Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: LeftAngle on Tuesday,October 09, 2012, 01:20:55 PM
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:newhere: :coolpic:
Hello Europa Forum: Here's my situation: My racing days are pretty much over, but I still love driving British sports cars. It seems I have to modify everything I own to fit my concept of function and aesthetics, so if you're a purist, you'd be advised to stop reading this thread now, as what I'm about to put down will make you, well, ill.
Anyway, my Federal S2 is about to be reborn as close to my vision of what Ron Hickman and Colin Chapman's ideas would have evolved into had the original Europa design survived. Lightness aside, I'll be reinforcing weak fiberglass areas, adding more wood, bling and sound deadening material to the interior and changing the exterior to look more 47/62-ish... Partly because of looks, but also to cover wider (much wider) tires.
I've been busy making Lotus badges on my 3D printer, the first of which went onto my newly re-covered seats. Another batch are replacing the BBS logos on the "wrong" wheels and tires I picked up for a ridiculously low price. I was planning on 15" 95.25mm pcd aluminum wheels, but couldn't turn down the offer of a set of BBS wheels off a BMW. The BBSs are 17" and 5 stud and will require an adopter with a 2" extension, but with the low aspect tires, only 1/2" is added to the radius of the original wheels and tire size.
I haven't weighed the original wheels & tires, but the new ones probably weigh twice as much. My mechanic says the additional torque won't be a problem until I upgrade the engine and the multi piston disk brakes I'll be adding will handle the additional mass OK.
That being said, and if there are still people out there who haven't stopped reading out of disgust, ( :) ) I'm hesitant to make that first cut into the body of my europa, so I'm eager for feedback from anyone who's added larger, 5 stud wheels and added flared fenders to their own Europa.
Handling or mechanical issues are my primary concern, but with the caveat that this car will eventually be competing in shows, not on a race track, so it really doesn't have to slide its rear end around a turn or hold up to a course's handful of excessive stress.
The last photo is a Photoshopped image of what the car might look like when the work is completed.
My apologies to the purists.
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:Welcome: I'm no purist, so I look forward to seeing your progress on your car. But I'm fascinated with your 3-D printer, can you elaborate on it's capabilities?
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I'll stay out the stock vs. non. But I would caution about having wheels that are to large, both height and especially width.
Look at the car from many angles. I think a 13" looks just so on a Europa. I reckon a 14" would look o.k. With flared and a well detail arched fender/s you might get away with a 15" but no more.
Not being a track car, excessive width would be questionable as the driving on the street will cause the light weight car to handle poorly and bonce around like a rubber check from Bernie Madoff.
Mike
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No apologies needed, it's your car when all said and done !
Stefan (mecky) in the Paddock section has got wider wheels and flared arches on his racing car, so if you want to get an idea of how it's done I guess he would be a good start - this is his thread and he has a website showing the mods & racing they do (link in the thread)
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=65.0 (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=65.0)
I also have a winter project in mind to try out 15" wheels with 195 & 205 tyres, but I'm staying with the same PCD and using 6" wheels so there will be no external body mods, just a front wheel arch recess to allow clearance on full lock. (if you go much above 5.5" wide, 175 tyres on the front, apparently there are clearance problems on lock) I'm also changing the wheel studs for Land Rover studs which are slightly longer and thicker than the OEM Lotus (Triumph) ones fitted as some modern wheels have bigger holes in :)
Like Joe, I'm intrigued by your 3D printer. Ok, we're usually lagging behind the bleeding edge of technology on this side of the pond so I've heard of them but have no real idea of their capabilities. What sort of items and materials can you make/use with them ? (that's worthy of a new thread if you like)
Brian
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Anyway, my Federal S2 is about to be reborn as close to my vision of what Ron Hickman and Colin Chapman's ideas would have evolved into had the original Europa design survived.
There's an argument for saying that's already been done..... and they called it "Elise" :)
(with 15 x 5.5" front, 16 x 7" rear wheels, same PCD....)
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Thanks for the input guys. I have to confess that 15" wheels better suit my sense of aesthetics, but a complete set of wheels and tires for $250 US was just too good to pass up. If it turns out that 17" rims look too out of place, I can sell them and re-boot it with 15s. The advantage I'd have doing that is the adaptors will already be in place and a tremendous choice of 5 stud wheels to choose from.
On to 3D printing. I'll start another thread as Europa TC suggests, but let me warn those who are interested that this isn't a technology that's quite ready for the home market. In 10 years it'll be as common as a microwave oven (and probably about the same size), but it is a disruptive technology, still in development, with multiple methods using multiple materials. Unless you spend $20,000 US or more, the surface isn't finished and there's a learning curve that can be frustrating. The machines that are affordable, use extruders to lay thermal plastic down in layers, building the part up in visible steps that need to be hand finished if the part is for show. Extruders are quirky machines. Even large manufacturers of extruded plastics will admit that extruding is as much of an art as it is a science. Its not uncommon to walk through an extrusion plant and see paper clips holding scrap bits of wood and wire coat hangers in front of the dies to shape the parts into their final form.
If you plan to make custom parts for your ride, You'll also need to be adept at designing with 3D CAD. That alone can take nearly a year to become proficient enough to build a decent, workable part.
That being said, my advice to everyone reading this is: Don't wait. It's the greatest technology out there for making parts that are either unavailable, or in the case of the Europa's instrument bucket and heater vents, vacuum formed as the originals were... Light as a feather, but delicate, cheesy looking and likely cracked by the time they're installed.
Here's a picture of another example: The throttle cable wasn't clearing the top of the replacement valve cover (the original had warped long ago). The bracket leading from the Webbers was mounted horizontally kinking the cable, creating a stiff peddle. I printed a quick solution that, using the same horizontal mounting, angles the cable to clear the cover. I even added a set knob so it can be easily removed... Why? Because I could. That is so cool. My machine has become an unpaid employee. I tell it what to make and then I go off and do something else while it makes it. I used to have to design and make everything myself. Now I only have to design and keep an eye on a sometimes quirky robot once in a while. It also makes things for the wife once in a while, keeping me in good graces.
btw, the cap with the Lotus logo on it is also printed.
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Though I prefer more of an original Europa, I look forward to seeing your progress!
So what is the cost (time and materials) of printing one more of something you've already done? (I do not have a need for any 3D badges... at least not that I know of.)
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I'll look forwards to the new thread. You sound as if you've been through a steep learning curve, which I guess is to be expected. To me over here, it just sounds like something out of Star Trek !
Brian
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So what is the cost (time and materials) of printing one more of something you've already done? (I do not have a need for any 3D badges... at least not that I know of.)
Tough question... Long-winded answer....
In the US, plastic costs about $65 per Kilo delivered. Depending on the size, density, scrap and false attempts, material costs can range from 25¢ to $2 for something like a badge. Because badges are to be looked at, there's a bit of finishing to do as well. The ones I made for the seats were covered in epoxy (2 coats). The wheel badges are larger, thicker and were printed with green and white ABS. A second part, in yellowABS was made and inserted like a puzzle piece for the ones in the pictures, but I've since decided it's easier and looks better if the yellow part is painted. These will also be covered in epoxy before I attach them to the wheel centers with another print that glues them in place.
The red part I made for the throttle cable is nearly hollow and one of several prototypes that will eventually become a strong, fitted component that looks like it belongs. I personally don't like the way the cable has been run in my car (through the right side of the firewall, over the box and out of the left side bottom of the plastic console on its way to the adjustable throttle mechanism). This type of component is more expensive time wise than what it cost in material. The concept works but the designed part will be changing depending on what else needs to be modified and where my mind takes the build. I know I'll be adding 1/16" aluminum diamond plate to the engine side of the firewall and possibly the same to the cockpit side with a hatchway cut through between the seats. If I do that, the opening will be surrounded by a welded aluminum frame and a 1/2" lexan hatch bolted and sealed in place. This will be done to give me easier access to the front of the engine bay and for bling, as the brightly polished and painted engine would be exposed to the occupants through the lexan hatch 8) . The part will change as wires and hoses are re-routed to accommodate and I expect the throttle cable will be covered and fitted neatly to the aluminum firewall with pop-rivets (apparently Chapman loved pop- rivets, so I'll continue the saga :) )... But I won't know until I actually do it.
Since I'm doing this for my pleasure and not a client's, I'm being very generous with my time, making choices, analyzing, re-designing, re-analyzing and so on. I'm taking Cal44's advice and attempting to make a 3D model of my Europa as it is, adding everything I think I want and looking at it from all angles. I'll do this using Autodesk's 123Catch program (free) and Trimble's Sketchup (also free) to make scale wheels, tires and flares (not as easy as I make it sound).
Anyway... If you're asking in a round-about way; no, I won't be going into part production, but I'll freely post any stl files I make for anyone who's interested or needs them. Inexpensive 3D Printers are beginning to show up all over the place and it's getting easier to find someone close to home who can print parts for a small fee or as a favor. Even schools are getting into the business, so they will be an excellent source to print parts. (kids in elementary school today will be using tools that haven't even been invented yet, so forward thinking school systems are trying to stay up with technology's exponential curve).
Next, as soon as I get the facia out, I'll be making a more rugged instrument bucket (that can be fitted from the outside) and windshield vents. I'll keep you informed via a new thread on 3D printing if it isn't too far removed from the "Lotus" concept. It seems to be an interesting idea among the people who've responded to my posts.
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It is very interesting. Thanks for the details.
Nope I did not intend to ask if you would be selling any reproduced parts. I was just curious about how much goes into the first part versus multiples.
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Those look like Compomotive wheels. I have similar ones except that mine have gold center sections. They have center sections for just about any bolt pattern or even knock-offs. If you got wheels with 5 bolt centers, you may have trouble getting them to fit. If you can find 4 to 5 bolt adapters, you may have problems with the offset. As you suggest 17" may be a bit tall. My wheels are 15" and they look just fine.
Hopefully the picture I attached will come out.
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Your car looks great. My wheels are BBS RS198s with a 5 stud pattern of 120pcd. These wheels look great on a BMW, but as you say, they may be a bit too large on an Europa, but I won't know until I see them in place (as soon as I replace the outer rim of the dinged one that allowed me to buy the entire set for $250). I'm expecting that to cost in the neighborhood of $200, so for under $500 US, I'll have a great set of wheels and relatively new tires. The way I see it is the most difficult issue with the Europa's 4 stud bolt pattern is their circle diameter (pcd) which is 95.25mm. Very few wheel choices are available for that size and pattern in the US and from what I've seen, the prices aren't consistent with other, more common sizes.
Airbagit.com out of Mesa AZ can make the proper size adaptors for me and if you've ever watched those TV shows where they draw up concepts and then build the cars to match the drawings, you know that the finished vehicle rarely looks the same as the 2 dimensional drawing or photo. Sometimes the real car looks better and sometimes it looks worse.
We're only looking at wheel size here, not the rolling radius, which is only 1/2" larger, so it's all about the looks.
I'll have to see the real thing before I can make an intelligent decision. I doubt that it'll be more expensive to do it the way I want since a Craigslist ad will allow me to sell the wheels for more than what I paid, plus 5 stud adaptors will give me MANY more choices in the 15" range.
Of course, it's all moot until I gather up the courage to take a saw to those wheel openings. :-\
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If anyone is thinking about cutting away portions of their body, this is how I went about radius-ing my rear wheel wells. I went to Lowes (here in the states) and picked up a can of black "Plasti-Dip", a spray-on rubber used to cover tool handles. It can be sprayed onto the area you're thinking of removing and peeled away without damaging the paint if you want to make changes.
I roughly marked the radius of my opening using a string and a dry-erase marker (also removable) and taped around the line. I covered the wheel with a large trash bag and sprayed Plasti-Dip onto the area I was planning on cutting.
This allowed me to step back and analyze the situation. In my case, I felt the height of the opening needed to be reduced, so I carefully scored (not all the way through) the Plasti-Dip around the new line, peeled the unwanted part away and analyzed the result again.
This allowed me to be certain I was cutting the correct arc without worrying how it was going to look afterward.
Pictures:
1. Plasti-Dipped arc (before I modified it)
2. Final cut, with new wheel in place (car's still on jack so wheel is down a bit)
3. How far the flare will need to come out
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Hi LeftAngle
Here is an Europa from the Swedish Modsport series with 18" inch rear wheels, maybe some insperation for your flares... ;)
They are Front: 24/61-17 and Rear 27/65-18.
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You can see more here:
http://http://www.modsport.se/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=29&cntnt01origid=66&cntnt01detailtemplate=Nyhetsvisning&cntnt01returnid=67 (http://www.modsport.se/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=29&cntnt01origid=66&cntnt01detailtemplate=Nyhetsvisning&cntnt01returnid=67)
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What a great shot, now that would look like a winner just standing still !
Brian
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Hey Jannik:
I've attempted to reply to this thread several times, but so far, no luck. I wanted to thank you for that information... It's helped me focus in on what the car may end up looking like. I'm looking for foam that I can use to fashion the sides. I won'd do the fiberglassing, but I'll form the molds so I'll be sure to end up with what I want.
Thanks again... I've kept it short... Hope it posts.
Yay.. It posted, but I hadn't noticed my original posted as well. I accidentally erased it. In it, I mentioned I needed to clean my garage and posted a photo of the mess. Here it is again:
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After setting the rear wheels in place, I'm kind of in agreement with Mike in that 17" is too large on an S2 Europa. That being said, I had painted the outer rim of the wheels I'm using because the woman who had them, evidently parked by "feel" and liked her BMW as close to the curb as possible. The paint covered the dings and gouges, but didn't do anything for the aesthetics.
Today, I decided to try another tactic. The spare tire in my Lotus was original, and when I pulled it out to work on the front end, I realized, under all the crud, was a white wall. Whitewall tires of the 1960s and 70s were popular, but they were "narrow", as opposed to the wide whitewalls of the 1950s. The spare's was not much more than 1/4" wide...
Hmm, I thought. I pulled the new tire out, removed the white and taped up the first step in the 17" wheel. I painted it black (Dip-It) and left the edge of the rim, which is about 1/4" wide exposed.
I know I'll have to have the wheels polished now, but what I've accomplished is to visually turn the 17" wheel into a 15" wheel and added a "Chrome" wall to my tire.
The one on the left is the wide whitewall and the one on the right is the narrow Chromewall. What's the verdict amongst ya'll?
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Ok, you probably won't like what I'm about to write but you did ask for opinions.....
If you've decided that 17" doesn't look right, then a bit of paint isn't going to change your basic unease with the wheel size no matter how cleverly it's applied. Add in the fact you're going to need adapters to fit a 5 stud wheel to a 4 stud hub and the costs are rising. Which is fine if you like the end result, but I'm sensing you're hesitant ?
Without wishing to hijack the thread, one of my winter projects is to fit 15x6" wheels to my car as an alternative to the 13x5" Cosmics, but I want to be able to run either wheel set as I think for our village show I'll take it looking "period" with the Cosmics. So far I've replaced the wheel studs with 12mm ones and test fitted a 15x6" wheels front & rear with 195 & 205 tyres. The diameters are fractionally smaller at the front but the extra 1" width hits the wheel arch on full lock and needs a recess molding in both arches. (hence a winter project)
I think if I were you and still wanting to check out these wheels, I'd knock out enough wheel studs to allow you to "bolt" the wheels in place front & rear and see exactly what sort of clearances you'll end up with. It should be ok to drop the car's weight on them even if you've only got a single stud holding the wheels in place and then you'll have a much better idea of the end result and if it's worth pursuing. I used photoshop on my car with several wheel patterns but you've got the wheels and can't beat real life !
Brian
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Hi Brian:
I "do" like what you have to say and the only thing about the wheel size I'm hesitant about is the aesthetics. My wife loves the look, but I'm wondering if they may be a bit too "in your face". I'm sorry I don't have the wheel mounted to show you. The black strip is Dip-It, a rubber compound that matches the texture of the tire and if I have the wheel's lip highly polished, it will certainly be unique.
The car will be for show and the trend has been moving consistently toward larger wheels, so by the time the car i ready, it may not be an issue. Oversized wheels I thought looked ridiculous a few years ago, look pretty good to me now, so time will tell.
The rear wheel adaptors are installed, but the car's on jacks in the garage so the wheel hangs a bit, but here's shots with each of the options installed . I'm cleaning and painting the engine compartment, glassing the side vents and shaping the body at the moment, so pardon the mess.
As on yours, it's the fronts that will be tricky. Adaptors won't work because the center of the wheel needs to be as close to the rotational centerline as possible. And unless someone can identify a compatible hub for me, I'll be having one milled from 7075T6 aluminum. That'll be expensive, but the wheels and 4 tires cost me well under $500, so I'll still be ahead.
I'll need to get smaller front tires and, it looks like I'll have to get the wheels polished, so I may not end up with a bargain, but 5 studs will allow me to add larger brakes, have a larger selection of (and less expensive) future wheel options and set my mind at ease... Having lost a right front wheel from a 4 stud Triumph has made me a believer in overkill.
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Hi again.
I dont think you need to get a complete blank hub milled, you can already buy undrilled hubs over here and put in whatever studs you want to. I have no affiliation with this dealer, but it will give you an idea of what's available.
http://www.canleyclassics.com/?xhtml=xhtml/product/alloyhubs.html&xsl=product.xsl (http://www.canleyclassics.com/?xhtml=xhtml/product/alloyhubs.html&xsl=product.xsl)
I fitted alloy hubs like this to a Marcos I once owned because the rear axle had Ford spacing and the front Triumph and I wanted to get all 4 the same, hence I bought some alloy hubs with Ford PCD's.
I appreciate the wheel is on full droop, but boy does it look big ! I think I recall you saying the overall diameter was the same, what is it out of interest ? My 15" wheels with 205 tyres came in at around 22" IIRC, which is roughly the same as the OEM 13"x185/70's ? (a highly technical comparison, I stood them alongside each other on the garage floor and put a spirit level across them ! )
Brian
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Hey, again... :)
You recall the stock overall dimension correctly. I, on the other hand, had initially measured the new wheels and tire diameter as 1" larger, when in fact, after everything's been removed and I can get an accurate measurement, they're 1.5" larger (23.5"). I suspect I'll end up replacing these with 15s, but for now, to keep the wife sub-nuclear, I'll continue fitting the BBS wheels, build the body work around them closer and deal with replacements later:)
Thank you for the link to Canley Classics. I've been trying to find something every time I sit down in front of the computer. I'll check them out and keep the forum informed of what I find out.
Bruce
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I suspect I'll end up replacing these with 15s, but for now, to keep the wife sub-nuclear, I'll continue fitting the BBS wheels, build the body work around them closer and deal with replacements later:)
:)
I suspect I'll have a similar problem with my proposed MGF wheels. They're "ok" and I could live with them but if I decide 15" is a long term option then I reckon I'd prefer 15" minilites or Cosmics to retain a period look to the car but still get the benefit from modern rubber.
But.... like you, these wheels cost me £120 for 4 wheels plus tyres, two of which were new so it really was a no-brainer. To get 4 new wheels and tyres would have been well north of £600, which is too much of a gamble when I might not like how they ride with the Lotus suspension. And like you, if I swop later I can always sell the first set of wheels and get back what I paid.
But that's "man-maths" and not something the ladies understand...... ;)
As far as alloy hubs go, they were very popular here a few years ago when the majority of kit cars used Triumph front suspension and people wanted to get the same PCD all round. The other place you could try is someone like Richard at Europa Engineering because his cars are definitely modifications of the Europa theme and it wouldn't surprise me to hear that he's fitted 5 stud wheels in the past - look at this one he had as a racer.....
Brian
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If I had the money, I'd be negotiating for this RHD car >http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C304732<, but... Alas, I have to make do with the one I've got. When it was first listed, I considered it, but I did the $ conversion, & reality kicked in:) Chances are, I'll spend all of what it cost on mine, but it'll be spread out so the pain can be amortized:).
I sent Canley an email to find out if they can sell me an un-drilled hub >http://www.canleyclassics.com/?xhtml=xhtml/product/alloyhubs.html&xsl=product.xsl<.
They have an entire alloy brake setup for a Spitfire GT6 >http://www.canleyclassics.com/?xhtml=xhtml/product/4potbrakes.html&xsl=product.xsl< which, IIRC, fits the S2 . Along with their stainless dust shield, this would be an almost complete and perfect setup for the front... IF I can get that blank hub.
There's also an adjustable upper wishbone that may or may not fit... Almost one-stop-shopping! Thanks again for that link. I was up all night going through it instead of working on the car.
Off-topic, but the Spitfire isn't as popular over here as the TR4s & 6s. I had two 1500s up until 1969. One to drive and one for spares. I loved that car. Thanks again Brian.
Bruce
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Hi again Bruce,
That brake kit looks good considering what you get, although I'm not convinced the Europa front brakes are a weak point. But the fact that something isn't essential has never stopped me from buying new sparkly toys before :)
Be wary of buying suspension parts though, the Europa is oddball and I think I'd stick to the usual suspects for stuff like that. I have Spyder Engineering's front tubular wishbones and adjustable lower rear links on my car which were expensive at the time (1990s) but have been well worth the money.
Brian
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Hey Brian:
Thanks for that heads up. It's been a while since I've messed around with cars. After college, the interest was in sailing, skiing... And one more word starting with "s"... I think it was... Ya, that's it... Sleeping. :)
The new wheels and tires are 15 lbs heavier than stock, so I think upgrading the brakes may be a good idea. The original discs had to fit inside 13" rims and I'll bet the Lotus engineers saw that as a limitation. Eventually, I'd like to put discs on all 4 corners, so until then, the drums will have to take up any slack. Thanks again for dropping Spyder Engineering's name.
I'll have to get an updated list of compatible parts and sources.
Bruce
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You can also get alloy hubs from merlin motorsport, they sell them in various PCDs and also undrilled.
http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/ALLOY-HUBS-&-BEARINGS-Alloy-Hubs/c415_416/index.html
Serge
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Thanks Serge:
You know... It may be easier if I just moved to the UK for a year:)