Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Members Cars => Topic started by: JR73 on Tuesday,April 24, 2018, 10:15:51 PM
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Hi All,
New on here so apologies if the pics don’t work as I’m working from my phone whilst away on holiday!
Brief history if anyone’s interested...
My parents bought the car new in 1971 as a kit build from Lotus (I still have all the tags and receipts) it replaced a much loved S3 Lotus 7 that they had bought new in kit form in 1969.
I was transported home from the hospital in the Europa as a newborn baby(!) so it’s fair to say I’ve been around them all my life.
I staked my claim on it early on and after it was retired into the garage when I grew too big for my child seat that was wedged on top of the tunnel between the two seats I used to insist that it was rolled out so that I could clean it and generally explore it as a kid.
Many years later and whilst finishing my engineering degree at Uni (with a desire to go racing) it was time to revive the old girl! - Couldn’t believe my luck when, during one of numerous visits to local classic car shows I met Richard Winter in one of his cars. Banks is 30 mins down the road from where I live and it wasn’t long before I had bought one of his tubular chassis and work started...
After finishing Uni I ended up working at Banks for a few years and needless to say this definitely helped me decide on the final spec of my Europa.
Long story short; it ended up as a full Racer! - the championship that Richard and a few other guys competed in had various classes and the up to 1600cc class suited the cars well so that’s what decided the engine - Vauxhall 1600 8 Valve (somewhat breathed upon) with a 5 speed box, class rules dictated a minimum weight of 640kgs and that was exactly what it weighed when finished! (Wet, with some fuel in the tank...)
I’ll just say it was competitive straight out of the box, first meeting was at the old Anglesey Circuit and I came away with a second in class with fastest lap outright from the first race along with first in class and second overall from the second race (time to retire hey?!) - The championship was effectively the old Modsports Championship that consisted of 6 classes A to F, A to C being silhouette cars with varying engine capacities and D to F were production based of varying capacities (I was in class E). Needless to say there were some well developed and very rapid cars out there so a lot of credit has to be given to the Banks Chassis and Suspension amongst other things.
A couple of years down the line and I had managed to avoid any major mishap but the thought of destroying something that I was so sentimentally attached to meant that I retired the Europa from competition and found something else to build and compete in that I was less attached to. (V8 Esprit as it happened - effectively a BIG Europa!)
I fitted a passenger seat and used it on track days until life and work got in the way a little and it sat in the garage for a year or two...
I’m currently installing the bare minimum required to make it road legal and hoping to have it out on the road again for the summer....
I still have all of the original parts that weren’t used during the conversion - effectively the complete original rolling chassis along with the original interior, body panels etc etc.....you just never know....?!
Hope this wasn’t too boring to read and there’s years worth of nerdy stuff that I’ve left out or forgotten (lucky you!), if you wanna know anything then just ask?!
Jon
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Hello Jon,
:Welcome:
I have no direct links to a Europa as a child, so being taken home from hospital in that very car is a great story! My earliest memory of Lotus was F1 in the early 70’s and a small purple Corgi / Matchbox Europa which was my favourite (as it was so different to most other cars!)
I look forward to seeing your progress as you make your car road legal.
Mark
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Thanks, it won’t look much different tbh! - I have made a matching seat for the passenger side (moulded fibreglass bucket the same as the drivers that you probably can’t see in the pictures) to go with a four point harness, I’ve made a separate wiring loom for everything that wasn’t needed to go racing - so all the lights are now connected up and there are a couple of small (and basic!) clip in panels to hold any switches.
The rear calipers have always been the Banks Kit which uses Ford Sierra Cosworth calipers that quite handily have provision for a handbrake so all I have to do is connect it all up (took a while to locate my original handbrake pull after being stored away!)
There are a few other bits to do like mount and connect up an alternator as the racer didn’t need one - might make one concession to the Mrs and then fit a smaller battery and reduce the size of the battery box in the passenger footwell (intention was to ‘treat’ her to a nice pad on the top so she could stretch her legs!!!!lol but it really isn’t that practical for getting in and out!)
The idea is so I can remove all the road related stuff fairly quickly if I ever want/need to.
I had that very same Purple Matchbox car! - still got it too!
Pic of me washing the car a little time ago.... I definitely don’t have the hat anymore!!!!!
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I’m looking forward to reading about your progress, your mrs will be very grateful if you provide room for her to get in/out and stretch her legs when in!
You should take a similar photo (with hat) washing the car!
Mark
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Lol, the picture has already been done! - was even taken on the same driveway by the same person that took the original too!!!!! Didn’t have any brown clothing to wear, or a hat though........!!!
I will try to find it when I get home from hols...
My Mrs would use any excuse to stay out of it, the only experiences she’s ever had of it is as a passenger on a track day and she says I always drive too fast....... I know....!!!
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:FUNNY:
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Found a few more pics.
First one is from Anglesey (my first race meeting as a competitor - end of 2000), going into the second lap - how many Europas can you spot?!! (It was a full grid and every Europa competing has somehow been just about captured in this pic - even massively out of focus in the background!!).
Ian Wilson (also worked at Banks at that time) can be seen adjusting the length of the grass on the infield! - he won the championship outright that year in a similar Class E car.
Second pic is again Anglesey, same weekend. White Banks 47 had a 2.0 Vauxhall XE fitted with some fairly serious horsepower.
Third pic was taken on the first lap at Oulton Park (again, end of 2000) - desperately trying to make up as many places as possible whilst staying clear of everyone as is usual after the start!
Fourth and Fifth pics are from a track day at the new Anglesey circuit years later (2008) - Caterham was being both run in (it was new) and introduced to proper tarmac! My Mrs is looking at the 7’s engine trying to think of a reason why she doesn’t have to go back out as a passenger with me!!!
Sixth pic is a group shot of my favorites! 7 was freshly built and awaiting its Reg plates and finishing touches (correct wheels/tyres along with a geo), Europa is on its storage wheels (slicks need to be looked after!) and the Esprit was nearing completion (7 took less than a week to assemble vs 3 years on and off to build the Esprit! - I couldn’t wait!!)
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Jon,
some great photos and the Europa survived intact... it’s not often that cars survive unscathed.
that last photo shows a very good selection of cars!
Mark
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Hi John, :Welcome: your opening story is the best I have read for a new member! Gotta love the Lotus from birth connection. More importantly you were able to keep the original Europa “in the family”. Looking forward to hearing more about your development of the car.
PS, both my sons have been exposed to many Lotus cars since birth. I can’t admit they were ever in a car seat in a Lotus (against the law here in the States) but they both have a huge amount of seat time and eventually driving time in Lotus cars.
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Wow! Great story and :Welcome:
This forum hosts a range of expertise (with mine squarely in the neophyte end, but learning). Hoping you'll share your experience as a regular contributor, and as always, POST LOTS OF PICS!
On the subject of kids in cars, I put my sports car obsession on hold when my son was born and I had to drive him (in a rearward facing baby car seat in the passenger side) and my precious daughter (sitting on a boat cushion on the back shelf of my Alfa Spyder with a rope for a seatbelt) to daycare/school every morning. Thus began the dreaded Volvo years.
Tom
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:Welcome: Jon!!!
That is a great story. You have to have the record for the percentage of your life with a Europa connection!
Your car is certainly interesting and I, for one, am interested in your time with Richard! I have a lot of his parts on my car. I'm also interested in how Richard operates. For example, I heard once that Banks was basically a one man operation.
I see you've posted a few times already today so I hope that means you'll spend a lot more time with us in the future! Keep those pictures coming!
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Luckily, I suppose, the laws were pretty slack here when I was a kid - Dad did at least as good of a job fixing my kids seat between the two main seats as Lotus did of fixing the other two in place! Don’t think much of it would pass any regs these days though...
I’m just very grateful that he wouldn’t give it up and saw just how much I loved the car!
It’s fair to say that I used to drive my parents mad with all things Lotus and Europas especially - pocket money was saved for anything I could find!!
It’s been few years since I was totally absorbed in all things Europa at Banks but if anyone has any questions then feel free to ask away - I might not be super quick to respond at all times but that’s more related to me trying to remember correctly?!
I still spot Europas that I recognize from my days at Banks, either full restorations, fresh builds or general servicing etc - standard or modified, we pretty much covered everything.
When I was there Richard employed around 8 people plus himself, I know things have changed since then and a few years ago when I last called in to buy something from him it appeared to just be Richard there on his own. If demand is still what it was when I was there then I don’t know how he manages to keep up, all of his stuff was made on site; chassis, suspension, brake kits, Twin link kits, interior trim, fuel tanks.... and he always has at least two interesting projects on the go!
Cheers for the replies.
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I was transported home from the hospital in the Europa as a newborn baby(!) so it’s fair to say I’ve been around them all my life.
I staked my claim on it early on and after it was retired into the garage when I grew too big for my child seat that was ‘wedged’ on top of the tunnel between the two seats I used to insist that it was rolled out so that I could clean it and generally explore it as a kid.
I love everything about this paragraph!!
Welcome to the forum, Jon. It's good to have you aboard. Enjoy. Cheers :beerchug:
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Welcome to the forum, that is an amazing story. That is a nice stable of cars you have there. Very much a Lotus dream line up.
I wasn't brought home from the hospital in a Lotus but shortly after about 2 my car seat was in the passenger side of my family's Elan and Mom daily drove it. I remember my parents taking me to the local race track Westwood I would sit behind the passenger seat on a pillow. Ah the days before strict safety laws. Now I'm lucky if my wife even thinks the cars are safe enough for my kids to ride in them period, 1st world problems really, LOL.
Cheers,
Ross
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Cheers Ross, It certainly didn’t do us any harm travelling around in them did it?! - probably cost us a fair bit financially since though by planting the seed that has us buying, running and maintaining the cars that we own and love!!!?
Dad used the Europa as his daily driver (his only car in fact) so just like you I have great memories of going to different places in it. Years later after he retired the Europa he kinda worked his way back up the car ladder and we had an Excel as a family car! Two adults and two teenagers travelled all around the uk in that quite happily. - still got that one in the family fleet! You’ve all probably got the idea that I come from a car and Lotus mad family (my brother is just as bad!).
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:Welcome:
Amazing Lotus story!! Looking forward to reading your posts.
I have some fleeting/hazy memories of a trip from NC to Miami FL, in the back of my parents Austin Healey 3000. Think I was 3 at the time. But from birth? Lotus and you are part and parcel!
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:Welcome:
Love the look on your passenger's face in that first set of pics!
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Well noticed Chuck! - if pictures only had sound too...! It’s pretty loud in there, even with decent helmets on but that’s my Mrs and she was making more noise than the car! - so much that it was making me laugh and slowing me down.....!
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:Welcome: JR73,
Wonderful story and a great pictures. You definitely have a true connection with your cars.
Dakazman
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Fortunately someone managed to record her comments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8gmqZu6z8s
(must say that Riccardo's wife is a great sport about it in the end)
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Love that video!
The Bmw M3 one around the Nurburgring is also a close rendition of my own personal experience!!
I’m now armed with a GoPro to record any future reactions!! - it will happen at some point...
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Great story - not boring at all. Welcome
Maybe you could consider a move back into the Europa biz. Richard probably needs some help, and a successor!
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My days of working on other people's cars are pretty much done now, after Banks I went self employed for 8 years building and prepping race cars (mainly Lotus based) - got to a point were I didn't have the time to even touch my own cars, never mind actually drive them and an opportunity to work in the composites industry was too good to refuse...
A few more pics that I found from different angles, most of the conversion back to road has been done now (no decent pics as it's trapped in the garage by another project that has to take priority...), just the handbrake left to connect, passenger seat to finish and the springs to swap so my retinas don't detach!!
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Whilst digging through all the paperwork earlier I found some things that I thought might be of interest to a few of you. Needless to say, my car is 0159P. Supplied new as a kit.
Firstly the build tags relating to the various stages that the car passed through at the factory and through to delivery, each stage is dated and signed off (painted stage has the wrong year, easily done on 4th Jan I suppose!);
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Next up is the original warranty certificate followed by the invoices, note that the engine, gearbox, front and rear suspension, exhaust, battery, wheels and tyres where supplied by Racing Engines Ltd - which as you can see was Lotus Cars from the address. This, I'm led to believe, was part of the set up to avoid having to pay purchase tax on what would have otherwise been classed as a complete car from one source (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong though?!).
Also, the Renault delivery note can be seen detailing the engine and gearbox as supplied to Lotus.
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WOW! nice documentation.
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Very nice! A paper trail is nice to have.
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Found this picture taken by my Dad in Scotland when my car was brand new (easy to tell because he added a wing mirror not too soon afterwards!) whilst touring all around Scotland - full camping equipment on board too!
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After far too many years of saying that I'd convert my Europa back to being road legal I'm made up to say that it is finally MOT'd, Insured and Taxed for use on the road!
Needless to say that the trip to the MOT was in absolutely torrential rain (what better conditions for the first drive of what is still a race car on the public highway?!) which made it all the more interesting for sure... no issues on the test, home again and off to the post office for a full years free road tax (the amount I spend on the other cars made it feel all the sweeter!).
Eventually the rain stopped and the roads dried out enough to fine tune the ride height and tweak the dampers so that my eyeballs get chance to focus and I don't need to book a weekly visit with the dentist to rebuild shattered teeth! Having driven many other Europas on the road it feels quite strange to finally be driving my own, stranger still to drive it in a reserved manner in order to stay within the speed limits (!) as opposed to maximum attack on track for the last 20 years...!
There are a couple of further jobs that I want to do, mainly cosmetic tbh, before I venture out further afield with the Mrs and take some scenic pictures (of the car, not her!) but for now here are a few pics of it wearing its number plates once again and 'road legal'!
Jon
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Congratulations on your (or your car's) MOT! Hopefully you'll get many happy road miles on it now. She looks beautiful!
Maybe you can give us some more particulars about your car? For example:
What size tires and wheels
What spring rates
Which shocks and what setting
Alignment
What modifications
Motor details
I'm sure a lot of us would like some insights that your racing experience and your experience with Richard gave you.
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Thank you BDA.
As requested (best you ask as I'm bound to miss/forget the intricacies!)
Wheels are Richards 3 piece split rims, made as a replica of the 4 spokes fitted to the 47's. The manufacturer of these is Image Wheels and you can buy a VERY similar wheel directly from them now but they have repositioned the wheel nuts (probably because Richard owns the rights to his version or something?).
Fronts are 15" x 7.5"
Rears are 15" x 8"
The slicks I raced on where Avons - the softest compound available for slicks in the correct sizes was really meant for much heavier Touring Cars so it took a good few laps to get them up to temperature but the advantage of this was that they lasted a fair few events (!) and I tended to be able to take advantage of the improved performance from them in the second half of a race as most people where starting to ease up or even cook their tyres on a hot day...
The fronts where 7.5/21.5-15 and the rears 8.0/21.5-15. The 21.5" is what Richards suspension geometry was designed for - trying to find road tyres to fit those wheels with the same overall size was a real chore - especially as I wanted something at least a little performance orientated. Avon had exactly the correct size (basically a cut slick road legal tyre! - ACB10sport) but I didn't want to stump up the quite extortionate price for these until I had actually got the car on the road to see if it was going to be enjoyable/useable!
I have Toyo r888's on the Caterham and being able to purchase different compounds would make them my first choice for the Europa BUT the sizes aren't quite correct which would have caused issues with clearance, the next best thing in my opinion was their T1r so I currently have 195/45/r15 on the front and 205/45/r15 on the rear. I haven't had chance to investigate the ideal tyre pressure to run these at on the road just yet but Toyo recommend an operating pressure of around 26psi.
Raced on various spring rates, up to 450lb on the front and generally stuck with 250lb on the rear. Also had a selection of adjustable high level front anti roll bars (based on Richards design but of different diameters etc) to select from. Richard used to discourage anyone from fitting a rear anti roll bar (I never fitted one) and I don't know if he still does but I did fit them to a couple of cars and saw a measurable improvement from having one fitted on track at least.
For the road I have opted for 250lb front and rear, 250lb fronts is what we used to fit to the Banks chassis cars that where for fast road/track day use with around 180lb on the rears.
From the initial road miles I have done this weekend I'm quite happy with 250lb front and rear so far....
Shocks fitted are Richards race spec Avo adjustables - relatively cheap in the world of race spec shock absorbers but they have been pounded around many race tracks over the years and I can say that they have survived really quite well! The single way adjusters give a noticeable difference across the range of adjustment (in a wet race I used to disconnect the anti roll bar and go full soft on the dampers front and rear which made things supple enough to gain some grip in the conditions) this was altered to suit conditions and tracks along with the spring rates.
For the road I have settled on 8 clicks from soft on the front (14 clicks total) and 3 from soft on the rear. This gives me quite a firm ride but feels compliant enough over bumps etc. - my personal preference tbh.
I can't remember the full alignment figures off the top of my head (can't find my setup book either atm!) but I know the front has 0 toe and I'm pretty sure I run the same on the rear. Camber/castor escapes me atm but I run negative camber at both ends but differing amounts...
Worth mentioning here that I have Richards tubular chassis with the double wishbone rear suspension, this is fitted with his race spec bushes all around and these give zero movement fore and aft but are very free moving in the vertical - you don't have to sit the car at ride height to tighten any of the suspension bolts for example.
The other benefit of this chassis is that you can dial out any bump steer at the front by careful shimming of the rack at its mountings. Also the rear geometry has no bump steer and minimal camber change through its full range of movement - the top wishbone mounts are further inboard than the Spyder versions for example which allows the top and bottom wishbones to stay parallel as they move. - I don't think many people really appreciate the amount of engineering that went into Richards chassis, yes it basically replaces an original and fits in the same space but there are so many areas that have been subtley redesigned for the better that I think even Richard himself has forgotten about half of them!
As for further modifications - probably best to say that the original body shell was used (much lighter than the modern replacements can get close to!) but with a fibreglass bulkhead bonded in place and the front indicator mounts flushed across the top but left open to give a small amount of extra air into the front plenum as the radiator now vents out through the front bonnet and the mounting for the radiator forms a duct that only allows the air that passes through the front grill to go through the radiator. Other than the above mods the body is the most standard part of the car! Everything else is different from original or modified at least... the majority is available from Banks as far as I know?
Quick spec of other parts;
Vented front discs with Banks spec calipers
Solid rear discs with Banks spec calipers
Banks balance bar adjustable pedal box with twin master cylinders - 0.7's from memory as I'm not currently near the car and no servo assist
Banks tubular front wishbones with camber adjustable top wishbones
Quick release steering wheel, race seats that allow the driver to be positioned closer to the centre tunnel which also improves the ergonomics relating to wheel/pedal/seat alignment. 4 point Willans 3" lap and shoulder race harnesses.
Banks multipoint bolt in roll cage
Polycarbonate fixed side windows mounted in lightweight S1 style doors and poly rear window with vent holes(if not for the weight saving its SOOO much easier to fit than the glass original!!)
5 speed gearbox with Banks gear linkage - the linkage kit properly set up is like a rifle bolt in precision and well worth the money!
As for the engine... originally fitted to a Vauxhall Nova Gte/GSI it's a 1600cc, 8 valve. All tuning parts purchased from Enem.
Crank, Rods, Pistons, Flywheel - lightened, balanced, ARP bolts throughout, higher compression.
Cylinder head - large valves, solid lifters, full race cam, flowed to suit, Twin Weber dcoe 45's with intake manifold to suit - this is a work of art to look down as it is blended/flowed to match the intake ports to perfection!
Tony Law race exhaust system with repackable silencer.
Engine revs to 9000rpm and produces 175bhp at the wheels. (Did once rev it to 9500rpm in the heat of battle but broke a follower - still managed to finish)
In race spec the car weighed 640kgs with fluids (class limit!) and in road spec now weighs 650kgs
Can't think of anything else but there is probably all sorts that I've forgotten
Not really sure where to begin with recounting my time working for Richard? By all means, ask about anything you may wish to know...?
Jon
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Whew! Thanks Jon! That's a lot more than I expected! That was a lot of great information. You certainly had a well thought out and sorted car. I have no trouble believing that Richard's tube frame is very nicely done but unfortunately, I didn't know about Richard when I got my frame (I have a Spyder frame before they went to their tube frame).
I was interested, and I figured others would also have an academic interest in your setup for your race car but I was mostly interested in your street setup, especially since Richard advised me when I built my car.
I have Richard's adjustable front upper A-arms and stock lower A-arms. I also have an early version of Richard's twin link rear suspension (it has a much larger cross member). Richard suggested 250# springs in the front and 130# in the rear. I have SPAX shocks that I got before I hooked up with Richard. I run 195/50-15 tires in the front and 205/15-15 in the rear. I also have Richard's vented front discs and solid rear discs. So in some ways, our cars are a somewhat similar.
Question: What did you do for rear stub axles? Did you live with the stock axles or did you go with Richard's hardened shafts?
But I was mainly concerned about my spring/shock setup. I had been experiencing a "nervousness" in the car at high speed. I felt that even slight steering inputs would cause much greater changes in direction than I wanted so it required a lot of attention. I've been working on my alignment (it turns out that I had more caster on the left than the left, which I've fixed now) and I am going to have my rear toe reduced mostly for tire wear. I recently learned a little bit about how shocks impact handling so I've started stiffening up my shocks but wondered if they might become too stiff before they helped with stability but from what you're reporting, I probably shouldn't worry so much about that.
Your comments about a rear roll bar are interesting. My car feels more inclined to oversteer so a rear bar doesn't seem to make sense but then there's what you saw...
I'm sure I'll think of some more questions given time...
Thanks for your taking the time to give all those details! She sounds like a great car with a wrench and driver to match!
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I did go on a bit there....!
The rear uprights are Richards own fabricated ones that where designed to go with his double wishbone setup, as a result the bearing carriers, brakes and driveshafts are all of Ford Sierra origin (I'm sure this is no secret as exactly the same components where used on Caterham's for many years) with the shaft length either modified to suit from some standard Sierra sourced parts (cutting the shaft and turning a peg and dowel on each half, fitting together and then welding around the joint) or having some fabricated to suit. - mine are original spec cut n shuts!
The inboard and outboard joints are as per the Ford, bolting to either flange (you can remove them without dismantling the outer hub and by leaving the gearbox output flange in place) and Richard has the gearbox output flanges manufactured to fit straight on the Renault transaxle.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I retired the Europa from racing (for fear of it getting smashed up! - far too attached to it to see that happen!) and built a big Europa in the form of an Esprit V8.
With the frame setup you have mentioned fitted with the twin link rear the Esprit is basically the same design as what you have (can't argue with Lotus suspension design being pretty good can we?!) - the stock road car drives great and I have done a few road miles in different Esprits including the V8's to say that I've never had any handling issues to be concerned about.
However, my racer with sticky slicks and an increased power output was initially somewhat different.... again, all the suspension bushes where changed from the original spec to either solid or rose jointed - rear links are now all rose jointed as the geometry on the rear of an Esprit requires some 'twist' in each joint as the suspension is raised/lowered due to it tracing an arc from the trailing arm front pivot point.
When it was first built though I discovered that when fitted with polybushes in the rear upper and lower links the suspension locked out at either end of its range - this then transferred forces into the trailing arm pivot (big rubber bush just like on a Europa) which caused it to deform and the toe alters as it does so. The rear wheels where basically steering due to the trailing arm pivot being pulled and pushed due to a combination of much stickier tyres, increased horsepower and stiffer bushes. Apart from going to rose joints on the upper and lower links the answer was to also replace the trailing arm pivot with what is effectively a large rose joint that mounts to the frame in the same way as the stock one which doesn't allow any deformation - all the works prepared Esprit race cars I've seen have this very setup and it definitely made a difference to the handling on mine.
It may be worth investigating on yours - remove the rear spring and move the suspension through its range from full droop to full compression and pay close attention to the front pivot to see if there is any change in the rear toe? I've never checked that on a Europa fitted with a twin link rear so I could be barking up the wrong tree so to speak...
The rear anti roll bar would just allow for further fine tuning of the rear suspension relative to the front... it does what it describes, controls the body roll which means that you aren't relying on the spring and damper setup to resist the roll (can end up with stiff springs and hard damper settings to try to prevent body roll - the bar would be taking care of that which would allow for softer springs and damper settings for example) - I haven't fitted one to my car as I always found it quite neutral handling which allowed for under and over steer at the limit depending on throttle and steering inputs.
Are you actually experiencing oversteer or do you get the sensation of it oversteering when cornering?
Apart from checking the rear links and pivot for movement it could be caused by tyre pressures, ride heights front to rear, damper settings..... I've read that you used to race so I'm sure you know how to adjust these things out but remember that any change you make at the front is relative to the rear and vice versa - if the rear feels loose it could be that the front is too soft relative to it...if you get what I mean?!
Another war and peace.....sorry!
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Thanks again for your very detailed reply and the mini vehicle dynamics lesson! As you Brits say, every day is a school day!
I did race many years ago but the funny (or stupid) thing is that I am learning more about vehicle dynamics now than then. Looking back, I wish I had experimented more back then but most of my races were seven or more hours away. There might have been track days then but if there were, the closest would have been at Road Atlanta over ten hours away. I pretty much aligned my Lola as they told me to (it had non adjustable shocks) and it seemed to handle really well so I didn't mess with it too much. Oh, I was also going to school during this time so my time and resources were pretty limited. All that being said, it was a lost opportunity to learn more that I regret. Now that I'm a "pensioner" I have more time monkey with my car (which may not necessarily be a good thing!) but my car is my hobby now.
I should say that my purpose isn't to have a track car but probably closer to an autocross car - even though I don't intend to autocross it. Just something that handles well so it's more fun to drive faster than I'm supposed to.
Anyway, now I'm concerned with the handling of my Europa so I'm trying to learn more. I'm about to convert the rubber bushed rod ends to spherical rod ends - mainly to make it easier to assemble. After that, other than the inboard upper link, all the links will use rod ends. My trailing arm pivot is the stock rubber bush. In the front, I'm using the stock bushes and I still use the stock anti roll bar - no bar in the rear. Richard suggested front pressures between 15 and 18 psi. and rear between 26 and 26. So that's a more complete picture of my car suspension wise.
No I don't actually get oversteer but going into turn it feels like it wants to swap ends. After alignment, which will I will get more serious about after I get my rod ends installed, adjusting my shocks is were I plan to experiment next. At the moment, I've stiffened them three clicks all around (these are pretty old and there may only be 14 clicks total) and it seems to be a bit more stable but I haven't tried it on the highway yet to be sure. I'll probably try stiffening the front shocks more next. Somebody suggested
Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
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Jon, the detail is great. Keep writing.
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Congrats. Your Europa is gorgeous and makes a fine road car. That's a very interesting treatment for the front signal lights. An neat mod for those who don't like the signal light warts.
Are those interior door latch pulls on the upper surface of the doors (at the base of the window)? Another very interesting mod. Was there a specific reason for putting the latch release there?
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BDA, I set mine up with minimal rear toe and it felt just like yours. I added a bit more rear toe and it felt much better, I plan to add yet more soon.
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Bainford, yes they are the interior door latch pulls mounted on the upper surface of the door - there is a slot in the side window to get your fingers through to lift the flap so that you can use the one pull to open from the inside and the outside - a nod towards weight saving and a way of reusing some of the original parts.
The indicator light 'warts' where removed when I had no intention of using it on the road so everything was done with the track in mind - that was just a way of retaining a nod to what was there but using it as a vent for air into the plenum area.... I have simply used some small motorcycle indicators that fit inside what was left as I didn't want to return the original 'warts'!
BDA, good to hear that you are already heading down the trail of fitting rod ends to the upper and lower links - it should compare quite closely with what I found was happening on the Esprit tbh.
The reason I asked if you had actual oversteer or the sensation of it was because I too found that there was no actual slip occurring but the sensation was there which was quite unnerving at high speed - as the outer rear wheel was loaded up through the corner the area that allowed the most movement was the trailing arm pivot bush, this was made worse still when the upper and lower link bushes effectively locked out as it put even more force on the pivot bush which pulled it through the chassis a small amount and toed the rear wheel out more than it was set too - gives the sensation of oversteer as the inner rear wheel doesn't have the same loading and is likely set with toe in which then means that you are kinda 4 wheel steering (end up tracing a tighter radius around the corner than you intended....) you may need more toe in on the rear to prevent the outer rear from being forced into a 'toe out' value when heavily loaded?
I would have gone the opposite way with tyre pressures than what Richard has suggested - mainly because the weight is biased towards the rear tyres slightly and the power is transmitted through them so they get worked more than the fronts so you should get more heat into them quicker which increases the pressures - ultimately you are trying to get all four to the same operating pressure... also the soft fronts will give you increased turn in and the harder rears in relation to this will give you less lateral grip which can promote oversteer. Look at Drift cars - they run soft front ends to promote turn in with hard rear ends (suspension and tyres) to help break traction....
I have 14 clicks of adjustment too, if they are working as they should then you will have more than enough to play with and make a difference.
Try a harder front softer rear setup - promoting the rear to get a better grip of the surface and the front less so (relative to one another).
Ultimately it can come down to personal preference, driving style can play a factor in it too - pitching hard and late in towards an apex can promote the rear to break traction compared to a smooth and flowing turn in - bank robbers in the movies could get away from the cops much quicker if they spent less time sideways and sawing at the wheel....! Ha ha. (You know what I mean though?!)
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JB, I look forward to hearing more about your rear toe experiments since our rear suspensions are pretty similar. What toe in are you running now?
I originally had my rear toe set on a rack to be in the middle of the stated spec - 3/16". I have a note in my notebook that I measured it at 35' which converts to .23" so there is some confusion there but I'm sure that I had a decent amount of toe. My rear tires wore out in about 8000 miles so I'm going to have it set with less toe in and see how that goes.
I was interested in Jon's comments that he ran with essentially zero to in front and rear and said it felt good to him.
Jon, since I have owned my car since new, I have a memory of how it used to handle on the highway and back then. I had 90 mph for hours on end with little effort. More recently, I've driven 90 mph and it required quite a bit of concentration. Also, I don't remember that sensation that the rear would come around so I need to do some more tuning to address the changes I've made!
WRT rear toe in in hard turns, I doubt seriously I have or will stress my trailing arm bush nearly as much as you have and like I say, the feeling that it was trying to swap ends in a turn wasn't something I remember feeling when the car was stock so I'm looking more at shocks and alignment - and now tire pressures as potential fixes. I have considered ball joint trailing arm pivots but they are on a list of potential upgrades that seems to grow the more I do to my car!
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The alignment settings on my Europa where arrived at from being able to see what was working on all the other cars I was involved in setting up at the time (at Banks) along with getting to know a couple of guys that had been racing for many many years - one of which was running a near identical car to mine and as I was building my car I was crewing for him at the track and helping to decide on setups etc (we must have got something right because he won the championship! - good driving being the major aspect though!!).
The spring rates that he and I used, along with the anti roll bars that we fitted were somewhat against Richards advice at the time tbh (we figured that they where our cars so we would try whatever we thought would work!) and after him winning the championship there wasn't much to suggest that we were wrong....!
Lots of factors played a part in the decisions, there is a way of reading the grain on slick tyres - you can see what effects the toe, camber, tyre pressures, damper settings etc are having by looking at how the tyre is wearing, changing colour, graining up etc.
Being able to watch the attitude of the car as it's cornering can be useful (maybe get somone to film you around a selection of corners that you can revisit after making some adjustments?)
Obviously driver feedback is important too - doesn't matter how correctly you think something is set up on paper, if the driver isn't comfortable with it then they won't enjoy driving it - we had similar driving styles and VERY similar cars so it was easier for us to compare notes on all of the above so to speak.
BDA - I wouldn't suggest that you should run zero toe all around tbh, it would probably be fine on the front but with the trailing arms setup I would expect you to need some toe in. (Even with rose joints on every suspension point on the rear of my Esprit i still run some toe in on it. - the wheel doesn't have a 'clean up and down movement' so to speak.) before I changed the trailing arm pivot I could see movement in the pivot bush by removing the rear springs, putting a jack under the rear chassis hoop and with a set of tracking gauges on the rear wheels I could see the toe alter as I jacked the rear up and down. - an easy enough test for you to try? Hopefully you won't have any movement but at least you will know.
Having the same sized tyres as me I'm pretty sure that makes them wider than original? - I doubt the workshop manual settings would be optimal for those either. I'd be interested to hear about your findings and suggest that you don't change too much at once, it may take a little time but it's best to change one thing at a time and record the difference in the form of a set up chart to refer back to.
Bainford, cropped close up of the slot in the window to operate the door latch
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The little fooling around I've done, I've noticed that the camber and toe change a lot with the ride height. I think your test in a valuable exercise. After I get the upper link rod ends in and aligned, I'll do it and see what happens. In any case, I agree that toe in is needed for stability on the highway. My idea is to use as little toe in as I feel comfortable with so I can get a bit better tire wear. (It seems that mid engine cars wear their rear tires out pretty quickly. I don't know why it would be any worse than a front wheel drive car!)
As for camber, someone posted somewhere that his idea was to go the minimum negative camber since the tires are more "square" than the tires in the '70s. My last set of rear tires wore evenly but quickly. Unfortunately, I didn't take good notes on the alignment I was using with them. I'm running -30' at the moment. Taking your point that the stock alignment specs may not be appropriate for our tires, it might be worth experimenting outside the stock specs but the manual states rear camber should be between -30' to -1° 30'. I wouldn't think experimenting with more negative camber but maybe less than -30'.
I'll start seriously investigating after I get my rod ends installed and a starting alignment done. I'll post what I find out.
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Bainford, cropped close up of the slot in the window to operate the door latch
Thanks for that. A very interesting mod.
And thanks too, for the detailed set up and chassis info you have been regaling us with. I'm digging the discussion. School is in!