Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: ezuskin on Wednesday,October 14, 2015, 06:33:34 AM
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Hi group,
My mechanic who is aligning my TC after I replaced steering rack commented that if you hold brake pedal down more than a few minutes it starts to go soft. I have been reading the various conversion posts, wife turns over and asks "what are you doing up reading at 2am" , I reply " obsessively researching new master cylinders for the Lotus" She is no longer concerned by my totally normal behavior.
I am curious about the long term reviews of these various conversions.
Triumph tandem
Tilton single circuit
Nissan F10 seems to be made of unobtanium
Ford Courier
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You can get that master cylinder rebuilt at White Post Restorations (http://whitepost.com/). I got mine rebuilt there recently.
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Rebuild would be kind of ok but would not improve my situation. I have TC size master with no boosters that, although can lock up brakes at speed, have always felt like pushing my foot against a block of wood, no real sense of being able to modulate.
Eddie
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I've had direct experience with two of the four mentioned, the Nissan F10 on a TCS and the Courier on an S2. Both were short term but essentially back to back with each other and the stock S2. All three had different pads which probably had some effect on the stopping power of each car. In terms of "feel", the F10 on the TCS had the nicest and plushest feel needing moderate pedal pressure to stop the car (boosters removed). Both the stock and Courier MCs were about equal in pedal pressure. Both needed fairly hard pressure to stop the car up to the point of impending lockup. I have not experimented with different brake pads on either car.
In doing my research on MC conversions for my S2, this is the conclusion that I came up (just my opinion of course).
1. The simplest and most "bolt on" is the Spitfire MC. No grinding of the MC body to make the flange bolts fit the pedal extension box and use the stock pushrod. Need to reroute the brake lines to the other side and is readily available.
2. Second simplest is the Tilton single circuit MC. Single circuit, direct bolt on as the Spitfire and relatively cheap. A bit more complicated in rerouting the brake lines in needing an additional three way union to hook up to front and back stock unions. How comfortable are you with a single circuit braking system.
3. I have first hand experience with the Ford Courier conversion but not with the F10. I believe, reading up on the F10 conversion, that both are about equal in the additional steps needed to make the MC fit. Both require grinding of the mounting holes, both need new brake lines and fittings, the F10 needs a remote reservoir fitted while the Courier needs a pushrod retaining system.
4. The last item to consider is cost and availability. The last time I checked a couple of years ago, the F10 MC was impossible to find anywhere so that ruled it out for me. The Tilton is relatively cheap and available, but I wanted to keep to a dual circuit system so the Tilton was eliminated for consideration. For some reason, I never seriously considered the Spitfire MC, wish I had. It's readily available from British car vendors for around $150. The Ford Courier MC was really cheap and available a couple of years ago. I bought mine for $25 from a vendor doing a closeout on the Cardone MCs. Do not know what the situation is now.
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Rebuild would be kind of ok but would not improve my situation. I have TC size master with no boosters that, although can lock up brakes at speed, have always felt like pushing my foot against a block of wood, no real sense of being able to modulate.
Eddie
Hi there,
If you have the standard pads intended for use with a servo, then I can understand why it feels wooden, back in the day there were different pad materials for servo & non-servo cars. So my first suggestion would be to try different brake pads unless you're in desperate need of a new m/cylinder.
I've used EBC Greenstuff which are ok, standard Triumph Spitfire (non servo) Mintex pads and have just fitted some more expensive Mintex 1144 pads along with some new calipers. It's too early to comment on the latter, but both of the predecessors worked fine. Ironically the cheap Mintex standard pads had more feel than the EBC pads and I thought they were better. So I think there's some mileage in trying different pad materials, sometimes the differences are surprising.
Back on topic, I have the Spitfire M/C & there are details here http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=138.0 (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=138.0)
The bore is 0.7" and if your current m/cyl is larger than this (I think some were) then you'll get longer pedal travel which you may or may not like. On my car with discs all round the calculated pedal travel was 3.8cm and that's pretty much exactly what I get now when I finally bleed the brakes correctly.
Brian
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Brian,
There are several broken pictures in you post, "Yet another Tandem Master Cylinder installation". Do you think you can fix that?
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Brian,
There are several broken pictures in you post, "Yet another Tandem Master Cylinder installation". Do you think you can fix that?
I just check that post and all seems to working correctly for me. Can you be more specific and I will check again.
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Hey Joe,
The first three pictures show up but the next three just show this:
(it shouldn't matter - and hasn't before - but I'm using Chrome on Win 7)
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Hey Joe,
The first three pictures show up but the next three just show this:
(it shouldn't matter - and hasn't before - but I'm using Chrome on Win 7)
Ok, sorry I was looking at the wrong post. I think I have corrected the problem and it should be working now.
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Yep, it's working on mine, Firefox on W10. When I got the link I didn't check past the top of first post so don't know if it was a problem before. Perhaps it might be better if we bundled these technical articles into PDF files when it's all over and we've ironed out the bugs ? That way any photos should be bound up with the text.
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Hey Joe,
The first three pictures show up but the next three just show this:
(it shouldn't matter - and hasn't before - but I'm using Chrome on Win 7)
Ok, sorry I was looking at the wrong post. I think I have corrected the problem and it should be working now.
Yup! You fixed it, Joe! Thanks!
Actually, now that I look at it again, I think all the pictures are there (I see six) but the "broken picture" icon is still there on the last three pictures.
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I'm still very happy with my F10 conversion and booster removal. http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=93.msg459#msg459 (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=93.msg459#msg459)
Too bad they've gone from cheap and plentiful (seemingly) to unobtanium.
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I thought I had seen several places that claimed to sell the F10 master cylinder, but they were all out of stock... until I found this one (http://classicgarage.com/nidf10brmacy.html). Maybe they actually have one!
I found this place that said they would ship in 3 - 5 days (http://www.buyautopartsonline.ca/catalog-1/parttype/brake-master-cylinder/nissan/gt-r/f10)
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Thanks for locating the MC. Hope I'm not sorry about buying a reman, not a big investment, $57 US
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It should be OK. Let us know how it turns out.
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Back to beginning. I ordered from that company in Canada yesterday and this morning they issued a refund with no explanation, guess they were sold out
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Bummer! Did you try classicgarage.com?
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This week 'stotlaat' posted to the Yahoo group that he had a Datsun MC that he will not be using. Might email him and ask if he'd be willing to part with it?
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Went online tonite and pulled up a Centric brand part # 130.42202 that brought up available items from Autoplicity($107.95), Summit Racing(10/30 for $149). We'll see if order goes through
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You just wouldn't think you would have trouble finding a part for a Nissan sedan!
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Given how difficult the search is becoming, I think I'd try to find a rebuild kit as well. Stored properly it will last for years and even if you never use it, it's good insurance.
Brian
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Rebuild would be kind of ok but would not improve my situation. I have TC size master with no boosters that, although can lock up brakes at speed, have always felt like pushing my foot against a block of wood, no real sense of being able to modulate.
Eddie
I have not yet driven a Europa with a .700" MC to know the feel but I have gone down in MC bore on an older street bike to get better feel, It had a solid dead feel. Has anyone tried smaller? Does the peddle become more firm and lack feel when going to the .750" Wilwood makes a .625" MC with the ports on the right side but it would need a bracket fabbed up.
http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderList.aspx?group=Tandem%20Master%20Cylinder%20%28TM1%29
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That's 2 companies that sold then refunded my money. The Autoplicity, $107.95, just notified of refund. Appears that the $149 sellers have stock and Summit Racing will ship end of month
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If you don't get the F10 M/C, maybe this document on using a Tilton M/C will be useful (I got it from the yahoo group).
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If you don't get the F10 M/C, maybe this document on using a Tilton M/C will be useful (I got it from the yahoo group).
If you don't mind that it's still a single circuit MC, it will be a direct bolt on, just need to run/reroute brake lines. It may be cheap enough to at least get you on the road and a feel for the 0.70" MC.
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I'm on the road and i don't think it has been different for years. My mechanic that did alignment commented that if you held the pedal for a minute it started to sink. I have driven it a bit for a week and haven't experienced a problem but it will start to sink after holding it awhile
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I wonder if it's worth the money putting in new seals, see if that solves your problem for awhile.
Hone out the bore before installing the new seals and be careful not to push the pistons all the way in when bleeding the brakes to prevent destroying the new seals in the possibly pitted section of the MC. Better yet, use a power bleeder.
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If the cylinder is pitted, it needs replacing or sleeving.