Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Technical Articles and DIY tools and tips => Topic started by: 4129R on Tuesday,October 31, 2023, 10:08:49 AM
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I have brought back 7 Europas to the County of their birth Norfolk, from the USA. 6 were basket cases, 1 was running, 4129R.
I am in the process of registering 3 at DVLA, and being "jobsworths", they are being difficult.
When you fill in the V55/5 form, the VIN number has to match both the import paperwork from HMRC, and the Title from the USA. In my case, this VIN number had to be for example 74/3089R, whereas the VIN plate says 73023089R. The 74 is the Lotus Type model i.e. Europa Twin Cam, and as we all know 3089 is the chassis and body number, and R is a Federal Spec car, (P is UK spec, and Q European spec).
Having mastered that problem (all 3 applications were rejected for this and the reason given was in complete gobbledegook and not understandable), 3089R is still being rejected by DVLA as the Pennsylvania Title calls it 75/3089R, but the HMRC paperwork refers to it correctly 74/3089R.
I have now sent a letter to DVLA with a photo of the VIN plate (73023089R) explaining that the car is 74/3089R and not 75/3089R, and the title issued in February 1982, some 41 years ago, is incorrect calling it 75/3089R, and saying it was first registered in 74. I sent them also a screenshot of the Lotus Europa Registry (photo below) to further evidence its nomenclature.
The other two cars were inspected today, so I hope to have two registration numbers very soon.
Fingers crossed the application for 3089R will be accepted and inspected soon.
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Sorry that there are now 7 fewer Europas in the States but really happy that they were restored to proper running condition and will be driven! Well done!
Good luck slaying the bureaucratic beast!
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it may be worth asking (and possibly paying) for assistance from Andy Graham at Lotus Archives?
Either way, good luck with the task!
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it may be worth asking (and possibly paying) for assistance from Andy Graham at Lotus Archives?
Either way, good luck with the task!
I sent them this email ..............
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It is now over 6 months since started to register 3089R, and 10 weeks since I replied to DVLA advising them that I had sent them all the possible documentation and evidence possible, including a photo of the VIN plate and a Certificate of Provenance from Lotus Cars Ltd.
As this is a Government Department, I have made a complain to my MP about the appalling service DVLA are providing.
I could not make a complaint to DVLA, as their on-line complaint form cannot be submitted to them without a vehicle registration number, which is the very thing I am asking them to give me. Catch 22 !!! I cannot complain about not getting a registration number, as I have not got a registration number to fill in the complaint form. Typical Government bureaucracy, which makes absolutely no sense. I am a bit "miffed".
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4 days after contacting my MP and only 3 days after my MP sent a letter to DVLA, I received the following today from DVLA:-
Good Morning
Apologies for the delay we were seeking further advice regarding the VIN number. Whilst I appreciate your explanations in your correspondence to us we do need to verify these things ourselves also. We have carried out our checks and are satisfied with the vehicle. I have returned your application to our first registration and imports department who will process your application as urgent.
Providing the first registration department are happy that you have provided them with everything they need to legally import the vehicle you should receive your new V5 in the next 10 days, if they need to speak to you regarding anything they will be in contact.
It seems a kick up the backside from my MP was what was needed to get them to extract their digit.
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All it took was an act of (a member of) Parliament!
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Bureaucracy at its finest.
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Apologies for the delay we were seeking further advice regarding the VIN number. Whilst I appreciate your explanations in your correspondence to us we do need to verify these things ourselves also. We have carried out our checks and are satisfied with the vehicle.
Given that you'd contacted Lotus themselves who explained that some records no longer existed and you'd sent a photo of the VIN plate in evidence, I wonder just where they were "seeking further advice" from ?
Deliberately Vague, Lazy Ars.... I think we can all work that out. I've no faith at all with the current organisation although in the early 80s they did provide a folder packed with all the previous history of my Elan, copies of logbooks, etc, for a fiver. Mind you, it also included data for someone's Hillman as well...... :)
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Given that you'd contacted Lotus themselves who explained that some records no longer existed and you'd sent a photo of the VIN plate in evidence, I wonder just where they were "seeking further advice" from ?
Those were exactly my thoughts. With a letter from the manufacturers, and a Certificate of Providence from Lotus Records, what else did they expect, what further evidence could I provide? Did they actually contact Lotus or were they just checking with their superior line manager who takes 10 weeks to find?
For my 4 previous registrations, they had sent someone to actually view the car to look at the VIN and engine number, but this time, they seem to have accepted my paperwork with help from my MP.
I have 2 more to register, I just hope they will go through without 6 months of bureaucracy and delay.
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Makes you wonder what’s the problem with these Department of Motor Vehicle bureaucrat’s and the DMV hierarchy. All they should be concerned with is protection of the public, i.e. is the car reported stolen? I’m sure their extensive data base could tell them that. All this is nothing but a government control program and money grab. Anyway, at least where I live in the States we have no MOT. Wonder, statically speaking, what’s the death rate between states or nations with annual mechanical inspections and those without?I bet not much, but the outlay of monies from the vehicle owner to the state is significant.
I did see once that Autobahn death rates where there were no speed limits were no greater than speed mandated sections.
Anyway I say cheat, steal and obfuscate anyway you can . They are doing it to you.
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I have 2 more to register, I just hope they will go through without 6 months of bureaucracy and delay.
Just walk up to the counter and say . . . Remember me? ;D
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Unlike when I registered an imported car in Perth W.A., where they give you the plates over the counter there and then, in the UK you have to deal with everything by post or online, so no faces, just bureaucracy hiding behind anonymity.
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Well.............despite DVLA's email, shown in my earlier post above, I got another email today saying that they have appointed a company to inspect 3089R at my home.
The stupid bureaucracy continues. What exactly do they want to see that I have not already sent them? Surely the Certificate of Provenance and photo of the VIN plate is sufficient. But no, they have their path to follow, boxes to tick, despite everything that I have sent them.
So we waste another 2 weeks so that they can see the VIN plate in real life. I will just have to be patient while they go through their regimented processes.
I expect they will issue me with a really grotty registration number just to punish me for complaining about them to my MP.
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What gets me about all this is the cost that the DVLA is ramping up and of course us taxpayers/motorists ultimately get the bill without any say in how the DVLA is operated.
Regardless of the frustration to yourself, every delay/email/visit is costing money somewhere along the line and I'm struggling to see the benefit to the country. It could be even worse, you could be a small business where cash flow is critical and this sort of thing puts you out of business.
Looking back at the email from them, they refer to passing your details to another department in order to register the vehicle and I suspect you're starting again with another set of people who clearly don't trust the part of the DVLA that you've been dealing with or the evidence that they have passed on. Hence the "I wanna see it" visit.
Plus of course it's a jolly day out, nice drive through rural Norfolk with a pub lunch thrown in on expenses. It's a good job I'm not cynical..... but I'd be very tempted to have a quiet word with your MP about just how inefficient (incompetent ?) this process is.
chin up Alex, you'll get there in the end, how do you fancy DVL 4OK ?
Brian
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Inspection tomorrow.
I wonder if it will be the same chappy who came 4-5 months ago.
I wonder what he will look at. They said it had to be roadworthy for inspection. If I cannot drive the f'ing car on the road as it is not registered, how can I see if it is roadworthy? Chicken ........ egg.
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Given the DVLA I suspect that phrase is just to stop someone registering a collection of rusty old bits as a D type Jag or something, wasn't there something about a crackdown on people doing that sort of thing a few years ago ?
If it's just a guy coming to look at the car then there's not much he can do other than walk round it, check there's a wheel at each corner, headlights, etc. He can't check for roadworthiness without an MoT station unless of course he's allowed to drive it ? There can't be much doubt after the restoration work you've been doing.
Genuine question - could you or a mechanic have driven it for an MoT on trade plates ?
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Genuine question - could you or a mechanic have driven it for an MoT on trade plates ?
Yes, 6 months ago, when I started to register it, the car started and ran well.
But .............. sitting around for 6 months, it is now sulking and will need persuasion to start, a bit like Henry the engine who would not come out of the tunnel when it was raining.
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Same man came back this morning. He checked the engine number, the VIN plate, two seat belts (???), and the mileage. He made sure his photo of the VIN plate did not show the engine number as it differed from the Sxxxxx number on the block.
Old VIN plates are not easy to read after they were stamped lightly on manufacture, and a bit of oxidation to the ally plate over the last 50 years. 3089R is a Feb 1973 manufacture.
According to Lotus, this car started as exported to Canada, and the registry has it in Taylors South Carolina. My title from Feb 1982 had it in Pennsylvania, so not far from Canada. Maybe then it wanted warmer weather, moved south and never got re-registered in SC.
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What a palava...
In Oz we can get an "unregistered vehicle permit" which is valid for 1 - 7 days which allows moving a vehicle for a whole host of reasons which, of course, includes getting a safety inspection certificate - our version of an MOT.
Don't know if you guys have mobile MOT outfits. I had to change registration after moving states and called a mobile guy who did the job in about an hour. That was easier than I expected. Not all our cars are required to go over the pits these days . . maybe just 'new' registrations which is probably the same treatment as an imported car.
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Today I get another letter from DVLA rejecting my application.
The photograph of the VIN plate shows 72033089R but the application is for 74/3089R.
This is despite a letter from Lotus explaining it all.
I am absolutely fuming (= very miffed).
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In case you weren’t convinced that all the bad things you’d heard about bureaucracies were true…
I do hope somebody over there comes to their senses soon!
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Today I get another letter from DVLA rejecting my application.
The photograph of the VIN plate shows 72033089R but the application is for 74/3089R.
This is despite a letter from Lotus explaining it all.
I am absolutely fuming (= very miffed).
I don't suppose anyone would contemplate buying a duplicate VIN plate from Ebay, stamping it up themselves and then re-applying saying they'd mixed up the photographs, would they ? ;)
Brian
(when dealing with idiots you have to drop down a level or two)
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Today I get another letter from DVLA rejecting my application.
The photograph of the VIN plate shows 72033089R but the application is for 74/3089R.
This is despite a letter from Lotus explaining it all.
I am absolutely fuming (= very miffed).
I don't suppose anyone would contemplate buying a duplicate VIN plate from Ebay, stamping it up themselves and then re-applying saying they'd mixed up the photographs, would they ? ;)
Brian
(when dealing with idiots you have to drop down a level or two)
Andy Graham hasn't got any. I asked a while ago !!!
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Can you title it as a home-built special? You could call it an Alex TC!
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I have told them, I have sent them the Lotus documents, and given them 5 working days to respond or I will contact my MP again.
Their total incompetence is astounding.
It is like snakes and ladders with plenty of big long snakes (reticulated pythons and anacondas) and very few very short ladders.
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Andy Graham hasn't got any. I asked a while ago !!!
Do you honestly think someone in the DVLA would know the difference between a genuine, 1970s VIN plate from Lotus and one of the Ebay replicas ?
Being serious I think you've got to recognise you're dealing with box tickers rather than people who are able to think logically, look at evidence and take a decision. It's always easier to request "more tests/data" or reject something if every box doesn't have a tick to absolve you of any thought process and take the decision for you.
Recognising that and knowing that you're not doing anything improper, have full title/ownership and import papers for the cars you're registering, well, I'd just make sure that box was ticked for them. And I'd have a clear conscience; it's not fraudulent because the cars are genuine and that's been accepted by Lotus, the original manufacturer, it's someone who's incapable of taking a decision.
They are arguing about a simple error made almost 50yrs ago which is stupid, more so when you consider the DVLA themselves are hardly paragons of accuracy. As I've mentioned before, when I requested the history for my Elan in 2011 as a classic I received not only my Elan (UAB 807F) but also paperwork for someone else's Hillman Hunter, UAB 807L. So it would seem they have trouble reading their own records....
Brian
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Maybe this feels more legit than a random ebay seller?
https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ036A0002.htm
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Maybe this feels more legit than a random ebay seller?
https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ036A0002.htm
That's the one.
Thanks for the link, I deal with SJS regularly.
If DVLA mess me around any more, there is always that to fall back on.
The problem is they have a photo of that exact plate with 73023089R stamped on it, so if I send a photo of one with 74/3089R stamped on it (and I already have the stamp dies) they should smell a rat.
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Don't you mean that you mixed up the photographs from the cars in your fleet and sent them the wrong one ? Happily, thanks to their questioning you've realised your mistake and have sent them a photo of the plate that's rivetted in the car you're wishing to register.
The other (wrong) plate/car will be up for registration in the future when you've finished it, by which time they'll have forgotten all about it.
Brian
PS - if you do decide this course of action, PM me and I'll remove all my posts on this thread, just in case......
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I received a reply to my email to DVLA, proving that one department does not communicate at all with another department.
1) I sent the letter and Certificate of Provenance from Lotus to a 2nd department, they accepted the car identity from those documents, and sent it back to the 1st department. When the 1st department rejected it again, they asked for proof from the manufacturer.
2) In the email below, he (2nd department) says he cannot find my vehicle in the 1st department on his system.
Here is the latest email:-
Apologies for the continued issues with registering your lotus, when I sent it back it shouldn’t have been rejected as far as we are concerned for anything related to the VIN number. In order to understand a bit better can you please send me a copy/photo of the rejection letter I for some reason am unable to find your vehicle in their system not sure if they have stored it under something else.
Then after I get the email reply, I get this email:-
We have received your email. If we need more information we’ll contact you.
Processing times
You should allow up to 10 weeks from this acknowledgment of receipt.
If you’ve already provided the requested images of your vehicle or any other supporting documentation, do not resend, or use this email address for an update on your application, you will not get your vehicle log book (V5C) sooner.
If you need advice
For general advice not relating to your current application for a vehicle log book (V5C), you can find the relevant contact details by following the link below:
https://www.gov.uk/contact-the-dvla
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Letter dated 19th April from DVLA rejecting my application for the 5th time, for the same reason, despite my letter from Lotus explaining everything.
73023089R does not equal 74/3089R.
My original application was dated 15th September, so here we are 7 months and 9 days later.
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19th April eh ? Obviously first class postage or you'd still be waiting in May.
Ah well, Photoshop time......
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Email received from DVLA today from First Registration Support Team Admin Officer. "Please phone me".
DVLA (lady with very strong musical Welsh accent) "I apologise, your application should not have been rejected."
Me. "I have registered 4 cars previously.
You gave registration number TFS123K to a car and used a VIN number of 72062420R.
FWW506M VIN number of 744259R
FWW497M VIN number of 4376R
AOA 76M VIN number of 74/4129R
Well, they seem to be consistently non-consistent in what they think is the correct VIN number, from the same import information !
Well............. nice lady traced my paperwork delivered to Swansea sorting office at 12.15 today. She will get it at 15.00 today, and will sort it out on Monday.
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I guess every bureaucracy has one or two people with common sense. Congratulations on finding her or in this case she finding you!
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:trophy:
Glad to see there appears to be a light at the end of the tunnel. :BEER3:
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I'd hold your horses until you see if it's registered as a car. motorcycle, lorry, caravan or invalid carriage.....
:)
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I'd hold your horses until you see if it's registered as a car. motorcycle, lorry, caravan or invalid carriage.....
:)
My next door neighbour has 7 horses, I just have 7 Europas.
I have a motorcycle licence, but not an HGV licence. If it gets registered as a caravan, I had better watch out for "travellers" borrowing it.