Author Topic: 65/0038R Restoration process  (Read 12980 times)

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Offline TonyWa28

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #30 on: Wednesday,February 20, 2019, 08:24:28 PM »
Looking forward to hearing about your progress!

Offline gideon

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #31 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 06:56:54 AM »
That's a good price for plain foam core.  It's definitely a better option than plywood.  Thanks for the write up.

Offline TonyWa28

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #32 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 07:06:22 AM »
FYI - Called Fiberglass Florida to verify price.  It is $75.57 for 4 x 8 x .5 sheet

I must have been thinking of a half sheet price.  Still very cheap for a nice product.

Offline JasonH

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #33 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 08:02:51 AM »
Thanks Tony  I appreciate the advice on the firewall approach. When I saw the stickers I imagined that the car was driven to some cool races at Riverside, and other events in SoCal.  It also has a seal beach parking pass on the front screen.  So it definitely did it's early days in California before it made the move to Boulder Colorado.
   The fellow that I bought it from told me that the previous owner (John D. Bauer) had it sitting around for years (along with 3 others) and complained that he couldn't keep the wheel bearings from "going out".  This summer I found out when I went through the rear suspension.  The left side stub axle splines were worn pretty round, and the Spacers were a bit mushroomed as well.   So no matter how much you torqued it didn't hold.  So replacement of stub, hub, spacer, and bearings were in order. 
   Currently the front suspension is out at the powdercoaters.  When I get that back I will be rebushing the arms, fix up the Konis, and get it back on it's wheels

Offline JasonH

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #34 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 08:22:36 AM »
The pictures above show the torquing of the hubs.  I certainly got all spooked out with all the comments on the yahoo forum about getting the hubs torqued before the red loctite dried.  Well having the entire assembly out surely sped the process.  After inspecting the hubs I also looked at the trailing arm bushings, motor mounts, and trans mounts.  All looked in the proper condition for 48 year old lightly used rubber.  So all were replaced.  The biggest issue was the motor mounts.  The right side was so bad it had the engine slumped to that direction resulting in the transfer tube rubbing the chassis at the "Y" 
  I can't wait to drive it this summer.

One more note:

 I bought a new hub flange for that right side.  When pressing in the wheel studs it required quite a bit of force.  More than I am used to.  I had to use the hydraulic press to install them.  Normally I have just pulled them in with a wheel bolt.  Couldn't do it with this new flange.

Has anyone else replaced the drive flange,and did you notice that the clearance was a bit tight?


Offline BDA

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #35 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 08:41:59 AM »
Those are pretty!

You probably can't get any other kind now, but the spacers need to be hardened. Also, red Loktite is the wrong one to use on the splines. I can't remember the correct number, but it's made for filling in gaps. We've discussed this elsewhere on this forum. Before I built my car, Dave Bean was telling me to use red Loktite. That was a long time ago so I don't know if Dave ever changed his mind about that. It may work but the proper stuff is certainly preferable.

I can't comment on your hubs. I used the original hubs when I built my car.

Offline TonyWa28

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #36 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 10:07:39 AM »
I like the progress!  You will enjoy the car I promise.  Brit cars are all fiddly (and I've had many), but the driving is a visceral experience.

I know that the loctite suggested for securing the bearings in the carriers back in the day (and probably still) was for sleeve and bearing retention - https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-37424-Strength-Retainer-6-milliliter/dp/B0002KKTIG The hope is that the bearings don't spin in the carrier housing if the bearing gets rough or starts sticking.....). Its a bit thicker and can sort of mitigate some damage if the bearings had spun a bit already. could use on splines as well, but not sure how much that really helps.  I know people use it and it can't hurt..... FWIW - Red seems right for the threads to me.  Hardened spacers are good.
« Last Edit: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 10:11:23 AM by TonyWa28 »

Offline BDA

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #37 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 10:26:46 AM »
I don't remember loctite being called for for the bearings set in the uprights, . I was referring to the loctite called for in the manual for the joint of the hub to the splines in the half shaft.

Quote
2. BEFORE fitting the rear hubs and to ensure a positive fit between the hubs and the outboard drive
shaft, ensure that both the hub and drive shaft are free from grease and dirt. Spray the mating surfaces
with Locquic primer grade 'T' and allow to dry. Apply Loctlte 'High Strength Retaining Compound Type
35'.

I believe Loctite #35 has been supplanted with Loctite #635 and should be used only for the splines.

Loctite for threads is fine and since there is already a D-washer to lock the nut, you get a belts & suspenders deal.

Offline 4129R

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #38 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 11:06:52 AM »
I bought a new hub flange for that right side.  When pressing in the wheel studs it required quite a bit of force.  More than I am used to.  I had to use the hydraulic press to install them.  Normally I have just pulled them in with a wheel bolt.  Couldn't do it with this new flange.

Has anyone else replaced the drive flange,and did you notice that the clearance was a bit tight?

My garage used 6 tons, and could not get the studs to go in any further.

One rotated, so they welded it in place.

Offline JasonH

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #39 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 11:20:41 AM »
Yes... The loctite discussions.  I think it was last summer there was great discussion (again) on this topic.  From those discussions I picked Loctite 277 to glue the assembly together.  I purchased it from McMaster-Carr.  This seems to be the best place to buy things of this nature because they supply plenty of data to assist in the selection of the proper for the problem Here is a link to the particular page:  https://www.mcmaster.com/loctite

I have to admit that I am not one for getting hung up on details like exactly what loctite is needed.  I just figured glue is better than no glue!  So I loosely followed the advice from the forum, and from McMaster I chose the #277 for "gluing" everything.  I will just have to live with my decision.  I will definitely use the #635 for the splines on the next set I do.   
Perhaps if the Europa had wings more consideration would be warranted. 
Speaking of wings I have a Type 54 waiting in the wings. So that ole girl will get the 635 on her splines

As for the spacers Yes they are hardened.  I bought those from R.D. Enterprises.  Back in the day it was mentioned that you could source hardened "drill spacer" of the correct dimension from Aircraft Spruce.  Not knowing that they were easily accessible through the lotus suppliers I looked for them on the Aircraft Spruce website (last summer) and couldn't find them.  I subsequently talked to Ray and he also said that is the only way they are sold.

More entertainment photos taken with Grunschev's Elise.  Nice for size comparison.  Here is the youtube link to his antics at the track I work at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAAOU2ko64s

Offline JasonH

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #40 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 11:22:38 AM »
Ah Good!  Thanks 4129R  I was wondering if it was something with me!


Usually is  ;)

Offline BDA

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #41 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 12:03:07 PM »
There are certainly a lot more different types of Loctite for many different types of uses than I know about but for the most part, we as Europa owners, only need to worry about three - red (271), blue (242), and 635 (I think it's green). The red and blue (and their equivalents from other manufacturers) are readily available at parts stores. r.d. sells small volumes of 635 appropriate for our applications. I'm not an expert on the numbers and the 277 may be equivalent for most uses to 271.

The qualities of these are significant. Red is for threaded parts you don't expect to take apart. You will need to heat it before you can take a red loctited nut off a bolt. Blue is for threaded parts that can't be locked any other way but you will want to easily be able to disassemble the joint. You should be able to take it apart the same way you put it together. The 635 is for splines. It is designed to fill gaps in the splines to ensure there is no movement between the two parts. Heat is required to disassemble the parts. Red loctite is not for this. When I found out just what the old loctite 35 (now loctite 635) is for, I was surprised that Dave Bean advised me using red loctite for that purpose.

I think I would disassemble the red locited hub, clean it up with lacquer thinner (or even better with loctite cleaner) and then reassemble it with 635. I won't say that the red will necessarily be a problem on your splines but now you know the proper stuff to use and if you're like me, that will eat at you in the back of your mind.  :P

Offline TonyWa28

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #42 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 12:53:31 PM »
One source that says red loctite for splines:
http://gglotus.org/ggtech/europa-rearaxle/Eurraxle.htm

and something different from the Europa Competition manual:

"The rear stub axles were installed using "Loctite Shaft and Bearing Mount" on the threads.
The locking nut was torqued to 160 lbs ft. The hubs should be checked for tightness after every
track session as problems have been experienced with stretching and consequent slackening of
the axle shaft nut. It is recommended that the stub axles be replaced after three practice and race
sessions as a precautionary measure."

I think they meant splines instead of threads, but the text says "threads"

Add to that the callout for sleeve and bearing retainer on the carrier as I knew from the 70s and 80s (along with splines) due to the wear in the press fit of the bearings in the carrier housings ( worn due to multiple bearing fittings over time). So now you have three opinions on what and where from the internet (internet is the greatest thing and the worst thing....).  I'm sure there are more.

Now comes Henkel (Loctite Manufacturer) with yet another product - https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/ee/en/product/retaining-compounds/loctite_660.html It specifically says for splines, worn housings, keyways, etc

Even though I've used the green, Henkel specifically calls out that it is for tight fitting cylindrical applications (think bearings on shafts). These splines are not what I would call tight-fitting even when new. 

Historically I agree with BDA, the sleeve and bearing retainer is the better answer for gap filling adn retention in general. Red for threads.  But Henkel now says 660 for splines and filling....  anyway, its all  best used with primer/activator, especially in gap filling situations (again, per Henkel).

my last .02......

Offline 4129R

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #43 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 12:55:11 PM »
Ah Good!  Thanks 4129R  I was wondering if it was something with me!


Usually is  ;)

I had bigger studs fitted. Banks could not drill the holes out, they had to use a reamer to enlarge the stud holes.

The studs are an interference fit with very fine splines which are supposed to embed in the hub. The hub was so hard, the splines would not draw in with the wheel nuts being tightened.

I had to take the trailing arm off, take the arm with the hub and wheel partly on, off the car, use mole grips on the back of the stub to stop it rotating, undo the wheel nut, and then take the car to the garage to press the studs in.

They could not get the studs in any further at 6 tons, so we welded the studs in place to stop them rotating.

Offline JasonH

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Re: 65/0038R Restoration process
« Reply #44 on: Thursday,February 21, 2019, 01:00:50 PM »
Quote
  and if you're like me, that will eat at you in the back of your mind.  :P

You would do that!!! :blowup: