Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: HelpMyLotus on Wednesday,August 09, 2017, 05:53:33 AM
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I posted this in the classifieds, but wanted to be sure a possible solution would be seen by as many members as possible. My 5 speed box took a dump yesterday. I'm interested in replacement solutions if anyone has them.
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The usual replacement or source of 5 speed transaxles is the Renault NG3, though jbcollier uses a 395, I believe. Hopefully, he will chime in as I know even less about it than other trannies.
First, I would say that parts for the 365 are more available than I once thought. If you're interested in repairing your 365, you should look into http://www.mecaparts.com/ and http://www.alpine-america.qc.ca/. That may be a bit redundant as I am led to understand that Alpine-America sells the Meca line. I mention Apline-America because they claim particular knowledge of Lotus and might have other suppliers that would be helpful.
I know a little about NG3 transplants. The NG3 came from the Renault Fuego which was imported back in the '80s. You may still be able to find one in a junque yard. You can try car-part.com. You would obviously want one from the latest Turbo Fuego you can find. There are modifications to the tranny that are required and are spelled out here (http://www.greytower.com/jon/lotus/europa/gearbox/gearbox.html). You will also need an alternate shift mechanism. Richard at Banks will sell you the whole shoot'n match (or at least enough to get you close). I believe there are plans on the lotuseuropa yahoo group (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lotuseuropa/info) for cable shifters. When I installed mine, I had to have a new rear hoop installed to accommodate it. That wasn't a huge deal since I was doing a ground up rebuild and I had a friend who was a good welder. I think I have seen where someone was able to use the standard 365 rear hoop but I didn't see how that would work when I did mine. Richard could advise you there.
I didn't mention the 352 since it is a 4 speed but it should be a drop in replacement for a 365 and if you drive primarily in town, you probably wouldn't loose much. I don't know anything about the availability for 352s.
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What's the problem? Most likely best to fix what you have unless the cases are broken.
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I have every bolt that holds the trans off. The last fight was the speedo cable but thanks to Google I found the hidden screw and removed it.
Now I don't see how it comes out as it's wedged between the engine and rear hoop. I was intending on leaving the bell housing on the engine, but maybe that is where I'm going wrong. I have a large hoist so maybe I should remove the entire lump?
Any and all advice (or criticism) is welcome. Once out and split I'll know much more.
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I think you'll need to take the bell housing with the tranny. That reduces the distance you have to move the tranny toward the rear, and I think you'll probably need to take it out the top but then it's been a long time since I took my 365 out of my car. If I could do it when I was forty years younger, I'm sure you won't have any trouble.
Just a guess, I suspect the speedo gear shredded. I believe replacements are very difficult to find - if they can be had at all (maybe our own Certified Lotus could find one!). If that is the case, the solution is to clean the plastic out of the tranny, put it back together and install it in the car and then swap your speedo with an electronic or GPS unit.
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The bell housing to tranny bolts are inside the bell housing so it's comes out with the transaxle.
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Unfortunately the transmission/bell housing has to come as a single unit. As stated above, most of the bolts attaching the bell housing to the transmission is inside the bell housing.
I remember removing 365 from my TCS in the parking lot of my apartment complex about 35 years ago to replace a badly slipping clutch. Being my only form of transportation, I had to call in sick for a couple of days while I furiously worked on getting the transaxle out. I believe I had to disconnect both engine mounts while I tilted the engine/365 down to remove the transaxle from the Europa while supporting the engine with jackstands. Somehow, I got the clutch replaced and the transaxle re-installed with out killing myself. Looking back I would never do that again but when you're young, have no money and have to get to work, you do what you have to do.
Both times that I've had to remove the engine/ transaxle, I remove the unit from the bottom by lifting the entire car by the rear hoop with an engine hoist. Others have been successful by removing the engine from the top, your choice.
What is the problem with the 365? Can you shift the gearbox directly by the selector output shaft at the rear of the gearbox by hand at all?
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HelpMyLotus sent you an private message see pic
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Does anyone know if the nose of the trans can be swapped from side load to rear load? The one pictured appears to be a side mounted shifter while mine is a rear.
How about the bell housing? Mine looks slightly different.
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Not an expert by a long shot but here's my opinion. I believe there is going to be major mechanical/engineering changes required to go from a side shift to rear shift. More than just swapping out the rear cover. I don't know of any owner that has done it, easier to modify the ear hoop and shifter to swap out gearboxes. I wouldn't even bother to guess what it would cost for the modification or if it's even possible.
I looked back over this thread and I can't find any description of your gearbox problem and how you diagnosed the problem is with the gearbox and not with the shift rod mechanism.
If you need to get the 365 torn apart and inspected/repaired, I believe Richard Kemp at Kampena Motors does Renault gearboxes. Maybe Runningwild can chime in. He sent his gearbox to Rich for overhaul.
Finally, the gearbox pictures posted by dakazman appears to a NGx with a Renault bell housing. You have a TC bell housing. From my collection of Renault gearbox, it appears that any 336/365/395/NGx box will fit on a TC bell housing.
You have to fabricate/obtain a new rear hoop and a shifter mechanism.
If I'm wrong on any of this someone please correct me. I've attached a rogues gallery on my Renault gearbox collection gathered over 30+ years.
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I think you're probably right, Joji. I certainly agree with you and John that he needs to figure out what is wrong with his 365 first.
On a side note, are those pictures of your trannies? That's got to be a good feeling! ;D
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Wow I agree . That's some collection and a great introduction to transmissions.
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Dr G is correct in that you can't easily swap rear housings. You can though swap your shift linkage to one that suits a side shift transaxle.
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On a side note, it is surprising what people have stuffed in the back corner of their garages. I picked up all of the trannies pictured over a 30+ year period from, want ads, and Lotus club newsletters (pre-internet), and Craigslist and ebay. All were offered pretty cheap and being a parts hoarder, I snapped them up.
Going back to HelpMyLotus 365 issue, I still don't know what his transmission problem is, whether it's an internal transmission problem or a shifting problem.
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The problem is in the box. I was in 1st, feathering the clutch on a hill. I then went to fully engage the clutch and it felt like it was slipping. Then after accelerating it clunked so I pushed in the clutch. I rolled 20 feet or so, pulled off to the side and it locked. Both wheels seized. When I got it home I lifted the rear and could spin the wheel one direction causing the other to roll the other way. So the spiders/cage are intact.
It was making a clunking sound when you coasted to a stop. Timed to a rotation of the wheel. If you accelerated it went away.
I know I know, I should not have driven it. I figured it was a bearing slowly wearing . . . . or something.
I'll get it out soon. Should I pull it apart (or at least split it?) or leave it for the professionals? There is a guy in town here (Grand Rapids MI) who came highly recommended for Brit trans rebuilds.
I just want to know what the problem is. If it's a bucket of fragments is there even use getting it to a shop?
Grumblebuns, do you have a 365 for sale?
Lastly: Two days before the Lotus puked I burned up a set of idle gear bearings in my 67 Cooper S. The 73 Midget engine is in the shop too. Man this sucks.
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Again my opinion and not knowing your history with working on transmissions. Personally, I have not experience with delving into the internals of manual transmissions. If this happened to me, I wouldn't know what to look for. Broken and jammed gears would be obvious, but I wouldn't know what other collateral damage to look for. The other factor to consider is the availability of 365 parts. Personally I would talk to the local transmission expert first and get his opinion.
I would also consider contacting Rich Kemp at Kampena Motors. He's had experience working on Europa transaxles for other owners. He may have a stash of parts that you need.
http://kampena.com/
The 365 transaxle is a rare beast, that rarely comes up for sale and when it does, expect to pay a pretty penny for it. If after examination you come to the conclusion that you need a replacement, contact me, maybe we can come to a suitable deal.
Joji Tokumoto
Fallbrook, Ca
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That really is a run of bad luck!
Unless that wrench has worked on a Europa, it's unlikely he's worked on anything like your 365 (since it's a Renault tranny). But then, with the manual, he shouldn't have any trouble working on it.
I think I would take it out and split it open and see what can be seen. Many years ago, I took mine out and opened it up - and successfully put it all back together - so it's not as daunting as you might think. If it's something obvious and non terminal, you might be able to fix it your self. If it's not obvious, you can put it back together enough to give to that wrench. If you need parts, remember Meca Parts and Alpine-America. As I said earlier, I've been led to understand that parts for the 365 are not as unavailable as I thought. As Joji said, 365s are pretty rare. I think they were used in a Renault, in addition to the Europa, but I believe the 5th gear is a Lotus adaptation.
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Diagnosis over the phone is tricky but perhaps a broken tooth on the ring gear. Pop off the bell housing once the transaxle is out and you'll know.
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Many parts such as synchros are available, others like 2nd gear are complete unobtainium (guess how I know). I have a 365 box with all brand new seals, bearings and synchros, but needs a 2nd gear. After searching for a couple years I gave up and put in a NG3. If you go the NG3 route do some research as they came with some very different gearing. The one from the turbo Fuego has the closest to the 365, though 1st gear is better suited for pulling stumps or rock crawling than in a light weight sports car.
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Finally got the trans out. I needed to take the bell with it first (like you all said) then it dropped down and away just fine. Got the bell off and found a chunk of metal that looked like a ring that would fit over a synchro or something. Took the end cap off and found sludge in the valleys. In order to split the case I need to remove the large gears on the end. they cover the bolts that hold the end plate on. Still not sure it this is territory I should be toying with. I may just hand it off to the experts.
LotusJPS: So you did the 395 box conversion? I may be interested if I'm unable to fix mine. I just don't want too much fixing and altering to do.
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Dropped off the trans at a shop I we referred to. Hopefully I hear back with moderate to great news. We'll see.
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OK everyone, it's dead. I talked to the trans shop who informed me a bearing has spun, gears 1 through 5 were damaged, a fork damaged and so on.
Looking for a 365 before I go the 395 route. I'd REALLY like to keep it original. Happy to supply my box as a core on a working box.
Begging. It's my dad's car I'd like to take him for a ride in before his time is up.
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I believe our own andy harwood has fit an NG3 in a 365 frame (with a little help from a persuader on the rear hoop). I don't know if the 395 is as easy to find or will fit as easily. I believe our own jbcollier has a 395 in his S1 and he might be able to advise you about avialability and fitting. Because I know nothing about the 395 or installing it, I would advise you to get an NG3. Richard at Banks sells a kit including linkage and mounts. Shipping is usually pretty quick.
Good luck, both with your car and your dad!
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365 transaxles are not very common. One or two show up on ebay every year with internal condition unknown. You would need one from a Europa as they have the differential going in the right direction and the longer 0.86 fifth gear (Hewland-made, Lotus-only, now-unobtainium part). The Renault R17G 365 is rare as hen's teeth and doesn't come with the longer 5th. Other versions of the 365 are from rear drive applications so the diff goes the wrong way.
The 395 transaxle was used in the R17G through to early R18 (I think). Early versions have a nice 3.4X first gear but a 0.91 fifth. Later 395s have a less useful shorter first but fifth is now 0.86. The 395 ratios are not as nicely spaced as in the 365 with its relatively even steps (except 5th). 1-2-3 are nicely spaced but 4th is slightly too long. No problem on the street but annoying on the track.
The NG3-065 transaxle was brought into North America in relatively large numbers in the Renault Fuego Turbo. It is a beefed up 395 with a still too short 1st and a nice 0.86 fifth. Probably the easiest to find and most robust transaxle replacement available. Richard Banks at Europa Engineering offers kits to mount and adapt the shift linkage to suit. Regardless it is not a bolt in operation and some fabrication and tweaking will be required.
I use an early 395 with 5th gear from a later 395. Makes a very good street transaxle. I made up my own cable shifter and am completely delighted with how everything works.
Europa work often takes longer than planned and, often again, more work is found that needs to also be done at the same time. If your dad is in a bad way, arrange to have a lister who is local to you take your dad for a drive.
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JB: Excellent information. I will continue to seek parts, trans' and alternatives.
The reason the car is so important (I mean THIS car) is because it was his in 1989. A friend had it, then another, now me. I had it on the road for 300 miles or so when the trans took a dump.
I'm not against trying to fit the 395. I have welders, cutters and machinists on hand. We can do anything, especially if it's been done before.
Thank you for the replies thus far. I'm still interested in what the collection of kind email sources and my trans shop come up with. Of course throwing money at a situation so it stays stock is one of the options. Not my first, but an option. The second being the 395. Anyone know if the 395 will be a perfect fit for my axles or if I need to do work?
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Helpmylotus,
Have you contacted Dave Bean Engineering in California to see if they can source parts for your 365? They did for me, but is was some year ago.
Tom
74 TCS - 4605R
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Is EVERYTHING available? There must be a point of no return.