Author Topic: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?  (Read 537 times)

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Offline Richard48Y

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Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« on: Monday,January 23, 2023, 08:14:05 PM »
I have ordered a new Spydercars frame head ("T").

The more I looked at my frame head "T" section the more dismayed I became.
At a glance it was good, but there were some very thin areas and after a good electrolysis cleaning small spots of rust-through became visible.  :(
Heavy scale between steel layers around the suspension pick-up points cannot be ignored.
It would seem that closing those off in some manner when new might have helped a lot. Maybe some "Seam Sealer"?

At a glance this repair would seem to be a fairly simple task.
Cut off the old T section, grind welds flush, and use the original flanges to alighn the new piece.
Anything that appears simple cannot be, so I have to ask where the complication will arise?
I have chassis drawings, a large flat steel build table, measuring tools and MIG/TIG welders.  :welder:
I have copper to back up welds where accessible.
I do not have a spot welder but plug welds may be better.

I bought POR-15 and Penetrol for painting and rust prevention.

I am SO anxious to cease dismantling and begin reassembly!


Offline BDA

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #1 on: Monday,January 23, 2023, 08:27:23 PM »
I think you’ll be really glad you got the Spyder ‘T’. Spot welders are not that expensive. I am not a welder but I wouldn’t think you’d need one.

I’m looking forward to your progress as you put her together!  :welder:

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #2 on: Monday,January 23, 2023, 11:04:11 PM »
Unless I screw it up and look foolish I will try to document this with pics and maybe a little video.

Offline Serge

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday,January 24, 2023, 10:33:13 AM »
Been there, not too difficult.

My video on this below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w7iyrgfdew

Offline Bryan Boyle

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday,January 24, 2023, 03:31:29 PM »
I have ordered a new Spydercars frame head ("T").

The more I looked at my frame head "T" section the more dismayed I became.
At a glance it was good, but there were some very thin areas and after a good electrolysis cleaning small spots of rust-through became visible.  :(
Heavy scale between steel layers around the suspension pick-up points cannot be ignored.
It would seem that closing those off in some manner when new might have helped a lot. Maybe some "Seam Sealer"?

At a glance this repair would seem to be a fairly simple task.
Cut off the old T section, grind welds flush, and use the original flanges to alighn the new piece.
Anything that appears simple cannot be, so I have to ask where the complication will arise?
I have chassis drawings, a large flat steel build table, measuring tools and MIG/TIG welders.  :welder:
I have copper to back up welds where accessible.
I do not have a spot welder but plug welds may be better.

I bought POR-15 and Penetrol for painting and rust prevention.

I am SO anxious to cease dismantling and begin reassembly!



BTDT (with a good OEM front box from a frame that was tweaked in the rear grafted onto a good rear with a trashed front box...make one out of two).

Print out in as large a format as you can, the chassis diagram available on lotus-europa.com or my archive backup as possible.  You WILL need the angles and measurements.

1. Make sure your surface table is level front to back and side to side.  some of the angles you'll be dealing with are 2 or 3 degrees.  Helps to start from a 0 reference.
2. grind down the welds to break the front box away and leave as much of the longitudinal box untouched as possible. 
3. Offer up the Spyder front assembly and set your angles properly.  BIG welding magnets help position the box to get your measurements.  Don't forget the diagonals (pick the same point on both sides of the box to measure to the same location at the end of the rear fork.  I used the upper suspension bushing  end to the rear of the fork to square it off.)
4. Make sure your box angle, which sets the fixed caster angle, is right on the money.
5. Tack weld one side top and bottom of same side.  Recheck the diagonals and adjust the loose side to match.
6. Tack other side and recheck diagonals and angle. 
7.  I'd use a MIG bead, not plug or spot welds, to attach the box.  across the top, down the sides. 

I'm sure I missed something; I did the last one in '09, so the memory is a bit foggy.  But, you get the idea.

Stress, though, is on ensuring the measurements and angles are correct.  That is most important.

Just my thoughts. Others, feel free to chime in.
Bryan Boyle
Fall River MA
Morrisville PA
Commercial Pilot/CFII/FAA Safety Team
Amateur Extra Class Operator & FCC Volunteer Examiner
Currently working on 3291R, ex 444R, 693R, 65/2163, 004R, 65/2678
http://www.lotuseuropa.us for mirror of lotus-europa.com manual site.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday,January 24, 2023, 05:15:55 PM »
The new part is in transit.
I am resisting the itch to go ahead and remove the old one until the new gets here.
Hoping Spydercars included at least some instruction as theirs is not identical to the original.
Big chore now is clearing the build table of the Locost 7 project.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday,January 24, 2023, 10:50:44 PM »
If I were doing that, given you already have a complete chassis then I'd try to make some sort of triangulated jig to locate on the wishbone pins and back onto the spine to keep that geometry correct. The angles we're dealing with are very small but presumably essential and it's not something where I'd rely on measurements unless I had to.  I'd imagine at some point any jig is going to be bolted together to complete the assembly but that shouldn't be a problem.

The snag is that at this point you don't know if the Spyder front end is dimensionally the same as the Lotus one. The suspension mount points will be but with a different design between the two uprights I'd be pessimistic and assume the mount to the chassis may be different. And whilst you're waiting you could knock up a fairly robust jig for when it turns up ?

Alternatively, invest in some adjustable suspension so you can set it up from scratch, at which point the welding accuracy isn't so important as long as it's strong enough ? 

Brian

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday,January 24, 2023, 11:27:03 PM »
I've got the neighbors T-Bucket/Nissan 1600 running for him so it should be leaving soon.
Then I will have space to remove the Locost from the build table.
Fixtures should not be hard as I am not afraid to put a few holes into the build table if I must.
I also have a fair amount of angle I may weld up.

Offline GavinT

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday,January 25, 2023, 08:13:12 PM »

Anything that appears simple cannot be, so I have to ask where the complication will arise?


If we were talking about dashboards, BDA would be on hand advising to seal the rear face.
My usual chant is to suggest the lower face of the backbone needs to be welded to the T section.

But I reckon you've got this anyway.  8)

Offline BDA

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday,January 25, 2023, 08:51:03 PM »

Anything that appears simple cannot be, so I have to ask where the complication will arise?


If we were talking about dashboards, BDA would be on hand advising to seal the rear face.

And all edges!  ;D

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday,January 25, 2023, 10:59:01 PM »
From the pics I have it appears one difference in the Spydercars part is that there are no open edges where layers overlap.  :)
Any I find will be sealed either by seam sealer or welding.
I am actually thinking of doing at least a light galvanize plating before install.
Not sure how effective it would be on the inside with a DIY setup.
Wondering what else might be good as a soaking treatment.
I do have POR-15 and Penetrol.
Probably the best thing I have to prevent future rust is the Nevada climate (It's a DRY heat!) and no intent to drive in the wet.  ;)

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #11 on: Thursday,January 26, 2023, 10:09:18 AM »
Do not "hot galvanize".  It will distort.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #12 on: Thursday,January 26, 2023, 12:18:35 PM »
All that I have potentially available would be an electroplate setup.
Why I said light galvanize, pretty certain I would only get a flash coating.
Not certain it would be worth the effort but should not hurt.
I am aware of the welding issue.

Offline gideon

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #13 on: Thursday,January 26, 2023, 01:46:07 PM »
The hot zinc spray process ought to be an option, though I don't see it advertised as a service.  Retropower is one company that use it on their car restorations.  Heres are some of their videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MotaWcD6ks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOx_HOwzz3E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xig7puE2j80




Offline kram350kram

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Re: Frame head (T) replacement, anyone done it?
« Reply #14 on: Thursday,January 26, 2023, 05:48:48 PM »
Look into electroless nickel plating. Gets everywhere water goes, every nook and crevice. Have done the steel motorcycle tanks. They stay rust free even without gas over long periods of being drained.