Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: 69merc on Tuesday,March 28, 2017, 10:37:34 AM
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Hi, new member here. I'm looking for tips on what to look for when I go look at my coworkers 74 5 spd Europa. He is the original owner. It was last driven around 1980. Typical story.....pulled engine to rebuild and never finished. It has always been stored indoors. It has 40k miles. It is yellow. It has a fiberglass repair to the drivers rear quarter (accident) from its driving days. Owner states it was cosmetic. It does have a crack in the windshield. I've done some research on the Europa and know to look at the frame for rot (st louis car). He's looking to get 4K. I'm a car nut. I've restored Ford products (mustang, cougar, ranchero) and have skills and tools. Never have worked on a European exotic. I like the looks of the Europa and the lotus concept. Is this worth going to look at and get back on the road?
Thanks for your time,
Jim
St. Louis
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:Welcome: Jim!
Without seeing at least a picture, it's hard to say if $4K is a good price. It sounds good...
If that accident was the only one he's been in, you should be able to eyeball it for straightness and rust. The frame is going to be the thing that could cause the biggest headache. Check the front suspension pieces for damage. They are designed to be sacrificial to protect the frame in the event of a minor accident. Take a good look at the gas tanks. They are made of steel and their design encourages water to collect on the top causing rust. Make sure the car no longer has the plastic 'T' between the carbs. You'l likely have to rebuild all the hydraulics. Check the rest of the fiberglass for stress and spider cracks. I'm sure others will have ideas for things to look at.
If it looks reasonably clean, $4K sounds pretty good. There are replacement parts for almost everything - though they are not necessarily OEM. There's a list of useful websites here: http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1389.0
Maybe it's because I'm too close to them and because they are so old, but I don't think of it as an exotic. That may be unfair because there are few cars that are similar and they draw a lot of attention. Almost every time I park somewhere, there is somebody who asks me about it or wants to know what it is or just wants to drool. As for driving it, there aren't a lot of affordable cars that can match it. Compared to modern cars, there are a lot of rough edges, but nothing gives you the intimate feel you get with a Europa (well, maybe another old Lotus does). You'll find that it is a pretty simple car and for the most part pretty easy to work on.
Let us know what happens and post pictures! Don't be shy about asking questions either!
Good luck!
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The value depends on what is missing, as well as the state of the interior upholstery, and the paintwork on the fibreglass.
I am restoring 7 x TCS, and the main cost is the paint, then the upholstery.
A chassis I changed had bad rust down the rear legs either side of the engine, parallel to the rear trailing arms.
Gearboxes are like rocking horse sh*t.
Engines are easy but can be expensive.
Most other bits you can get or make, or repair.
Alex in Norfolk UK, the home of Lotus.
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Adding to the above comments, the windshield is bonded to the fiberglass with an adhesive sealant and the OEM trim around the windshield is no longer available in same dimension. Not a simple project. Engine rebuilds are expensive. As mentioned, re painting the car is the most expensive part of the project.
But if your like me and always wanted a Europa and have the time and tools to rebuild, go for it!
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Three windscreens have fallen out of 3089R, 3755R and 4688R without any major dramas.
I rebuild the engines myself after local professional machining (boring and grinding).
Look also for holes in the top of the petrol tanks both sides of the engine bay.
Check whether the seats slide in the runners. If they are rusty (leaking windscreens cause the floors to fill up and rust the steel seat frames and the runners. Seats are also like RHS. I am picking up 2 I had made in alli on Friday. I will post photos of the old steel seats from 3089R and the new ones soon.
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Expect to have to replace everything rubber. The hardest things to get to are the hoses from the central tunnel to the heater. If you need to replace them use longer hoses and cross them over to avoid sharp bends (Banks trick).
I spent about 1 day last weekend cleaning two sets of 4 + 2 gauges. The rubber O rings around the glass was liquid on some, and rock hard and in lumps on others.
The fillers for the 2 tanks are 2" diameter rubber. 2 front radiator hoses, 2 rear engine hoses, rear heater hoses, engine mountings (the metal becomes detached), the window runners, the door surrounds, should all be checked and are easily available.
Expect the silencer (muffler) to be pure rust. The front brake discs are probably beyond cleaning up, but are cheap as chips (French fries).
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4129R, I would agree that removing the windshield and trim is easy......the removal of all the adhesive/sealant down to the fiberglass took an entire day 8)
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4129R, I would agree that removing the windshield and trim is easy......the removal of all the adhesive/sealant down to the fiberglass took an entire day 8)
Sounds just like a speedo I cleaned. I took the chrome bezel and glass out, and the rubber between the glass and bezel was black sticky liquid. Stuck to everything, even the washing up brush. Her indoors was not impressed.
Rubber does strange things as it ages. Black mastic can be the same. The mastic around the alli door window frames can be difficult to remove too.
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As for value of such a car. The twin cam engine alone is worth the 4k. rebuilt closer to 10K just look on ebay & see what they go for. The rest is mainly A: how badly do you want it? B: How much time & money are you willing to put into it? The resale value like most cars you'll probably never get out of it what you'll put in. C: How long are you willing to wait to be able to drive it? If it's like most between time & money (which are really the only 2 ingredients in the equation. When you have one you don't have the other). It can take a very long time. You'll just have to go & look at it & asses it for your self as to work needed & how far as a restoration you want/are willing to go.
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4K assumes the engine is rebuildable: block thrust surfaces OK, bores good/boreable,and, most importantly, the head is rebuildable. Some blocks are toast and, now-a-days, many heads are as well.
10K assumes it is built to a reasonably high standard with components that are good, not just useable, and parts that are match balanced and the engine blueprinted. You can spend more with steel cranks, etc.
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Thank you for all the info on the Europa and what to look for when I go look at the car. I will post my thoughts and some pics after seeing it. Now I need to set up a time to go check it out. Currently it's in a storage unit, so I need to make sure I can see all of it (and under it) well.
Jim
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Welcome to the forum.
The frames were not protested from rust when new so that can be a problem. The frame and rear suspension trailing arms are only 16 ga. sheet metal, so anything beyond minor surface rust will need attention. Cracking around the stress points of the 'T' section at the front of the frame can also be an issue.
It sounds like you may not be able to get under the car to check this stuff out, though. If you are handy with a welder then minor repairs can be made. If the frame is shot, there are several choices on the market for replacements, so not necessarily a show stopper.
As mentioned, these cars are quite simple and for the most part quite easy to work on. Parts availability is great and the cost is not ridiculous in most cases. A lot of Triumph, MG, Mini, etc parts make up the period Lotus. The parts cast from unobtainium are the gear box and the rear suspension uprights/bearing housings. Non OEM solutions exist for the gearbox, though. There are some parts that are difficult but not impossible to find (mostly trim items, etc), and the vast majority of consumables are as close as your nearest classic British parts supplier. If you think a Lotus should be in your future, it is quite doable.
Looking forward to seeing some photos and hearing more about the car. Good luck.
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Welcome Jim, good luck with the Europa :Welcome:
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:lotus:
Hello!!
Good luck with the yellow car
Offer him 3k take it for 3500k
Have a look on bankseuropa
And see what parts cost
Think what a Honda Civic costs
23ktoday
Less than 25percent
In 70s money it's like 400 dollars
Get it!
Denny
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With one owner, low mileage, dry storage and presumably lots of history, I'd be surprised if it's not worth 4k, but every one is different. It's probably worth double that in the UK market.
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With one owner, low mileage, dry storage and presumably lots of history, I'd be surprised if it's not worth 4k, but every one is different. It's probably worth double that in the UK market.
No since the exchange rate went through the floor.
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Just an update. Talked to owner. The Europa is packed in a storage unit with stuff stacked all around it. Setting up a time to help him unpack the storage unit so I can inspect the car. Also, supposedly the twin cam was ready to be put back together (cylinders deglazed, crankshaft turned, bearings and rings purchased, etc in 1980). He says all these parts were oiled up before being put away. So, if it was stored correctly, it still may be in good shape. It sounds like the engine, transaxle, rear lid, and gas tanks are the only parts taken out of the car.
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If you need another set of eyeballs when you look at the car, let me know.
Tom
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Good luck with your purchase. These cars are so much fun to drive - like a roller skate with an engine.
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Take lots of photos of it in storage. The history of the car is as important as the car. Well, at least it makes good conversation with this group..........
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Went and saw the car today. I think it was better than I expected. The "accident " repair in the driver rear fiberglass was really undetectable inside or outside. It was a good repair like the owner stated. It is a puzzle like the pictures show. The interior was surprisingly in nice shape. I jacked it up and crawled underneath and inspected the frame. Obviously had surface rust but solid throughout. All suspension mounting points good. The paint is original and shows cracking mainly the rear half of the car. Most of the chrome is pitted. The windshield has a crack. The TC looked surprisingly in good shape and clean (bores,head,etc). I was expecting a lot of surface rust from sitting for 30 years. The only parts we couldn't find today were one of the rear half shafts, hub, and part that attaches to the 5spd. I'm sure there were other little parts that weren't there, but I wasn't sure since I've never had one of these. I'll attach pics of what I saw. Let me know what you think and if it is a manageable project. My thought is to put the puzzle back together and get it back on the road with its patina.
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This car is in there!
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74 TCS 5spd
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Not much to go on... The rear window is in good shape. The firewall is a prime part for upgrade. Some - probably the smart ones, replace it with marine plywood. The chrome is a bit of a problem as it is pretty expensive to rechrome stuff because of the environmental regulations. There are some amazing chrome paints now that actually look like chrome. There is at least one of them available in a rattle can (search chrome paint on youtube). A buddy of mine found a place that made polished stainless steel bumpers. The word I heard was that they should be covered. I'm not sure. I have polished SS B-pillar panels on my MB C230 and they're still shiny after almost ten years. I think the fuel fillers are still available.
Love to see more pictures! Good luck on your project!
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More pics
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More pics
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More pics
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More pics
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It looks like you have a lot of nice pieces! By that I mean A LOT! You'll have a good a good time restoring it. Keep us informed!
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Seems to me that there is a lot more disassembled than needs to be for an engine overhaul.
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Cams and the bucket followers ? They would be a relatively expensive part to buy new if they're not with the car as the Europa inlet cam is unique to the car. You occasionally see s/h ones and can buy new from at least one supplier in the UK.
The head looks good from the photo, corrosion around water ways is one thing I'd look for on a dismantled head; it is fixable but again relatively expensive to do. But the head looks as if it's been cleaned up after coming off the block ?
Looks a good project and I'd go along with the idea of just putting it together and seeing how it goes. I would replace all the suspension bushes though, the handling is the main aim of these things and new rubber parts aren't that expensive to replace. Or poly bushes ?
Brian
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It has the original ash tray! Buy it!
Seriously, looks like a great project car. As long as your mechanically inclined, have the shop manual and time on your hands this is worth doing. The engine reassembly is probably the most involved as their is machining to do.
Your half way to removal of the chassis, which I would do to remove all the surface rust and then paint it. And as mentioned, replace all the rubber bushings and probably the shocks and tires.
The members on this forum are extremely helpful, you will be on the road with a thurough and comprehensive understanding of the Europa mechanicals. Good luck!
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The cams, jackshaft, bucket followers, and shims were in a box and all in good shape. Yes, the car was more disassembled than I expected. It does come with a lot original paperwork and a Lotus Europa workshop manual. It even has the original toolkit.
The only parts that worry me (trying to find) are the rear hub, halfshaft, outerboard driveshaft, and the yoke that splines onto the gearbox. It seems, from what I've read, that the special has different parts than the TC.
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I have a similar situation to the OP. I have the option to buy a 74 Europa with the engine in that runs, working gearbox and brakes (sort of) for around $5000. No major structural issues that I see and the fiberglass is good; paint and interior not so much. Does this seem reasonable?
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On the face of it it seems reasonable assuming that the frame is in good shape. How is the interior? Is it a 5-speed?
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frame seems ok but I have to inspect better. Seats need reupholstering wood seems decent but not perfect. Dash and console warped from the Texas heat. Carpet is alright. Needs repainting. Engine leaks oil on the exhaust. Cooling fan not working and air box not connected to the carbs. True health of the engine is unknown, sounds choppy. Gas tanks have pinholes in the top.
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None of that seems unusual. You'll want to get a closer look at the frame, engine, and tranny. If they check out as reasonably reparable, then it sounds like a decent deal. Don't expect to be able to restore it and turn around and sell it for a profit but it sounds like a good platform for a restoration.
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Thanks for the responses. I have contacted the local Lotus club looking for a mechanic that could inspect the mechanical items. We ran the engine for about 10 minutes from a cold start, no issues with starting up, no smoke coming out of the exhaust at all. Smoke was only from the burn-off of dripping oil hitting the exhaust from a bad seal I hope.
Given that I would need to contract out a fair portion of the work it is worth it or would I be better off with one already restored in your opinion?
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Given that I would need to contract out a fair portion of the work it is worth it or would I be better off with one already restored in your opinion?
If you will have to pay a garage to do most of the work, it will end up being expensive.
IMHO, a Lotus is really best owned by someone who can look after the mechanicals himself, or you will end up paying heaps.
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If you will have to pay a garage to do most of the work, it will end up being expensive.
IMHO, a Lotus is really best owned by someone who can look after the mechanicals himself, or you will end up paying heaps.
I've got to agree with the first comment, such restorations can work out very expensive. Most of us farm out things like engine rebores, machining, etc, but do the mundane work like overhauling suspension and other stuff that you can do with spanners (and hammers :) ).
I'd say if you're confident at something like changing front or rear wheel bearings then these are ideal cars for you. If that's a job you'd leave to a garage then a restoration will cost more than the car will ultimately be worth. It may sound harsh but it's better to know what you're letting yourself in for.
Brian
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I agree with Brian and 4129R. I would also say that the Europa is a pretty simple car and if you don't feel comfortable tackling it on your own, maybe a friend can help you learn. It will surely come in handy after you get it back on the road.
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Nothing wrong with contracting out restoration work. Just choose the shop(s) carefully. It's more expensive for sure but you get the work done by people who are skilled at what they do.
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I reckon a complete strip down and rebuild is taking me around 50-60 full days work.
It you costed that out at say 6 hours a day, at £40/$50 an hour, that would equate to say 55 x 6 x £40/$50 = £13,200/$15,840 in labour alone. And that excluded the respray work and the upholstery.
Add the purchase, say $7,000 for a basket case, and $12,000 for parts, and you get a VERY expensive car. In excess of $40,000.
I am on my 3rd, 4688R. I am getting quicker, but more fussy so 4129R and 3089R will have to have more work done to make them in top condition (not concours) to maximise their value.
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I would say that is an accurate estimate of time and money. Add more dollars if you want to enhance engine performance.
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I am not opposed to doing my own work. For me it is more about time, I simply don't have the time to do my own work if it requires hours on end. Weekend jobs, no problem.
Here is my summary that I supplied to the local Lotus Group:
For the Europa enthusiasts in the crowd the car number is 3470R. I checked and it has not been logged into the registry as of yet.
Mechanical
Stromberg carbs looked OK but the airbox was disconnected and I couldn't quite tell how it would get reattached.
Cooling fan not working, car began to boil over after about 10 minutes idling
Engine has a significant oil leak while running, hitting the exhaust system and creating some burn-off. Not sure if this is a seal issue or something worse?
Engine was idling a bit rough but not terrible. He said the timing was slightly off and he had some water in the gas tank. He left the car out since Sunday and the one gas tank, maybe both, have leaks at the top. He has put a sealer on top so it is hard to see how bad it actually is.
He has fixed the brakes, sort of. The drum brakes feel like they are still making some contact; the car slowed down quickly after popping into neutral (parking brake?).
He has bypassed the OEM fuel pump in favor of an electric fuel pump.
Chassis
Unfortunately I could not get a good look at the central spine of the backbone as it was sealed up with some thick tape. I am not sure if this is a brilliant way to prevent corrosion or if it is hiding a larger problem. Where the chassis was exposed it looked decent.
Wheels
Original wheels, in surprisingly good shape. Some curb rash but I would have expected worse. Missing logo caps. The rear passenger side has two stripped lug nuts, not sure if the threading is good in the hub?
Exterior
Extensive crazing and flaking of the paint..... people pay good money for this type of Patina in California! More importantly it looks to be original paint besides the rear quarter panel where he experimented a little with changing the color. The only spider cracking that I could find was near the latch on the front hood. Some chips in the fiberglass here and there but it was in surprisingly good shape. Should be an easy repaint. The doors were stiff to open but did not feel like they sagged when opened to my surprise. The tail lights, front, and side blinkers were fully intact.
The chrome looks good as; side mirrors showed some micro-pitting but the mirror glass was good.
Glass
Windscreen has a full length crack and will need to be replaced. I would add that the drivers side window actually rolls down!
Interior
Seats need to be redone
Dash is wavy and would need to be adjusted. The wood looked faded but it seemed fully intact with minimal cracking.
The center console is warped and would need addressing. The shift knob was a bit worn and the shift boot was detached but it was there.
The carpet actually looked ok
The tach was not working, brake light was lit but I was not sure where to engage/disengage the parking brake.
The items that worry me the most are the condition of the central spine of the backbone chassis, the oil leak, and the sloppiness of the shifter (as simple as a gate plate?) I told the owner that I would not pull the tape off that day but if I was serious about the car I need to open it up to check corrosion.
So this is what I am working with.... Roger (board member) has agreed to look over the car with me since I am new to this car. I am hoping my stocks continue to go up over the next couple of trading days so that my spousal negotiations go better than yesterday!
I do have to say though that I am a bit intimidated by the above comments. It makes me appreciate the ease of ownership of my Elise and Evora!
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I hear you about the time commitment.
It would be helpful to enter your car in the lotus-europa.com registry as well as the Lotus registry with andy graham (agraham@lotuscars.com).
I suspect that the oil leak is from the rubber drain between the head and the block under and towards the rear of the carbs and the oil is dripping on the exhaust pipe on that side of the motor. I understand that it can be replaced without taking the head off.
I have a stock cooling fan I'll let go cheap, but I think the best solution is to get an aluminum radiator (available on ebay) and a good modern fan. It sounds like your motor just needs some tuning. I recommend Pertronix ignition (available from amazon) but there's nothing wrong with the standard points and condenser.
I don't know what kind of sealant the PO put on the gas tank, but unless cost is a huge issue, I would advise getting alloy tanks. Short of that, I'd get them welded up properly and in a way that water doesn't collect on the top of them. The rear drums aren't really any different from most drum brakes. They should drag a tiny bit. The parking may have been set. I'm not sure why else the car would slow down so quickly when put in neutral. The electric fuel pump is a good addition. I would also make sure that the plastic 'T' between the carbs is replaced. The air box is just bolted on to the face of the carbs. I think there are also gaskets that go between the carbs and the air box.
You can get an idea of the condition of the frame by looking at the bottom, check the condition of the frame by looking at it along the engine and you can get a bit of a view by looking in front of the engine into the 'Y' of the frame. Also, if you can, take off the elbow rest and look into the frame there. Poking around in the front - maybe take off the bottom plate between the 'T' and the nose of the car.
The body seems pretty decent. Mirrors are available - the Mach 1 Sebring mirrors are a match. The mirror covers were originally made of chrome plated pot metal or zinc but now they are plastic. If you don't like the plastic covers, I bet you can swap the mirrors from the new ones into your mirror covers.
Windscreens are available.
There are reproduction crash pads, console covers, and dashes.
The tach is probably reparable. I'll bet you can get a replacement, too.
There are a few places to look at for sloppy shift linkage. The bushings at the bottom of the shift lever where the forward end of the linkage attaches. If you have a 5-speed, there is a bushing near the engine/bell housing area that could need to be replace, and there are u-joints between the front and rear shift links and at the tranny shift shaft and the rear shift link. Those parts are available.
I think your stocks will behave for at least the short term. I don't know anything about owning an Evora or an Elise, but the Europa is a very simple car. I wouldn't be intimidated by it. After all, I built one. If I can do it, anybody can!
Good luck and keep us informed!
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BDA, you just lifted my courage on this. I am still working on the wife. She just doesn't understand the obsession but she is dealing with the loss of her garage space. She clearly needs to spend more time behind the wheel.... I know she likes the Evora; the Elise, too raw for her.
"I suspect that the oil leak is from the rubber drain between the head and the block under and towards the rear of the carbs and the oil is dripping on the exhaust pipe on that side of the motor. I understand that it can be replaced without taking the head off."
^^^this^^^ I need to get underneath there and confirm, but now I know what to look for.
I didn't take any pictures but one of our club members did. I will ask for his approval and post some if he agrees. I have to apologize for hijacking this thread but it seemed a good place to ask the initial question.
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"Extensive crazing and flaking of the paint..... (snip) Should be an easy repaint."
It can be very expensive to have a fibreglass car painted properly.
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The central spine is unlikely to be the main corrosion issue. The front crossmember, the T that supports the front suspension, is more of an issue. In any case, if you tear the tape off, you still won't see!
See you when I get back.
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Here are some pictures of the car that I have been discussing. Working on a time that works best to go back and inspect the car with help this time!
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That looks like a good project - but then they are all good projects to me! There is surely more to do than it looks like from the pictures, but it appears you have a good solid car there.
Do we know how it was stored? The paint being as bad as it is, makes it more important to get a good look at the frame since it could have spent a long time outdoors.
One thing we (or at least I) didn't mention is that the brakes will almost certainly need to be rebuilt.
I'm not good at estimating value, but ~$5000 seems reasonable. You might offer $4000 or $4500 and see if he bites. (BTW - there is a tach on ebay for $39) After all, new paint will probably be more than you pay for the car.
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Wow, that's quite original unmodified under the hood there! Still has cross over tubes, brake boosters, evap tank. Pretty rare seeing all the original equipment still in place. Should say alot about the rest of the car...
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He said it was always stored in a garage. There were no water pooling marks on the rear bonnet but it could have spent some periods of time outside. Could the paint also be from heat damage?
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That paint has the classic sun and/or crap-in-the-air damage. It certainly wasn't garaged all of it's life. Unless the garage was at a lead smelter.
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If it's been kept in a Texas garage with no a/c for many years, like mine was, all kinds of stuff could happen, like rubber perishing, paint deteriorating, but not necessarily the rust bug.
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Well, it’s been 3 years, but I finally bought it😊
The original owner was sad to let it go.
My hope is to let him drive it again soon(it’s been off the road for 40 years).
It’ll be a fun project👍
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Welcome to the nut house of Lotus Europa owners! :beerchug:
That looks like it will be a great project! When you get a chance, tell us more about your baby!
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Wow, three years to finally get it home. After reading your initial inquiry, I was wondering if it was ever going to happen, congratulations on the new project. From the pictures, it's pretty obvious who the new and old owners are. I also picked up my new project last week. Ask a lot of questions as there is a lot of collective knowledge on this forum.
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Yes, neither of us were in a hurry to sell/buy, but we stayed in touch. I wanted to document the process and wanted to get some pics with the original owner (hopefully some in the near future also). I brought home a lot of boxes of parts and will start the reassembly soon. My daughter couldn't believe how little the car was, but wouldn't sit in it yet (too dirty :confused:).
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Your car reminds me of Certified’s build. Show your daughter what it looks like when done. Start looking here for most of your jobs to come. Compliance of Certified!
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1704.0
By all means keep a running log here and in the” off topic section“ of all the fun stuff that will arise.
Dakazman
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Thank you for the link. That will definitely come in handy :beerchug: