Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: BDA on Wednesday,November 07, 2018, 10:29:01 AM
-
I'm preparing for the possibility that I will want to rebuild my rack. I've been in my rack before and I think the part I'll might need is the rack itself - i.e. the shaft with the teeth cut into it.
Can you help me check my knowledge about this? I know that it is a Triumph Spitfire rack assembly and the only real modification to the "guts" of it is a spacer for on the passenger side. Since my car was built in '73, I would assume that Lotus used the racks from the '73 or '74 Spitfire but I assume that that rack hadn't changed much for several years. Did they remain the same in later production years?. I understand there are "new" rack assemblies available now but that they are not different and therefore not appropriate.
Can somebody correct any misconceptions and tell me which years of Spitfires would be appropriate for a TCS? What about other models? Does anybody have a good source for used Spitfire racks other than car-part.com and ebay.com - I'm looking for as many options as possible.
-
Here is some information. Although it talks about an Elan steering rack the Europa specs are listed at the bottom of the article.
(http://www.lotuseuropa.org/gallery/albums/album13/Steering_Rack_Specs.jpg)
-
There are many variations on the "Triumph" steering rack:
https://macleansbridge.com/index.php/triumph-info/technical-information/22-steering-racks
-
Replace the bushing. Dave Bean sells them.
-
I have 7 of the Herald rack bits sitting in my garage.
If you or any of your friends are in London, I can give them one FOC, but I don't think they will fit, even with the spacers added to the ends.
Beware there are 6 and 7 cog pinions.
-
Thanks for the articles, JD & Joe. They were very helpful.
Certified, the problem is I had trouble adjusting the turning resistance on the pinion (2lbs at 8"). I could only get it too loose or too tight. My car had been hit in the driver's side front corner which could have bent my rack a little. When I took the rack shaft out, it was bent a little and I spent a lot of time trying to get it straighter. When I finally decided it was as straight as I was going to get it, there ended up being two places somewhere in the middle of the travel where the pinion seemed to be too tight. I'll know more after I put the car on the road but I think it might affect steering effort when driving. If so, this is most likely because of my efforts to straighten the rack and not from any accident damage. :headbanger: There are less than 20K totals miles on it so my thought is a good rack shaft should allow me to fix my problem if I have one.
Alex, the article JB posted has a table that gives specific information about Triumph steering racks. The for Spitfires and Heralds is paraphrased here (the table has more detail):
Model | Rack shaft part # | Rack length (mm) | Pinion teeth
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GT6 | 208058 | 660 | 7
Spitfire 1-3 | 208058 | 660 | 7
Herald 1200 | 208058 | 660 | 7
Herald 948 | 208058 | 660 | 6
Before I wrote this, I had only looked at the pinion teeth after reading your post so I became aware that there were two different Herald pinions but I didn't realize that they both were apparently used on the same rack shaft! Hmmm....
I am assuming from the table that all the Spitfires had the same rack because there is only one entry for them and because there is only one for the GT6 and it's production ran from '66 - '73 but the "1-3" designation baffles me.
-
BDA, what did you try and straighten? The tube or the rod or both?
-
Just the rod.
-
I understand that the issue with recent Triumph racks is that they can't be disassembled, so you can't get the spacer in, or change the track rods if you have an Elan.
I think some people in UK have modified Spridget racks. Someone like Spyder might be able to help.
Apparent my used, good racks are like hen's teeth nowadays.
-
There's lots of them on fleabay. Unfortunately, most seem to have been "harvested" years ago so their mileage is unknown. There are some on car-part.com that probably have better documentation. Richard will swap your rack for a rebuilt one. There are options out there.
Your used good racks... are you a potential source?
-
Alex, the article JB posted has a table that gives specific information about Triumph steering racks. The for Spitfires and Heralds is paraphrased here (the table has more detail):
Model | Rack shaft part # | Rack length (mm) | Pinion teeth
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GT6 | 208058 | 660 | 7
Spitfire 1-3 | 208058 | 660 | 7
Herald 1200 | 208058 | 660 | 7
Herald 948 | 208058 | 660 | 6
Before I wrote this, I had only looked at the pinion teeth after reading your post so I became aware that there were two different Herald pinions but I didn't realize that they both were apparently used on the same rack shaft! Hmmm....
I am assuming from the table that all the Spitfires had the same rack because there is only one entry for them and because there is only one for the GT6 and it's production ran from '66 - '73 but the "1-3" designation baffles me.
Thanks for that.
To change my LHD Europa racks to RHD, I have bought Triumph Herald racks for 100 or less on eBay. I then take the rack and pinion out of the Lotus rack, and put all the moving bits in the RHD casing. The casings look identical except obviously mirror images.
I wondered why there was a 6 cog pinion, and now I know why.
So I now have several LHD cases and 7 Herald racks sitting in my garage doing nothing.
-
I thought I'd update this old thread. I purchased a '78 Spitfire rack on eBay. I was pretty lucky as the seller said it had only 40,000 miles on it and I got it for about $40 delivered. It really was in good shape. I assumed that the shaft and pinion, etc. on the late Spitfires was the same as on the Europa but I hadn't been able to find anything that specified that. My previous post where I copied a table from a link JB posted listed the Spitfire Mk I - III but did not mention the Mk IV or the 1500.
I took both racks apart and found that except for the Europa spacer and tie rods, everything is interchangeable. I suspect that this will be true for even more recent Spitfire model years (I think production was ended after the '80 model year.
I haven't finished setting it up yet but I don't think I'll have any problems since other than cleaning it, re-lubing, and adding the Europa bits, it will be just as I got it. I'm even keeping the tube.
One thing that I found interesting is that the tie rods were very loose. The Europa workshop manual specifies 7 lbs resistance at the end of the tie rods. Not believing that on my first time fooling with my rack, I adjusted them very loose and found it made the car unstable - it would try to jump into the next lane on the highway! Maybe that's why this rack was available!?
I think it's been stated before that the aftermarket racks that are available are not compatible.
-
Early Triumph Herald racks have 1 less tooth in the pinions.
The Vitesse (6 cylinder), Herald (4 cylinder), Spitfire (4 cylinder) and GT6 (6 cylinder) were all very similar.
-
I meant to list the differences between the Spitfire and Europa racks. Here they are and I would assume the other similar racks would have the same differences:
The Europa tube has an extension on the passenger side.
The Europa has a spacer (didn't measure it) that goes around the rack rod on the passenger side.
The Europa sleeve nut (at the end of the rack rod) is much longer for both the driver and passenger sides.
The Europa tie rods are longer that the Spitfire's.
All those fit simply on a Spitfire rack and all the other parts of the Spitfire rack are interchangeable for a Europa application.
-
BDA, moss motors has a selection of spitfire / triumph parts.
Dakazman
-
I know, D'man. The thing I really NEEDED was the rack rod itself which is not available by itself. I could have gotten one of their rebuilt racks for almost $200 and then added the Europa bits to make it work for my Europa but I also could have gotten a rebuilt one from Richard for about $150 (exchange) plus shipping but that seemed like a lot when all I really needed was that one part and as I said, the one I bought was very nice and very economical.
After starting this discussion many moons ago, it was assumed that any Spitfire (and GT6, but those were phased out long before Spitfires so their racks were probably less available and with more miles. Those on the other side of the pond have more options.) rack but it wasn't known for sure. At least that's what I took away from the thread. I just wanted everybody to know that if they needed to repair their rack, they could get one from the latest model Spitfire they could find which would hopefully have fewer miles and that the swapping of parts was very straightforward. Others who read the thread might have come to that conclusion but I wasn't absolutely sure. Now I am! :)
There is an uprated/aftermarket rack ("quick rack") for Spitfires but I understand they are not at all appropriate for our use.
Update: I tried to install the rack on the car and found an incomparability in the rack tube. On the casting that houses the pinion, there is an ear that gets in the way of the master cylinder. When I looked at the original rack tube, sure enough, it was cut off. Depending on the master cylinder you use, it may not be a problem but I am using the original one.
-
Hi BDA,
I’ve got Brian Buckland’s book on maintaining and restoring the Elan. He had interviewed Ron Hickman several times to get some background on the Elan and the source of its parts. He says that the steering rack was case hardened in the area of the pinion by lotus. I’ll have check it again later as I’m getting the kids ready for school!
Also, if you’re looking for the rod end, Kelvedon Lotus are selling them. https://kelvedonlotus.co.uk/product/tie-rod/
I hope it helps.
Regards
-
Thanks Bodzer, it's all back together. My tie rods were still good and I think they are available on my side of the pond.
As for case hardening on the rack, there is definitely signs of heat on the Europa rack. I supposed it could have come from machining or heat treatment - or both. I would have noticed if the Spitfire rack didn't have the same coloration. I would be very surprised if the racks were not hardened before they ended up at Lotus since gears are normally hardened. I would expect that if there was anything different about the Lotus racks, it might be because they specified a different heat treatment than British Leyland specified. Obviously, this is all supposition. It would be interesting to learn what Hickman had to say.
I didn't look really closely at the Spitfire rack teeth, as with a magnifying glass, but there was no discernible wear on them. I looked at the pinion much closer and it did show a little wear which isn't surprising really. I'm collecting all the good parts of those racks for spares. Who knows, they may come in handy, but then I'll probably end up as some eccentric octogenarian with a garage full of antique Europa parts.
-
Who knows, they may come in handy, but then I'll probably end up as some eccentric octogenarian with a garage full of antique Europa parts.
I was thinking just that last weekend when I was tidying up my collection of bits.
I have nearly finished rebuilding chassis #7, so anything not used that I have is surplus.
Having swapped 7 racks LHD to RHD, I have heaps of Triumph Herald bits lying around, as I used the RHD casings only when swapping over.
-
By the time you're an octogenarian, you'll be a hero to a small collection of owners of super antique Europas and other cars that share those parts!
-
This is another source for vintage British car parts:
http://www.britishmasters.net/
I've dealt with them before and I've had not issues. I live only about 45 minutes from them but parts are mail order only, I can't pick them up even though I live about 40 minutes from the business.
-
Nice source, Joji! I assume all communication is via phone or email since they didn't have any parts or price information on their website.
-
Phone is probably the best way; they have a 800 number and had no problems with some one answering.
-
I realise I'm replying to an old thread, hopefully someone out there will pick this up.
I'm converting a '73 TC/Special to RHD, can anyone out there confirm that I need to swap out the pinion as well as the rack housing? It looks like it because the rack has straight cut teeth and the pinion is angled so must have angled teeth. I'm asking because I don't want to change the ratio with a 'quicker' 7-tooth pinion.
Thanks
-
I was about to suggest that it didn't matter. I thought I had a spare pinion to confirm my idea but I didn't. I do have a spare rack and housing and because the pinion is at a slight angle to the rack, it probably does make a difference which end of the rack you put the pinion - the angle of the pinion to the rack would be reversed. That is probably what you were thinking, wasn't it?
My suggestion is to get a good used RHD Spitfire steering rack (I found one on ebay that was supposed to be only 40,000 miles old). Replace the "cup nuts" that hold in the tie-rods and the tie-rods themselves from your Europa steering rack while adding the spacer to the passenger side as it was on the Europa rack. That will obviously require you to re-shim the tie-rods in the cup nuts and and the pinion so save all your shims and get new lock tabs for the cup nuts.
I think those are all the differences but if I missed something, it should be pretty obvious.
-
This is a heads-up on something that isn't generally known about the Spitfire rack. It has a central section, the bit of the rack that comes into action in straight ahead driving where the teeth have been cut fractionally shallower, that is more metal is left on the rack leading to a high point in the teeth. The shims to minimise pinion backlash are adjusted [in the Spitfire] at this point. That's all fine so far because when the car is steering a corner the rack is under load, but has a fraction more backlash where the teeth have been cut deeper.
Lotus took a standard rack and moved the effective centre point, the straight ahead position off-centre. This means that if the rack is adjusted for minimum backlash at the straight ahead position it will jam when it reaches the high point in the rack. This only applies to types 54, 65 and standard TC. The TCS had a different arrangement where the rack is properly centred.
-
The addendum to my comment, which I seem to have accidentally posted before it was finished, is that you can check this by measuring over a pin. Take a needle roller of a diameter that fits into the rack tooth gaps whilst contacting both flanks. Into each tooth gap place the roller in turn measuring the distance across the roller to the other side of the rack rod. You will discover that there is a hump where the Spitfire is at straight ahead.. It's only a few thou, but it makes a difference to precision in the straight ahead position when the rack is used in all but the TCS Europa.
-
Richard H, are you sure about the difference between TC and TCS?
I ask because to my knowledge there are only 2 part numbers for TC(S) racks, LHD and RHD. There are differences is switch gear and columns etc., but I think at the chassis mounting they are the same.
The S1 and S2 racks are a different part number though.
-
Very interesting, Richard!!
I think years ago, Richard told me (I'm sorry I don't remember all the specifics) that when you rebuild the rack (presumably using used Spitfire parts) that the the center (straight ahead) would be a bit looser than either side. When I rebuilt my rack - actually I added the Lotus rack parts to a "lightly" used Spitfire rack because it was nicer than mine - I noticed that even though my Spitfire rack was only 40,000 miles old, it exhibited that same pattern. I assumed that it was because of wear but I didn't expect it because the Spitfire rack wasn't much over 20,000 miles older than mine and that didn't seem like enough mileage to cause that much wear (?). When it came to shimming the cap nut, I sort of split the difference between being too tight and too loose, I basically shimmed it so that if I added one more thin shim (0.004), I could feel the teeth on the rack when turning the pinion.
As far as any differences between the Spitfire rack and my TCS rack, I didn't see any. To my eye, they both used the same rack, pinion, rack tube, etc. (but the Spitfire rack had extended sleeve nuts, longer tie rods, and included a tube to go over the rack to reduce the total turning action). So I'm surprised that the TCS racks would be any different from other Europa or Spitfire racks. I don't see the reason for making a small change to a small number of racks when the older Europa racks and Spitfire racks (without Lotus mods) work fine. Can you tell us some more about how you found this out?
-
Richard H, are you sure about the difference between TC and TCS?
I ask because to my knowledge there are only 2 part numbers for TC(S) racks, LHD and RHD. There are differences is switch gear and columns etc., but I think at the chassis mounting they are the same.
The S1 and S2 racks are a different part number though.
Actually Roger, I can't now find the source from which I got the idea that the TC and TCS were different. My recollection is that there is a tiny amount of bump steer coming from the steering control arm length being slightly too long in the S2 installation. The TCS at the very least has extension pieces at the end of the rack such that the track control arms can be shorter eliminating that source of bump steer.
Having failed to find definitive information I resorted to looking at pictures which indicate the TC and TCS are very likely the same because neither have the external steering control arm extender pieces fitted.
Sorry for the confusion, as an S2 owner :-[!
-
Can you tell us some more about how you found this out?
I was chasing down any sources of lost motion in the steering system and one such might have been the adjustment of the pinion backlash with the rack. Having carefully removed all lost motion bt changing the backup slider shims I ended up with steering that felt smooth and 'right' so I took the car out for a test drive. Only got as far as the first sharp left hand turn and the steering went very stiff. I actually went to the trouble of chasing down where on the rack it was binding and set about trying to correct what I thought was a badly machined rack.
At some point in a very tedious process I asked of the lotus-europa.com list if anyone else had found the same. Somebody then informed me of this standard practice of leaving more metal in the straight ahead position and the penny dropped. It has since been my plan to try and replicate the TCS rack standard for best operation.
The car had done about 90k miles at this point and the rack was visually perfect, not a sign of wear.
-
I've just stripped a 2nd. hand 'slow' Triumph rack and it has a 6-tooth pinion as expected. When stripping my original rack I find it has a 7-tooth pinion, not what I expected. A colleague has advised against fitting a quicker rack in the Europa and I'm now confused. I cannot transfer the original 7-tooth pinion because of the angle. Attached photo shows the LHD 7-tooth pinion on the left and the Triumph RHD 6-tooth pinion on the right.
Am I missing something?
Thanks in anticipation,
Chris
-
Did your colleague explain why you should not use the 6-tooth pinion?
-
Can you tell us some more about how you found this out?
I was chasing down any sources of lost motion in the steering system and one such might have been the adjustment of the pinion backlash with the rack. Having carefully removed all lost motion bt changing the backup slider shims I ended up with steering that felt smooth and 'right' so I took the car out for a test drive. Only got as far as the first sharp left hand turn and the steering went very stiff. I actually went to the trouble of chasing down where on the rack it was binding and set about trying to correct what I thought was a badly machined rack.
At some point in a very tedious process I asked of the lotus-europa.com list if anyone else had found the same. Somebody then informed me of this standard practice of leaving more metal in the straight ahead position and the penny dropped. It has since been my plan to try and replicate the TCS rack standard for best operation.
The car had done about 90k miles at this point and the rack was visually perfect, not a sign of wear.
It sounds like you found what I experienced when I rebuilt my rack. After 90,000 miles, I'm not surprised since my Spitfire rack was supposed to only be 40,000 miles old. That is an indication of the amount of wear induced from driving straight ahead - which makes sense when you think about it you spend much more time driving straight and driving straight requires frequent minute corrections.
If you haven't rebuilt the rack to your satisfaction yet, my advice is to get your pinion as tight as you can WITHOUT feeling the individual teeth throughout the travel of the rack. It will be little looser than the spec calls for at the straight ahead position, but you don't have a choice.
-
Did your colleague explain why you should not use the 6-tooth pinion?
He fitted a refurbished 'quick' rack (7-teeth) with the Europa lock stop and steering rods/nuts but reckons it's bit too sensitive. That said, he refurbished an ex-racer that from parts so hadn't driven one before?
-
I'm just annoyed that I assumed my original rack was 6-tooth as both Triumph units are available on eBay. I should have stripped mine first :huh:
-
This is a heads-up on something that isn't generally known about the Spitfire rack. It has a central section, the bit of the rack that comes into action in straight ahead driving where the teeth have been cut fractionally shallower, that is more metal is left on the rack leading to a high point in the teeth. The shims to minimise pinion backlash are adjusted [in the Spitfire] at this point. That's all fine so far because when the car is steering a corner the rack is under load, but has a fraction more backlash where the teeth have been cut deeper.
Lotus took a standard rack and moved the effective centre point, the straight ahead position off-centre. This means that if the rack is adjusted for minimum backlash at the straight ahead position it will jam when it reaches the high point in the rack. This only applies to types 54, 65 and standard TC. The TCS had a different arrangement where the rack is properly centred.
Hi. Also as a newbie, I have been doing some research on a possible replacement for the Herald/Spitfire rack fitted to my 1969 Lotus Seven Series 3. Ages ago I photocopied some pages from a book I found at my local library regarding the Triumph Spitfire. I cannot recall the author or book title to give credit unfortunately, but a full description of the mechanical properties of the complete rack and ball joint assemblies was provided. The book confirmed that the middle teeth (I would have to count them to confirm) were machined 5 thousandths of an inch higher than the rest to provide 'stiction' (hope this is the correct term?) in the straight-ahead position.
Also as noted on the Mcleans Bridge site, the geared rack 'bars' and tie rods were manufactured in various lengths. I have 2 Spitfire racks where the rack bar is 26 inches long, but recently obtained a spare where it is 25.5 inches long (TR4?). The Mcleans Bridge site provides excellent information on the various racks produced by Alford and Alder/Triumph. The measurements are given in metric values, but the U.K. did not begin going partly metric until 1965. Before and probably quite a time after that date, the U.K. was still using Imperial measure, and I am guessing that most of the Stanpart items were still Imperial values until well into the 70s?. I am grateful to the administrator for reproducing the article from the Club Lotus magazine by Brian Buckland, as it provides clarity on the modifications performed/required by Lotus. For the Seven, 2 - 1" long rack stops were provided of 1 inch outside diameter for a sliding fit on the rack bar., and the tie rod thread was shortened along with the outer ball joint (3/8" and 1/4" respectively). One of my racks came with tie rods of exactly 6 inches long, and these are not cut from a longer version. They were produced to this length and have the lathe centres at each end. Unfortunately one of them was probably 'curbed', and is not safe for re-use (on an Elan for instance). I have also investigated the new German manufactured racks produced for Triumph vehicles through the German company 'Bastuck'. I was sent a couple of emails by a sales rep. that shows the tie rods as attached to the geared rack bar. These racks do not use a locking nut to secure the tie rod ball joint to the rack bar. Unfortunately, the sales rep could not advise if the tie rods could be unbolted to allow the fitting of necessary rack stops as fitted by Lotus. It seems no one has had to disassemble a German rack as they are still fairly new. Various Triumph sites proved negative in this respect. Forum members on these sites confirmed that Argentine manufactured racks are sealed for life and cannot be safely disassembled. Although cheaper than the German units, there were some negative comments on these South American racks regarding quality control. I have a page from an old Dave Bean parts catalogue that may have been copied from Lotus if anyone is interested? It shows the various rack parts for the Elan and Plus 2 and shows the rack extension for the Europa. I contacted a sales person at DBE, and was advised that they had sourced a German manufactured rack from British Parts North America to see if it would be suitable for a Lotus. DBE advised that they thought that it 'would not be suitable', although they didn't explain why or how much they had attempted to disassemble the rack assembly. If of any value, and with the administrator's permission, I can post the DBE Lotus rack page, and also the photos of the German rack with the bellows slid aside. Cheers, EW
-
:Welcome: EdWills!!
That%u2019s a lot of good information about racks! I rebuilt my rack - actually, more like added the Europa bits to a Spitfire rack. I believe it was Richard at Banks wo told me that the best that could be done is for straight-ahead to be a little looser than either side and to consider that when adjusting the pinion, but I didn%u2019t know about I was not aware of the taller teeth on the rack. I will say that although my rack was supposed to be only 40,000 miles old, it did exhibit the looseness characteristics Richard mentioned to me. On the other hand, 40,000 miles on a Spitfire is surely more severe than 40,000 miles on a modern car!
In studying racks back when I was rebuilding mine, I found there more variations than I imagined. As for %u201Ccurrent%u201D racks, I%u2019m only aware of a %u201Cquick%u201C rack which is not appropriate for Europas. Could that be the German unit you were talking about?
Chances are that DBE experimented with the German unit many years ago so memory of details of their investigation may be lost, but Ken Gray has been there a long time and usually can recall details. If you%u2019re still interested their evaluation, you might ask him.
Edit: If you haven%u2019t already, you might want to check the beginning of this thread. There are some articles back there that might be of interest.