Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Lyngeled on Saturday,August 17, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
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Hello
Bad news from me, I crashed into a traffic sign this tuesday, after having a month while it was running really good. Now I have to think and investigate what to do.
I have analyzed the incident to what must have happened to this:
It was raining a bit, and I accelerated up into 1st., 2.nd and 3rd in a almost straight wide road, which slope a bit down. Then I let go of the throttle and did nothing else, and slowly it started to swing it's rear, more and more. I did not hear anything from the to suspect that it actually was braking the car, and slipping. I ended with the car sideways into the (normal sized) sign, hitting it just behind the front wheel.
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... Then I could see how this glass fiber body reacts to a metal sign. I don't know my speed to judge if is it strong (or strong compared steel) but I felt at the moment that it was not. I think the thickness is high but I know the materials and build technique is not good. Modern woven glass fiber would be better. Vacuum bagging would be better. Epoxy again better.
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That sounds a bit unnerving! Thankfully, you didn't get hurt and it sounds like your car wasn't severely damaged. I can't explain what caused your problem but I think except for being able to bolt on new body pieces, I'd rather fix fiberglass. In fact, there are accident scenarios where fiberglass, even as thin as that on the Europa, is more crash worthy than steel bodies.
Good luck.
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Sorry to hear. I feel your pain. Mid engine cars are like a pendulum when they start to spin. Very difficult to correct on a wet road. The secret is not to lift but accelerate and try and find traction. Most people are counter intuitive and immediately turn the wheels in the opposite direction and hit the brakes. You don't have a chance once you do that.
I spun my Lotus Exige S on the track once in the rain when I hit oil dropped on the track. Hit the Armco at 80 mph. That hurt...... totaled the car. (I built another one).
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Just cutout is he damaged areas and scarf cut all repaired areas top and bottom. Use polyester resin.
Send pics please! So I can help you sort it out.
Dakazman
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Yup, engine braking on a slippery downhill slope can go pear-shaped. Sorry it happened to you but glad to hear the damage was to the car and not yourself. Putting in the clutch and braking may -- and I mean "may" -- have helped.
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Sad news indeed but as someone once told me, you can replace cars but replacing people is a bit harder. It doesn't matter if the car is an old banger or my pride and joy, damaging it always gets to me so I console myself with "it's only a car, I can get another".
As Dakazman says, post up a photo and as many of us have been there before, we might be able to throw in a few pointers on repair.
The crash puzzles me though, something sounds wrong. I've driven my TC in all weathers when we lived in Yorkshire (that's plenty hilly) including snow and I can't say I've experienced the same effects when coasting. Given the amount of rain we have in the UK, if that was a normal reaction the cars would have had a really bad reputation back in their day.
On a standard car it's easy to lock the front wheels when braking in the wet, but I've not heard of a car becoming unstable just from engine braking when going in a straight line. I can see it would unload the rear wheels and on a downhill perhaps transfer some weight to the front but I wouldn't have expected it to be strong enough to unsettle the car if it was in 3rd or 4th. When you're ready to go again I'd check the tyres/pressures, rear alignment and possibly the rear brakes for binding. I know mid engined cars have a reputation for being twitchy when cornering on the limit but you shouldn't be there going in a straight line.
Brian
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Here is two that shows it best.
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Wow. Lots to unpack here.
First is the fragility of our cars. I am hoping there was no passenger and that this is a left hand drive car. Really glad you seem to be okay Lyngeled. Those sign posts are supposed to fold over when hit, at least by normal cars. You have got me considering a roll cage.
Second is the handling issue. I have been experimenting with cornering when I can find a safe place to do so. I can confirm lifting off the gas suddenly in a tight turn is a recipe for over steer. But the situation you describe doesn't sound like it would cause that kind of loss of control. Is there any chance you downshifted into reverse and the wheels were spinning backwards? They would be essentially friction-less on a slick road. I would have though slamming into reverse would make a hell of a racket though, at least it does on my car when I miss second and hit reverse on a downshift.
Third is getting you up and running again. Looks like the frame is okay. Jay Leno once said in a crash, the frame is protected by meat bags in the seats. Miraculously the windshield looks intact. Looks like mostly fiberglass work. Let the forum know what you need, we're here to help.
Tom
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If you need a new door, Boss motors near Snetterton Norfolk UK may have the Lotus original moulds to make them.
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Lyngeled, that is much worse than I expected! And more a shame because your car looked like it was really nice. I, too, hope you didn't have a passenger! Collecting as many of the pieces will make the repair job a lot easier as will a new door as 4129R suggests.
I hope you are ok and you decide to resurrect your car. It would be a greater shame if this was the end for such a pretty car! Please keep us posted.
Good luck!
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What speed did you accelerate to?
I always tell my passengers that they would be safer on a motorcycle.
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oh :huh:
now I didn't expect to see that sort of damage. I would be gutted at that because the car looks tremendous, I really feel for you. When you said "impact in front of the door" I had in mind a crunch between the wheel arch and door, not to find the door on the ground by the car !
But let's get positive.
Firstly, you walked away and lived to tell the tale. It might not feel like it, but that's all that matters. GRP cars always look bad in accidents because GRP breaks once past a certain point whereas metal cars crumple. And of course modern cars are designed to bump into things whereas ours never were.
Secondly, it looks all fibreglass damage and no matter how bad it looks, it's fixable. With any luck the door might be ok if it got thrown off when the hinge pin section got wrecked and as Alex says, there are people who make body sections up. I'll bet someone like Richard or Boss Motors would laminate up a repair sections that would of course cost more than repairing the original but would save weeks of laminate work. An alternative would be if anyone on the forum has a scrap shell that they're cutting up for repair sections ?
But gee, it's tragic. Lovely car, it definitely needs fixing !
Brian
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... The door is not damaged, and no passenger was in the car. No glass was broken either. And I got all the parts, some of are just really small. Here are some more pictures.
The last picture shows where I am where I am driving a while, when I have set it up 😊
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Well, there is some, if not good at least less bad, news out of this. Like Brian says, fiberglass is always fixable, having the pieces will help a lot and not needing a door is certainly a good thing. Obviously, things look pretty sad now and it will take a lot of time and effort to get your baby back together but this is a good start.
Except for the itching, I enjoyed doing that 'glass work on my car, but the downside is what friend said to me about working with fiberglass, "Smell resin, buy tools!"
Maybe it's best to keep that old adage in mind, "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one lay-up." :)
Good luck and please let us know how you're doing and if we can answer any questions, and please post pictures of your progress!
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Wow that’s a lot more substantial than I first imagined. Seeing the later pictures first , and the seat and pedal assemblies on the ground , I thought it was RHD. Glad it isn’t and your OKAY.
Hopefully the insurance people will repair it and not total it out . Then confiscate it. I really hate dealing with insurance companies. Since there is damage to a sign post they probably will need to get involved.
Dakazman
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I have one thing to consider and talk to a friends friend to get an advice, before I will "reveil" what I have almost decided. (Not to get more "attention" and maybe a bit silly :) )
But outside parts is the least damaged. It's really the passengers floor just under where the knees would have been, that have broken into the smallest pieces. One of theses pieces must have made that triangular cut the carpet on the tunnel.
I am very sure that I did not down shift and I am sure that I let go off the throttle. After that I was not sure what I did beside of this, but the car never before had locked the rear, always the front.
More from that afternoon: I was with 6 other Lotuses (and a Fiat :) ), and was going drive a 100 km trip (and eat out after that). Just a few minutes later this happened. I did not look at the speedometer just drove in the middle of us eight cars. I called for an tow truck, while waiting and after tidying up I tried to get it loose from the sign (it was both under and over), and after get all loose, and reconnect the battery, and started it, we decided drive it home (cancelled the tow truck). Only the windshield wipers didn't work. I even got help from another friendly "normal car" owner with space for a door. Then I tried to be a passenger in a RHD Elise.
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Great story.
Start collecting some large cardboard and some heavy plastic sheeting. Get some glass fiber and some polyester resin and form the basic panel shapes . cut and glue some 2” trim to the outline of the existing body. Then add in the piece you made . Coat with resin the underside of the panel screw in place. After drying bevel a good 2” 45 degree on old and new section and glass over a 4” band. Done😀
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What kind of shocks/dampers are you using? I am still using old Konis, and mine and are currently set to the softest setting (I need to change this) I had a similar situation where I lifted and almost spun the car. However, this was on a dry racetrack so all ended up ok. At this setting the lack of rebound will allow the cars weight to shift forward abruptly even at a slight lift, and induce a snap oversteer. Especially in wet conditions. If you are using the Konis definitely have a look.
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Hi, I don't know wich shock I use, or if it just a normal reaction. I want to know more about what happened.
But, about the damaged car. I later had decided that I wanted to repair it, and that I wanted to do it myself, because that I had earlier spend a lot of time fixing very old GRP boat, and I have got a lot of experience out of that. Now I have to convince my insurance company that the car can be fixed for less than to be totaled, as they are talking about. I did not expect that.
I think that I know a lot about GRP and that it repair is ok easy. Yesterday I was putting the broken pieces together and it looked better that I thought. It seemed rather easy to rebuild the vertical walls of the foot well, and I found a prefabricated sheet that could make a new floor, and a stronger on than the original. The outside looked the easiest from the first view, so that i would look forward to.
So now I am focused on how I can save, and keep this car.
I already have plans how to do build it, and to document it, just now this have to wait.
regards
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That's a troubling situation. I don't know how it works over there but over here, if your car is totaled, you can buy it back from the insurance company. That might be one tact you can use.
I assume you have educated your insurance company that you haven't damaged the "structure" (i.e. the frame) of the car. I remember reading that shortly after the Europa was introduced that some insurance companies had to be educated about the economy of the bolt in central backbone frame. In your case, you're willing to do the work so maybe you can work a deal with them to pay for materials, a little for your labor, carpet, and paint. That should make their cost VERY reasonable.
If you're not already, you might look into an insurance company that specializes in classic and antique cars. I have a policy on my car with Hagerty who is very understanding about the issues these cars can have as well as their owners.
It might take a bit of educating on your part but I would think that you have a shot.
Good luck!
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Hello Lyngeled,
first of all, I'm glad that nobody was hurt in your spin....
good luck with the repairs, it seems that you have the necessary skills to mend your lovely car.
(I hope your insurance company are sensible too)
Mark
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Man this is quite the accident. I am glad no one was seriously hurt. It seems the fiberglass crumpling so easily probably save the frame as well and just lucky you missed the front wheel. Good luck with the repairs and definitely keep us posted it is a great looking S2 you have there and looks to be worth saving.
As for the spin I was thinking a little bit about it and was wondering how old your tires are. Maybe they have heat cycled one to many times and become very hard and not able to provide much traction anymore? Just another idea as you try to figure out what happened.
Cheers,
Ross
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I have lost control of my car three times - each time it was over steer with the rear end trying to point the way down the road. All three times were in the dry with Yokohama A008R tires. Twice I recovered, but the third time was the charm - went ‘off road’ and bent the frame and cracked a lot of fiberglass. I can’t say that my speed was excessive in any case, but I did commit the sin of backing off the throttle in a turn - learning had not occurred. I am convinced that the engine/gearbox unit moves fore and aft on the rubber engine and gearbox mounts and the trailing arm mounts under power and braking thus changing the rear toe-in. In my rebuild, I will replace these mounts with ‘hard’ mounts to see if this improves the handling. The front end has Spyder A- arms with sperical joints.
Tom
74 TCS - 4605 Rp
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Almost every car will exhibit some trailing throttle oversteer. Even front wheel drive cars as well. When you back off the throttle, weight transfers from the rear to the front. If it is a rear wheel drive car, off throttle also induces engine braking which can be quite strong if the revs are high. Finally, rear weight bias adds considerable momentum to any resulting movement. Best place to practice this is a very large, and very empty, parking lot.
Having done a lot of winter driving in air-cooled VWs, I used to briefly go off throttle to induce a rear slide and drift around the corners.
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(part quote)
I am convinced that the engine/gearbox unit moves fore and aft on the rubber engine and gearbox mounts and the trailing arm mounts under power and braking thus changing the rear toe-in. In my rebuild, I will replace these mounts with ‘hard’ mounts to see if this improves the handling.
I'm not so sure about the engine mounts allowing enough forward movement to affect the rear toe, but I'm on the same page as regards the trailing arm mountings. There's a lot of rubber in there and with the heavier TC cars plus a different angle on the arms, I've often wondered if that's the reason Lotus specify so much rear toe. I could imagine a car set below the minimum values going to toe out during heavy braking. Admittedly off topic but back in the UK the very first SW20 MR2's were claimed to go toe-out if you lifted off on a corner giving oversteer and it was changed on subsequent models.
It's interesting that Lotus do a polyurethane mount for the later Esprit which looks a lot harder to deform than the rubber in our cars. And IIRC Colin Ham replaced the radius arm bushes with a much stiffer set up for race prep on the TC. Perhaps spherical joints will transmit too much noise for a road car and that's the reason Lotus went for large rubber bushes ?
Going back on topic, the more I think about it the more I'd want to check the rear suspension for toe and/or any worn components - UJ/bushes/bolts/etc. The description (baring some weird road condition) sound very much like going rear toe out.
Brian
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Yesterday I was at location I crashed, and was surpriced to see how short a distance is was. It looks like 100m (109 yrds?), and I ended in 3rd gear. I don't know my speed but I wanted to decrease it (I felt I was going too fast), and maybe this engine brakes more because of more compression?
I will have check my tires, I think they are from 2014. The treads looks to work in rain.
I don't believe it is going to be "totaled" (is this what it's called?), even though they earlier talked about that. The rules are that the amount of money it will cost to repair it back to how it was may not be more than 75%. And that is by using danish labour and that is expensive. It doesn't matter if I do the work, it is calculated with a proffesionals hourly rate.
But there is "room" for a lot of hours for the work, when I subtract materials.
This a link to a S2 for sale in Denmark, but not as nice as mine. My engine is worth more, my interior looks better, so if this price is realistic mine is worth that at least.
https://www.dba.dk/lotus-europa-16-s2-benzin/id-1058233048/ (https://www.dba.dk/lotus-europa-16-s2-benzin/id-1058233048/) (1 Dkr = 0,148 USD = £ 0,122)
There should not be problem. So it just how it should be fixed. I think the cheapest would be to rebuild from the larger pieces that broke of, and reconstruct the floor which is in many pieces. And then it is only necessary to use "local bought" materials, and then I want to do it myself. Because I know a lot about GRP.
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That's good news that it probably won't be totalled! From the few pictures I've seen, I don't imagine you're likely to find as nice an S2 as you have much less for reasonable money.
Keep us posted, and good luck!
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So I have some to tell from this "story". At first I investigated a lot in rules and laws, the insurance company and the state. I found some experts to help me in insurance questions, which gave good answers and guide me to the laws that concerned this case. So I have learned a lot and as I hear many people don't understand the rules or how this works. Persons in the insurance company do not know the laws concerning classic cars either.
So the biggest question was about when will a car be totaled. There are two cases when it can happen, one because of the law and the second if the cost of repair exceeds the cars market value (which is not written in the law). In Denmark (here I live) there are laws that says that if a certain type of car is damaged to a cost of repair which exceeds a certain percent of the cars market value, then there shall be payed a new registration fee to get in on the road again. The insurance company will not sell the wreck to the owner, but wreckers can bid on it. So they can rebuild or parts it up, as I understand it. Usually the handle newer cars and I don't think these are being rebuild, maybe expensive ones. A lot of people says that you can buy the wreck as owner, and some have done it, but the insurance company says no. Then the most interesting law says that all this does not apply to a classic car ;D. So it's only if the repair would exceed the cars value, and that I have in control - I have got an Ok for repair plan to about 20% of my cars market value.
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The next question was who and how it could be rebuild. I wanted it to be as good or better than before, and because I have worked a lot on GRP dinghies and I know that craftsmen do some job sloppy, I wanted to have lots of control of how it would be done. The insurance company says that I am allowed to do (some) work on the car. They have responsibility for that the car is repaired in a way so the car is as safe as it was before. So then all fiberglass work in the is going to be made by a professional. Because of I had difficulties getting an agreement/answer from Banks, I decided to make my own moulds for the inner and outer shell, and let the professional worker build the rest in those moulds.
I had a long pause doing a lot of other things before I felt ready to begin this rebuild, but now I have almost completed the inner shell/foot well, to soon building to first mould. So the parts is put together for making the mould, and not to look good or being strong. Then I will rebuild the outer shell, and a second mould. When the two mouldings is done, the areas I have build will be cut out again and the new parts "mounted". At last it's painted and all parts mounted.
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Hi Lyngeled,
I hope you continue to make good progress (and please do share any photographs of the repairs on your car!)
Mark
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Very interesting regarding the insurance issues. I'm glad to hear your repairs are progressing. Keep us posted.
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That's very good news about your progress. I think we'd all like to see some pictures! I might be a life saver to someone attempting a major body repair.
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Hi, I cut up an 1969 s2 into 1/4 's I have the section you need, but door is in fair condition, the bad part is I live in Canada, shipping is a little expensive, but if you need the part I can send you a pic. Mike 514-620-4900 is my phone.
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Hi alan
thanks for your suggestion. I am not not sure if it will be too expensive but I like to know the cost if you like to find it? Why is it cut up?
Lars
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Here are pictures, and explanations on what have been done. First the sad parts I used and the car to give some overview. Then the first parts mounted into place and repaired areas.
The idea was to avoid taking the body off, first to save work and second the chassis helped keeping the body right (not bending). I checked that the chassis haven't been bent. The damages which couldn't be a part of the mould (deeper in the corners), I repaired very thoroughly because they was going to be the final repair. So it was made to be as strong as possible and not very different looking than the original surfaces. I use fat red lines to show where the cracks is/were.
To force the parts into place i use different pieces of wood, either jammed in or screwed onto.
There is a lot of pictures, and more is coming :)
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Wow! That's quite a puzzle. Hats off to you, sir, for attempting such a repair.
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Have you tried Boss Motors for the repair section that you need? They have taken a lot of the original moulds from Lotus over the years and I’m pretty sure they have Europa moulds. Based in Norfolk, 01953 887 471.
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No, I have not heard of them. I will try to make a call.
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Boss motors have a Facebook page, with some examples of their work.
https://www.facebook.com/Boss-motors-1852531295061863/
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If you need a new door, Boss motors near Snetterton Norfolk UK may have the Lotus original moulds to make them.
I can see Boss Motors was mentioned here :(
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:I-agree:
I would definitely go the pro route.
Dakazman
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I feel that Boss Motors does good jobs so I would accept that. If I should let someone here in Denmark do it I would be very skeptical. A lot of people think they know enough about fiberglass work and I have seen some work on dinghies. It is too easy to slap something together and make the result look really good. But I think that I found some here that I trust to do fiberglass work.
Initially I was worried that the cost would exceed the cars value, and someone told me it would be too expensive to ship such parts from the UK. And I gave up on Banks.
I have today talked to Boss Motors and send photos, so now I am curious what this will cost.
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I used wood to push the pieces into place, and when I needed backing (behind a hole) for fiberglass I placed a piece of plywood or plastic in a plastic bag, to make it slip when it was cured.
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Here are some more pictures. I think it's interesting that this old fiberglass warp and bulge, and it is very difficult to push into it's old "place".
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There is certainly a long way to go but it looks like you're well on your way and things are starting to come together.
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I have almost finished the inner part, I have more to show 😊
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It may be somewhat waste of time, if it works with Boss, but I felt this was the best way.
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More pictures.
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Nice progress!
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:I-agree:
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It's a slow process but you're moving right along and it's looking very good. Soon you'll be prepping for paint!
Thanks for the pictures and documented process.