Author Topic: Experieces in Racing an Europa  (Read 62971 times)

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Offline Mecky

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #90 on: Saturday,April 12, 2014, 02:19:56 AM »
No TSRC car is allowed on the Nürburgring Nordschleife. No matter if it is Ford GT40 or our tiny little Lotus Europa S2. The TSRC category of the FHR Langstreckencup races only at Hockenheim, Spa, Zolder and Nürburgring GP this year. There is also the FHR HTGT Trophy ( http://fhr-online.de/cms/front_content.php?idcat=74&lang=1 ), which mostly takes part at the same events, but not on the Nordschleife and with just one hour race distance.

Offline Valerio Leone

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #91 on: Saturday,April 12, 2014, 09:44:12 AM »
Well, this is a good reason to stay on GTS class.
Racing at Nürburgring Nordschleife is a dream...

ok, let pass into the kitchen  :BBQ:

 
I would like to prepare a new motor 697:

Engine block with lightened crankshaft and flywheel
Lightened rods
Domed pistons CR  11.5/1 bored to 78.9mm
Cubic capacity 1598
Alloy sump with bigger oil pump
Camshaft profile 43 73 67 37 11.5mm lift
Adjustable vernier
Ported head bench flowed
Valve train intake 40 exhaust 33
competition clutch

I will contact drivers in Italy, and if possible I would like to get in contact with Jerry Blaine, an American driver that raced in Group 4 back on 1970 in Europe.

My goal is to get photos of those race cars to proof the period specification

 
« Last Edit: Saturday,April 12, 2014, 09:54:26 AM by Valerio Leone »

Offline Serge

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #92 on: Saturday,April 12, 2014, 04:34:07 PM »
Seems like a good choice for engine upgrades. I think the 11.5:1 compression will be a bit better than the 13.5:1 you have now, it seems too high to me?

Also, I don't think you need to prove the internal specification of your engine. As long as you obey the 1971 Appendix J for engine modifications, you will be OK. Maybe that they want you to prove the DCNF carburetors? But as you already have an HTP, I wouldn't look for trouble where there isn't any.

I will tell you what I have so far for my engine, but it still needs to be built.
- custom Crower conrods
- alloy sump
- lightened steel flywheel (it's being made as we speak)

I will be having my 821 head completely flowed and bench-tested, bigger valves if he thinks it will help.
He will also help me choose my cam profile (or design a new one)
I'm hoping to use the standard clutch, but maybe a better friction material.
I was hoping to make a spacer for the oil pump (for the bigger rotor) if I can't find a bigger oil pump housing. Has anyone did this before for a renault engine? It is quite common on american V8s I read.

Serge


Offline Valerio Leone

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #93 on: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 12:36:50 AM »
Ciao Serge,
I am having a national HTP.
Basically they did't ask me any proof, but I' pretty sure that if I ask an international FIA HTP they will follow this appendix K article:

3.3 period specification

3.3.3 «Alternative components» can either be period components that are not coming from the original installation of the car make (for ex. original components from period suppliers) and replica components (for ex. replica of original components from the car make installation or replica of original components from period suppliers).
Alternative components to the original manufacturer’s specifications can only be used if it is proven that these components were allowed by the period Appendix J and/or homologation form applicable to the car concerned and, in both cases, used in that model of car in a Competition entered on the FIA International Sporting Calendar in the period.
Freedoms granted in period by Appendix J do not now confer complete freedom but rather authorise the use of modifications and/ or components actually and legally used in period on the particular make and model as a result of those period freedoms.

3.3.7 For homologated cars, original FIA homologation papers, with such extensions and variations, as were homologated in the period concerned are valid.
In addition, the rules of Appendix J of the period are valid if they cover a specification used in period as written in Article 3.3.8 for non- homologated cars.
All cars of Period J1 must also comply with Appendix XI of Appendix K.
3.3.8 For non-homologated cars, the following evidence (given in order of priority) may be admitted to prove period specification.....

So You must proof that a specific modification has been used into an international race valid per our period G2. (1970-1971)
The only Europa entered into an international race is the one that raced at Targa Florio1970.
The other Europas  raced in national championship GT in Germany and US SCCA

Offline Serge

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #94 on: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 02:07:08 AM »
I agree that what you say is correct regarding exterior modifications (like suspension and carbs), however it would be impossible to prove what compression ratio or cam grind they had, therefor you won't have to prove that.

There is a list with Europa entries here: http://www.racingsportscars.com/type/archive/Lotus/Europa.html

And there are a couple more international races (like the Sebring 12h in 1969 and an international event in Zolder) with the names of the drivers, so you can try and contact them as well.


Serge

Edit:
There are two pictures on ebay where you can see the Reggie Smith, Jr. / AJ Lilly / Don Pickett Lotus Europa at Sebring in 1969.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-8-X-10-1969-Sebring-Porsche-911-MGB-Lotus-Europa-Auto-Racing-Photo-/190789260724
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-8-X-10-1969-Sebring-MGB-Mustang-Porsche-Lotus-Europa-Racing-Photo-/190787941032
« Last Edit: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 02:14:59 AM by Serge »

Offline Valerio Leone

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #95 on: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 02:53:34 AM »
Beautiful pictures! Thanks for the advice!

regarding the inside of the engine you are totally correct.
If we take those picture from Sebring may be we can proof that wider rims  have been used.
Unfortunately they have indicated the engine displacement, that means as G1 we must use our 1470 bored + 1.2mm. (as per FIA rule).
In case we go for G1 we will be 100% sure that we cannot modify caburation manifold and header.
the rule for G1 were even more restrictive.
Sebastiani/Nardini (Targa florio) did not indicate the engine displacement. Se we can bore to 1600cc.
Unfortunately they use the original rims 4.5 inches

PS that zolder race was into a german Championship. so not valid



   
« Last Edit: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 02:55:29 AM by Valerio Leone »

Offline Serge

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #96 on: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 10:49:46 AM »
If you run in G2, what I plan to do, there are a lot more modifications that you can do. I can see no downside to begin in G2, because G1 & 2 will always race together.

Do you think you would have problems getting an international HTP with your current setup? I know the Belgian scrutineers are notoriously easy to get an HTP even without the proof.

Offline Valerio Leone

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #97 on: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 12:19:55 PM »
In G2 you can modify your car if you are able to prove the modifications allowed as Group 4. Otherwise you must follow the homologation 3028 (G2) which is basically the stock car Group 3.
As G1 we can at least use wider rims...
With my current set up it would be impossible to get an international HTP. Not because of Italian scrutineers , which are for sure as easy as the Belgians, but I know that now in Paris the FIA is running a database where they can verify the period specification quite easily.
Our dossier will go for sure to Paris since the roll bar has to be approved.
If you make a national HTP you could skip the FIA. But you cannot make any international race outside your country.
« Last Edit: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 12:44:13 PM by Valerio Leone »

Offline Serge

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #98 on: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 03:40:12 PM »
Ok, we'll need to investigate further:

Homologation form 3028: group 3 in 1970 (If I look at appendix J of 1969, 1971 wouldn't have been written at that point) = GT car
Homologation form 600: group 4 in 1970 = sportscar

So we want to use homologation 3028 if we want to race as a GT car. This (or the other) homologation form would automatically put us in category G2 (1/1/1970-31/12/1971) because the homologation would only become valid on 1/1/1970. If you would look at Appendix J of 1971 you see that Group 3 is production GT and group 4 is GTS, however I think we need to look at the earlier one.

Appendix K:
Touring,    Competition    Touring,    GT    and    GTS    cars    of    Period   
G2    (1/1/1970-31/12/1971)    onwards    must    comply    with    the   
Appendix   J   international   Competition   regulations   appropriate   to   
the   final   year   of   their   period   as   defined   in   Article   3.

So for us that's Appendix J of 1971.

However, I also found the part that you were referring to:
(b)      These   models   must   have   a   competition   history   and   the   special   
mechanical   parts   are   limited   to   those   authorised   in   the   period   
Appendix   J   rules   applicable   to   Group   3   cars   and   Article   5   (Safety).
(c)      All   modifications   must   respect   the   technology   of   the   period   as   
applied   to   that   model.
(d)      Should    these    models    have    been    subsequently    homologated   
by   the   FIA   in   Group   3,   they   may   only   use   those   mechanical   
parts    included    in    the    relevant    extension    of    the    FIA    Group   3   
Homologation   Form.

Does this "subsequently" mean that if a car has been homologated outside of the period, so let's say last year on bases of photographs (like Stefan's car)? It's not a very clear paragraph.


Also, the part about the "alternative components" is very confusing:
Alternative   components   to   the   original   manufacturer’s   specifications   
can   only   be   used   if   it   is   proven   that   these   components   were   allowed   
by   the   period   Appendix   J   and/or   homologation   form   applicable   to   
the   car   concerned   and,   in   both   cases,   used   in   that   model   of   car   in   
a   Competition   entered   on   the   FIA   International   Sporting   Calendar   in   
the   period.

I will also ask some questions on the 10/10ths forum, they will have some more answers.

Serge

« Last Edit: Sunday,April 13, 2014, 03:51:15 PM by Serge »

Offline Valerio Leone

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #99 on: Monday,April 14, 2014, 12:55:10 AM »
ciao again,

the homologation 600 is dated 1968. It sould have one extension for the model type 54 (dashboard ans so on).
This homologation is valid today as GT/GTS in period G1.
Here you can make very few modifications as the appedix J of the period was very restrictive.
For example you must use the stock exhaust manifold, but you could change the silencer.
You could use a different carburettor but you must use the stock intake manifold.
As well you could use alloy rims in larger width than the stock.
This was the configuration of the Europa that raced in Sebring 1969.
for this period you should follow today the rules valid for GTS cars (period E F and G1) written today into the appendix K 2014 which follow by 90% the appendix J of the period.
All the modifications you can make today are the one written in the omologation 600 and extensions (unfortunately there is no racing parts in this Homologation) and plus you can modify your car following the roles of the appendix J of the period.  This last is only valid if you can prove that a car ran this or that modification in an international race of that period (G1). For example now we can prove that larger wheels have been used, but we cannot prove that a different carburettor was in that car (so far).
 
In the same way the homologation 3028 is valid for the new FIA roles released in 1970.
I agree with you when you say that in the period G2 you could make much more modifications than G1, but you still have to prove that those modifications have been used on a car entered in an international race of the period G2.
3028 in fact is the Homologation for Group 3 (stock GT), if a car raced in the period G2 as Group 4 (and you have to prove it) then you can use the modifications allowed by the appendix J 1971. But in the same time you have to prove that the modification that you want to use (allowed in the appendix J 1971) have been used for real in a car entered into an iternationa race of the period G2


Now we have only two car that we can refer for modifications.

Sebring 1969 for G1.
Targa Florio 1970 for G2.

For sure the car entered Targa Florio is a Group 4 (I saw the same car entered as Group 4 into a national hillclimb in 1970). We must investigate wich kind of modifications ran this car. Unfotunately here you must use the 4.5 stock rims. That's for sure.
« Last Edit: Monday,April 14, 2014, 01:27:00 AM by Valerio Leone »

Offline Serge

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #100 on: Monday,April 14, 2014, 01:50:44 AM »
Ok, we are making progess! You are correct about needing the period proof. Are you sure that 600 is valid for G1? On the first page (that is missing) there is 1970 handwritten somewere? Not sure what that means.

So in G1 we could use the standard manifold with a weber DGxx 38 for example? I don't think 4.5 inch wheels are that much of a problem, we don't have the power to need the larger tyres. But we will need some power if we want to keep up with the rest.

We would also need to prove the use of adjustable shock absorbers (both in height (spring platforms) as in dampening) and if it's possible in aluminium as well (bot that will be a long shot).

Serge

Offline Valerio Leone

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #101 on: Monday,April 14, 2014, 03:03:47 AM »
Fiches 600 is 1968, with the extension for the type 54.

So in G1 we could use the standard manifold with a weber DGxx 38 for example?

we could use a competition carburettor in use at that period (like the 40DCNF). We cannot use flange and we must use the original mainfold attachment.
But here we have to prove that the same carburation has been used in Sebring 1969.

I don't think 4.5 inch wheels are that much of a problem, we don't have the power to need the larger tyres. But we will need some power if we want to keep up with the rest.

Well but I'm Italian, the Aesthetic come first.  ;D ;D ;D
I really want to use the G1 configuration.

We would also need to prove the use of adjustable shock absorbers (both in height (spring platforms) as in dampening) and if it's possible in aluminium as well (bot that will be a long shot).
Serge

here is a tricky part, we have to convince the FIA to allow us using the new shocks absorbers.
Just for a safety reason no more nor less.
They probably ask us to block the springs un one position then.
Looking at this photo of Targa I don't they are using adjustable shocks.


 
« Last Edit: Monday,April 14, 2014, 04:01:20 AM by Valerio Leone »

Offline Serge

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #102 on: Monday,April 14, 2014, 10:00:09 AM »
There are also a lot of results on http://touringcarracing.net/

I think that there should be a couple of international events on there. I also asked around on the 10/10ths forum and one of the people on there will contact a friend of his, who is an FIA inspector for HTPs in Belgium, to find out if we're reading the regulations correctly.


Serge

Offline Valerio Leone

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #103 on: Monday,April 14, 2014, 10:56:43 AM »
Cesana Sestriere 1969, Italy.
valid as euopean challenge Fia.
here we have large rims

Offline Valerio Leone

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Re: Experieces in Racing an Europa
« Reply #104 on: Monday,April 14, 2014, 11:44:07 AM »
here a list of Fia Hill climb where to look for lotuses.

http://www.euromontagna.com/makes.php?lng=6&make=Lotus&type=Europa
http://www.euromontagna.com/makes.php?lng=6&make=Lotus&type=Europe
http://www.euromontagna.com/driver.php?lng=6&id_driver=2114

there is a lotus europe Group 4 raced by Oscar Bubeck a swiss man in 1971. Hill climb in St Ursanne and Ollon Villars.

in the same Ollon Villars 1971 also mr Tresch (no nation) ran a lotus europa Group 4