Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: TurboFource on Tuesday,January 30, 2024, 06:32:43 PM
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Can anyone tell me which NG3 this is?
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The tag will have the type of tranny (NG1, NG2, NG3, or NG5). Then there will be a “suffix” that will be three digits which tells you what ratios it has, and then there will be a serial number. Here’s a manual that tells you more: http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/ng.pdf
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I don’t see a 065 (?) in that list :confused:
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There's another manual with a larger list of suffixes (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/MRBVNG.pdf) but I don't see 065 anywhere either. Maybe I missed it? There is a 065 and 067! Does it say NG3 on it?
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065 is in last section, for USA & Canada ratios . Page 13 of the NG manual
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Thanks Blitzen! What is vehicle 136A ? A Fuego of some sort I assume?
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I couldn’t find a reference to 136A in either of the manuals but I found it here (https://vehicleidentificationnumber.com/vin-decoder/renault-car.html). It’s a 1600cc Turbo Fuego.
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So, this is worth pursuing?
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Absolutely! :beerchug:
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Still working out the details on this in case the 352 transaxle doesn't like having a turbo hurrying it along .... ???
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Aren’t the number of planet wheels an indication of how much torque the box will take? The 336 and 352 have two I believe and the 365 and NG3 have four. Interestingly, in their SCCA racer, Jensen Motors used a 336 with straight-cut non-synchro gears. Are you expecting to generate much more torque than a race engine?
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Boost usually bumps up the torque!
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I thought the 365 also only has 2 planet gears. I have a 365, so I want to be clear about this for future reference.
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Agreed, but any idea how much?
Wild ass guessing, they got in the neighborhood of 200bhp at 8000rpm. Obviously hp and torque peaks happen at different rpms but I think we can expect that the torque does not fall off a cliff so the torque at 8000rpm is in the neighborhood of 130 ft-lbs.
T=hp/rpm rpm is in radians/sec (6.28 * 8000/60)
hp is 550 ft-lbs/sec (200 * 550)
Since Jensen didn’t mention any maintenance on the tranny, we might conclude it was not a weak point and their 336 could handle more torque. Arbitrarily, maybe 150 ft-lbs might be a reasonable upper limit…
If all that is reasonable, maybe we could expect an NG3 to handle over 200 ft-lbs.
Just as a comparison, my BDA maxes out at 125 ft-lbs and generates 177bhp @ 7500rpm.
edit: obviously all math and assumptions checks are welcome!
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Kendo, check Fig. 69 on page 36 of the manual (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/tcwork/f/tcf.pdf).
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I remember reading an early history of the development of the Esprit. They expected the new engine to deliver more than 150 HP and thought the existing 365? transmission wouldn't take it.
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Interesting... I certainly don't know as much as the Lotus engineers but 150 hp max for a 365 seems like a pretty low number.
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The Esprit is a heavier car. Much less likely to relieve stress by spinning its wheels.
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I keep going back to Jensen Motors’ racing Europa which used a 336. Light car to be sure but also used slicks so there wouldn’t be any slipping tires to relieve stress on the tranny and it’s guaranteed that their TC motor generated substantially more than 150bhp with similar torque increases (see my educated WAG on a previous post).
I’m thinking if the 365 was rejected for the Esprit, maybe it was more for longer term durability.
Another thought: could the final choice (Citroen?) have had better gear ratios?
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They didn’t run a 365 5 speed as the rules limited them to a 4 speed …. maybe their Twin Cam with the 336 and they ran it
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Does the NG3 have the same input shaft splines as the 352 etc?
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Yes, the splines are the same so you can use a standard TC clutch, but just to remind you, the NG3 has an input shaft that does not ride in the pilot bushing (clutch spigot bearing) in the flywheel. That's why you need the Fuego pilot bearing (which includes a seal - see attached photo).
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BDA,
This goes in the crank?
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BDA,
This goes in the crank?
No in the bellhousing. Good info at https://www.prevanders.net/europa/ng3.html (https://www.prevanders.net/europa/ng3.html)
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I'm glad you posted that because I was going to forget it.
I'd also point out this page which explains a lot of what needs to be done for using an NG3 (https://www.greytower.com/jon/lotus/europa/gearbox/gearbox.html). This page implements Richard's (at Europa Engineering) method of using an NG3 with a Europa. Part of that is Richard's way of doing the shift linkage. It requires some changes in the end cover which are described on that page. The linkage is very similar to the S2 linkage with cross tree/bell crank type arrangement near the front of the 'Y' of the frame and so if the body is on your frame, it might be difficult to attach the pivot for the cross tree to the frame. That being the case, a cable shifter might be the way to go. The link that Blitzen posted hopefully gives enough information on how to implement that on your car. There are other designs for cable shifters: (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/files/Shifter.PDF) and (https://groups.io/g/LotusEuropa/files/Cable%20Shifter) and (https://groups.io/g/LotusEuropa/files/NG3%20Cable%20Shift) and probably others (some of those may be dupes)
There are some modifications described in the greytower link I posted above that might be advisable but not required. For example, he describes beefing up the hole where the NG3 pilot bearing goes. I didn't do that because Richard didn't mention it to me. I don't know if Richard decided it wasn't absolutely necessary or he forgot but I haven't had any trouble in that area. I think there might be some other mods mentioned in the greytower link. I don't think I did any of them. Richard sent me a kit including tranny, mounts, linkage materials, pilot bearing, and hardware. I just assembled it.
Well, "just" isn't really accurate. My frame was for a 365 or 352. When we test fit the tranny, the rear hoop interfered. It didn't look like we could get it to fit so Richard sent me a 336 rear hoop which did the trick. All that being said, I have seen an NG3 installed in a 352/365 frame (or at least pictures of it). It was accomplished by dimpling the portion of the rear hoop that fouled the tranny so it can be done and it is probably easier than replacing the rear hoop.
The Renault pilot bearing is apparently rare. I notice that they are out of stock at Lotus Supplies and Kelvedon. There are two options: find a rare one or make your own. I got a bearing for my NG3 from a fellow in Canada who sourced one. He seems to be able to find unobtainable Renault parts so I would try him. His email is olivier at ateliermahoa dot com. He also has a Facebook page for his business (https://www.facebook.com/ateliermahoa/). I would try Olivier first. However making one doesn't look like it would be that difficult. I made some measurements that should be enough to make your own and you can make it better by making it rebuildable (replace the seal and bearing).A company makes a similar rebuildable pilot bearing for the Mitsubishi 3000 (https://www.3sx.com/3sx-high-performance-billet-input-shaft-bearing-for-5-6-speeds). The concept is pretty simple and should be easy enough to replicate for the smaller NG3 bearing.
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Something not mentioned by anyone but that I found necessary was to clearance the back of the bellhousing for the crown. There was slight contact so I had to grind out a small but. Worth checking before you assemble to bellhousing to the NG3.
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I am beginning to think this is a lot of trouble for a transaxle with poor parts availability.
Maybe a Porsche Boxster 5 speed would be better, engine adapters are available and parts …..
and it has a 3.50 first gear instead of a 4.09 !
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I used a 2004 G86/01 Porsche Boxster 5 speed complete with hydraulic slave, shifter box and cables. 3:56 final drive. The ratios are 3:50/2:11/1.43/1.09/.838,
pretty close to the stock TCS 4 speed. With the torque of the V-8, a 3:50 first is a waste, but with a peaky motor might be helpful? The stock Lotus 4 spoeed was a 3:61 first. Kennedy Enginnering did the adapter and supplied flywheel and clutch. A .75" master cylinder works fine with the stock Porsche slave. Just got the thing bleed and everthing seems to work, pedal not too hard. To use the shifter box I had to move the water lines to the bottom of the center of the main back bone, but the cables were the correct length for my V-8 project. Hope this helps. Have pictures if you want.
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Thanks Kram, I just read your whole build thread again last night as I remembered you were running the Boxster 5 speed. If you have any pics you haven’t posted yet they are of course, appreciated!
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Those Boxster boxes are big, though, aren't they?
How do the drive shafts line up after a bell housing adaptor is also bolted on?
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Kram said that’s why he used one to keep the axle flanges in the same spot
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Total length of transaxle is 24.5"
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Kram what did you paint it with?
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SEM 39173 Dark Smoke . Closest match I can find in a spray can to natural patina magnesium.
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Decided to get the NG3….check is in the mail….may not end up in the Europa but possibly another future project with a Zetec attached to it ….
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Supposed to be here Tuesday :)
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It showed up 8)
A NG3 weighs 85 lbs if anyone is curious …
It was $375 including shipping ….
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Did you say you paid $375 (including the cost to ship it to you) for your NG3?! Where did you get it? Do they have any more?
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It showed up 8)
A NG3 weighs 85 lbs if anyone is curious …
It was $375 including shipping ….
What number is this NG3?
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BDA… yes total was $375 (decent price :confused:) and he has no more maybe a couple of early 4 speeds I think
Hachille it is from a Fuego turbo
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Amazing price!!! Congratulations on a super deal!
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BDA… yes total was $375 and he has no more maybe a couple of early 4 speeds I think
Hachille it is from a Fuego turbo
Very good model. Probably NG3043. The one I also have on my Europa.
I made this comparison a long time ago
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Your comparison chart has a 365-34 which has a 0.93 5th. Lotus 365 5ths were 0.86, the same as the NG3
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The same with the 365 Lotus