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Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Mecky on Friday,May 06, 2022, 05:33:34 AM

Title: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Friday,May 06, 2022, 05:33:34 AM
Hi guys,

as some of you may already know, I'm racing a Europa S2 with crossflow engine in Belgium and Germany. The engine is quite nice in torque and power and it seems that I have now sorted out the most important issues of the car, such as cooling, brakes and (hopefully) reliability as a whole. Now, I'm finally at the stage where I can try and upgrade the car, instead of just making it work.

As you can see in this YouTube-video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-YlW0TTYUc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-YlW0TTYUc), my lap time is limited by my own driving. But it's also limited by my gearbox. I use a Renault 395 5 speed gearbox, which I have overhauled in 2020. The gearbox works fine, but it has very long gear ratios and no limited slip diff.

I got in touch with the best-known Renault Alpine tuning company in Germany, but they can't help me, as their limitied slip diff is developed for Alpine A110, which has the gearbox in front of the engine. That would mean 5 reverse gears in my case.
Thus, my idea was to try and find out, if anyone here in this forum knows a source for a limited slip diff, which fits into the 395 gearbox. If that's unobtainable, I'd like to find out, if it's possible to get another set of crown and bevel gear, in order to make my gear ratios adjustable. My current final drive ratio is 9/34. That means a top speed of 236 kph in 5th gear at 7500 rpm. But for example at Circuit Zolder (refer to video), I only use gears 3 and 4. While this is quite relaxing for me as the driver, this is not really optimal for being fast. I guess, just a ratio, with well-useable 3rd, 4th and 5th gear would help me gain one or two seconds per lap, without even improving my own driving.

Attached, you can see some pictures of my gearbox. I have already worked on it myself, thus execution of this work shall be possible for me. But I don't know, if there is any gearbox which can be a possible donor for me. I know that an NG3 gearbox is not the right choice, as the shaft of the bevel gear is completely different, which makes it impossible to fit 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th from the 395 gearbox on it. But maybe there are other Renault 5 speed gearboxes (older than the NG3), which have the same form-locking connection between gears and shaft. In this case, there may also be a different final drive ratio available, which could allow me to have shorter ratios in all gears.
On the longest straight in my racing series (Kemmel straight at Spa-Francorchamps) I reached something around 6000 rpm in 5th gear at the braking point. That means there is room to shorten the ratios for all tracks. But even, if the new ratio would be too short for Spa, it would be great for Zolder. We are going to race there three times this year.

I'm looking forward to your replies. Thank you in advance!
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Pfreen on Friday,May 06, 2022, 06:08:27 AM
Quaife make lsd for the 365 and 336 transaxles.  I don't know about a 395.

Check with them.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Kendo on Friday,May 06, 2022, 07:32:39 AM
We had a lister many years ago who autocrossed his Europa. He cursed his LSD and tried to find oils that would kill it. Now autocross is different from road racing. What leads you to think lsd would be an upgrade?

I am no racing expert, just genuinely want to know your thinking on this.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Friday,May 06, 2022, 07:42:02 AM
Quaife’s ATB diff for the 336 fits in the 395.  I have one in mine.  ATB (Torsen) is different from LSD.  ATB requires both wheels to have at least some contact with the road for it to work.  If one lifts completely, it will let that wheel spin.  In practice, I have not found this to be an issue with a Europa though I’m not racing.

The ratios in a 395 have short gaps between 1-2 and 2-3 followed by a large gap between 3-4 and either a medium or short gap between 4-5.  The difference is that early 395s (395-00, 395-10) have 0.93 5ths and later (395-11 and up) have 0.85 5ths.

It sounds like you have a later box.  You can easily swap 5ths with just removing the rear cover.

The ideal set of gears is from an early-ish 365, perfectly spaced with a 0.91 5th.  Hard and $$$ to find.

Diffs are another matter.  The Alpine people search out R17 365 gears (365-34) and cut and shut a different pinion gear on.  I do not have my books with me but a 4.11 diff might have been used in some version of the R15/17 that could be adapted.

I’m in the same position but want to go the other way to a slightly higher final drive 3.78 to 3.4x for the highway.  Cut and shutting a Lotius 336 pinion on might be enough for me though (3.56).
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Friday,May 06, 2022, 07:45:00 AM
ATB diffs are not “lockers” like some LSD diffs.  They work great on the track as long as one wheel doesn’t lift right off.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Friday,May 06, 2022, 01:57:38 PM
Dear JB,

thank you very much for your reply. I'll check on the Quaife differential. Would be great to purchase one.

In the attached picture, you can see my current ratios. A shorter 5th would be great, but also a shorter final drive. My actual one is 3.778. A 4.11 would be great.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: GavinT on Friday,May 06, 2022, 10:31:12 PM
Stefan,
Have you considered a gearbox from the original mid-engined Renault 5 turbo? Pretty sure they had a close-ratio version available. I think they were a 369 gearbox but I don't know the ratios or other details re suitability. I reckon France is the place to look.

Another option might be a Hewland out of a Formula Ford which should be reasonably available and with the benefit of alternate ratios but, perhaps not exactly cheap even for a 4 speeder.
Of course, you'd need a bell-housing for either of these options.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Friday,May 06, 2022, 11:15:44 PM
I would think that the R5 Turbo box might bolt on as they are the same engine family but with the block in cast iron.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Friday,May 06, 2022, 11:17:29 PM
A 395-00 or -10 would also give a 3.4x first rather than your 3.8x one.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Saturday,May 07, 2022, 03:48:26 AM
We had a lister many years ago who autocrossed his Europa. He cursed his LSD and tried to find oils that would kill it. Now autocross is different from road racing. What leads you to think lsd would be an upgrade?

I am no racing expert, just genuinely want to know your thinking on this.
Hi kendo, in the video from the first post you can hear the engine revs go up faster that the car accelerates out of the two last corners of lap 1. The inside wheel is unloaded and loses traction. That costs lap time. Thats why I want to get a LSD, which keeps traction to both tires under cornering.

I have found two suppliers in Germany, who seem to have the Quaife Differential in stock. It's not exactly cheep, but affordable.

Next thing will be a used Renault gearbox. A 4.11 diff is my target, but a shorter 5th gear could also help. First is not really useful to change for me.

So, the gearbox types, I need to search for are 365 and/or 395 gearboxes from R15 and R17. Is there any addition to this list? What about Fuego, R8 etc.?

I need this information to find a used one on the internet. I want to set search alerts in order to get one. Does anyone have a list, which shows all Renault gearboxes, which fit in the Europa with the respective ratios?

Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: SwiftDB4 on Saturday,May 07, 2022, 08:49:28 AM
The following has all NG series ratios:
http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/ng.pdf
 I have an NG1-037 gearbox with 4.1 diff. Unfortunately it's a North American only Renault box so you probably won't find one in Europe.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Kendo on Saturday,May 07, 2022, 09:24:54 AM
Gavin mentioned the 369 gearbox, too.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Saturday,May 07, 2022, 10:13:12 AM
There’s an Excel spreadsheet with all the various ratios so you can compare ratios, spacing and final drive.  I have it at home but not with me.  Can someone else who has it sent it to Mechy?
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Saturday,May 07, 2022, 10:15:44 AM
The Fuego Turbo’s NG3-65 has a nice spread of ratios but still with the 3.7x final drive.  The NG series is a much stronger unit.  There are longer final drive options, might be shorter too.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: GavinT on Sunday,May 08, 2022, 10:31:53 AM
Check me on this but the original Renault 5 turbo used the Sierra cast iron block which harks back to the R8 days.
The Renault 12 also used the Sierra engine and was mated to a 352 gearbox. We know the R12 bell housing doesn't fit an 807 engine, so that's not an option.

The 369 morphed into the UN1 with apparently only minor differences and was fitted to many Renault models. The 369 /UN1 is also a much larger unit with more torque capacity. It was used in later Esprits and is also popular with the GT40 replica crowd along with Porsche G50 - and no one wants to rent a kidney for a ZF transaxle.

So, after all that, I made the mistake of assuming the 369 might be suitable based on the 'number' of the gearbox being part of the 3xx family of transaxles - it ain't. A 3xx bell housing bolt pattern is very different to a 369. (see pic below)

A UN1 would need some careful consideration.
It's both longer and wider, meaning the existing Europa drive shafts won't work.
It'd still need a bell housing and some thinking around adapting to the input shaft.

But everything is doable with enough perseverance. And on the up-side, apparently the crown wheel can be flipped, plus Albins Gears in Australia made special gear sets for them at some point.

Below is a 369 /UN1 application list I picked up somewhere along the way.
I can't remember the origin, so don't take it as gospel.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Monday,May 09, 2022, 02:27:18 AM
Gavin mentioned the 369 gearbox, too.
That's right. I found that the 369 gearbox from Renault 20 or Renault 30 was available with the 4.125 (33:8 ) final drive ratio. If I could find one of those, that would be great. But as the Renault 20 and 30 were not very succesful models, the gearboxes seem to be very rare. I have also found out that there is a 385 gearbox with an even shorter final drive (4.25, 34:8 ), but that was used in the R16, thus 5 reverse gears in this case. Of course, the 37:9 ratio (4.11) as mentioned by Gavin would also be great.

The 5th gear from the 365 gearbox (29:31; 0,935), would be nice to have, but is not so absolutely necessary. The step from 4th to 5th would not be great. 3rd and 4th are a little bit too long to fit perfectly to this 5th gear. Thus, a 33:8 or 37:9 diff would be the best for me, when having also cost-effectiveness in mind. If I find one and it fits into my 395 gearbox, I'll make a party. Together with the Quaife ATB, that would gain me a lot of lap time on slower circuits like Zolder.

Thus, the most important thing for me is now, to get to know, if the shaft of the 369 bevel gear has the same spline as the 395. Is there anyone here, who can confirm or deny that?

@jbcollier: You use the Quaife diff for the 336 gearbox in your 395? I found on the internet also a Quaife diff for 5 speed Europas. But it has another dimension (crown wheel spigot dia 110 instead of 104 mm). Thus, will this only fit the newer gearbox generations like NG3? Please refer to attached sketches.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Monday,May 09, 2022, 09:41:59 AM
The mounting circle for the 336 transaxles is smaller than that for the 365 transaxles.  That is why they are advertised as for 4spd (336) or 5spd (365).  The 395 uses the same mounting circle as the 336.

The early 395 also has a 0.93 5th.  It is VERY close to the 395’s 4th.

AFAIK, the 369 is more like an NG series than a 3-series so parts will not easily swap into a 395.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Monday,May 09, 2022, 10:04:05 AM
The mounting circle for the 336 transaxles is smaller than that for the 365 transaxles.  That is why they are advertised as for 4spd (336) or 5spd (365).  The 395 uses the same mounting circle as the 336.

The early 395 also has a 0.93 5th.  It is VERY close to the 395’s 4th.

AFAIK, the 369 is more like an NG series than a 3-series so parts will not easily swap into a 395.
Thank you JB, that means that there is no plug & play solution for a shorter final drive, which fits into my gearbox. But I have got in touch with somebody, who is said to be able to fit NG-X parts into 3XX gearboxes. Maybe I'm lucky, but it won't be cheap.

Again, thank you for the info regarding 336 and 365 diff PCDs. Thus, I'll purchase a Quaife ATB intended to be used in the 336. :pirate:
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Monday,May 09, 2022, 12:33:03 PM
The Alpine crowd also love the 365 boxes which are pure unobtainium in Alpine spec.  They swap the gears and shafts from R17s into a suitable transaxle housing and cut-n-shut the right pinion gear to the shaft. So you could do the same with yours if you can find a lower R12/15/17/ diff gears.

Don’t order the ATB diff until you know what size of diff gears you’ll actually be using.

If you do find someone who can do all this machining and mixing-n-matching, do let us know.  I’m thinking of hitting up the NA hot rod crowd but that would involve a steep learning curve on their part.  Someone who already does it would be well worth shipping things to.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: GavinT on Monday,May 09, 2022, 09:42:09 PM
If I recall, there was a guy in Scotland who did cut 'n' shut transaxle shafts for the Renault and Alpine crowd but that he's now retired.
I reckon Salv Sacco would be worth talking to.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,May 10, 2022, 12:25:33 AM
The Alpine crowd also love the 365 boxes which are pure unobtainium in Alpine spec.  They swap the gears and shafts from R17s into a suitable transaxle housing and cut-n-shut the right pinion gear to the shaft. So you could do the same with yours if you can find a lower R12/15/17/ diff gears.

Don’t order the ATB diff until you know what size of diff gears you’ll actually be using.

If you do find someone who can do all this machining and mixing-n-matching, do let us know.  I’m thinking of hitting up the NA hot rod crowd but that would involve a steep learning curve on their part.  Someone who already does it would be well worth shipping things to.
I guess, I understood something wrong. This guy is specialiced in Alpine and Gordini Renaults and races an original R8 Gordini. He suggested that the primary shaft and gears from a 365 would be best for me with a 5th gear of around 1.03. He told me that my 34:9 final drive is the shortest, which fits into a 395 gearbox. So I guess, he does not offer a cut'n'shut solution. But in the moment, he has no 365 gearbox or parts to offer.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: GavinT on Thursday,May 12, 2022, 10:40:52 AM
G'day Stefan,

Here's a 365 transaxle fitted with straight cut gears posted on Transconcept's Facebook page.
I've asked them if these gear sets are available or if this a refurbishment for a customer.
From their web site it appears they may offer gears sets for a 395 as well.

Transconcept are in France.
France is 15,000 km from me but these guys must be just down the road from you - hint, hint.  ;)

Here's their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/Transconcept-592728630768017/

Web Site:

https://www.transconcept.fr/index.php
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Thursday,May 12, 2022, 12:20:10 PM
Very cool!  Thanks.

I have driven a number of straight-cut-gear boxes.  Race only.  They just SCREAM.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: SwiftDB4 on Thursday,May 12, 2022, 12:41:02 PM
Not only are the gears straight cut, but it's a dog engagement non synchro. Wouldn't be a problem for Mecky.
Interesting possibility.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: BDA on Thursday,May 12, 2022, 01:05:46 PM
Assuming the ratios that are offered are any good for him, that should be great and shift really quickly!
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Thursday,May 12, 2022, 02:19:38 PM
Absolutely!
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: GavinT on Thursday,May 12, 2022, 03:53:50 PM
Yes they scream alright - no good for most of us but should be fine for Stefan. Also, straight cut gears are cheaper than the helicals as we all know.

I'd expect ratios could well be suitable since much of this competition stuff goes into Alpines these days - mostly road rallies and the like.

Anyway, here's hoping. I've also sent Transconcept a PM and will report back.

Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: GavinT on Tuesday,May 17, 2022, 07:14:23 AM
After a couple of false starts, Transconcept supplied this info.
My French is nonexistent, so a volunteer for a meaningful translation would be good.  :)

I have a feeling the Transconcept guys are much like many specialised businesses, Richard Winter being a case in point.
Ya gotta call in and talk to them.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Tuesday,May 17, 2022, 07:53:10 AM
Remember that their very tempting crown and pinion sets will turn the other way (I think).
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Tuesday,May 17, 2022, 07:54:08 AM
To translate just use google-translate and your phone’s camera.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: GavinT on Tuesday,May 17, 2022, 09:15:38 PM
Remember that their very tempting crown and pinion sets will turn the other way (I think).

Yeah, I'd want that cleared up but the R12-G had the gearbox behind the engine.
As I say, talking to them would straighten this out. It could well be that they do a number of less common items/mods that don't make it to their more widely publicised 'retail' list.

I'd also be asking if they do a cut 'n' shut of pinion shafts . . . or who might they recommend.  ;D
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Wednesday,May 18, 2022, 07:49:43 AM
The 5th gear in a 395 is either 0.93 (early) or 0.86 (later).  The straight cut gears on offer have options for 5th down to 1.08.  That’s a hefty rise in rpm in and of itself.  You can use the gears on your existing pinion shaft.  I’d sit down with a gear calculator and work through their options.  It might answer quite nicely.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,May 24, 2022, 03:33:55 AM
Thanks Gavin,

I have now contacted Transconcept. They are not my neighbours, but 500 km is manageable. 4 - 5 k Euros is not exactly cheap, so I won't be able to execute this modification very soon. During the next winter break at the very earliest. Maybe even a year later. I guess, they need my gearbox at their workshop for a few weeks or even months, thus no modification to be done mid-season.

I'll let you know, when they send me a quote or whatever they feed back on my request. I have pretended that my diff is already equipped with the Quaife ATB, thus I hope they reply that it can stay or be re-used after the mod. If not, I'll have to re-consider my preferences on money-spending (and driving more races this season). I'd like to buy a Quaife ATB for my gearbox in July 2022, but if it couldn't be used in the Transconcept gearbox, this money would be sort of wasted.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Tuesday,May 24, 2022, 03:13:14 PM
Was mucking about on Aussie Frogs and found the following:

"The 5-speed gearboxes from Romania are labled '365', but their c/p- sets have 395-dimensions, there are two ratios 9*34 as general standard and 8*33 especially designed for pick-ups.
The c/p-ratio of the 395 is 9*34 in general and 9*31 only for R18 Diesel R1344/1354."

If you can find a Romanian 8/33 (4.125:1) it will fit in your 395.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Wednesday,May 25, 2022, 01:15:24 AM
Hi jb,

great piece of information. I have checked and it's true that the Dacia 1304 pick-up (closely related to the Renault R12) used a 5 speed gearbox, which is called 365 and has a 8/33 diff ratio. The drawings from the workshop manual are the same as in the 395 manual, thus all very plausible. Such a car can be purchased in Romania for less than half what a Transconcept gearbox would cost me. But I think to find a working gearbox in Romania and get it to Germany for reasonable costs, is not easy. I will keep my eyes open, nonetheless. Thank you!

I'm looking forward to the reply from Transconcept. I have already shaped my plans for the seasons 2022 and 2023 around that gear box build. I will trade one or two races this year in order to save the money for the gearbox. I hope they will make an offer soon.
I guess that a good gearbox with useable (hence shorter) 3rd, 4th & 5th gear (top speed not higher than 200 kph) and limited slip diff could gain me around 2 seconds per lap in Zolder. At least I hope so. I only use there 3rd and 4th in the moment. But there are at least three corners, in which my revs fell below 4500 RPM (which is where my torque starts to build massively), but it didn't make sense to shift down, because the steps between the gears are too big. I'd have to shift back up, when I'm still on the outside curb just after I got back on the throttle. And of course the advantage in straight line acceleration would gain me a lot of time.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Thursday,May 26, 2022, 12:40:15 PM
After a couple of false starts, Transconcept supplied this info.
My French is nonexistent, so a volunteer for a meaningful translation would be good.  :)

I have a feeling the Transconcept guys are much like many specialised businesses, Richard Winter being a case in point.
Ya gotta call in and talk to them.
Now, I received the very same two sheet from them. But I'm still not sure, if they took into consideration that my gearbox is different to Alpine A110 and that I don't want to have 5 reverse gears. The price is high, but it seems they offer a real limited slip diff, which I'd prefer over a Quaife Torsen diff. I will try and get confirmed, that they will not sell me five reverse gears. Once they confirm, I'll start to save money. My kind of gearbox will cost at least 6 K Euros. But as you say, the customer support via email is bad. The reply didn't answer anything from my email.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: GavinT on Friday,May 27, 2022, 08:12:07 AM
Yeah, pick up the phone, I reckon, Stefan.
That way, you'll get all the answers in 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Monday,December 19, 2022, 12:32:53 AM
The mounting circle for the 336 transaxles is smaller than that for the 365 transaxles.  That is why they are advertised as for 4spd (336) or 5spd (365).  The 395 uses the same mounting circle as the 336.

The early 395 also has a 0.93 5th.  It is VERY close to the 395’s 4th.

AFAIK, the 369 is more like an NG series than a 3-series so parts will not easily swap into a 395.
Hey jb,
as you are familiar with the Quaife mod for the 395 gearbox, could you please tell me, which pin they mean, when they ask, if I have 5 mm or 7 mm pin diameter? And what if one of them is not in stock? Can I convert one version into the other (e.g. by drilling a Ø7 mm hole, where it used to be 5 mm)? I have not dismantled my diff, yet.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: buzzer on Tuesday,December 20, 2022, 02:23:22 AM
What might help is sourcing the parts and the knowledge. There is a guy in the UK who specialised in Renault Alpines and Renault 5 Turbos  (the rear engine one's) so he may be useful. contact His name is John Law and in Essex in the UK. I have a Renault Alpine GTA as well and he is modifying my inlet manifold for me at the moment

https://en-gb.facebook.com/jlengineeringuk/
john@johnlawengineering.co.uk

Dave
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,December 20, 2022, 05:14:14 AM
I found the answer. They are talking about the pin holes in the splined shafts, which come out of the gearbox on the left and right hand side and get connected to the drive shafts. Quaife only has the 5 mm version in stock, which is right for me. Of course, one could convert a 5 mm pin hole into a 7 mm, if required. That's why it makes sense for Quaife to keep only that one version in stock.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Wednesday,December 21, 2022, 04:14:57 AM
Sorry about missing your question.  PM me as well next time.  It wasn’t an issue for me as I’m running a twin link set up and don’t use pins.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Monday,February 06, 2023, 03:47:39 AM
Hi guys, I did buy the Quaife ATB now and it's very easy to fit. @jb: Did you re-use the original differential bolts? Quaife does not deliver new ones with the diff.

I will now do a gearbox overhaul, when it's already open. Not so easy to source all the bearings, as they are quite special. Does anybody here have a list of the bearings used inside the 395 gearbox with detailed description or maybe even part number? I guess, the 365 uses the same bearings. Maybe there is a parts list available somewhere in the interweb.

These are the bearings that I found (diameters of inner and outer ring x width):
- 2 x tapered roller bearings Ø72/35 x 19 mm (differential lateral)
- 1 x cylindrical roller bearing Ø40/17 x 16 mm with retainer ring in outer ring (input shaft at front of diff)
- 1 x double tapered roller bearing Ø52/25 x 28.5 mm with axial contact surface Ø58 and groove Ø48 mm in the outer ring (input shaft rear)
- 1 x needle bearing (needle roller and cage assembly) Ø32/29 x 30 mm (4th gear input shaft)
- 1 x cylindrical roller bearing Ø72/32 x 18 mm with retainer ring in outer ring (front output shaft)
- 1 x double tapered roller bearing Ø67/25 x 30 mm with axial contact surface Ø75 and groove Ø63 mm in the outer ring (rear output shaft)

I'm not sure about all these special names of different roller bearings, but this is roughly what I need. Some of them can be seen in detail on the photos.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Monday,February 06, 2023, 05:06:37 AM
I reused the diff bolts with no problems though I’m not racing.  If anyone has them, it will be Meca Parts.

There is a Renault transmission parts manual here:

http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/index.htm

Specifically:

http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/r17_trans.pdf

Covers 352, 395 and 365 transaxles from the R27.  I used it to get Renault part numbers and dimensions which I then used to match those on offer from Meca.  The pinion bearing was not exactly the same, different snap ring groove location, but I was able to make it work.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Rainer on Monday,February 06, 2023, 06:28:13 AM
Be carefull,
The shoulder bearings on my 395 do have different inner diameters, one of them is a special bearing and was hard to source.
If needed i can look up the number and where i ordered it.

Rainer
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Friday,August 25, 2023, 05:47:32 AM
Hi guys,

I just wanted to give a quick feedback on my 395 gearbox upgrades.

My preferred 100% solution would have been to bring my gearbox to the company Trans Concept in France and let them put a whole set of new bevel and ring gear, five pairs of gears, bearings, selectors and all the other stuff into my old housing. But this would mean a price in a ballpark between 8.5 and 12 k €. This is even without a limited slip diff. With a clutch type LSD the costs could go up to 14 k. That price is Hewland territory and a bit too much for my budget. Especially after I had serious trouble with my 807 cylindre head. I'm letting a new 1596 cc type 807 engine being built by an Alpine specialist in Germany. That consumes a huge chunk of money, as well.

Earlier this year, I installed a Quaife ATB differential, which was a nice upgrade over the standard (open) diff. From my iteration of data analysis, I found that the Quaife alone helped me gain at least 5 - 6 tenths of a second per lap at Circuit Zolder in Belgium. That's quite a short track (4000 metres) without very long straights. The fastest point is a straight of around 500 metres length, which follows after a quick right hander. With my old gearing, I'm exiting the corner in 4th gear with around 115 kph and accelerate without any upshift to 180 kph, before I hit the brakes. Frankly, the 5th is useless there. I can only use 3rd and 4th gear on that race track. Not really racy.

That's why I have now found a way to make the gears more useable on shorter and slower tracks, while it still allows a high-enough top speed for the fastest track that I race on (Spa-Francorchamps). There is a company in Germany, which is able to manufacture special bevel and ring gears for historic racing cars in small numbers and even one-offs. The cost is ~5 k € for the quantity of 1 pair. I think, it's a 90 % solution for around half the price of the Trans Consept gearbox.
I will now order a 33:8 diff ratio, which should reduce my top speed by 20 kph from 232 kph (5th @ 7500 RPM with my current tyres) to 212 kph. Still a lot for Circuit Zolder, but at least it will give me quicker acceleration through the gears and one more gear to use. The upshift to 5th will be at around 165 kph, a speed which I exceed three times per lap.

I hope, I will be able to improve my best lap at Circuit Zolder (the closest race track to my location) by a significant amount. With the standard gearbox, I reached 1:58.155 min and a theoretical best of 1:57.962. At the same race, my average time was ~1:59. When I can reduce the average to a 1:57 and my personal best to a low 1:56 or maybe even 1:55, I will be in the mix to fight for class wins regularly. I think, the upgrades have the potential to bring me (at least a lot closer) to this target.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: GavinT on Friday,August 25, 2023, 09:57:55 PM
G'day Stefan,

That sure sounds like a lot of money.
This might be going full circle but I'm wondering how difficult it might be to find a R-12 365 gearbox in the EU. I recall Australia only imported four of them to contest the Australian rally championship but there must be oodles of them in Europe by comparison.

Sometimes the rally crowd are a good place to fish. Didn't the rally boys have access to a shorter diff ratio in Europe - I thought they had a 4.125 (33/8) option available from the factory.
Have you talked to Salv Sacco? - he likely has lots of contacts on the rally scene.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Saturday,August 26, 2023, 08:08:13 AM
Bit out there, but could you change your final drive by just fitting smaller diameter wheels and tires?
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Tuesday,August 29, 2023, 09:07:37 AM
Thanks for your input guys. I researched a bit and read that a complete 365 gearbox costs around 4 - 5 k € here in Europe and that's the same ball park as my new diff. With the new diff, I have no risk of used parts, which may be damaged without me or even the seller knowing. That's why I prefer the new parts, even if the 365 gearbox could save me a few Euros.

Regarding the wheels, I'm already at the absolute limit of my race series' rules. I went from Kumho tyres (235/45R13) to Pirelli (225/45R13) and the Pirellis have the smallest allowable diameter. That reduced my top speed from 236 to 232 kph. Even if it would be legal, I'm not even sure, if there are 13" semi-slick tyres available, which fit on my 9" wide rims and have a smaller diameter compared to the Pirellis.
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Mecky on Saturday,March 23, 2024, 01:17:36 PM
Finally, my 395 with 4.125 ratio and Quaife ATB is ready. Great craftsmanship from the gear factory. Installation worked great. I only had to exchange one shim with a slightly thinner one (difference: 0.06 mm). Thus, the manufacturing quality is great. Installation of the gearbox is tomorrow. Dyno run in about 1.5 weeks, test on track in 2 weeks time.

 :ttiwwp:
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: jbcollier on Sunday,March 24, 2024, 07:17:18 AM
Sweet!

I have all the bits to do my 395/365/352 fusion.  Just been tied up with other projects.  This year for sure!
Title: Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
Post by: Fotog on Sunday,March 24, 2024, 08:27:22 PM
I hope you have success with that change.  It's interesting to hear what you're doing with the car and especially gearing, in pursuit of racing success.  Thanks for posting!

Vince