Author Topic: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff  (Read 2054 times)

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Offline Mecky

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #15 on: Monday,May 09, 2022, 02:27:18 AM »
Gavin mentioned the 369 gearbox, too.
That's right. I found that the 369 gearbox from Renault 20 or Renault 30 was available with the 4.125 (33:8 ) final drive ratio. If I could find one of those, that would be great. But as the Renault 20 and 30 were not very succesful models, the gearboxes seem to be very rare. I have also found out that there is a 385 gearbox with an even shorter final drive (4.25, 34:8 ), but that was used in the R16, thus 5 reverse gears in this case. Of course, the 37:9 ratio (4.11) as mentioned by Gavin would also be great.

The 5th gear from the 365 gearbox (29:31; 0,935), would be nice to have, but is not so absolutely necessary. The step from 4th to 5th would not be great. 3rd and 4th are a little bit too long to fit perfectly to this 5th gear. Thus, a 33:8 or 37:9 diff would be the best for me, when having also cost-effectiveness in mind. If I find one and it fits into my 395 gearbox, I'll make a party. Together with the Quaife ATB, that would gain me a lot of lap time on slower circuits like Zolder.

Thus, the most important thing for me is now, to get to know, if the shaft of the 369 bevel gear has the same spline as the 395. Is there anyone here, who can confirm or deny that?

@jbcollier: You use the Quaife diff for the 336 gearbox in your 395? I found on the internet also a Quaife diff for 5 speed Europas. But it has another dimension (crown wheel spigot dia 110 instead of 104 mm). Thus, will this only fit the newer gearbox generations like NG3? Please refer to attached sketches.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #16 on: Monday,May 09, 2022, 09:41:59 AM »
The mounting circle for the 336 transaxles is smaller than that for the 365 transaxles.  That is why they are advertised as for 4spd (336) or 5spd (365).  The 395 uses the same mounting circle as the 336.

The early 395 also has a 0.93 5th.  It is VERY close to the 395’s 4th.

AFAIK, the 369 is more like an NG series than a 3-series so parts will not easily swap into a 395.

Offline Mecky

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #17 on: Monday,May 09, 2022, 10:04:05 AM »
The mounting circle for the 336 transaxles is smaller than that for the 365 transaxles.  That is why they are advertised as for 4spd (336) or 5spd (365).  The 395 uses the same mounting circle as the 336.

The early 395 also has a 0.93 5th.  It is VERY close to the 395’s 4th.

AFAIK, the 369 is more like an NG series than a 3-series so parts will not easily swap into a 395.
Thank you JB, that means that there is no plug & play solution for a shorter final drive, which fits into my gearbox. But I have got in touch with somebody, who is said to be able to fit NG-X parts into 3XX gearboxes. Maybe I'm lucky, but it won't be cheap.

Again, thank you for the info regarding 336 and 365 diff PCDs. Thus, I'll purchase a Quaife ATB intended to be used in the 336. :pirate:

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #18 on: Monday,May 09, 2022, 12:33:03 PM »
The Alpine crowd also love the 365 boxes which are pure unobtainium in Alpine spec.  They swap the gears and shafts from R17s into a suitable transaxle housing and cut-n-shut the right pinion gear to the shaft. So you could do the same with yours if you can find a lower R12/15/17/ diff gears.

Don’t order the ATB diff until you know what size of diff gears you’ll actually be using.

If you do find someone who can do all this machining and mixing-n-matching, do let us know.  I’m thinking of hitting up the NA hot rod crowd but that would involve a steep learning curve on their part.  Someone who already does it would be well worth shipping things to.

Offline GavinT

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #19 on: Monday,May 09, 2022, 09:42:09 PM »
If I recall, there was a guy in Scotland who did cut 'n' shut transaxle shafts for the Renault and Alpine crowd but that he's now retired.
I reckon Salv Sacco would be worth talking to.

Offline Mecky

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday,May 10, 2022, 12:25:33 AM »
The Alpine crowd also love the 365 boxes which are pure unobtainium in Alpine spec.  They swap the gears and shafts from R17s into a suitable transaxle housing and cut-n-shut the right pinion gear to the shaft. So you could do the same with yours if you can find a lower R12/15/17/ diff gears.

Don’t order the ATB diff until you know what size of diff gears you’ll actually be using.

If you do find someone who can do all this machining and mixing-n-matching, do let us know.  I’m thinking of hitting up the NA hot rod crowd but that would involve a steep learning curve on their part.  Someone who already does it would be well worth shipping things to.
I guess, I understood something wrong. This guy is specialiced in Alpine and Gordini Renaults and races an original R8 Gordini. He suggested that the primary shaft and gears from a 365 would be best for me with a 5th gear of around 1.03. He told me that my 34:9 final drive is the shortest, which fits into a 395 gearbox. So I guess, he does not offer a cut'n'shut solution. But in the moment, he has no 365 gearbox or parts to offer.

Offline GavinT

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #21 on: Thursday,May 12, 2022, 10:40:52 AM »
G'day Stefan,

Here's a 365 transaxle fitted with straight cut gears posted on Transconcept's Facebook page.
I've asked them if these gear sets are available or if this a refurbishment for a customer.
From their web site it appears they may offer gears sets for a 395 as well.

Transconcept are in France.
France is 15,000 km from me but these guys must be just down the road from you - hint, hint.  ;)

Here's their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/Transconcept-592728630768017/

Web Site:

https://www.transconcept.fr/index.php

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #22 on: Thursday,May 12, 2022, 12:20:10 PM »
Very cool!  Thanks.

I have driven a number of straight-cut-gear boxes.  Race only.  They just SCREAM.

Offline SwiftDB4

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #23 on: Thursday,May 12, 2022, 12:41:02 PM »
Not only are the gears straight cut, but it's a dog engagement non synchro. Wouldn't be a problem for Mecky.
Interesting possibility.

Offline BDA

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #24 on: Thursday,May 12, 2022, 01:05:46 PM »
Assuming the ratios that are offered are any good for him, that should be great and shift really quickly!

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #25 on: Thursday,May 12, 2022, 02:19:38 PM »
Absolutely!

Offline GavinT

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #26 on: Thursday,May 12, 2022, 03:53:50 PM »
Yes they scream alright - no good for most of us but should be fine for Stefan. Also, straight cut gears are cheaper than the helicals as we all know.

I'd expect ratios could well be suitable since much of this competition stuff goes into Alpines these days - mostly road rallies and the like.

Anyway, here's hoping. I've also sent Transconcept a PM and will report back.


Offline GavinT

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday,May 17, 2022, 07:14:23 AM »
After a couple of false starts, Transconcept supplied this info.
My French is nonexistent, so a volunteer for a meaningful translation would be good.  :)

I have a feeling the Transconcept guys are much like many specialised businesses, Richard Winter being a case in point.
Ya gotta call in and talk to them.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday,May 17, 2022, 07:53:10 AM »
Remember that their very tempting crown and pinion sets will turn the other way (I think).

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Upgrading 395 Gearbox with Shorter Ratios & Limited Slip Diff
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday,May 17, 2022, 07:54:08 AM »
To translate just use google-translate and your phone’s camera.