Author Topic: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions  (Read 546 times)

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Offline pkragen

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1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« on: Wednesday,December 13, 2023, 09:14:01 AM »
I'm most of the way through rebuilding my S2 transaxle and am having a bit of trouble with the crown wheel adjustment using the finned nuts. I believe the seal inside the finned nuts is contacting a bearing surface, and this is preventing the nuts from going in all the way. The first picture is one of my finned nuts with the seal partially pressed in. It's unclear to me whether I just need to press the seal in further, or press the seal out, spin it around, and then install it the other way. The previous owner had the seals installed the other way (there are signs they had the finned nuts off at some point)- however they also made some other pretty questionable choices so I wasn't ready to trust they installed them correctly. Additionally, in the Rdent online parts manual (https://rdent.com/manuals/europa/s2parts/transmission/ff.htm) it looks like the seal is facing the direction I have it installed (see part number 17 in the second picture, note how the flange faces towards the inside of the transaxle). Does anyone here know the correct orientation of the seal? Also, if anyone has any tips on pressing the seals in, that would be greatly appreciated.

Additionally, I'm having a bit of trouble getting the spacers off of the splined part of the output shaft (see third picture). Any tips for pulling it off?

Thanks in advance!

Online BDA

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday,December 13, 2023, 10:16:33 AM »
 :Welcome: pkragen!!!

I don't have any experience with the 336 but if your seals are lip seals (I can't tell from your picture), then the "open" side of the seal with the spring "retainer" goes inward. The finned nut provides the adjustment and will press against the bearing so the seal should not get in the way. The seal doesn't have to be pressed in. You can tap it in with a piece of wood or a large punch or even a hammer face. Just keep in mind that you are tapping it into an aluminum piece so "tap" is the operative word.

And then there's that spacer... I have no idea what that is for or how to take it out. Does the seal run on that spacer? If so, I would not fool with it. If you can't easily get it off, I would seriously think about leaving it alone. There is nothing under or behind it that you would have to get to. If you're thinking about getting into your diff, I would suggest you leave it alone unless you have a reason to.

I suspect you're getting ready to set the bearing preload in which case you should do that with an empty box (just the diff with bearings, seals, finned nuts in a case that has been put together and torqued).

I recently rebuilt my NG3 which being a lot newer may be different from yours but I hope some of that is at least transferrable to your situation.

Offline bjthomp

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday,December 13, 2023, 11:06:05 AM »
That's not quite correct about the spacer just sort of sitting there. There is an O-ring inside the spacer that prevents gear oil from leaking out the splines. The O-ring is what's making it difficult to remove. If you can get something behind the spacer Like a thin-blade screwdriver), you can lever it off a little bit at a time. It will come off, but not easily. Installing it with a new O-ring (highly recommended) can be a hassle. I'll let others explain their methods.

Offline Bryan Boyle

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday,December 13, 2023, 11:06:50 AM »
:Welcome: pkragen!!!

I don't have any experience with the 336 but if your seals are lip seals (I can't tell from your picture), then the "open" side of the seal with the spring "retainer" goes inward. The finned nut provides the adjustment and will press against the bearing so the seal should not get in the way. The seal doesn't have to be pressed in. You can tap it in with a piece of wood or a large punch or even a hammer face. Just keep in mind that you are tapping it into an aluminum piece so "tap" is the operative word.

Rule of thumb: lip seals open INTO the area where lubrication is.  In this case, open to the interior of the box.  I usually use the old seal as the form to sit the new seal, in the proper orientation, on, and then PRESS the two together.  A little grease around the outside helps push it into position until it's fully seated. 

Quote

And then there's that spacer... I have no idea what that is for or how to take it out. Does the seal run on that spacer? If so, I would not fool with it. If you can't easily get it off, I would seriously think about leaving it alone. There is nothing under or behind it that you would have to get to. If you're thinking about getting into your diff, I would suggest you leave it alone unless you have a reason to.


Underneath, at the inside end of that spacer, is an o-ring (or quad ring, if you can find the right size) to seal the spacer.  If it's not disturbed, leave it.  That's the surface the lip seal sits on (you can see the polished ring where it lands on the spacer).  Between that spacer and the inside axle u-joint is where the shims fit to properly set the axles.

Quote

I suspect you're getting ready to set the bearing preload in which case you should do that with an empty box (just the diff with bearings, seals, finned nuts in a case that has been put together and torqued).

I recently rebuilt my NG3 which being a lot newer may be different from yours but I hope some of that is at least transferrable to your situation.

exactly.  Follow the manual. 
Bryan Boyle
Fall River MA
Morrisville PA
Commercial Pilot/CFII/FAA Safety Team
Amateur Extra Class Operator & FCC Volunteer Examiner
Currently working on 3291R, ex 444R, 693R, 65/2163, 004R, 65/2678
http://www.lotuseuropa.us for mirror of lotus-europa.com manual site.

Online BDA

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday,December 13, 2023, 11:12:39 AM »
Quote
Underneath, at the inside end of that spacer, is an o-ring (or quad ring, if you can find the right size) to seal the spacer.  If it's not disturbed, leave it.  That's the surface the lip seal sits on (you can see the polished ring where it lands on the spacer).  Between that spacer and the inside axle u-joint is where the shims fit to properly set the axles.

Quote
There is an O-ring inside the spacer that prevents gear oil from leaking out the splines. The O-ring is what's making it difficult to remove. If you can get something behind the spacer Like a thin-blade screwdriver), you can lever it off a little bit at a time. It will come off, but not easily. Installing it with a new O-ring (highly recommended) can be a hassle. I'll let others explain their methods.

Thanks guys for correcting my ignorance!

Offline jbcollier

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday,December 13, 2023, 11:15:32 AM »
Seal is installed wrong way round as has already been pointed out.  Remove the seal run/spacer -- it just pops off with two screwdrivers -- and do your adjustments without the spacer in place.  After your diff is set up properly, fit new o-rings (lightly greased) to the output shafts and refit the spacers.  They have to "pop" back on so use a short length of tubing and a hammer to get them properly home.

Offline Triton

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday,December 13, 2023, 12:07:02 PM »
As other members have said about the o-ring behind the seal run spacer. When i rebuilt my shafts i put a bit of sealer around the new o-rings. It looks like there is a wear line on your spacer where the oil seal has been running. I spun mine in the lathe and polished them with wet and dry. It will help to try and get the seal to run on a different part of the spacer. It is a bit awkward because the spacer is narrow. Stuart.

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday,December 13, 2023, 04:14:50 PM »
  First of all ,  :Welcome:

   I had to go back to August 2020 to find these pictures. I purchased the seal and new finned assembly from Renault 16shop . For a 336 S2.
Hope they help your assembly.
Dakazman

Offline pkragen

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday,December 13, 2023, 09:37:37 PM »
Thanks everyone for the input. I managed to remove the old seals without damaging the seals or the aluminum nuts, then pressed them back together using one of the old seals as a spacer, as Bryan suggested. This worked great.

I decided to pull the spacer and check the O-rings. Part of my motivation for pulling the transaxle was the fact that it was leaking like a sieve. It would drain itself down to the output shaft seals in a few hours. Upon pulling the finned nuts and looking at the seals, there wasn't anything about the seals that seemed to be an obvious cause of the leak, so I figured this was reason enough to check the O-rings under the spacers. One of them seemed to be seated a little bit outside of the slot and had some wear from riding on the splines, so I decided to remove both.

When I removed the nuts a couple months ago I took a video checking how many turns each one took to remove, that way I could avoid changing the bearing preload and crown wheel backlash as long as I left the case together. After pulling the spacers and installing the seals the right direction I found that there is no room to adjust the crown wheel position left to right in the case. Instead, the nuts both go back in exactly the same number of turns that it took to remove them (about 8 and 1/2 turns each), and then it feels like they're fastened against a completely rigid surface. Loosening one doesn't give any more room for the other one to go further in.

I did measure the number of turns to get the right bearing preload before doing the final case assembly (although at the moment I'm unable to find my note where I wrote it down). I reused the original bearing, so setting this was pretty trivial. Backlash feels pretty low with everything assembled, but I'll borrow a dial indicator from work to check if it matches the 0.005-0.010" spec in the manual. Any ideas for why there's no room to adjust the backlash?

Offline jbcollier

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #9 on: Thursday,December 14, 2023, 07:17:59 AM »
Tough to say over the wire but I would say the diff bearings are probably just "frozen/stiff" in their bores.

Offline pkragen

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #10 on: Monday,March 04, 2024, 09:35:37 PM »
Closing the loop on this, I managed to get a dial indicator on the crown wheel and the backlash was just about 0.007", right where it should have been. I called it good, got it back in the car, and have been doing laps around the block  :pirate: . After hunting down some cooling issues (thermostat in backwards), shifting issues (loose shifter fork lever), and engine issues (fuel filter restricting flow through the carb inlet), I finally took it out for a few miles drive around town. I noticed a good bit of gearbox noise (whirring, kinda similar to what you'd hear in reverse in other old cars) when at low speed, really only noticeable in 2nd and 3rd gear when the engine revs are fairly low. How concerned should I be? I know that loud whining typically means gears have too much clearance and the gears will get damaged quickly, but I'm not sure whether this applies to moderate noise at low speed as well. I was pretty thorough about checking all the shaft alignment tolerances when I was putting the transaxle together. Also worth noting that all the shaft tolerances were in spec, which seems reasonable given the car was last registered in 1978.

Also, I've been driving without the rear hatch on (it was off when I bought the car and I've been working on it so much that I haven't bothered to reinstall the hinges) so I'm probably getting more noise than normal.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: 1969 S2 Transaxle Rebuild Questions
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday,March 05, 2024, 03:58:39 AM »
Again, almost impossible to say for sure remotely.  Take it to a shop and see what they think.