Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Cheguava on Friday,April 26, 2024, 12:34:28 PM
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Starting with the restoration of my currently derelict, originally Pistachio / Lime Green TC, now the last but 1 owner, who had it from 1980-2004 had visited to see it and offer advice. Also spoke to the owner from 2004-2024, who bought it, then bought an American TCS and left this one under a sheet for 20 years, which explains why mine how has Federal rear light units at least.
Fair to say the first bits of stripping down have had more down than upsides. I'll either need complete UK light units or UK lenses and modify the units to suit them. Side repeaters are knacked and won't come out (Dr Dremel is going to visit them) and the alternator is seized, which is understandable, but I can't see a reference to it online - Delco DN460? **EDIT** Have now found the DN460, also fitted to TR6 and some Spitfires, at £300+ will work on freeing mine first.
There was good news though. The football sized wasp nest in the rear corner had been abandoned by its occupants. Yay! Off for a few days while I plan the campaign to strip and separate the body from the chassis, using the fine guide on this site. Will post progress, forwards and backwards, on this thread.
Does anyone know what type of ignition key would be required for a 71 TC? There's a number inside the lock but I'm unsure of the key type, it's a Waso lock but I can't narrow it down further.
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Congratulations on your first step in you journey!! I'm really glad the wasps (hornets?) left before you took delivery!
Our own My S1 found a place to buy keys in the UK, https://www.keytrader.co.uk/. I don't know if they know which blanks you need but you can give them a call. The usual suspects in the UK probably sell key blanks too (SJ Sports Cars, Kelvedon Lotus, Lotus Supplies, etc.). The Lotus archivist may be able to find which number keys your car used and Lotus might be able to help with the particular key numbers (to reproduce your original keys). Here's his address: AGraham at lotuscars dot com.
Good luck!
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Thanks BDA. I've already contacted Andy at Lotus to pass him the car's details for their register, worth asking the question about key numbers, but I'll wait until I get the door locks out as I understand those numbers are possibly on the barrels.
Cheers, Jeff
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alternator is seized, which is understandable, but I can't see a reference to it online - Delco DN460? **EDIT** Have now found the DN460, also fitted to TR6 and some Spitfires, at £300+ will work on freeing mine first.
I can't help on the keys but maybe on the alternator. IIRC some folks have had their originals overhauled so that is one option. I decided not to and when mine failed I simply fitted a Lucas 17ACR instead and modified the wiring. That's a very tight fit but the 16ACR is slightly smaller and in hindsight would have been the better option. The 17ACR lasted for a while until I saw a more modern Lucas A127 for £55 on Ebay so I got one of those to replace the 17ACR. The A127 is a very good fit for the car and comes in several outputs, some of which are probably too great for the car's wiring should you ever achieve the maximum charge rate.
This is how it went together;
http://www.martley.plus.com/lotusland2016/europa/16europa03.html (http://www.martley.plus.com/lotusland2016/europa/16europa03.html)
(it's a very old and quaint website, but it's about the details not the coding !)
Brian
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Hi Brian, that is really helpful info on the alternator - I'm spoilt for choice now!
Thanks for the link to your website, which is fantastic - no idea what you mean about Yorkshire Pennine weather though. :)) Many happy hours of reading ahead - looks like you've done all the stuff I'm going to have to go through. Massive help.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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..... some of which are probably too great for the car's wiring should you ever achieve the maximum charge rate.
That's something I've wondered about.
I don't know the gauge or amps rating of the 'big' brown wire, but is it much different to normal cars running a 70 amp alternator?
At a glance, it doesn't seem so but I'm no expert.
Enquiring minds and all that...
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That's something I've wondered about.
I don't know the gauge or amps rating of the 'big' brown wire, but is it much different to normal cars running a 70 amp alternator?
At a glance, it doesn't seem so but I'm no expert.
Enquiring minds and all that...
When I fitted the A127 it comes in several ratings (55/65/70/?? IIRC), the higher ones don't use the spade terminal plug but are stud connections with, from the photos I saw, fairly chunky wiring. There are plenty of cable guides on the internet but most of them stopped at 50amps. I did find one supplier that gave a 70amp rating and that was massive, almost 8mm and I don't think I've ever seen that in a car before.
https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/p/standard-cable (https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/p/standard-cable)
To be honest it's mostly above my head. I could never grasp electronics, if I can't see it, touch it or hit it, then it's black magic. After reading about wire lengths/diameters/voltage drops I guessed the big problems were voltage drops or the wire getting overheated. With the ammeter in the dash and what's probably a longer cable run than most cars I figured Lotus had probably sized their cable on a 30amp rating (5mm on that chart). But as I'd never seen anywhere near 30amps before I just put the A127 in and watched the ammeter. It works and after running for what's now several years (2016) there's no visible problems on the brown wires, so technically correct or not, it seems to work ok.
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I would not run 70 amps through the stock wiring and amp gauge. If you go 70 amps, bin the ammeter and just join all its wires together (not the wires for the bulb), fit a voltmeter, and run a short, fat wire from the alt to the battery.
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Having just finished re-wiring, I have few comments.
If you want a historically correct restoration ignore the rest of this post and just repair what you have.
I wanted to take advantage of modern technology in any way that did not change the character and general look of the car.
On my 70 S2 some wire was internally damaged and over 50% of the connections were corroded or failed. I removed the amp meter (not really necessary if you sort out the electrical system, I replaced it with an air / fuel meter and added an idiot light). Also remove the high current coil wire that runs through the tach (there are several posts, on this site, on how to do this. It dramatically reduces the electrical noise in the car allowing a radio to work properly).
I sized my wire by using the length and resistance of the wire (many tables on line) to find the wire gauge that results in .5V of voltage drop at max current. Voltage drop = Max Current X Total Resistance. Total resistance includes the wire to the battery, wire to ground, and any switches or connections on the way. A good clean flat connector or switch will be less than .05 ohms. Good solder connections are 0 ohms.
If you remove the ammeter the only high current connections / lines go to the radiator fan, cabin fan, headlights and starter. I added relays to front area so the cabin switches just turn on the relays.
I replaced the alternator with a mini-denso 70A ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/151571437369. ) .Smaller, lighter, more current, internally regulated. Some fab for the mounting is needed. Link to dimensions https://www.amazon.com/DENSO-EXCITING-ALTERNATOR-MOUNT-1-WIRE/dp/B00DMS4YIG.
But ..... I have heard you can simply buy a new wiring harness and move on.
Ron
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Agree, Brian, I guess the potential danger of a high output alternator might be a situation where the battery is low or defective and the alt decides to pump 50/70 amps up that wire and through the dash for five or ten minutes straight.
Noted, JB. I've related my experience previously - my car came with a cheap & cheerful ammeter with an offensive red needle so I purchased a new Smiths 30/30 unit (couldn't find a Lucas one).
Much later, I noticed the new ammeter 'can' had deformed & partially caved in, although it was still working. The can was plastic and looked to have suffered a heat event. Wiring connections checked out OK so it might have been an internal connection issue. All this happened out of the blue.
Thanks for the info and links, Ron. Those mini-Denso style alternators seem to be the popular choice.
My original wiring harness was in pretty decent shape so perhaps a fat wire for the alternator and a voltmeter is the direction I should be headed.
Apologies for the hijack, Cheguava.
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Hi
Great to see you are making progress with the car. I am sure it will have plenty of secrets to give up, as will mine 3940R. We are both starting at the same time and pretty much from the same point.
All the best
Berni
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Cracked on with the strip down today - not *entirely* plain sailing tbh. With the car having sat for 20 years, every metal part in the front end was rusted, and not much looks to be salvageable. The bumper bolts were a particular pain, but luckily there was just room to get a junior hacksaw in the gap between bumper and bolt dome, and cut them off without damaging the bumper, which will need rechroming, but at least it's straight and undamaged.
Thanks for all the encouragement and info - this is a fantastic knowledge source and I'm finding out so much that's of help in this restoration.
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Looking at those photos, I can see what you're going to be doing this Bank Holiday. I think my tools of choice there would be angle grinder, dremel and nut splitters.... :)
Depending on whether you want an original restoration or a car which looks outwardly original but has more modern components, you could consider newer alternatives for some of those rusty bits. If you scan around this forum you'll see that a lot of owners modify their Europa, probably more so than the 60s Elan owners, and even then most changes are reversible should these cars ever get to Ferrari prices.
Some things are worth doing anyway, for example the fans in the front for the radiator and blower for the front plenum chamber were never that wonderful and you could fit modern replacements making them more efficient as well as saving time/money on restoring the old ones. Another example, I replaced the rusty steel grille in the wheel arch with a polypropylene one and it's still there 30+ yrs later !
Brian
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Brian, you are absolutely spot on. Cut and remove will be the order of the day. I'm not set on originality at all cost, particularly on the blower set up which appears bizarre, and presumably loses effectiveness if you should use the plenum chamber for storage on a trip? I'll be combing through the site looking for alternatives. One version I saw on a car currently for sale intrigued me - looks very tidy but presumably very little air would make its way to the vents at either end of the dash... Plenty of time to consider options though.
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That would work for the heater but you won’t get any ventilation from your eyeball vents.
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As BDA says, that example would clear the screen but you'd only get warm air and nothing from the side vents.
And those side vents are very good when you're on the move, with the windows up you'll get a nice flow of cold air on your face without using the blower, it's one of the best designs on the cars. In fact I reckon it's better than a lot of more recent cars, with the Europa it's very easy to get warm air on your feet and cold on the face.
Personally I'd avoid anything which reduces space in the front plenum. We've used our car to go away in and always ended up with stuff in the front and rear compartments.
As for the blower motor, I fitted a Honda PS125 motorbike radiator fan. It's 12v, far less bulky than the OEM Lotus one and was as cheap as chips.
Brian
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Thanks BDA and Brian - I did wonder if that tube would stop air getting to the dash vents. Thanks for the tip about motorcycle fans too, eBay is awash with them at reasonable prices, so looks like a plan for the rebuild.
Made more progress today, deployed the angry spanner on some of the nuts and bolts that would not undo and removed the radiator, air horns, blower, and (just using a socket!) the chin spoiler. Having to jack up the car and remove the n/s front wheel to attack the air horn fixings revealed just how much is going to need doing once I get to the Meccano phase, but I also noticed how much the light shines through the body tub, like a magic lantern. Is this standard added lightness, or has some coating fallen off?
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That looks pretty bad!!! I can see you have your work cut out for you!
Don't be alarmed by the light shining through your fiberglass. It just means that the paint has come off one or the other (or both) sides of the fiberglass there.
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If you aren’t patient now, you will be! The majority of the parts on my TCST project have been a challenge to get off and/or apart…..thankfully they are simple cars 8)
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That looks pretty bad!!! I can see you have your work cut out for you!
Don't be alarmed by the light shining through your fiberglass. It just means that the paint has come off one or the other (or both) sides of the fiberglass there.
Yeah - I knew that it was going to need work to the front of the chassis, and not having been on the road for 20 years, would need a lot replacing, and that's absolutely the case.
Thanks for confirming about the fibreglass, that's going in the "good news" category! Looks like I'll need some suitable stonechip that will adhere to fibreglass.
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On the TCs and TCSs there was a stone guard (a piece of screen) bonded under the front fender above the tire. The S1s and S2s didn’t seem to have them. Other than those, I don’t think you need much else. I’ve heard of some using pickup truck bed liner in places like under fenders and it can protect the fiberglass from stones.
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As I understand it, that under fender stone guard is a fiberboard like the door sill closing plates. But my TCS didn’t have it, due to incomplete repairs in the past. So I’m open to being convinced. The truck bed liner approach also sounds good.
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I think you’re right about the fiberboard. That’s more in line with Lotus practice than screen.
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I’ve heard of some using pickup truck bed liner in places like under fenders and it can protect the fiberglass from stones.
Sounds like a plan, should be pretty tough. Been out today but did a bit more this evening - front end cleared so inside now. I'd forgotten what an emotional rollercoaster restoration is. Getting the passenger seat out was the usual mix - sill side nuts just turning underneath, and couldn't see the bolt heads, but then realised the seat runners had disintegrated and not holding it. Front inside came off - nyloc nut! :trophy: Rear inside just twisted though, and had to grind it off. Seat frame looks of, but now need a set of runners.
More daft questions - whilst lying on the floor to get at the seat fixings, I noticed a hole below the passenger door - no idea what it's doing there or why anyone made it - can't see what it would access. And there was a plaque riveted to the n/s sill at some stage, any ideas what was there?
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That hole under the door looks like the access tot he door hinge pin. Looking up it, does it align with the hinge bobbins in the body?
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That hole under the door looks like the access tot he door hinge pin. Looking up it, does it align with the hinge bobbins in the body?
Good shout - there's a "matching" but tidier hole on the driver's side, and I can feel the bottom of the hinge through the hole.
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Yep, looks like the access hole to remove the door pin (now there's a job to look forward to :) )
If you get underneath & look up you should see the bottom of the 1/2" steel door pin. This is threaded (1/4" ?) which you can make up a slide hammer arrangement to pull it down/out with the car in the air. In practice, if this is the first time around then it's more than likely rusted solid, release fluid might get it loose but be prepared to cut it away or get mole grips from inside the door to get it started.
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Thanks again Brian - a job that will be coming up in the next month or two as I need to deliver it to the sprayers with doors removed - they were particular about that - it's almost like they knew! ;D
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The ends of the hinge pins are tapped in 5/16 coarse IIRC. That should help when you are ready to take them out.
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5/16" UNF, I thought?
Anyway, no matter . . . if the front hub pic is an indication of general condition, save yourself some time, aggravation and possible damage to the bobbins or the fibreglass it's mounted in.
Use a hacksaw blade or a reciprocating saw to cut them out.
Much better to sacrifice a couple of pieces of cheap 1/2" steel rod than risking some of the potential down sides, I reckon.
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Thanks to all for the input on the door pins. I suspect it'll end up as a hacksaw job, given the way everything else not made of fibreglass seems to have fared...
Worked on with the stripdown this afternoon, another session of mixed progress. :-X N/s door is now stripped of its door card, internal door locking mechanism, striker and electric winder motor. Drilled out the various rivets, and dug out the mastic round the frame, which is now loose as far as the quarterlight glass, which is not feeling like it wants to move. Am I missing something here? Do I need to winkle out the rubber seal round the glass? Don't want to break anything, so have left it overnight to read up on.
The electric window winder wouldn't work when I tested it, but you could hear the motor trying both ways. Will separate the motor and mechanism tomorrow and hopefully it's just the mechanism gunged or rusted up, and will free off.
Removed the remains of the seat runner fixings, carpet and underlay/sound deadening, and looked at the seat belt. The buckle mount was not even fixed in, sill mount for the belt will not unfasten so far - I fear the problems that EuropaTC (Brian) had with the strengthening plate may be a problem for me too. Will have a look from the wheelarch, where I will also have to retrieve the door catch that fell into the void!
Finally removed the centre console, which as you can see has had a tough life. plan is to strip it back, fibreglass it up to put the strength back in it, and re-cover it. However, if I delete the ashtray then I can put a screen or phone mount in the space freed up, as a nod to the 21st century.
Sorry if this sounds a bit whingy - I can't afford a Lotus and a therapist. ;D Back to it tomorrow.
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There is a very little fastener on the bottom edge of the triangular frame. It might be a rivet. But I used a #2 machine screw and nut when putting it back together. I think its in the front corner. But it's been a while.
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It could be hiding under the rubber surround for the glass.
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There is a very little fastener on the bottom edge of the triangular frame. It might be a rivet. But I used a #2 machine screw and nut when putting it back together. I think its in the front corner. But it's been a while.
Pretty sure I got that one, had a tiny cross-head screw in it which turned but wouldn't screw out, so dremelled the head off it. Wondering if someone has bonded the quarterlight frame to the door frame. Will have another look tomorrow when my patience is replenished and I don't try and rip it off.
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Yes, that's the one. I dremelled off the heads of the originals, too. For mine, the quarter light frame was gooped with the same mastic as the movable window frame.
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Yes, that's the one. I dremelled off the heads of the originals, too. For mine, the quarter light frame was gooped with the same mastic as the movable window frame.
That's useful to know, I think that must be what's holding mine in - will try and run a Stanley knife between the quarterlight and door frame tomorrow.
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Deffo the right decision to sleep and try again in the morning. Managed to ease out the vertical rubber for the quarterlight, and get the glass and then the other two rubbers out. Still couldn't budge the frame, but removal of the quarterlight rubbers revealed a rivet that someone had put through the door frame into the side of the metal channel. Drilled that out and the frame came out.
More progress, the electric window mechanism got cleaned up and moves up and down through its full range, not massively quickly so might still need to check the motor gears and bearing to see if they need fresh grease, but most definitely calling that a win
Finally, the inevitable daft question. There is a crack in the front lip of the "bonnet" surround, as shown in the photo, which needs repairing and probably a bit of lightening subtraction by building the fibreglass up a little behind it. Can I just check that there's nothing missing here - it's just the shape of the fibreglass supporting the panel?
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That’s the bonnet itself? I had to do that repair also. Yes, it’s just that skirt that stiffens the front edge. Make sure when you reattach the hinge bolts that there is some clearance, or slop in the joints so they don’t pull the bonnet corners out. The parts book calls for a nylon(?) washer between the body and bonnet corners that might help keep the clearance right. A bit of a pain to install.
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That’s the bonnet itself? I had to do that repair also. Yes, it’s just that skirt that stiffens the front edge. Make sure when you reattach the hinge bolts that there is some clearance, or slop in the joints so they don’t pull the bonnet corners out. The parts book calls for a nylon(?) washer between the body and bonnet corners that might help keep the clearance right. A bit of a pain to install.
Hi, sorry I probably misdirected you - it's the panel in front of the bonnet behind where the badge is mounted. Similar repair I'd guess.
Thanks for the tip on reassembly - already having nightmares about reassembling this after it's had a professional respray - rolls and rolls of low tack masking tape going to be involved I think, plus domestic lifting assistance. :D
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Sorry if this sounds a bit whingy - I can't afford a Lotus and a therapist.
That's why we're here. ;)
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More progress, the electric window mechanism got cleaned up and moves up and down through its full range, not massively quickly so might still need to check the motor gears and bearing to see if they need fresh grease, but most definitely calling that a win
Ok, I know you're a fair way away from putting the motors back into the doors but when you do, consider fitting relays with a heavy gauge feed to operate the motors. I did that, two small relays (up/down) and it made a phenomenal difference to the speed they operate. Heck, they're like a normal car now ! The bonus is that you're also taking the motor current away from the switches so in theory they should last forever now.
Brian
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I also noticed a minor detail that affected my motors' speed. At the end of the swing arm that raises/lowers the window is a small plastic wheel. The bearing of mine was absolutely caked with dried grease. It took a while to flush out the 50 year old grease. But, re-greased, it now it rolls easily and provides just that little bit less friction in the window mechanism.
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EuropaTC’s relay idea is great (and one day I’ll get around to implementing it on my car!) and combining that with a more modern window lift motor might be even better! (https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=971.msg7591#msg7591)
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Ok, I know you're a fair way away from putting the motors back into the doors but when you do, consider fitting relays with a heavy gauge feed to operate the motors. I did that, two small relays (up/down) and it made a phenomenal difference to the speed they operate. Heck, they're like a normal car now ! The bonus is that you're also taking the motor current away from the switches so in theory they should last forever now.
Brian
That's another very good shout, and pre-empted a question that was already forming in my mind. I was testing the winding mechanism using a 6A battery charger I had, and the current being drawn was in excess of 6A, reinforced by the charger cutting out after half a dozen cycles (oops). So I was wondering just how much current was being drawn, albeit for "only" 10-20 seconds - probably a bit much more than the wiring enjoys. Was already going to add relays to the headlights, looks like another good candidate.
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I also noticed a minor detail that affected my motors' speed. At the end of the swing arm that raises/lowers the window is a small plastic wheel. The bearing of mine was absolutely caked with dried grease. It took a while to flush out the 50 year old grease. But, re-greased, it now it rolls easily and provides just that little bit less friction in the window mechanism.
Thanks - I'll check that out too. Every little helps!
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Thanks to all for the input on the door pins. I suspect it'll end up as a hacksaw job, given the way everything else not made of fibreglass seems to have fared...
Worked on with the stripdown this afternoon, another session of mixed progress. :-X N/s door is now stripped of its door card, internal door locking mechanism, striker and electric winder motor. Drilled out the various rivets, and dug out the mastic round the frame, which is now loose as far as the quarterlight glass, which is not feeling like it wants to move. Am I missing something here? Do I need to winkle out the rubber seal round the glass? Don't want to break anything, so have left it overnight to read up on.
The electric window winder wouldn't work when I tested it, but you could hear the motor trying both ways. Will separate the motor and mechanism tomorrow and hopefully it's just the mechanism gunged or rusted up, and will free off.
Removed the remains of the seat runner fixings, carpet and underlay/sound deadening, and looked at the seat belt. The buckle mount was not even fixed in, sill mount for the belt will not unfasten so far - I fear the problems that EuropaTC (Brian) had with the strengthening plate may be a problem for me too. Will have a look from the wheelarch, where I will also have to retrieve the door catch that fell into the void!
Finally removed the centre console, which as you can see has had a tough life. plan is to strip it back, fibreglass it up to put the strength back in it, and re-cover it. However, if I delete the ashtray then I can put a screen or phone mount in the space freed up, as a nod to the 21st century.
Sorry if this sounds a bit whingy - I can't afford a Lotus and a therapist. ;D Back to it tomorrow.
I first want to say making a mold of the console is pretty easy. I did what your suggesting with a much less complete donor. I elimated the ashtray and added A/C vents.
Then you mentioned ,"stripdown", ...I hope not with chemical strippers to remove paint. fingers crossed.
dakazman
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I first want to say making a mold of the console is pretty easy. I did what your suggesting with a much less complete donor. I elimated the ashtray and added A/C vents.
Then you mentioned ,"stripdown", ...I hope not with chemical strippers to remove paint. fingers crossed.
dakazman
Hi, thanks for the suggestion. I think that it would be easier to repair what I have than make a mold and duplicate it, particularly as I will then cover the console and my repairs with vinyl. Have you got a pic of your modified console? If it's already on here I can search for it.
No fears of using chemicals - the stripdown referred to the removal of all parts from the shell. Then I've got to rub it down as best as I can before handing it to the bodyshop, for its return to gleaming L13.
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I first want to say making a mold of the console is pretty easy. I did what your suggesting with a much less complete donor. I elimated the ashtray and added A/C vents.
Then you mentioned ,"stripdown", ...I hope not with chemical strippers to remove paint. fingers crossed.
dakazman
Hi, thanks for the suggestion. I think that it would be easier to repair what I have than make a mold and duplicate it, particularly as I will then cover the console and my repairs with vinyl. Have you got a pic of your modified console? If it's already on here I can search for it.
No fears of using chemicals - the stripdown referred to the removal of all parts from the shell. Then I've got to rub it down as best as I can before handing it to the bodyshop, for its return to gleaming L13.
Repairing with fiberglass won't work. I've seen that a few times...the patch just peels off. The console is ABS plastic, which is a PITA to repair, and requires adhesives specifically made for ABS. There are various glues you can get at the big box hardware stores which will work...look in the plumbing supply aisle where you will find them. You WILL have to cover the faces after you put all the pieces back together/fix cracks/etc. but covering it after fixing is probably the best course of action (unless you come upon an unmolested/cracked example...I just gave away my last solid console a couple weeks ago from my stash.)
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Repairing with fiberglass won't work. I've seen that a few times...the patch just peels off. The console is ABS plastic, which is a PITA to repair, and requires adhesives specifically made for ABS. There are various glues you can get at the big box hardware stores which will work...look in the plumbing supply aisle where you will find them. You WILL have to cover the faces after you put all the pieces back together/fix cracks/etc. but covering it after fixing is probably the best course of action (unless you come upon an unmolested/cracked example...I just gave away my last solid console a couple weeks ago from my stash.)
Thanks for this Bryan - I had just assumed it was fibreglass when the complete absence of fibres in it should have alerted me different. D'oh! I'll look out for suitable adhesive - info very much appreciated.
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Stripping out of the interior continues, but it was too hot to work in the garage today, so spent some time cleaning up the passenger seat to see how it would come up. Still needs another clean or two, and the foam and backing boards on the seat bases and possibly the back need replacing, but I think the cover is savable.
The problem I have is that the driver's seat has some damage to the bolster, and the seat back cushion. And although Martrim in the UK seem to sell the basketweave vinyl, it doesn't have the "ribs" which seem to be melted in, which gives me a dilemma. Do I try and replicate the ribs using heat application, or does anyone know if the right material is available elsewhere? Or do I recover both seats, which would be a shame - I'm assuming that the vinyl is original? I really want to get the seats "right" if I can, they're as 70's as an orange Spangle!
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Hi
That seat looks really rather good. I wonder if it has had some work done to it in the past? I'm no expert, but the backrest section is one piece, and it looks like the top section may have had work. I wish mine were in such good condition. I am looking for someone in the South East to do mine so if anyone knows someone reasonable please chip in. I know people sometimes go to sofa makers for this type of work, but I'm not sure that would be a great idea.
All the best
Berni
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Hi Berni, I'm not sure if my seats have had work or not. I found another K reg Twin Cam that an auctioneer was selling as having original seats (pinch of salt and all that) which also has a 2 piece rear cushion, with the same pattern, when I was looking for seat covers. Factory variant? Same aftermarket repairer? Could be either, tbf.
There's a local upholsterer to me who does motorbike seats etc - if I can't find suitable covers I think I'll get some of the basketweave vinyl and see if he fancies a go.
Cheers,
Jeff
https://hofmanns.co.uk/sold-car/lotus-europa-twin-cam/
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You can get new upholstery covers from Lotus Supplies in the UK. I bought them about a year ago... took a couple of months to get them, as they have several options and they're not in stock. They have to be made. 153 GBP each. They look well fabricated, but I haven't installed them yet.
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About the console, I made the one in the photo below. Not fancy. I made it 35 years ago, before I parked the car for 30 years. :) My fabrication skills are much improved now, but that has worked well and looks good from the top side. Made of cheap plywood and covered with poor-quality vinyl. I'd use better quality materials now. The arm pad though is covered with leather, and I like it.
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Hi Fotog - thanks for this. It's difficult to see from the low res picture on their website (below) whether or not the vinyl pattern is the same, or if the cushion splits are the same - at £153 a seat it wouldn't be the worst thing to do both sides if they looked stock, but I'd still prefer to keep it as original as possible. Tried to call but they were busy, so will drop them an email. Lots of other stuff on their site I'll be needing!
You made a nice job of the console - your interior looks like a nice place to be! Having watched a few YouTube videos however, I've convinced myself that I can be an ABS plastic repair expert :FUNNY: and am going to repair and modify the original. Will post progress on that when I get to it - should give us all a laugh!
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Hi Cheguava
I also tried to get Banks and have emailed them about the covers. They do not have a pic of the black two section seats but the oatmeal ones look like this. I have my original fairly crappy foams, I wonder how difficult it would be to copy them in a more modern seating foam?
Its great to see you tackling these issues as I will be doing many of the same tasks. I may well investigate my centre console next as well.
All the best
Berni
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Hi Cheguava
I also tried to get Banks and have emailed them about the covers. They do not have a pic of the black two section seats but the oatmeal ones look like this. I have my original fairly crappy foams, I wonder how difficult it would be to copy them in a more modern seating foam?
Its great to see you tackling these issues as I will be doing many of the same tasks. I may well investigate my centre console next as well.
All the best
Berni
I'm feeling the same way about your resto - will keep sharing progress and if I hear back from Banks will let you know.
I stripped the driver's seat back to the shell today, ready for a coat of Hydrate 80 - it's survived pretty well considering. Trying to keep it moving a little on days when I've got some time to spend on it.
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Just for your reference, here are some photos of the seat-back and bottom upholstery pieces I got from Europa Supplies (ex- Banks).
Regarding the company, I have bought from both them and SJSportscars. Both can be responsive when you're looking to order; not so much once you've placed your order. Not very impressive, but ultimately I got my stuff from both of them.
Notice that I say "can be...". Not sure that they always are responsive when ordering.
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Just for your reference, here are some photos of the seat-back and bottom upholstery pieces I got from Europa Supplies (ex- Banks).
Regarding the company, I have bought from both them and SJSportscars. Both can be responsive when you're looking to order; not so much once you've placed your order. Not very impressive, but ultimately I got my stuff from both of them.
Notice that I say "can be...". Not sure that they always are responsive when ordering.
Thank you for posting those pics - super helpful. Confirms that the vinyl matches the seats that are in, and has the same backing. I'll follow up with Banks. I don't mind waiting a bit, as I've got plenty of other bits to be working on! But would be good to get orders in now so it doesn't hold it back later.
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They offer different styles, including that made with non-perforated vinyl, like my originals. You could send a photo to them to be specific about what you want.
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You could send a photo to them to be specific about what you want.
I'm afraid I was *that* person - sent them a picture of my seats and asked if theirs were the same! In my mind I was being helpful. ;D
I'll see how helpful they found it when I get a response.
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So, set myself the task of getting the dashboard out today, should be easy given it only occupies half a dozen lines in the manual. Wrestled off the steering wheel (prior application of release spray then rocking it at various different opposing points did the trick) and got the steering clamp off before the serious business set in. The inner dash screws in the bobbins came out, the outers just spun the nuts behind the dash. after getting access to the nut, just about got it to undo, but it was a close run thing. And the genius work of the dual purpose courtesy switch and fascia mount defeated me - nut just spun round, and the front is circular... Had to cut it off, luckily there was just room.
Still got the n/s door switch bolt, and fascia screw to remove, but feels like progress. Lying in the footwell with my head under the dash and my feet on the bulkhead had all the same joy (ie none) of sorting the dashboard wiring of my Scimitar in the 90's - I was more flexible then though!
After I've done the dash I might have a go at removing the door, seeing as it's just a case of removing the split pin and sliding the outer tube down. :FUNNY: Given the split pin's not for shifting, looks like hacksaw work may be needed.
Looking for replacements for the multitasking courtesy switches, I see Banks have them at a shade under £15 each, but no stock. Looks like they are common to Austin A30/35s, as this seller's switches look very similar to me.
https://www.austina30a35parts.co.uk/product/all-electrical-parts/courtesy-light-switch-zswh001/ZSWH001
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Nope, that's definitely not the same switch. It looks like a much nicer one!
Don't forget about the tapped hole in the bottom of the hinge pin 5/16 - 24 or 16.
A saws-all is your friend but not having one, I just used a hacksaw blade handle - with a hacksaw blade, of course.
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That hinge pin looks like it's stainless. There's virtually no rust there. So it should be possible to pull it. Not to mention that it will be difficult to cut assuming I'm right that it's stainless.
That doesn't mean it will be necessarily easy, because chances are low that all the bushings in the door and body are actually co-axial.
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Good point, Fotog. Cheguava can check it with a magnet. Most but not all stainless steels are non magnetic. If it's really rust free, it probably won't need to be cut and will come out with a little coaxing.
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The door pin and door bush/lock nut look in excellent condition, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has been there in the past and replaced them. When I did mine in the late 80s the car was probably 15-16yrs old and the lower part of the pin and door bushes were completely rusted. Even getting the nut to move was a big effort whereas yours looks as if you could be in with a good chance.
As for magentism the austenitic stainless steels, 18%Cr/8%Ni grades for example, are usually non-magnetic although they can have a very small pull on a magnet. Ferritic stainless steels with only 11/12%Cr were the original "stainless steels" and are strongly magnetic, it's the structure that does it. Ferritic steels are cutlery, usually exhaust tubing and anything where you want shiny/no rust but at a lower cost than the 18/8's. Hence it could be as magnetic as plain steel but still stainless.
I would certainly try to move that pin though, leave it soaking in plus-gas or equivalent for a couple of days and you could be in luck with it.
Brian
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Thanks all, really appreciate the input. It struck me late last night that I'd not supported the weight of the door, and that might have hampered the pin from shifting. I'll give it a further dousing of release spray and then try again in a couple of days.
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Posted in anticipation...
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And from this thread...
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=5601.msg60568
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Thanks all, really appreciate the input. It struck me late last night that I'd not supported the weight of the door, and that might have hampered the pin from shifting. I'll give it a further dousing of release spray and then try again in a couple of days.
What usually happens is that the pin seizes in the door bush and so when you open the door the pin moves at the same time and the sliding surfaces are between the aluminium bushes in the body (lower sill, upper door aperture). This is what causes the wear and doors to drop.
My first shot would be to sit inside the car, hold the pin with mole grips and try to open the door. If it moves the mole grips as well, then use the leverage of the door whilst holding the grips to get the pin rotating while the door is stationary. That'll be the best way to get the release fluid where it's needed and any marks from the grips can be filed off before you start to drop the pin out.
Brian
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My stainless Pins from RD have a threaded hole in the lower end to accept a bolt that aids in turning and removing.
I use my Bonney wrenches to loosen and tighten nuts. Okay Gavin no jokes now. :FUNNY:
Dakazman
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What usually happens is that the pin seizes in the door bush and so when you open the door the pin moves at the same time and the sliding surfaces are between the aluminium bushes in the body (lower sill, upper door aperture). This is what causes the wear and doors to drop.
My first shot would be to sit inside the car, hold the pin with mole grips and try to open the door. If it moves the mole grips as well, then use the leverage of the door whilst holding the grips to get the pin rotating while the door is stationary. That'll be the best way to get the release fluid where it's needed and any marks from the grips can be filed off before you start to drop the pin out.
Brian
Been out all day, but popped out to the garage this evening to see if I could make any progress. With the driver's door supported, got the split pin out! :trophy: However, the door pin rotates with the door, and so far, is resisting any attempts with the mole grips to loosen. Will try again tomorrow. The passenger door pin, on the other hand, does not rotate as you open the door, but the crusty tail of the split pin is pointing inwards, so removing that is going to be joyful, unless I can get an improvised punch on it and knock it through. One for tomorrow.
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My stainless Pins from RD have a threaded hole in the lower end to accept a bolt that aids in turning and removing.
I use my Bonney wrenches to loosen and tighten nuts. Okay Gavin no jokes now. :FUNNY:
Dakazman
Cheers, I will have a look from underneath and see if I'm in luck and have the same assistance. Definitely worth a check.
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You could send a photo to them to be specific about what you want.
I'm afraid I was *that* person - sent them a picture of my seats and asked if theirs were the same! In my mind I was being helpful. ;D
I'll see how helpful they found it when I get a response.
I'm spamming my own thread now. :D Just admin - need to add that Banks have replied today (promptly) to my email, confirming that their ribbed perforated vinyl seat covers look to be the same as mine, and also answering another question I had. They quote lead time for seats as 3-4 weeks, which works for me, thought I'd share it as I know there are others considering options.
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Thanks Dave - living in the antipodes, I never really came across a "Bonney wrench".
My old Scottish uncle used to tell me about a 'bonny wench' engendering similar constrictions.... so perhaps that's where the confusion set in. ;)
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Been derailed by some serious dentistry, having been given strict instructions about limiting physical effort I've left the doors until I've healed a bit. Instead of which, I managed to get the dash out, and can look at it in all its (ahem) glory. Crash pad looks ok, but might get a covering of vinyl to freshen it up. Fascia panel has me in two minds, I'm not a fan of the OE lacquered floorboard look, and although the walnut veneer looks ok, i might try stripping the panel back and painting it matt / satin black.
So, onto stupid question time. My radiator was crumbling to bits as I removed it, but as luck would have it there was a Europa rad on eBay which looked decent, even had a Spal fan fitted (mine looked like it had been submerged with the Titanic). It arrived today, and is in evidently good nick, but doesn't have a hole for the Otter switch - it has an indented circle where it would be fitted but no hole. So I was wondering if everyone on here had an otter switch, or is there an alternative to switch on your fan when the radiator gets... otter? And yes, I am getting ahead of myself buying parts at the strip down stage, but it was retail therapy.
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I used a fan controller like this one (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CN4XZI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). It includes a relay and lets you dial in the temperature when the fan starts. It doesn't require an otter or other switch because it has a temperature probe that goes between the fins of the radiator.
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The otter switch has been redundant on my car since, well, probably before I got it in the 80s. The original owner of my car had fitted a dash switch and when I used the car daily in traffic I'd just flick it on if I got caught in a jam, otherwise it wasn't needed. All that's happened in my ownership is to rewire and fit a relay in the circuit, plus of course changing the fan for a more modern unit. When I tidied up the radiator 10+yrs ago the old switch was still there but all it's doing is keeping the coolant in.
If you really do want automatic control and can't fit the OEM switch then aftermarket fans such as the Kenlow I have on the Elan came with a bulb sensor & leads which you could slide into the top hose. There is a small rubber moulding, hard to describe but mine is a sort of half circle with indentations for the wire. This sits on the alloy thermosat housing outlet and the original hose slides over the combination and seals very well. You can set the temperature you want it to come on and it also has an override switch with a light to tell you when it's on. The original fan has long since been replaced by a slimmer, modern unit but the controller is still in there.
Brian
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Thanks BDA and Brian - that's really helpful. Either of those solutions sound like they would do the job, I'm tending towards the automatic with override which was what I had on my old Scimitar which was a little marginal on cooling, particularly if you were blatting along on the motorway and then hit traffic, it was good to get the fan on early.
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I have fitted manual over-ride earth switches to my cars. The fan is loud, so you can hear when you have switched it on. Normally only needed in heavy traffic or road works with a long wait at traffic lights.
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I have fitted manual over-ride earth switches to my cars. The fan is loud, so you can hear when you have switched it on. Normally only needed in heavy traffic or road works with a long wait at traffic lights.
Thanks for this, looks like I can fit a fan controller using the wiring for the otter switch, and add an override switch if it doesn't come with the kit. They all seem to come with a relay, which I'll definitely be using.
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Davies Craig make an old school fan controller with adjustable cut in point. I believe this is the type Brian is referring to.
There's also these in-line otter switch adaptors, too.
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Davies Craig make an old school fan controller with adjustable cut in point. I believe this is the type Brian is referring to.
There's also these in-line otter switch adaptors, too.
Thanks Gavin - looks like I have decisions to make on the rebuild - positive ones though! This site is a fantastic repository of knowledge - there's so much I've found out using the search bar, but I really appreciate the responses from people who've been and done this before