with the alignment tool. Not absolutely necessary as you can line it up by eye, or modify another tool with tape to do the job.
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Toyota Corolla (AE86) and early MR2 (AW11) use a spline that's very very close (21 tooth) but it's for some reason an imperial size (15/16"). I don't think the pilot bearing size (0.4724") would work for the Renault application, but you might be able to build it up with tape.
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Thanks, gents! Knowing its a 21 spline I can go to the local clutch shop and get something close and them make it work with some tape. I'm not confident I can align it properly without some kind of tool.
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I did this at JB ant the internet suggestion.....worked fine.
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Hello all,
I don't have much of an update for y'all yet. I ordered a clutch disc and release bearing from Europe but nothing has arrived yet so I'm still waiting. I also haven't touched the water pump of the radiator fan as I've been super busy with work and holiday obligations. I did try something a little strange however: knowing that I'm going to be changing the entire clutch assembly I decided to take my adjustable neck WD-40 can and spray the input shaft along the release bearing path of travel and now the clutch behaves as it should. I believe that to be a pretty good indicator that the bearing has failed (or is failing) and has been getting hung up on the shaft. It appears I didn't get any lube on the clutch disc as it doesn't slip at all and I can now run short errands around town in the Europa if the urge strikes me which is definitely a nice feeling.
I'm taking my RX7 race car to Buttonwillow Raceway for the University of VARA in late Jan so my priorities have shifted to getting the race car ready, but that's just ensuring the car is still in working order and I'll be focused on the Lotus again soon enough!
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It seems that my parts are arriving very soon and I can begin pulling the gearbox in the near future. Does anyone have any advice or cautions for me for the task of removing the gearbox? Is there anything special I shod replace or inspect while the gearbox is out? should I purchase new roll pins for the axles? Lastly, those of you who have pulled the gearbox how did you get it out of the car? The underside of the engine bay on my S1 is enclosed I was figuring I'd use an engine crane and a couple ratchet straps to lift it over the rear bodywork.
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I would have new roll pins on hand. Sometimes you can reuse them, but not if they're cracked or mangled.
Lifting the trans up over the rear bodywork is the correct way. One man job with an engine hoist.
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Hello all! It's been a long time coming but I'm finally working on pulling the transaxle and changing the water pump on the Europa! In the process of tearing shit down I managed to twist and begin to fray the clutch cable. Does anyone know if any other make and model is close enough in specs to work in an S1 Europa with a 336 gearbox? If not I'll have to place another RD order asap...
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Dave Bean Engineering would probably be quicker for you.
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Alright I've run into a big problem. I have the trans out and I'm trying to remove and replace the old throwout bering because it's toast. The problem is I can't get the pins out of the bearing fork in order to remove the old bearing. Does anyone have any advice on getting them out? Can the bearing be removed without taking the pins off and the fork out??? It's really hanging me up!! :headbanger: :headbanger:
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Ok, it's been a while but I don't think you need to be fooling with pins. The throw out bearing rides in a carrier. As I remember, you just slide it on and off. You may need to pry it with a screwdriver. Try that and report back.
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Pry it with a screwdriver? I’m trying that currently and nothing seems to be happening with that…
Should I try to free it form the fork itself at the flat spots on the sides?? I’m quite stumped
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I have a feeling you are thinking that there’s more to the throw out bearing than there is. What you’re looking to do is take a bearing off the carrier.
Check out this picture (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/tcparts/q/tcqa.pdf). You want to slide the throw out bearing (6) off of the carrier (5).
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Yes that would be great, but it seems that I can’t Somerset 5 and 6 on an S1 or Renault powered car. Maybe the bearing is just frozen on the carrier but I’m really not sure. I’ve tried to separate them but it’s not cooperating
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Oops!! I zoned out! I thought you had a TC. Sorry! :(
Here is the page for the clutch in the workshop manual (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/s2work/q/s2q.pdf). Unfortunately, the parts manual doesn’t seem to mention the throw out bearing.
It isn’t obvious how it comes out but it appears that you pry it out of the carrier but the bearing is deeper in the carrier… but you surely already know that.
Sorry I can’t be more helpful…
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On the 336 transaxle, you can't swing the clutch arm far enough to get the release bearing assembly off. You have to remove the pins in the actuating arm to allow the arm to swing far enough. The pins are hardened and tapered. They do not come out easily. Naturally, there is a factory tool for the job. You won't have one, no one around you will have one, so you have to get them out another way. Look carefully at the bell housing on the other side from the pins. Drill two holes and drive the pins out from the back side.
Once you have the assembly off, use a press to change the bearing.
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JB that is not welcome news...
I'll start looking into that and seeing what I can make happen. The new T/O bearing I purchased is already pressed on the carrier so if I can get they arm to move far enough forward I may be able to slide it off and replace the whole assembly. I'll let you all know how it goes!
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Today I managed to get the spring off of the clutch arm and was then able to move the arm outboard enough to free the fork from the shaft and replace the entire bearing barrier assembly! The gearbox is reassembled and after installing a new right-side output shaft seal I have the gearbox back in the car. The left rear suspension is mounted up and the rot pin is in the output shaft but the right side is now fighting me and winning... :headbanger:
No matter what I do I'm not able to get the pin-hole on the gearbox to align with the hole on the shaft. The pin gave me a little trouble on removal for this side but but nothing that would indicate the holed were misaligned. Also I made sure to tighten the finned seal nut to exactly the same tightness to ensure the bearing preload is retained so I don't think the new seal would cause any alignment issues. No matter how I try and align the splines the holes never seem to line up properly. and no amount of manipulation of the swing arm has helped either. I'm tempted to drill out the hole to a fractionally larger diameter but that would mean the whole in the transaxle output stub would no longer be round but oblong. The new roll pins from RD are slightly bigger diameter than the old ones, too... maybe drilling need be done
Any advice or cautions for me, y'all?
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Rotate it 180 degrees and try it…seemed to matter on mine…you did check to make sure it is shimmed correctly too?
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I tried that more than once as well but to no avail. There weren't any shims on the axles when I removed them. If anything the axle seems to be too far outboard but I can't tell what it is thats preventing everything from lining up. I spent hours trying to ensure the splines lined up appropriately and it seems that they are but maybe somehow they aren't?
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Tapered punch to line it up?
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I'll have to acquire one but that was going to be my next move. The problem with that is it's proximity to the gearbox itself may make it hard to get the punch in there and angled correctly.
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Yep, it's tight in there - often easier to get a straight shot from underneath.
Perhaps just grind down a short bolt to fashion a tapered punch? It's only for temporary lining up purposes so doesn't have to be super accurate.
The roll pin holes are slightly offset from centre so the the yoke and the shaft will only line up in a single orientation. I'd advise not to drill out the holes.
Measure the new roll pins. Perhaps try one in the yoke while it's detached so as to assess the fit.
If the axle appears to be "too far outboard", there's something wrong.
Maybe the spacer is hung up on the O-ring because it's not correctly seated? The shim pack needs to be determined before driving in the pin.
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I was thinking of getting creative with a Dremel tool and a chem screwdriver to fashion a punch! I'll be sure to try and reorient the axle and output shaft to ensure I have the right orientation, but I've tried rotating it more than once and I believe its in the more aligned orientation. I'll have to give it another go.
I've seen many references to the shims and the o-ring. I don't think I noticed them while working on the gearbox. Where are the supposed to be in the assembly? Where do they go? Did someone neglect to put them on my car, perhaps?
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Ok, let's back up a bit.
- First, congratulations on getting the release bearing changed without pulling the pins. A LOT less grief that way. Hopefully that will work for others as well
- You said you changed RH output seal. How did you do that? Did you mark the nut and carefully count the turns? With the tranny already out, it would have been best to pull the bell housing and set things up properly. Still, it might work out.
- No shims? It is deliberately designed to require shims. Make sure everything is clean and the seal-run spacer fully seated, and check again.
- The o-ring is on the output shafts, it goes on first and then the seal-run spacer pops over it.
6140 and 6141 in the diagram below:
http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/s1parts/f/f6.htm
(http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/s1parts/f/F6.gif)
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Ok let me explain better:
-Thanks! It definitely was a lot less effort than trying to remove the pins but it still took some problem solving to get everything apart without damaging anything. Getting it back together was pretty straightforward.
-Yes I did change the right output shaft seal and yes that’s exactly how I did it. Here’s where it gets interesting actually: the finned nut (6141) already had a yellow painted mark on the nut itself and the gearbox case. Also many fins on the nut itself were broken off previous to my attempting anything. I think someone had worked on this gearbox/shaft assembly before and didn’t do the best job. I changed the seal with the gearbox laying on its side on the floor of my garage and was very careful to count the exact number of turns and to make careful note of all the parts in the assembly. There wasn’t an o-ring on the shaft; that may have been the cause of the really bad leak from that assembly come to think of it. Because 6140 wasn’t present when I took everything apart I didn’t install one. Bummer it looks like I’ll be draining the oil again tomorrow and taking that nut off :headbanger:
That all being said the leak I was trying to fix is gone and the gearbox appears to be sealed and not leaking currently.
-I did not see any shims of any kind. That’s really strange. Seeing as this has been taken apart before I wonder if the previous tinkerer forgot to put the shims back in. Come to think of it I don’t recall any on the left side either. Where do these shims go? Between the axles and the output shaft of the gearbox?
Edit: I just checked this diagram to confirm and no spacers were installed on my car. Also the roll pins holding my axles on didn’t have the inner pin, it was just the larger outer ones it seems. Weird…
http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/s1parts/d/index.htm
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"That all being said the leak I was trying to fix is gone and the gearbox appears to be sealed and not leaking currently. "
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Watch it and see.
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There has to be shims unless you are running a twin link rear suspension.
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There weren't any shims on the axles when I removed them. If anything the axle seems to be too far outboard but I can't tell what it is thats preventing everything from lining up.
I think someone had worked on this gearbox/shaft assembly before and didn’t do the best job.
There wasn’t an o-ring on the shaft; that may have been the cause of the really bad leak from that assembly come to think of it. Because 6140 wasn’t present when I took everything apart I didn’t install one.
-I did not see any shims of any kind. That’s really strange. Seeing as this has been taken apart before I wonder if the previous tinkerer forgot to put the shims back in. Come to think of it I don’t recall any on the left side either.
Edit: I just checked this diagram to confirm and no spacers were installed on my car.
No spacers even?
As this progresses, there's a lot of red flags acumulating IMHO.
Given what you've noted above, I doubt there can be sufficient assurance that the ring & pinion is set correctly.
Reluctantly, I think the only way to regain confidence is to extract the gearbox to the healing bench, remove the bell housing and set it up from scratch as per the book.
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JB I agree with you on the leak situation; if it appears to leak again I'll reassess the situation and repair whatever's needed but until them it'll be fine! Previously even just filling the gearbox caused it to leak massively and so far it appears sealed.
JB the car doesn't have a twin-link suspension and Gavin, what you've pointed out are the same types of thoughts I've been having. I won't be able to work on the car really until next weekend so I'll have plenty of time to research the proper repair procedures. I agree and I think the gearbox is going to have to come out for a proper going through in the near future...
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Alright, y’all I may have a big problem…
It appears through my manipulation of the clutch arm in my efforts to change the T/O bearing that I’ve stripped the splines on either the arm itself or the shaft on which it sits. :headbanger:
Has anyone ever removed the clutch arm on a 336? Tomorrow very early I’m going to head to Joji’s and pick up a bellhousing and hopefully remove the arm from that without damaging it, remove my damaged one and swap them out. I’ll swing by O’Reilly and borrow a puller and see what I can make happen. Despite needing to pull the gearbox again I had to button up the car and get it off stands for reasons not car related but now I can’t move the car under its own power and that’s very frustrating.
Any advice on how to proceed? Anyone been in this situation before? JB, do you have any S1 wisdom to impart to me on this??
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Unless I'm totally lost, there shouldn't be any splines on the clutch cross shaft or release bearing fork. There are the two pins that retain the fork and the lever at the cable end should be welded to the shaft. http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/s2parts/q/s2qa.pdf (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/s2parts/q/s2qa.pdf)
Are the pins sheared off?
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I’m at work currently and can’t snap a picture but there are most definitely splines on the arm through which the cable runs.
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Here’s a pic I had showing the end of the splines
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As you can see here:
http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/s1parts/f/f5.htm
The shaft and the arm are supposed to be one-piece. On my transaxle, the arm is welded to the shaft. My 336 is buried and not easily accessed so I can’t say more.
Is your arm free from the shaft?
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It’s quite strange I can tell you with certainty that my arm and shift are splined and not welded. The arm now rotates freely from the shaft, yes. If so many others are welded perhaps I’ll get ahold of someone who can weld and have it welded to the shaft. It makes sense that they’re supposed to be one piece regardless of the method of construction. It’s very strange that mine may be splined.
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My Type 54's original 336 box has a splined shaft like Dreams' but I've never heard of one having stripped the spline.
For what it's worth, it was also possible to swing the clutch fork all the way forward to release the throwout bearing carrier without removing the pins, too. Back in the mists of time it was reported by a couple of people that there's a small nub of metal that may prevent the clutch fork swinging and that this is apparently easily removed. I didn't need to remove any metal so had presumed it to be a casting anomaly of some sort. But yes, the R16 manual states that the pins need to be removed
If Joji has a spare bell housing, that'd probably be quickest.
Alternatively, if you're going to weld the clutch arm, I'd add an additional weld bead extending over the top of the arm so as to tie both elements of the arm together - and also a couple of beads lower down for good measure.
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It's sized for an interference fit and pressed on the spline. Given the forces involved operating the clutch, there is no way you "broke" it while fitting the new release bearing.
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Well I solved one problem but I'm now face with a familiar one. After having gotten responses from y'all and spoken with a few fabricators I did have the arm and shaft welded together. This did solve the problem of the clutch not disengaging when the pedal is depressed! The slightly lager problem is now that everything has been replaced and put back together, the clutch pedal won't come off the floor after it's been depressed and released, which is the problem I started with! :'(
More accurately the pedal does come back some, however in order to get the pedal all the way up and get the car rolling in gear I must pull the pedal toward me with my toes. Once that's been done and the car gets going it all does very well, until I need to shift...
At this point I've now changed the pressure plate, clutch disc and throwout bearing with new, as well as the clutch cable and despite the fact that all those parts were worn and in need or changing, it didn't fix the main problem in the end... >:(
Well, y'all does anyone else have any ideas as to what may be causing my clutch woes??
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Um, you did put the return spring back in place?
And of course you were sure not to heat it during welding.
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Yes the return spring is back in place and we were very careful to not heat the spring. The welding done was very minimal, just 3 small tack welds was all it took. Frustratingly the pedal is behaving exactly as it was before when I first encountered these issues and I'm struggling to determine a cause given that every clutch component is now new.
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Disconnect the cable. Move the clutch pedal by hand. Free and easy to move? Or, is the pedal partially seized and hard to move?
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Was the positioning of the clutch arm to shaft correct when it was welded?
If not, maybe it could be past “center” and not want to return :confused:
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Well y'all, it appears that the clutch issues have now been solved. I took JB's advice and examined the pedal box again and I was able to determine that when the clutch pedal was depressed, the pedal assembly was rotating and twisting toward the driver instead of the cable being pulled. That was causing the both cable to not fully engage the clutch and also causing the pedal shafts to bind prevention the pedal from returning all the way even though the assembly was recently cleaned and lubed. The cause of the twisting issue was the inner pedal mount twisting and allowing the pedals to twist. Interestingly, the inner mount seems to have been designed to have something of large diameter (maybe the shaft, maybe a locating pin) passing through the frame and then also being secured by a small off-centre bolt passing through the frame side. On my assembly there wasn't anything protruding to pass through the lower, larger hole so the assembly was only held in by the smaller bolt. I fixed this issue by tapping the pedal shaft for a 9/16-12 bolt and passing that through the frame with some large washers to serve as the locating device. Now it all works great! I'm thinking of also adding a U-bolt passing over the pedal shafts and through the body to help secure it as well.
The next major project is going to installing and wiring the new radiator fan, but I've encountered a new problem...
The passenger door is now stuck shut and I can't manage to get it open! I was attempting to swap out the push-button with one that has a key for the lock but now the door is shut and I can't get the latch assembly to rotate!! I've tried briefly to get inside the door and twist the latch assembly from inside but I can't get it too rotate. Now I have to figure that out! Any advice for me on that front? Anyone else with an S1 encounter something similar with the stype of latch set-up?
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You going to have to use a flashlight inside the driver’s door to see what’s up. You should still be able to open the door using the inside latch. Something is holding it up. You should be able to spot it by comparing the two sides.
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JB that's where I planned on starting today. Hopefully I can make some progress!
A random cooling system question: when the thermostats fail on the S1 and S2 Renault engines, do they fail open or closed?
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Thermostats are operated by heating wax which opens the thermostat by pushing against a closing spring. That’s why thermostats usually default to the closed position when they fail.
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That’s what I believed to be the case. Thanks for the clarification!
I know grounds are hard to find on these mainly fibreglass cars, but has anyone had an issue with the frame not providing a proper ground even when sanded down and cleaned or any potential insulator? I’m trying to wire up my radiator fan but I can’t find a suitable ground anywhere
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Is the battery grounded to the chassis? I imagine it must or nothing would work.
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The battery is actually ground to the gearbox and that seems to be a properly functioning ground with no issues. I still haven't made any progress given the recent wet weather in Cali so instead of trying to get the fan going I've been messing with some aftermarket gauges and getting parts together to rebuild a crusty Weber 32/346 DGAV I have laying around. That's the same carburetor currently on the car but I want to rebuild one and slap the refreshed one on. Does anyone with a Renault powered car use the DGV? If so have you messed with the jetting or found any tips, tricks or configurations that make it any higher performance than stock?
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Um, I think the transmission would be a poor ground point.
Unless it is grounded to the chassis by a cable it sits in rubber mounts that isolate it.
I suppose that if the mounts are tired they might make contact with the chassis.
Poor grounds are the bane of Lucas electrics.
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Richard you make an excellent point, however the battery and everything else in the engine compartment actually do seem to ground well. It's the grounds in the front compartment that seem to be giving me trouble in regards to the radiator fan. What makes that even more strange to me is the fact that I'm trying to ground that to the factory grounding location!
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Battery is grounded to the engine/tranny unit because of the large starting current. However, there is also a ground strap from the engine/tranny unit to the chassis, usually at one of the engine mounts.
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Alright y'all, once again the rad fan wiring has my beyond stumped...
I still can't get the fan to work!! At this I'm using JB's pin map
purple to 30
double green to 85
black&red/black to 86
black (fan power) to 87
With that wiring set up I cant get it to work. The fan is ground to the front frame T as the new relay doesn't ground to itself as the old one did. Can anyone see what I'm doing wrong?
If I wanted to bypass the thermo switch what would I need to change?
For testing purposes only I wired the rad fan to the heater fan circuit and it turns on with the switch so I'm beyond stumped again. It seems I've hit a wall and can NOT figure this out.
For reference this is the diagram I've been suing for my S2 harness http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/electrical/s2-diagc.gif
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The fan is ground to the front frame T as the new relay doesn't ground to itself as the old one did. Can anyone see what I'm doing wrong?
Is the front frame a valid ground point? Have you tested this?
I ask because you said somewhere up thread that you don't have a ground strap between the engine and the chassis.
If I wanted to bypass the thermo switch what would I need to change?
Just connect the two wires that go to the thermo switch.
If everything else is correct, the fan should run.
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So if I’m bypassing the thermo switch than the double black should just go to the relay? To where does it go; on 86 with the red & black wires? Or does the ground from the fan go directly to those double black wires?
The front frame ground appears to be working for the headlights so I can’t imagine why it wouldn’t work for the fan. I also do have a ground strap from engine to frame so I may have mistyped that earlier.
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Please post photos of the relay wiring, the red fan ground point, and the wiring at the rad fan switch.
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The rain has stymied me here in SoCal so I'll snap some pics as soon as I can. I haven't touched it much in the last 48 hours due to the poor weather. Currently, after much fettling, I have now managed to somehow wire the fan to be on when the ignition is turned switched on so that's a much better situation than it never coming on! Taking advantage of about an hour of sunlight yesterday I drove the car around the neighborhood and it still runs way hotter than it should. With the fan it gets less hot than it did and it takes way longer to get hot, but nonetheless it overheats eventually. I've seen previous threads that I will have to search for again about a Chinese alloy radiator that seems to work well. I hate buying Chinese products for fear of awfully poor quality but a bunch of you seemed to vouch for it and I think that's sold me on it. I can't afford a $1300 radiator from RD right now, but I'm starting to believe that my old copper radiator is simply old and worn and not cooling as well as it should.
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Have you considered having your radiator re-cored? At one time that was standard procedure. It will reduce your anxiety about Chinese quality, save you some money, and you'll end up with a radiator that fits properly. It's important if you go that route (re-coring) that you get the appropriate fins and tubes and the baffle in the inboard tank is installed properly. Years ago, I had an S1 radiator re-cored with fins and tubes used in police cars and it works great.
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Copper is insanely expensive. An aluminium rad will be much cheaper. Get a “thick” one and without a fan as the fan they provide is always sub-par. Fit the largest (usually 11” will “just” fit) and highest output you can get. I almost exclusively, and happily, use Spal fans.
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“It’s overheating”
First off, how do you know that? Is the gauge reading high? Or, is the coolant actually boiling? The most common cause of “overheating” is a gauge malfunction. Usually a failed instrument voltage regulator causing the gauge to read high. Use an IR thermometer and check and see what the actual engine temps are (hottest next to the thermostat) — IR thermometers give a relative reading depending on the properties of the material being read.
The next most common cause is the rad fan. Wiring, relays and switches can all cause issues. One odd one is that it is easy to wire the rad fan to run backwards. Instead of blowing air through the rad and into the wheel well, it draws air in. This works ok-ish at low speeds but, as you speed up, road speed related air pressure will block the fan from pulling air through and lead to overheating. The stock fan is also marginal at best at it s a pulled wired to run as a pusher. Given the curvature of the blades, this results in a 30% to 50% reduction in potential air flow.
The next Europa-specific potential fault is the flow baffle in the rad. Hot coolant from the engine flows in the bottom through the rad bottom, back through the rad top, and, hopefully cooler, out back to the engine. There is a baffle in the side tank between the inlet and outlet. There f this is missing or damaged, coolant will flow straight back out bypassing the core entirely. Remove the top hose and use a bent piece of wire to gently probe and see if the baffle is in place. You can also tell by feel. If the side tank is hot, top and bottom, but the core is cool, then the baffle isn’t there, bent or corroded. Should be hot at the bottom inlet, a little cooler bottom RH, cooler yet at the outlet (if the rad fan is running.
Lastly there are the usuals: corrosion induced restrictions, failing head gasket, faulty thermostat, etc.
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Yes on more than one occasion the coolant has boiled over and left me stranded! Thankfully I always carry a whole bottle of coolant with me in every car, no matter how old.
JB thank you for keeping me honest and helping me check all the boxes before I buy something hastily or attempt to fix something that may not be the cause of my problems! Allow me to further illustrate my troubleshooting up to this point:
Aside from being carless enough to not watch the gauge properly and letting the coolant boil over once and letting the temp gauge get close to maxing out several times now I have measured the temp at the water pump by the temp sender when the car is idling in the driveway after having freshly warmed up and it reads between 180 and 200 F, which seems to line up with the gauge reading between the labeled 85 mark and the next tick hotter; based on that I believe the gauge to be functioning properly. I have not checked the voltage regulator, but the fuel level gauge seems to also be working and that runs through the voltage regulator as well, so I assume it's fine. The oil pressure gauge appears to be faulty (pending further troubleshooting) but that could mean the regulator isn't working.
Up until Monday night I didn't have the fan working at all, but I've now wired it in such a way that it's currently always on when the ignition is on, so the wiring isn't a factor in the current cooling challenges. I'm currently running a modern fan given to me by Joji. I remember you mentioning very early in this thread that the fan is often wired backwards and needs special attention paid to it and I've made sure its both properly wired and blowing the appropriate direction to push air into the radiator and out the wheel well so I know that's not currently the case.
I did previously have an issue where I had a paper towel in the bottom rad hose blocking the radiator inlet, so I've already gone through that and can attest to the parts of the radiator mentioned being heated as described now that the blockage has been removed. In troubleshooting that I also removed the thermostat for fear it may not be functioning and I have yet to put in a replacement in order to troubleshoot with one less variable to contend with.
I don't believe the head gasket has failed as there don't seem to be any other symptoms but I've yet to look into that further. I have no idea whether or not the steel coolant transfer pipes my be corroded and had the flow restricted but I don't doubt that may be a contributing factor. I'd like to upgrade to the stainless one's from RD but I doubt I'll do that for the current configuration. Also the old broken water pump has been replaced with a new one and its working as designed by all indications.
Lastly the temp seems to be fine on the freeway or moving at speed with plenty of airflow. The gauge sits right around the 85 C mark when driving at speed. It'll also come down from higher temps with some sustained high speed driving with good airflow over the rad, but the car still gets very hot pretty quickly (even with the fan going) at slower speeds or at a stop, so at this point I'm believing it to be the radiator being potentially 56 years old and no longer functioning as well as it should be.
Did I miss anything, Gents? Do y'all think I'm headed in the right direction with my radiator hypothesis, or should I look elsewhere?
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You mention a paper towel, so is your radiator core partially plugged from that?
Back in the good old days it was possible to have a radiator "Rodded".
This meant having the top tank removed and then each core had a flat rod run through it top to bottom.
This physically removed all old sludge, scale, or other blockage.
Before spending $$$ you might try removing the radiator and reverse flow flushing it.
Several products are available to remove internal scale/crud, from commercial to white vinegar.
The radiators are not too large, an old tote tube may be big enough to soak the entire part before flushing.
Just my first reaction.
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I've been concerned that there could be a paper towel related blockage. Rodding sounds like a pretty comprehensive procedure to clean all he crap out! I'm not sure if that's the route I'd want to take, though.
Here's an important question I'd like y'all to weigh in on: Is a new aluminum radiator an improvement on the copper one currently in the car? I'm not doing a restoration, my goal is to eventually build a race car out of this pretty worn car so it seems like a good idea to change rads rather than fix the old, potentially worn and maybe even clogged one. I figured if I have to drain the coolant and remove the rad anyway I may as well just change over.
Does that seem reasonable enough to y'all?
I don't drive the car much, maybe once a week the 10 miles each way up the small highway if the weather is really nice so I'm not super worried about overheating in traffic, but the fact that I begin to heat up drastically even sitting at a stoplight is worrisome. Plus I want to change out the temp sensor so if have to drain the coolant anyway may as well do everything at once, right?
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Although aluminum is a good conductor of heat, copper/brass is significantly better. I recently changed out my original brass radiator for a nice aluminum one (not Chinese, but made in the USA by Saldana, a maker of quality custom race car radiators). I used the same aftermarket fan on both radiators. I was not experiencing overheating issues with the brass radiator, I just wanted to take advantage of 11 lbs less weight. With the new aluminum radiator fitted, and no other changes, my car runs warmer and heats up more quickly in slow running or traffic, requiring me to switch on the fan more frequently.
Just food for thought.
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That's definitely food for thought! Did your car heat up past running temp with the fan running on the old radiator? Ow did the car damage to stay cool? Also you say the alloy rad alloys the car to heat up after and the fan needs to be used more often, but does the car stay close to optional temp with the fan on? Is heating up just a Europa foible?
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I've been bombarding Y'all with questions about problem's I've been having I haven't shared much success with y'all. Here's a 10 second video of me pulling away in the Lotus after having finally gotten many of the major issues sorted. I think it sounds great and its been driving really well!
https://youtube.com/shorts/EU47iuHsHBE?feature=share
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That's definitely food for thought! Did your car heat up past running temp with the fan running on the old radiator? Ow did the car damage to stay cool? Also you say the alloy rad alloys the car to heat up after and the fan needs to be used more often, but does the car stay close to optional temp with the fan on? Is heating up just a Europa foible?
First of all, I should mention my car is a Twin Cam, for whatever that may be worth in this conversation.
With the fan running, the car would not exceed normal running temperature under any running conditions. On a hot day in very slow running or stop & go traffic, the needle would climb past 100 c. Switching on the fan would start the needle dropping in a minute or two, and would quite quickly return to the normal running temp, even without the car moving. This is true for both radiators, but the action is significantly quicker to rise and slower to drop with the aluminum radiator, and with the aluminum radiator the fan is needed for normal slowish driving on a hot day to encourage the needle hang out in a comfortable neighbourhood. I only have a few hundred miles on my aluminum radiator, but so far I have been able to reassuringly control the temp with the fan switch.
Also, it may be worth noting that when I say 'hot day', I'm referring to Nova Scotia hot, not Arizona hot.
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My takeaway from these radiator threads is that I will do my best to retain the original radiator.
Aluminum light weight is nice but summer here runs 85º-110º F.
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Thanks for further explaining what the temps do under what conditions! My big problem now is that even with the fan on I still have the issue of the gauge passing 100 C at a stop or slow driving but it comes back down at high speeds, eventually. Its good to know that it shouldn't do that and that behavior isn't normal.
For me down in coastal SoCal the summer is usually between 75-90 F and if its gonna be hotter it's a big deal talked about in the news for weeks so I have plenty of notice not to drive the car! :FUNNY:
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Take the rad to a rad shop and get it tested. Then make a decision after that. If I had a choice between a new copper rad and a new aluminium rad, I’d chose copper. You won’t have that choice however as new copper rads are not available.
Next, go to an auto parts store and get a kit to test the coolant for a head gasket leak. More to come but I ‘m losing signal.
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I can swing by the auto parts store this weekend and get the testing kit. I'll have to search for a good radiator shop near me.
I wonder if the engine overheating and boiling the coolant out warped the cylinder head... There currently aren't any other symptoms of a head gasket failure but it's a possibility I've been afraid of for a little while now...
I guess we'll have to see!