Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Cheguava on Friday,April 26, 2024, 12:34:28 PM
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Starting with the restoration of my currently derelict, originally Pistachio / Lime Green TC, now the last but 1 owner, who had it from 1980-2004 had visited to see it and offer advice. Also spoke to the owner from 2004-2024, who bought it, then bought an American TCS and left this one under a sheet for 20 years, which explains why mine how has Federal rear light units at least.
Fair to say the first bits of stripping down have had more down than upsides. I'll either need complete UK light units or UK lenses and modify the units to suit them. Side repeaters are knacked and won't come out (Dr Dremel is going to visit them) and the alternator is seized, which is understandable, but I can't see a reference to it online - Delco DN460? **EDIT** Have now found the DN460, also fitted to TR6 and some Spitfires, at £300+ will work on freeing mine first.
There was good news though. The football sized wasp nest in the rear corner had been abandoned by its occupants. Yay! Off for a few days while I plan the campaign to strip and separate the body from the chassis, using the fine guide on this site. Will post progress, forwards and backwards, on this thread.
Does anyone know what type of ignition key would be required for a 71 TC? There's a number inside the lock but I'm unsure of the key type, it's a Waso lock but I can't narrow it down further.
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Congratulations on your first step in you journey!! I'm really glad the wasps (hornets?) left before you took delivery!
Our own My S1 found a place to buy keys in the UK, https://www.keytrader.co.uk/. I don't know if they know which blanks you need but you can give them a call. The usual suspects in the UK probably sell key blanks too (SJ Sports Cars, Kelvedon Lotus, Lotus Supplies, etc.). The Lotus archivist may be able to find which number keys your car used and Lotus might be able to help with the particular key numbers (to reproduce your original keys). Here's his address: AGraham at lotuscars dot com.
Good luck!
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Thanks BDA. I've already contacted Andy at Lotus to pass him the car's details for their register, worth asking the question about key numbers, but I'll wait until I get the door locks out as I understand those numbers are possibly on the barrels.
Cheers, Jeff
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alternator is seized, which is understandable, but I can't see a reference to it online - Delco DN460? **EDIT** Have now found the DN460, also fitted to TR6 and some Spitfires, at £300+ will work on freeing mine first.
I can't help on the keys but maybe on the alternator. IIRC some folks have had their originals overhauled so that is one option. I decided not to and when mine failed I simply fitted a Lucas 17ACR instead and modified the wiring. That's a very tight fit but the 16ACR is slightly smaller and in hindsight would have been the better option. The 17ACR lasted for a while until I saw a more modern Lucas A127 for £55 on Ebay so I got one of those to replace the 17ACR. The A127 is a very good fit for the car and comes in several outputs, some of which are probably too great for the car's wiring should you ever achieve the maximum charge rate.
This is how it went together;
http://www.martley.plus.com/lotusland2016/europa/16europa03.html (http://www.martley.plus.com/lotusland2016/europa/16europa03.html)
(it's a very old and quaint website, but it's about the details not the coding !)
Brian
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Hi Brian, that is really helpful info on the alternator - I'm spoilt for choice now!
Thanks for the link to your website, which is fantastic - no idea what you mean about Yorkshire Pennine weather though. :)) Many happy hours of reading ahead - looks like you've done all the stuff I'm going to have to go through. Massive help.
Best wishes,
Jeff
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..... some of which are probably too great for the car's wiring should you ever achieve the maximum charge rate.
That's something I've wondered about.
I don't know the gauge or amps rating of the 'big' brown wire, but is it much different to normal cars running a 70 amp alternator?
At a glance, it doesn't seem so but I'm no expert.
Enquiring minds and all that...
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That's something I've wondered about.
I don't know the gauge or amps rating of the 'big' brown wire, but is it much different to normal cars running a 70 amp alternator?
At a glance, it doesn't seem so but I'm no expert.
Enquiring minds and all that...
When I fitted the A127 it comes in several ratings (55/65/70/?? IIRC), the higher ones don't use the spade terminal plug but are stud connections with, from the photos I saw, fairly chunky wiring. There are plenty of cable guides on the internet but most of them stopped at 50amps. I did find one supplier that gave a 70amp rating and that was massive, almost 8mm and I don't think I've ever seen that in a car before.
https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/p/standard-cable (https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/p/standard-cable)
To be honest it's mostly above my head. I could never grasp electronics, if I can't see it, touch it or hit it, then it's black magic. After reading about wire lengths/diameters/voltage drops I guessed the big problems were voltage drops or the wire getting overheated. With the ammeter in the dash and what's probably a longer cable run than most cars I figured Lotus had probably sized their cable on a 30amp rating (5mm on that chart). But as I'd never seen anywhere near 30amps before I just put the A127 in and watched the ammeter. It works and after running for what's now several years (2016) there's no visible problems on the brown wires, so technically correct or not, it seems to work ok.
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I would not run 70 amps through the stock wiring and amp gauge. If you go 70 amps, bin the ammeter and just join all its wires together (not the wires for the bulb), fit a voltmeter, and run a short, fat wire from the alt to the battery.
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Having just finished re-wiring, I have few comments.
If you want a historically correct restoration ignore the rest of this post and just repair what you have.
I wanted to take advantage of modern technology in any way that did not change the character and general look of the car.
On my 70 S2 some wire was internally damaged and over 50% of the connections were corroded or failed. I removed the amp meter (not really necessary if you sort out the electrical system, I replaced it with an air / fuel meter and added an idiot light). Also remove the high current coil wire that runs through the tach (there are several posts, on this site, on how to do this. It dramatically reduces the electrical noise in the car allowing a radio to work properly).
I sized my wire by using the length and resistance of the wire (many tables on line) to find the wire gauge that results in .5V of voltage drop at max current. Voltage drop = Max Current X Total Resistance. Total resistance includes the wire to the battery, wire to ground, and any switches or connections on the way. A good clean flat connector or switch will be less than .05 ohms. Good solder connections are 0 ohms.
If you remove the ammeter the only high current connections / lines go to the radiator fan, cabin fan, headlights and starter. I added relays to front area so the cabin switches just turn on the relays.
I replaced the alternator with a mini-denso 70A ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/151571437369. ) .Smaller, lighter, more current, internally regulated. Some fab for the mounting is needed. Link to dimensions https://www.amazon.com/DENSO-EXCITING-ALTERNATOR-MOUNT-1-WIRE/dp/B00DMS4YIG.
But ..... I have heard you can simply buy a new wiring harness and move on.
Ron
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Agree, Brian, I guess the potential danger of a high output alternator might be a situation where the battery is low or defective and the alt decides to pump 50/70 amps up that wire and through the dash for five or ten minutes straight.
Noted, JB. I've related my experience previously - my car came with a cheap & cheerful ammeter with an offensive red needle so I purchased a new Smiths 30/30 unit (couldn't find a Lucas one).
Much later, I noticed the new ammeter 'can' had deformed & partially caved in, although it was still working. The can was plastic and looked to have suffered a heat event. Wiring connections checked out OK so it might have been an internal connection issue. All this happened out of the blue.
Thanks for the info and links, Ron. Those mini-Denso style alternators seem to be the popular choice.
My original wiring harness was in pretty decent shape so perhaps a fat wire for the alternator and a voltmeter is the direction I should be headed.
Apologies for the hijack, Cheguava.
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Hi
Great to see you are making progress with the car. I am sure it will have plenty of secrets to give up, as will mine 3940R. We are both starting at the same time and pretty much from the same point.
All the best
Berni
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Cracked on with the strip down today - not *entirely* plain sailing tbh. With the car having sat for 20 years, every metal part in the front end was rusted, and not much looks to be salvageable. The bumper bolts were a particular pain, but luckily there was just room to get a junior hacksaw in the gap between bumper and bolt dome, and cut them off without damaging the bumper, which will need rechroming, but at least it's straight and undamaged.
Thanks for all the encouragement and info - this is a fantastic knowledge source and I'm finding out so much that's of help in this restoration.
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Looking at those photos, I can see what you're going to be doing this Bank Holiday. I think my tools of choice there would be angle grinder, dremel and nut splitters.... :)
Depending on whether you want an original restoration or a car which looks outwardly original but has more modern components, you could consider newer alternatives for some of those rusty bits. If you scan around this forum you'll see that a lot of owners modify their Europa, probably more so than the 60s Elan owners, and even then most changes are reversible should these cars ever get to Ferrari prices.
Some things are worth doing anyway, for example the fans in the front for the radiator and blower for the front plenum chamber were never that wonderful and you could fit modern replacements making them more efficient as well as saving time/money on restoring the old ones. Another example, I replaced the rusty steel grille in the wheel arch with a polypropylene one and it's still there 30+ yrs later !
Brian
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Brian, you are absolutely spot on. Cut and remove will be the order of the day. I'm not set on originality at all cost, particularly on the blower set up which appears bizarre, and presumably loses effectiveness if you should use the plenum chamber for storage on a trip? I'll be combing through the site looking for alternatives. One version I saw on a car currently for sale intrigued me - looks very tidy but presumably very little air would make its way to the vents at either end of the dash... Plenty of time to consider options though.
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That would work for the heater but you won’t get any ventilation from your eyeball vents.
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As BDA says, that example would clear the screen but you'd only get warm air and nothing from the side vents.
And those side vents are very good when you're on the move, with the windows up you'll get a nice flow of cold air on your face without using the blower, it's one of the best designs on the cars. In fact I reckon it's better than a lot of more recent cars, with the Europa it's very easy to get warm air on your feet and cold on the face.
Personally I'd avoid anything which reduces space in the front plenum. We've used our car to go away in and always ended up with stuff in the front and rear compartments.
As for the blower motor, I fitted a Honda PS125 motorbike radiator fan. It's 12v, far less bulky than the OEM Lotus one and was as cheap as chips.
Brian
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Thanks BDA and Brian - I did wonder if that tube would stop air getting to the dash vents. Thanks for the tip about motorcycle fans too, eBay is awash with them at reasonable prices, so looks like a plan for the rebuild.
Made more progress today, deployed the angry spanner on some of the nuts and bolts that would not undo and removed the radiator, air horns, blower, and (just using a socket!) the chin spoiler. Having to jack up the car and remove the n/s front wheel to attack the air horn fixings revealed just how much is going to need doing once I get to the Meccano phase, but I also noticed how much the light shines through the body tub, like a magic lantern. Is this standard added lightness, or has some coating fallen off?
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That looks pretty bad!!! I can see you have your work cut out for you!
Don't be alarmed by the light shining through your fiberglass. It just means that the paint has come off one or the other (or both) sides of the fiberglass there.
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If you aren’t patient now, you will be! The majority of the parts on my TCST project have been a challenge to get off and/or apart…..thankfully they are simple cars 8)
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That looks pretty bad!!! I can see you have your work cut out for you!
Don't be alarmed by the light shining through your fiberglass. It just means that the paint has come off one or the other (or both) sides of the fiberglass there.
Yeah - I knew that it was going to need work to the front of the chassis, and not having been on the road for 20 years, would need a lot replacing, and that's absolutely the case.
Thanks for confirming about the fibreglass, that's going in the "good news" category! Looks like I'll need some suitable stonechip that will adhere to fibreglass.
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On the TCs and TCSs there was a stone guard (a piece of screen) bonded under the front fender above the tire. The S1s and S2s didn’t seem to have them. Other than those, I don’t think you need much else. I’ve heard of some using pickup truck bed liner in places like under fenders and it can protect the fiberglass from stones.
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As I understand it, that under fender stone guard is a fiberboard like the door sill closing plates. But my TCS didn’t have it, due to incomplete repairs in the past. So I’m open to being convinced. The truck bed liner approach also sounds good.
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I think you’re right about the fiberboard. That’s more in line with Lotus practice than screen.
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I’ve heard of some using pickup truck bed liner in places like under fenders and it can protect the fiberglass from stones.
Sounds like a plan, should be pretty tough. Been out today but did a bit more this evening - front end cleared so inside now. I'd forgotten what an emotional rollercoaster restoration is. Getting the passenger seat out was the usual mix - sill side nuts just turning underneath, and couldn't see the bolt heads, but then realised the seat runners had disintegrated and not holding it. Front inside came off - nyloc nut! :trophy: Rear inside just twisted though, and had to grind it off. Seat frame looks of, but now need a set of runners.
More daft questions - whilst lying on the floor to get at the seat fixings, I noticed a hole below the passenger door - no idea what it's doing there or why anyone made it - can't see what it would access. And there was a plaque riveted to the n/s sill at some stage, any ideas what was there?
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That hole under the door looks like the access tot he door hinge pin. Looking up it, does it align with the hinge bobbins in the body?
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That hole under the door looks like the access tot he door hinge pin. Looking up it, does it align with the hinge bobbins in the body?
Good shout - there's a "matching" but tidier hole on the driver's side, and I can feel the bottom of the hinge through the hole.
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Yep, looks like the access hole to remove the door pin (now there's a job to look forward to :) )
If you get underneath & look up you should see the bottom of the 1/2" steel door pin. This is threaded (1/4" ?) which you can make up a slide hammer arrangement to pull it down/out with the car in the air. In practice, if this is the first time around then it's more than likely rusted solid, release fluid might get it loose but be prepared to cut it away or get mole grips from inside the door to get it started.
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Thanks again Brian - a job that will be coming up in the next month or two as I need to deliver it to the sprayers with doors removed - they were particular about that - it's almost like they knew! ;D
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The ends of the hinge pins are tapped in 5/16 coarse IIRC. That should help when you are ready to take them out.
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5/16" UNF, I thought?
Anyway, no matter . . . if the front hub pic is an indication of general condition, save yourself some time, aggravation and possible damage to the bobbins or the fibreglass it's mounted in.
Use a hacksaw blade or a reciprocating saw to cut them out.
Much better to sacrifice a couple of pieces of cheap 1/2" steel rod than risking some of the potential down sides, I reckon.
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Thanks to all for the input on the door pins. I suspect it'll end up as a hacksaw job, given the way everything else not made of fibreglass seems to have fared...
Worked on with the stripdown this afternoon, another session of mixed progress. :-X N/s door is now stripped of its door card, internal door locking mechanism, striker and electric winder motor. Drilled out the various rivets, and dug out the mastic round the frame, which is now loose as far as the quarterlight glass, which is not feeling like it wants to move. Am I missing something here? Do I need to winkle out the rubber seal round the glass? Don't want to break anything, so have left it overnight to read up on.
The electric window winder wouldn't work when I tested it, but you could hear the motor trying both ways. Will separate the motor and mechanism tomorrow and hopefully it's just the mechanism gunged or rusted up, and will free off.
Removed the remains of the seat runner fixings, carpet and underlay/sound deadening, and looked at the seat belt. The buckle mount was not even fixed in, sill mount for the belt will not unfasten so far - I fear the problems that EuropaTC (Brian) had with the strengthening plate may be a problem for me too. Will have a look from the wheelarch, where I will also have to retrieve the door catch that fell into the void!
Finally removed the centre console, which as you can see has had a tough life. plan is to strip it back, fibreglass it up to put the strength back in it, and re-cover it. However, if I delete the ashtray then I can put a screen or phone mount in the space freed up, as a nod to the 21st century.
Sorry if this sounds a bit whingy - I can't afford a Lotus and a therapist. ;D Back to it tomorrow.
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There is a very little fastener on the bottom edge of the triangular frame. It might be a rivet. But I used a #2 machine screw and nut when putting it back together. I think its in the front corner. But it's been a while.
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It could be hiding under the rubber surround for the glass.
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There is a very little fastener on the bottom edge of the triangular frame. It might be a rivet. But I used a #2 machine screw and nut when putting it back together. I think its in the front corner. But it's been a while.
Pretty sure I got that one, had a tiny cross-head screw in it which turned but wouldn't screw out, so dremelled the head off it. Wondering if someone has bonded the quarterlight frame to the door frame. Will have another look tomorrow when my patience is replenished and I don't try and rip it off.
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Yes, that's the one. I dremelled off the heads of the originals, too. For mine, the quarter light frame was gooped with the same mastic as the movable window frame.
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Yes, that's the one. I dremelled off the heads of the originals, too. For mine, the quarter light frame was gooped with the same mastic as the movable window frame.
That's useful to know, I think that must be what's holding mine in - will try and run a Stanley knife between the quarterlight and door frame tomorrow.
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Deffo the right decision to sleep and try again in the morning. Managed to ease out the vertical rubber for the quarterlight, and get the glass and then the other two rubbers out. Still couldn't budge the frame, but removal of the quarterlight rubbers revealed a rivet that someone had put through the door frame into the side of the metal channel. Drilled that out and the frame came out.
More progress, the electric window mechanism got cleaned up and moves up and down through its full range, not massively quickly so might still need to check the motor gears and bearing to see if they need fresh grease, but most definitely calling that a win
Finally, the inevitable daft question. There is a crack in the front lip of the "bonnet" surround, as shown in the photo, which needs repairing and probably a bit of lightening subtraction by building the fibreglass up a little behind it. Can I just check that there's nothing missing here - it's just the shape of the fibreglass supporting the panel?
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That’s the bonnet itself? I had to do that repair also. Yes, it’s just that skirt that stiffens the front edge. Make sure when you reattach the hinge bolts that there is some clearance, or slop in the joints so they don’t pull the bonnet corners out. The parts book calls for a nylon(?) washer between the body and bonnet corners that might help keep the clearance right. A bit of a pain to install.
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That’s the bonnet itself? I had to do that repair also. Yes, it’s just that skirt that stiffens the front edge. Make sure when you reattach the hinge bolts that there is some clearance, or slop in the joints so they don’t pull the bonnet corners out. The parts book calls for a nylon(?) washer between the body and bonnet corners that might help keep the clearance right. A bit of a pain to install.
Hi, sorry I probably misdirected you - it's the panel in front of the bonnet behind where the badge is mounted. Similar repair I'd guess.
Thanks for the tip on reassembly - already having nightmares about reassembling this after it's had a professional respray - rolls and rolls of low tack masking tape going to be involved I think, plus domestic lifting assistance. :D
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Sorry if this sounds a bit whingy - I can't afford a Lotus and a therapist.
That's why we're here. ;)
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More progress, the electric window mechanism got cleaned up and moves up and down through its full range, not massively quickly so might still need to check the motor gears and bearing to see if they need fresh grease, but most definitely calling that a win
Ok, I know you're a fair way away from putting the motors back into the doors but when you do, consider fitting relays with a heavy gauge feed to operate the motors. I did that, two small relays (up/down) and it made a phenomenal difference to the speed they operate. Heck, they're like a normal car now ! The bonus is that you're also taking the motor current away from the switches so in theory they should last forever now.
Brian
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I also noticed a minor detail that affected my motors' speed. At the end of the swing arm that raises/lowers the window is a small plastic wheel. The bearing of mine was absolutely caked with dried grease. It took a while to flush out the 50 year old grease. But, re-greased, it now it rolls easily and provides just that little bit less friction in the window mechanism.
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EuropaTC’s relay idea is great (and one day I’ll get around to implementing it on my car!) and combining that with a more modern window lift motor might be even better! (https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=971.msg7591#msg7591)
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Ok, I know you're a fair way away from putting the motors back into the doors but when you do, consider fitting relays with a heavy gauge feed to operate the motors. I did that, two small relays (up/down) and it made a phenomenal difference to the speed they operate. Heck, they're like a normal car now ! The bonus is that you're also taking the motor current away from the switches so in theory they should last forever now.
Brian
That's another very good shout, and pre-empted a question that was already forming in my mind. I was testing the winding mechanism using a 6A battery charger I had, and the current being drawn was in excess of 6A, reinforced by the charger cutting out after half a dozen cycles (oops). So I was wondering just how much current was being drawn, albeit for "only" 10-20 seconds - probably a bit much more than the wiring enjoys. Was already going to add relays to the headlights, looks like another good candidate.
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I also noticed a minor detail that affected my motors' speed. At the end of the swing arm that raises/lowers the window is a small plastic wheel. The bearing of mine was absolutely caked with dried grease. It took a while to flush out the 50 year old grease. But, re-greased, it now it rolls easily and provides just that little bit less friction in the window mechanism.
Thanks - I'll check that out too. Every little helps!
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Thanks to all for the input on the door pins. I suspect it'll end up as a hacksaw job, given the way everything else not made of fibreglass seems to have fared...
Worked on with the stripdown this afternoon, another session of mixed progress. :-X N/s door is now stripped of its door card, internal door locking mechanism, striker and electric winder motor. Drilled out the various rivets, and dug out the mastic round the frame, which is now loose as far as the quarterlight glass, which is not feeling like it wants to move. Am I missing something here? Do I need to winkle out the rubber seal round the glass? Don't want to break anything, so have left it overnight to read up on.
The electric window winder wouldn't work when I tested it, but you could hear the motor trying both ways. Will separate the motor and mechanism tomorrow and hopefully it's just the mechanism gunged or rusted up, and will free off.
Removed the remains of the seat runner fixings, carpet and underlay/sound deadening, and looked at the seat belt. The buckle mount was not even fixed in, sill mount for the belt will not unfasten so far - I fear the problems that EuropaTC (Brian) had with the strengthening plate may be a problem for me too. Will have a look from the wheelarch, where I will also have to retrieve the door catch that fell into the void!
Finally removed the centre console, which as you can see has had a tough life. plan is to strip it back, fibreglass it up to put the strength back in it, and re-cover it. However, if I delete the ashtray then I can put a screen or phone mount in the space freed up, as a nod to the 21st century.
Sorry if this sounds a bit whingy - I can't afford a Lotus and a therapist. ;D Back to it tomorrow.
I first want to say making a mold of the console is pretty easy. I did what your suggesting with a much less complete donor. I elimated the ashtray and added A/C vents.
Then you mentioned ,"stripdown", ...I hope not with chemical strippers to remove paint. fingers crossed.
dakazman
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I first want to say making a mold of the console is pretty easy. I did what your suggesting with a much less complete donor. I elimated the ashtray and added A/C vents.
Then you mentioned ,"stripdown", ...I hope not with chemical strippers to remove paint. fingers crossed.
dakazman
Hi, thanks for the suggestion. I think that it would be easier to repair what I have than make a mold and duplicate it, particularly as I will then cover the console and my repairs with vinyl. Have you got a pic of your modified console? If it's already on here I can search for it.
No fears of using chemicals - the stripdown referred to the removal of all parts from the shell. Then I've got to rub it down as best as I can before handing it to the bodyshop, for its return to gleaming L13.
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I first want to say making a mold of the console is pretty easy. I did what your suggesting with a much less complete donor. I elimated the ashtray and added A/C vents.
Then you mentioned ,"stripdown", ...I hope not with chemical strippers to remove paint. fingers crossed.
dakazman
Hi, thanks for the suggestion. I think that it would be easier to repair what I have than make a mold and duplicate it, particularly as I will then cover the console and my repairs with vinyl. Have you got a pic of your modified console? If it's already on here I can search for it.
No fears of using chemicals - the stripdown referred to the removal of all parts from the shell. Then I've got to rub it down as best as I can before handing it to the bodyshop, for its return to gleaming L13.
Repairing with fiberglass won't work. I've seen that a few times...the patch just peels off. The console is ABS plastic, which is a PITA to repair, and requires adhesives specifically made for ABS. There are various glues you can get at the big box hardware stores which will work...look in the plumbing supply aisle where you will find them. You WILL have to cover the faces after you put all the pieces back together/fix cracks/etc. but covering it after fixing is probably the best course of action (unless you come upon an unmolested/cracked example...I just gave away my last solid console a couple weeks ago from my stash.)
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Repairing with fiberglass won't work. I've seen that a few times...the patch just peels off. The console is ABS plastic, which is a PITA to repair, and requires adhesives specifically made for ABS. There are various glues you can get at the big box hardware stores which will work...look in the plumbing supply aisle where you will find them. You WILL have to cover the faces after you put all the pieces back together/fix cracks/etc. but covering it after fixing is probably the best course of action (unless you come upon an unmolested/cracked example...I just gave away my last solid console a couple weeks ago from my stash.)
Thanks for this Bryan - I had just assumed it was fibreglass when the complete absence of fibres in it should have alerted me different. D'oh! I'll look out for suitable adhesive - info very much appreciated.
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Stripping out of the interior continues, but it was too hot to work in the garage today, so spent some time cleaning up the passenger seat to see how it would come up. Still needs another clean or two, and the foam and backing boards on the seat bases and possibly the back need replacing, but I think the cover is savable.
The problem I have is that the driver's seat has some damage to the bolster, and the seat back cushion. And although Martrim in the UK seem to sell the basketweave vinyl, it doesn't have the "ribs" which seem to be melted in, which gives me a dilemma. Do I try and replicate the ribs using heat application, or does anyone know if the right material is available elsewhere? Or do I recover both seats, which would be a shame - I'm assuming that the vinyl is original? I really want to get the seats "right" if I can, they're as 70's as an orange Spangle!
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Hi
That seat looks really rather good. I wonder if it has had some work done to it in the past? I'm no expert, but the backrest section is one piece, and it looks like the top section may have had work. I wish mine were in such good condition. I am looking for someone in the South East to do mine so if anyone knows someone reasonable please chip in. I know people sometimes go to sofa makers for this type of work, but I'm not sure that would be a great idea.
All the best
Berni
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Hi Berni, I'm not sure if my seats have had work or not. I found another K reg Twin Cam that an auctioneer was selling as having original seats (pinch of salt and all that) which also has a 2 piece rear cushion, with the same pattern, when I was looking for seat covers. Factory variant? Same aftermarket repairer? Could be either, tbf.
There's a local upholsterer to me who does motorbike seats etc - if I can't find suitable covers I think I'll get some of the basketweave vinyl and see if he fancies a go.
Cheers,
Jeff
https://hofmanns.co.uk/sold-car/lotus-europa-twin-cam/
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You can get new upholstery covers from Lotus Supplies in the UK. I bought them about a year ago... took a couple of months to get them, as they have several options and they're not in stock. They have to be made. 153 GBP each. They look well fabricated, but I haven't installed them yet.
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About the console, I made the one in the photo below. Not fancy. I made it 35 years ago, before I parked the car for 30 years. :) My fabrication skills are much improved now, but that has worked well and looks good from the top side. Made of cheap plywood and covered with poor-quality vinyl. I'd use better quality materials now. The arm pad though is covered with leather, and I like it.
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Hi Fotog - thanks for this. It's difficult to see from the low res picture on their website (below) whether or not the vinyl pattern is the same, or if the cushion splits are the same - at £153 a seat it wouldn't be the worst thing to do both sides if they looked stock, but I'd still prefer to keep it as original as possible. Tried to call but they were busy, so will drop them an email. Lots of other stuff on their site I'll be needing!
You made a nice job of the console - your interior looks like a nice place to be! Having watched a few YouTube videos however, I've convinced myself that I can be an ABS plastic repair expert :FUNNY: and am going to repair and modify the original. Will post progress on that when I get to it - should give us all a laugh!
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Hi Cheguava
I also tried to get Banks and have emailed them about the covers. They do not have a pic of the black two section seats but the oatmeal ones look like this. I have my original fairly crappy foams, I wonder how difficult it would be to copy them in a more modern seating foam?
Its great to see you tackling these issues as I will be doing many of the same tasks. I may well investigate my centre console next as well.
All the best
Berni
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Hi Cheguava
I also tried to get Banks and have emailed them about the covers. They do not have a pic of the black two section seats but the oatmeal ones look like this. I have my original fairly crappy foams, I wonder how difficult it would be to copy them in a more modern seating foam?
Its great to see you tackling these issues as I will be doing many of the same tasks. I may well investigate my centre console next as well.
All the best
Berni
I'm feeling the same way about your resto - will keep sharing progress and if I hear back from Banks will let you know.
I stripped the driver's seat back to the shell today, ready for a coat of Hydrate 80 - it's survived pretty well considering. Trying to keep it moving a little on days when I've got some time to spend on it.
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Just for your reference, here are some photos of the seat-back and bottom upholstery pieces I got from Europa Supplies (ex- Banks).
Regarding the company, I have bought from both them and SJSportscars. Both can be responsive when you're looking to order; not so much once you've placed your order. Not very impressive, but ultimately I got my stuff from both of them.
Notice that I say "can be...". Not sure that they always are responsive when ordering.
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Just for your reference, here are some photos of the seat-back and bottom upholstery pieces I got from Europa Supplies (ex- Banks).
Regarding the company, I have bought from both them and SJSportscars. Both can be responsive when you're looking to order; not so much once you've placed your order. Not very impressive, but ultimately I got my stuff from both of them.
Notice that I say "can be...". Not sure that they always are responsive when ordering.
Thank you for posting those pics - super helpful. Confirms that the vinyl matches the seats that are in, and has the same backing. I'll follow up with Banks. I don't mind waiting a bit, as I've got plenty of other bits to be working on! But would be good to get orders in now so it doesn't hold it back later.
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They offer different styles, including that made with non-perforated vinyl, like my originals. You could send a photo to them to be specific about what you want.
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You could send a photo to them to be specific about what you want.
I'm afraid I was *that* person - sent them a picture of my seats and asked if theirs were the same! In my mind I was being helpful. ;D
I'll see how helpful they found it when I get a response.
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So, set myself the task of getting the dashboard out today, should be easy given it only occupies half a dozen lines in the manual. Wrestled off the steering wheel (prior application of release spray then rocking it at various different opposing points did the trick) and got the steering clamp off before the serious business set in. The inner dash screws in the bobbins came out, the outers just spun the nuts behind the dash. after getting access to the nut, just about got it to undo, but it was a close run thing. And the genius work of the dual purpose courtesy switch and fascia mount defeated me - nut just spun round, and the front is circular... Had to cut it off, luckily there was just room.
Still got the n/s door switch bolt, and fascia screw to remove, but feels like progress. Lying in the footwell with my head under the dash and my feet on the bulkhead had all the same joy (ie none) of sorting the dashboard wiring of my Scimitar in the 90's - I was more flexible then though!
After I've done the dash I might have a go at removing the door, seeing as it's just a case of removing the split pin and sliding the outer tube down. :FUNNY: Given the split pin's not for shifting, looks like hacksaw work may be needed.
Looking for replacements for the multitasking courtesy switches, I see Banks have them at a shade under £15 each, but no stock. Looks like they are common to Austin A30/35s, as this seller's switches look very similar to me.
https://www.austina30a35parts.co.uk/product/all-electrical-parts/courtesy-light-switch-zswh001/ZSWH001
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Nope, that's definitely not the same switch. It looks like a much nicer one!
Don't forget about the tapped hole in the bottom of the hinge pin 5/16 - 24 or 16.
A saws-all is your friend but not having one, I just used a hacksaw blade handle - with a hacksaw blade, of course.
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That hinge pin looks like it's stainless. There's virtually no rust there. So it should be possible to pull it. Not to mention that it will be difficult to cut assuming I'm right that it's stainless.
That doesn't mean it will be necessarily easy, because chances are low that all the bushings in the door and body are actually co-axial.
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Good point, Fotog. Cheguava can check it with a magnet. Most but not all stainless steels are non magnetic. If it's really rust free, it probably won't need to be cut and will come out with a little coaxing.
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The door pin and door bush/lock nut look in excellent condition, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has been there in the past and replaced them. When I did mine in the late 80s the car was probably 15-16yrs old and the lower part of the pin and door bushes were completely rusted. Even getting the nut to move was a big effort whereas yours looks as if you could be in with a good chance.
As for magentism the austenitic stainless steels, 18%Cr/8%Ni grades for example, are usually non-magnetic although they can have a very small pull on a magnet. Ferritic stainless steels with only 11/12%Cr were the original "stainless steels" and are strongly magnetic, it's the structure that does it. Ferritic steels are cutlery, usually exhaust tubing and anything where you want shiny/no rust but at a lower cost than the 18/8's. Hence it could be as magnetic as plain steel but still stainless.
I would certainly try to move that pin though, leave it soaking in plus-gas or equivalent for a couple of days and you could be in luck with it.
Brian
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Thanks all, really appreciate the input. It struck me late last night that I'd not supported the weight of the door, and that might have hampered the pin from shifting. I'll give it a further dousing of release spray and then try again in a couple of days.
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Posted in anticipation...
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And from this thread...
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=5601.msg60568
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Thanks all, really appreciate the input. It struck me late last night that I'd not supported the weight of the door, and that might have hampered the pin from shifting. I'll give it a further dousing of release spray and then try again in a couple of days.
What usually happens is that the pin seizes in the door bush and so when you open the door the pin moves at the same time and the sliding surfaces are between the aluminium bushes in the body (lower sill, upper door aperture). This is what causes the wear and doors to drop.
My first shot would be to sit inside the car, hold the pin with mole grips and try to open the door. If it moves the mole grips as well, then use the leverage of the door whilst holding the grips to get the pin rotating while the door is stationary. That'll be the best way to get the release fluid where it's needed and any marks from the grips can be filed off before you start to drop the pin out.
Brian
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My stainless Pins from RD have a threaded hole in the lower end to accept a bolt that aids in turning and removing.
I use my Bonney wrenches to loosen and tighten nuts. Okay Gavin no jokes now. :FUNNY:
Dakazman
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What usually happens is that the pin seizes in the door bush and so when you open the door the pin moves at the same time and the sliding surfaces are between the aluminium bushes in the body (lower sill, upper door aperture). This is what causes the wear and doors to drop.
My first shot would be to sit inside the car, hold the pin with mole grips and try to open the door. If it moves the mole grips as well, then use the leverage of the door whilst holding the grips to get the pin rotating while the door is stationary. That'll be the best way to get the release fluid where it's needed and any marks from the grips can be filed off before you start to drop the pin out.
Brian
Been out all day, but popped out to the garage this evening to see if I could make any progress. With the driver's door supported, got the split pin out! :trophy: However, the door pin rotates with the door, and so far, is resisting any attempts with the mole grips to loosen. Will try again tomorrow. The passenger door pin, on the other hand, does not rotate as you open the door, but the crusty tail of the split pin is pointing inwards, so removing that is going to be joyful, unless I can get an improvised punch on it and knock it through. One for tomorrow.
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My stainless Pins from RD have a threaded hole in the lower end to accept a bolt that aids in turning and removing.
I use my Bonney wrenches to loosen and tighten nuts. Okay Gavin no jokes now. :FUNNY:
Dakazman
Cheers, I will have a look from underneath and see if I'm in luck and have the same assistance. Definitely worth a check.
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You could send a photo to them to be specific about what you want.
I'm afraid I was *that* person - sent them a picture of my seats and asked if theirs were the same! In my mind I was being helpful. ;D
I'll see how helpful they found it when I get a response.
I'm spamming my own thread now. :D Just admin - need to add that Banks have replied today (promptly) to my email, confirming that their ribbed perforated vinyl seat covers look to be the same as mine, and also answering another question I had. They quote lead time for seats as 3-4 weeks, which works for me, thought I'd share it as I know there are others considering options.
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Thanks Dave - living in the antipodes, I never really came across a "Bonney wrench".
My old Scottish uncle used to tell me about a 'bonny wench' engendering similar constrictions.... so perhaps that's where the confusion set in. ;)
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Been derailed by some serious dentistry, having been given strict instructions about limiting physical effort I've left the doors until I've healed a bit. Instead of which, I managed to get the dash out, and can look at it in all its (ahem) glory. Crash pad looks ok, but might get a covering of vinyl to freshen it up. Fascia panel has me in two minds, I'm not a fan of the OE lacquered floorboard look, and although the walnut veneer looks ok, i might try stripping the panel back and painting it matt / satin black.
So, onto stupid question time. My radiator was crumbling to bits as I removed it, but as luck would have it there was a Europa rad on eBay which looked decent, even had a Spal fan fitted (mine looked like it had been submerged with the Titanic). It arrived today, and is in evidently good nick, but doesn't have a hole for the Otter switch - it has an indented circle where it would be fitted but no hole. So I was wondering if everyone on here had an otter switch, or is there an alternative to switch on your fan when the radiator gets... otter? And yes, I am getting ahead of myself buying parts at the strip down stage, but it was retail therapy.
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I used a fan controller like this one (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CN4XZI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). It includes a relay and lets you dial in the temperature when the fan starts. It doesn't require an otter or other switch because it has a temperature probe that goes between the fins of the radiator.
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The otter switch has been redundant on my car since, well, probably before I got it in the 80s. The original owner of my car had fitted a dash switch and when I used the car daily in traffic I'd just flick it on if I got caught in a jam, otherwise it wasn't needed. All that's happened in my ownership is to rewire and fit a relay in the circuit, plus of course changing the fan for a more modern unit. When I tidied up the radiator 10+yrs ago the old switch was still there but all it's doing is keeping the coolant in.
If you really do want automatic control and can't fit the OEM switch then aftermarket fans such as the Kenlow I have on the Elan came with a bulb sensor & leads which you could slide into the top hose. There is a small rubber moulding, hard to describe but mine is a sort of half circle with indentations for the wire. This sits on the alloy thermosat housing outlet and the original hose slides over the combination and seals very well. You can set the temperature you want it to come on and it also has an override switch with a light to tell you when it's on. The original fan has long since been replaced by a slimmer, modern unit but the controller is still in there.
Brian
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Thanks BDA and Brian - that's really helpful. Either of those solutions sound like they would do the job, I'm tending towards the automatic with override which was what I had on my old Scimitar which was a little marginal on cooling, particularly if you were blatting along on the motorway and then hit traffic, it was good to get the fan on early.
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I have fitted manual over-ride earth switches to my cars. The fan is loud, so you can hear when you have switched it on. Normally only needed in heavy traffic or road works with a long wait at traffic lights.
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I have fitted manual over-ride earth switches to my cars. The fan is loud, so you can hear when you have switched it on. Normally only needed in heavy traffic or road works with a long wait at traffic lights.
Thanks for this, looks like I can fit a fan controller using the wiring for the otter switch, and add an override switch if it doesn't come with the kit. They all seem to come with a relay, which I'll definitely be using.
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Davies Craig make an old school fan controller with adjustable cut in point. I believe this is the type Brian is referring to.
There's also these in-line otter switch adaptors, too.
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Davies Craig make an old school fan controller with adjustable cut in point. I believe this is the type Brian is referring to.
There's also these in-line otter switch adaptors, too.
Thanks Gavin - looks like I have decisions to make on the rebuild - positive ones though! This site is a fantastic repository of knowledge - there's so much I've found out using the search bar, but I really appreciate the responses from people who've been and done this before
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Wasted a chunk of the day getting refused from giving blood due to recent dentistry (different rules online to their handbook) so didn't get as much done. Offside door lock removed, harder job due to random nuts and screw headed bolts being deployed at some time, and removal revealed damage to the door that will need repair - grrr. Got the wiper motor out and if I finish the o/s door and get the heater out tomorrow, that's about it for the interior.
Found the dashboard STL template and although I couldn't get it to print using a suitable app, converted it to jpeg so I can create a template to make the missing lower section of mine and bond it to what's left, with strengthening as required. Decided I'll cover the dashboard in vinyl, which I think should look good and cover a multitude of sins.
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Sunny morning in Yorkshire (as usual) so sacked the garage off and cleaned up the plenum flanges for the eyeball vents and the front number "plate" letters and numbers in the sunshine. Good to be able to salvage the odd metallic item. Flanges came up well but will need a polish to shine properly, and the letters and numbers will need a coat of paint I think. Looks like these were silver.
Now got to break off and deliver my camper to eldest child who has a mould issue in her rented house. Don't these people know I'm busy? :FUNNY:
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Back from South Yorks in time for a quick hour in the garage. Windscreen spray nozzle out, followed by heater. Hoses absolutely shot, one tore as I was wiggling it free. Will be replacing every rubber hose and bush though, so no disaster. Heater looks like it might be OK with a deep clean and a flush or two, but the gunge in the pipe running down from the heater will also need a thorough clear out. Still, will be easier to access it with the body off.
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I'd suggest you replace both of those steel pipes given the fact it's been standing for so long. I had to replace mine a year or so ago due to a pinhole at the opposite end and although it's not horrendous, it's a fiddle to do with everything in place. You can get stainless tubes or as I did, use copper tubing with plumbing olives soldered on to either end to replicate the swaged portion.
Brian
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I'd suggest you replace both of those steel pipes given the fact it's been standing for so long. I had to replace mine a year or so ago due to a pinhole at the opposite end and although it's not horrendous, it's a fiddle to do with everything in place. You can get stainless tubes or as I did, use copper tubing with plumbing olives soldered on to either end to replicate the swaged portion.
Brian
Thanks Brian, I'll add that to the list, it's probably wise as you say given it's >50 years old and has been sitting so long.
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More slow progress getting stuff stuck (quite literally at times) to the shell off. Offside door window frame really badly gunked into place, and quarterlight screwed in with inaccessible screws, but finally removed without breaking anything. The door locks defeated me tonight though, lock on the outside turning round and couldn't hold the screwdriver in the lock slot tight with one hand, so will have, to wait until I can get my son to hold one side. Am I missing a knack to removing the locks or is it just PlusGas and brute force?
Managed to get the unknown locking fuel caps off - the mechanism was seized but managed to prise the cap off one with my fingers and the second one was much easier knowing that. Mechanism very flimsy and had rusted up. Tanks are bone dry, can see a bit of rust but won't know if they're savable until the body is off and I can get them properly checked.
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Am I missing a knack to removing the locks or is it just PlusGas and brute force?
If every effort with a spanner and screwdriver fails, you will have to cut one flat back to the thread with a Dremel or similar small grinder. Once you have cut through completely, all the pressure is relieved on the thread and it should undo easily. The problem is corroded metal is bigger than uncorroded metal, so it stops it turning purely due to size.
If you need a new large nut, I have plenty spare as I changed 14 door locks for new.
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Am I missing a knack to removing the locks or is it just PlusGas and brute force?
If every effort with a spanner and screwdriver fails, you will have to cut one flat back to the thread with a Dremel or similar small grinder. Once you have cut through completely, all the pressure is relieved on the thread and it should undo easily. The problem is corroded metal is bigger than uncorroded metal, so it stops it turning purely due to size.
If you need a new large nut, I have plenty spare as I changed 14 door locks for new.
Thanks for the tip - will have a good go with my assistant, and if that fails, get the Dremel out.
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Am I missing a knack to removing the locks or is it just PlusGas and brute force?
If every effort with a spanner and screwdriver fails, you will have to cut one flat back to the thread with a Dremel or similar small grinder. Once you have cut through completely, all the pressure is relieved on the thread and it should undo easily. The problem is corroded metal is bigger than uncorroded metal, so it stops it turning purely due to size.
If you need a new large nut, I have plenty spare as I changed 14 door locks for new.
Thanks for the tip - will have a good go with my assistant, and if that fails, get the Dremel out.
I had a similar problem with similar nuts holding the wiper box to the body where the wiper arm attaches. That one was much easier to get at, but just would not turn with a spanner.
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Having a bit of a bad run getting stuff to let go. I've had to order more decent dremel discs as the thin ones aren't up to the job so moved onto the bits left at the front. Everything is rusted up - getting to the stage where (after a quick check of the suppliers price lists - I am from Yorkshire) I'm having to resort to more cutting. The pipe from the brake reservoir to the cylinder was rusty at both ends and the middle, and the nut at the master cylinder would not yield, so cut the pipe off at the bottom so I can get a ring spanner or socket on it later. Would have needed replacing anyway, and less than a tenner. Hoorah!
Onto the Handbrake pivot bolt. The bolt head does turn a little, but is fused to the pivot, so will only move a little. >:( PlusGas sprayed liberally and hit bolt and pivot bar with hammer to try and shock them free of each other without success so far. Keep reminding myself that stuff is 50 years old, and has sat for 20, so is to be expected. Still frustrating.
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I had to cut the pivot bolt off with a hacksaw blade up under the dash …. Great fun :-\
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If you are talking about the large headed bolt that the reaction lever pivots on, and you are converting from LHD to RHD, there is a mirror image threaded fixing on the chassis, so you just need a new bolt. With enough leverage, that bolt will shear off as it reduces in size a lot after it passes through the reaction lever. I think the thread is 3/8" UNF where it bolts into the chassis.
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If you are talking about the large headed bolt that the reaction lever pivots on, and you are converting from LHD to RHD, there is a mirror image threaded fixing on the chassis, so you just need a new bolt. With enough leverage, that bolt will shear off as it reduces in size a lot after it passes through the reaction lever. I think the thread is 3/8" UNF where it bolts into the chassis.
It's this bolt. I'm not switching sides, keeping the original RHD, the bolt moves but the reaction lever has fused itself to the bolt. Will try and free it off with brute force, but failing that, I reckon I can get the angle grinder in from the passenger footwell.
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I did this …
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I did this …
That's definitely on the cards as an option, going to try and somehow get the lever to let go of the bolt if I can, but failing that I'm just going to have to saw it off. Appreciate the input - it is a comfort of sorts to know that I have not been selected alone for this torment!
*Edit* - not managed with sockets, and not enough room to get at it with the angle grinder, so hacksaw it is. On the positive side, accelerator pedal assembly is out and freed up with penetrating oil, so that will go back in. On the negative, the brake and clutch pedals look like being a swine to get out...
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You are definitely not alone!
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Can you get an impact driver with an extended socket on it ?
I'm a late convert to these things but having bought a cheap wired Lidl driver I'm sold on the tool. Things I would previously have struggled with breaker bars just come off PDQ....
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Can you get an impact driver with an extended socket on it ?
I'm a late convert to these things but having bought a cheap wired Lidl driver I'm sold on the tool. Things I would previously have struggled with breaker bars just come off PDQ....
I'm not sure if that would work, as the bolt itself is loose but fused to the lever. I've got an old school impact driver which I will try with a socket and see if it might shock free, but the bolt is moving around like the thread it was screwed into, presumably on the chassis, has stripped or rusted away...
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On the negative, the brake and clutch pedals look like being a swine to get out...
One you have disconnected the clutch cable and the brake bar to the M/C, the only thing holding the pedals in place are 4 x 1/4"UNF nuts under the body. You will probably have to loosen all 4 and tap with a hammer as the plate on the inside tends to stick to the bodyshell.
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Mine was the same, it was turning in the threads
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Mine was the same, it was turning in the threads
You have my absolute admiration for having hacksawed through the whole bolt - that's serious hard work!
I managed to get the angle grinder access from the driver's (RH) footwell without destroying anything else, although that only got me about 3/4 through, and I had to junior hacksaw the rest off. Then got the stub out with mole grips - it unscrewed. But the head of the bolt appears from underside to have been welded to the handbrake lever - suspected effery - but I don't quite know how they got it in if they did weld it to the bolt. Either way it's out, just have to detach the head of the bolt from the lever.
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On the negative, the brake and clutch pedals look like being a swine to get out...
One you have disconnected the clutch cable and the brake bar to the M/C, the only thing holding the pedals in place are 4 x 1/4"UNF nuts under the body. You will probably have to loosen all 4 and tap with a hammer as the plate on the inside tends to stick to the bodyshell.
So pleased to hear that - was worried I had to get that out before lifting the body - will leave it until after then in that case.
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On the negative, the brake and clutch pedals look like being a swine to get out...
One you have disconnected the clutch cable and the brake bar to the M/C, the only thing holding the pedals in place are 4 x 1/4"UNF nuts under the body. You will probably have to loosen all 4 and tap with a hammer as the plate on the inside tends to stick to the bodyshell.
So pleased to hear that - was worried I had to get that out before lifting the body - will leave it until after then in that case.
It is much easier to lift the shell off the metal chassis with the pedal box fully out. It is not difficult.
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It is much easier to lift the shell off the metal chassis with the pedal box fully out. It is not difficult.
I'll do that then! I do appreciate the help from those who have done this (several times in some cases!) before - I would have struggled more so far without wiser counsel.
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I didn’t have to worry about removing the pedals …. The mounting plate dissolved from water :-\
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Well, the good news is the pedal box is out. The bad news is it won't be going back in - the pedal box is seized and cracked, so another thing onto the list. The mounting plate was pretty much shot too, so not too many tears. Just got to remember to make sure the holes in the floor for the box and the seats are sealed when refitting to prevent water getting into the foot wells etc and wrecking stuff again.
That concludes the inside and front though, apart from the lower steering column section, which sounds like it may require removal of the steering rack. My cup truly runneth over with joy.
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Very, very common. You can buy new or build your own if you are handy.
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Well, the good news is the pedal box is out. The bad news is it won't be going back in - the pedal box is seized and cracked, so another thing onto the list.
Banks make and sell them.
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As has been said, not an unusual problem.
If the spindle and pedals are ok (they usually are) then it's not difficult to make your own base plate, it's a simple construction. Use stainless if you like although I made mine in mild steel.
If the pedals and spindle are toast though it's a longer job, at which point I'd look at available time vs buying a new unit.
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I put oilite bushings in mine when I remanufactured them.
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Thanks all, I have reflected on this, and given the dire state of the pedal box, and an emotional response to knowing that I may need to stamp on the refurbished part and rely upon my handiwork holding to stop the car means that I'll be buying a replacement pedal box. I'm very impressed by the skills of those who can and have done so though.
Needing more immediate retail therapy, I took Europa TC's advice and went to Lidl today and bought a cordless impact wrench aka ugga dugga gun for £20 (plus another 20 for battery and charger, but that'll come in handy when I buy more cordless tools :D Got a feeling I'm going to need it when I get to the body to chassis bolts, as well as every nut and bolt on the chassis itself...
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I put oilite bushings in mine when I remanufactured them.
Turbo, Nice work and love the spacing. Question, what keeps the clutch pedal from falling rearwards? I believe I see the stop for the forward limit.
Dakazman
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I think Turbo may have made a mistake if there is a forward limit. The original pedals had a stop to keep the pedal from falling rearwards. You can see it in the picture of Banks' pedals. There is no stop for forward movement.
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There is a fixed pin that sticks out at the bottom near the pivot, I think it hits the base plate of the pedals. Mine had been bent and was allowing the pedal to come too far towards the drriver. I think it was shown/mentioned in the service manual.
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The original adjustable stop on clutch pedal.
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Making (slow) progress, I've now started undoing body fixings at the rear of the car, which was a little less affected by damp than the front end (picture of chassis closing plate below - front end of chassis is toast and contemplating spending the extra and replacing the whole chassis - will decide after I get the body off. However, the air filter casing has also added lightness during its time off the road. And although I was elated by persuading the nyloc nuts holding the servo to come off without shearing the studs, my celebrations were cut short by brake fluid running out of the vacuum pipe. Will do some searching, but I am guessing this is not a good sign? I'd like to keep the servo if possible, so further inquiry is required.
Mechanical woes aside. am starting to prepare the shell for it's re-Kermitting, which is a cheering process. It's had a few small biffs over the years, but I can't see anything too bad so far.
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Your Girling booster is quite likely junk. Moisture can get into the body of the booster and corrode it. In that case a rebuild is not possible. Lockheed makes a replacement booster. Because I knew I liked the stock setup, I installed them with a replacement stock M/C. I’m happy with my brakes but there’s another option you might prefer. You can use a M/C with a smaller bore, 0.70” I believe. Your brake pedal will have a bit more travel. It’s a common mod and I’ve never heard any complaints from anyone who has done it.
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Rebuild kits do come up for those servos but personally I'd just clean that one and put it on the shelf for now. Once you've got the car mobile (probably next month eh ?) try the brakes without assistance and see how you go.
My original servo packed up and I replaced it with a Lockheed one (MG ?) but even that would stick if left standing for too long over winter. In the end I pulled it out, changed the pads to Greenstuff and never went back. I'm not running the same system now, everything's changed with a custom design but the common factor is no servo assistance.
The closing plate is easy to replicate in stainless, put a return lip at either end and it'll be better than new. (and shiny as well ;) )
Brian
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I used 1/4" ally plate for my front closer plates.
But....... the closer plate acts as an earth for all the front electrics which earth through a 1/4" UNF bolt attached to the closer plate by the bottom radiator hose. The closer plate is bolted to the bottom of the T of the chassis with 3 more 1/4" UNF bolts.
I run a new dedicated thick black earth wire from the bolt where the earths are joined together, through the drivers footwell to the L plate which attaches to the chassis and holds the bottom of the dash in place.
That way there is a dry connection from the front earth to the chassis, which does not rust and cause bad earths.
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I used 1/4" ally plate for my front closer plates.
and
new dedicated thick black earth wire from the bolt where the earths are joined together, through the drivers footwell to the L plate which attaches to the chassis and holds the bottom of the dash in place.
1/4" thick ? more copper wire ? All that extra weight ????? you'll be drummed out of the Lotus club if you carry on like that ! :)
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1/4" thick ? more copper wire ? All that extra weight ????? you'll be drummed out of the Lotus club if you carry on like that ! :)
To compensate for all that extra weight, ally radiator, LED headlights, lightweight driving shoes, no wrist watch, and an empty ash tray.
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Rebuild kits do come up for those servos but personally I'd just clean that one and put it on the shelf for now. Once you've got the car mobile (probably next month eh ?) try the brakes without assistance and see how you go.
Thanks - I'll mull it over. Car is going to take a bit more than a month :FUNNY: but I'm trying to project manage it a little so that when the shell is done and ready to reunite with renewed chassis and suspension, I'm not waiting to sort stuff I could have got done in the meantime.
Best wishes, Jeff
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I used 1/4" ally plate for my front closer plates.
But....... the closer plate acts as an earth for all the front electrics which earth through a 1/4" UNF bolt attached to the closer plate by the bottom radiator hose. The closer plate is bolted to the bottom of the T of the chassis with 3 more 1/4" UNF bolts.
I run a new dedicated thick black earth wire from the bolt where the earths are joined together, through the drivers footwell to the L plate which attaches to the chassis and holds the bottom of the dash in place.
That way there is a dry connection from the front earth to the chassis, which does not rust and cause bad earths.
Sounds like a top tip - the bolt with the earth connection was pretty cruddy and fell apart.
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I may have missed some threads here but when it comes to chassis repairs or replacement, please remember we have Spyder Cars here in the UK - they blasted, cut off and rebuilt the whole front section, replaced the integral heater pipes and painted my chassis at a cost which I personally found attractive, (in comparison to alternatives), and I opted to go this route. The end result was very impressive. (I don't believe our friends across the water have this option)
I have posted pictures historically of this on the forum but if you cannot locate them I am happy to post again for you - let me know.
Note: I am in Shrewsbury so if you are ever down this part of the world pm me and you are welcome to come and see for yourself.
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I may have missed some threads here but when it comes to chassis repairs or replacement, please remember we have Spyder Cars here in the UK - they blasted, cut off and rebuilt the whole front section, replaced the integral heater pipes and painted my chassis at a cost which I personally found attractive, (in comparison to alternatives), and I opted to go this route. The end result was very impressive. (I don't believe our friends across the water have this option)
I have posted pictures historically of this on the forum but if you cannot locate them I am happy to post again for you - let me know.
Note: I am in Shrewsbury so if you are ever down this part of the world pm me and you are welcome to come and see for yourself.
Thanks - I found your post with the pics of your chassis, and it looks great. My T piece is in a woeful state, to the extent that I was hesitant to jack the front up on it. I used a 3x3 length of fence post that runs from side to side of the T and allowed me to jack it up in the middle and put axle stands at the ends where the steel looks more sturdy. And have placed wheels underneath the body tub in case of disaster.
Spyder are very much in my mind to do the repair / replacement, it's very helpful to know of satisfied customers.
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Spyder are very much in my mind to do the repair / replacement, it's very helpful to know of satisfied customers.
Just to second that reccomendation for Spyder. I fitted one of their modified Elan chassis to my car around 1980-ish and 40+yrs later nd apart from the odd place, the black finish they did is there. I've also got their adjustable Europa lower link and front wishbones on the Elan & Europa, all very good quality fabrications.
For my money these guys are like Richard at Banks Engineering, they not only know their stuff but are able to design & manufacture as well.
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As a point aside - why has this, (and very informative and interesting thread), been launched as "It's not easy being green - 1971 TC" ???
I'm old - help me out here please - preferably gently. :confused:
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As a point aside - why has this, (and very informative and interesting thread), been launched as "It's not easy being green - 1971 TC" ???
I'm old - help me out here please - preferably gently. :confused:
A song from Kermit the frog. Plus the car is pistachio green.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRZ-IxZ46ng&ab_channel=JayB7869
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As a point aside - why has this, (and very informative and interesting thread), been launched as "It's not easy being green - 1971 TC" ???
I'm old - help me out here please - preferably gently. :confused:
What the previous post said - the car was originally green, but was repainted black as a fake Special. I'm restoring it to the original colour, which friends have unkindly (but accurately) referred to as Kermit green.
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That looks like pistachio green. I like it.
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Hi
Looks like you are making great progress. I really need to get moving on mine.
With respect to the chassis, I do not know anything about the Spyder Europa chassis, but I do know about the Elan +2 ones as I have an older standard spaceframe of theirs and also a much newer Zetec version. I had both zinc primed and powdercoated as even the recent one had started to show surface rust, especially at the seams. I would also measure any of their chassis carefully before use. I am 90% sure that the chassis on my Europa is good and just needs a full strip and repaint so hopefully I will not need to consider any replacement options.
All the best
Berni
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Hi
Looks like you are making great progress. I really need to get moving on mine.
With respect to the chassis, I do not know anything about the Spyder Europa chassis, but I do know about the Elan +2 ones as I have an older standard spaceframe of theirs and also a much newer Zetec version. I had both zinc primed and powdercoated as even the recent one had started to show surface rust, especially at the seams. I would also measure any of their chassis carefully before use. I am 90% sure that the chassis on my Europa is good and just needs a full strip and repaint so hopefully I will not need to consider any replacement options.
All the best
Berni
Hi Berni, thanks for the input. If the back section of the chassis is OK, then I'd rather go with just the replacement of the front "T" section. Spyder offer a service of shot blasting the chassis, testing it for straightness on a jig, and replacing the front section. The rear section has surface rust but may be OK. The front... see photo below. I'll be probably replacing quite a lot of the stuff that bolts to the chassis too, but focus at the moment is on getting the body off and doing basic prep as I'm a lot cheaper than the body shop.
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Hi Jeff,
Now this post might seem like doom & gloom, but it's meant as a heads up about how imaginative these things can be where corrosion is concerned.
From the looks of that front crossmember you might be in for another unwelcome surprise because on my car, most of the real damage was in the rear section. I'd monitored the front crossmember when I drove it daily because, like the Elan design. that's where I expected most trouble but in the end I replaced metal at the back rather than the front.
Pictures tell it better than words....
#1, the upper section of the rear chassis leg, hidden under bodywork and only found when the body came off. Steel repair section welded in.
#2, same sort of area but under the battery, again the upper return section cut out & replaced together with the battery support section.
#3, the engine mount area in the vertical sections. This was the reason for lifting the body, I felt the handling was deteriorating and when I looked it was so bad that I suspected it was flexing when loaded on corners. Big repair on both sides and I almost scrapped the chassis when I found the next one....
#4, Corrosion at the end of the central spine. Water had collected & rusted in the bottom of the "V" over a relatively small area but it's a small area which connects the spine to the rear sections and looks to me as critical.
#5, minor stuff like cracking at body mounting points. I've no idea how this came about because the metal was sound but I ended up grinding/welding and then welding a support washer underneath.
None of the above were difficult to fix, just cut out to sound metal and weld in steel repair panels. Steel was cheap and making the panels easy but it did take a lot of time to cut/prepare/weld & grind back afterwards making sure not to introduce distortion. Would I do it now ? No, I'd just throw cash at a new chassis and take advantage of the improvements in both corrosion resistance, stiffness and suspension options that we've got these days.
I have no doubt Spyder/Banks would laugh at this sort of repair work but if you're paying labour rates it soon adds up if you end up replacing the front crossmember and a similar situation to mine at the rear.
Brian
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I have only seen bad corrosion in the Y just below where the handbrake cables exit the main chassis, and where the closer plate attaches to the chassis to the 3 x 1/4"UNF nuts welded inside the front T.
Water does seem to lie in the Y, and cannot naturally drain out.
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EuropaTC, I'm surprised you had rust in the back of the frame because I thought the engine was designed to leak oil so that it covers the rear frame and keeps it from rusting!! :FUNNY:
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EuropaTC, I'm surprised you had rust in the back of the frame because I thought the engine was designed to leak oil so that it covers the rear frame and keeps it from rusting!! :FUNNY:
But it is only designed to spray engine oil when the engine is running.
Leaks from the gearbox are of no real conservation help, except to your driveway or garage floor.
If the car is not being used, eventually metal worm will eat into anything steel.
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EuropaTC, I'm surprised you had rust in the back of the frame because I thought the engine was designed to leak oil so that it covers the rear frame and keeps it from rusting!! :FUNNY:
I'll have you know the Lotus TC doesn't leak oil, it recycles it.
Oil originally comes out of the ground and my engine swirls it about the bearings for a bit and then returns it to source, dripping out slowly and distributing it on the ground for future generations to dig up...... the original eco-warrior recycling machine, Chapman was way ahead of his time.....
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If the car is not being used, eventually metal worm will eat into anything steel.
That's funny but I think it also makes a serious point - that you do need to take the car out and get it hot (not just to replenish the oil on the frame :) ) but to evaporate any condensation and keep things generally "loose."
...the original eco-warrior recycling machine, Chapman was way ahead of his time...
Chunky was always ahead of his time!
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Europa TC - I'm really surprised at the areas of corrosion on your chassis - mine was, fortunately it seems, concentrated on the front cross member, (see photo's of before and after). Spyder came to my rescue - I did not and do not have the skill set to achieve what you did. Well done.
In hindsight - and if I had had a money tree, I would have invested in a complete Spyder chassis - that would have given me the option of alternative rear suspension set ups and indeed gearboxes - but at the time I was half way through the eye watering costs of rebuilding the TC engine and I simply could not make the numbers work. (I still can't..... :))
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That is very much like the Spyder frame I have (they either produced the more "standard" frame along with their tubular frame or it was before the tubular frame came out). I'm very happy with it. The better access to the steering u-joint is a huge advantage over the original!
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Thanks Brian for the warning about the rear of the chassis - I'm fairly sanguine about the potential for a full replacement, it would be nice to just replace the front, but the marginal cost of a full chassis replacement isn't going to halt the project. So far, at the back of the chassis all I can see is surface rust, but once I have the body detached then I should have a better idea of the scope of the work needed. Keep chipping away at it when I get an hour or two free - tonight it was the nuts in the n/s rear wheel arch holding the seat belt brace plate that just refused all persuasion, gentle or otherwise. Two removed (in pieces) so far. Back at it tomorrow evening.
Jeff
*Update* - the remaining two nuts gave up only after the death of a thousand Dremel cuts, but at least they came off. Other than the seatbelt top mounts, and the steering column connection to the rack, that only leaves the main bolts to undo I think. And the doors, which I think will be best wrestled off while the shell is attached to the chassis. All the fun stuff to finish! :))
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What the previous post said - the car was originally green, but was repainted black as a fake Special. I'm restoring it to the original colour, which friends have unkindly (but accurately) referred to as Kermit green.
That seems to be a pretty popular color in the last 10 years. We refer to it as "inchworm green" 😊
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What the previous post said - the car was originally green, but was repainted black as a fake Special. I'm restoring it to the original colour, which friends have unkindly (but accurately) referred to as Kermit green.
That seems to be a pretty popular color in the last 10 years. We refer to it as "inchworm green" 😊
Not so popular on this side of the pond, where a sludgy grey colour also known as "Mrs Hinch grey" has gripped all aspirational types who want their cars, walls, clothes, window frames, children etc grey. Makes it a real treat driving in England on dark winter days!
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Grey has become very popular here too. Most of the cars in the past 20 years haven't been too different. Silver, "anthracite", white, ... When they need a wash, they all look grey. Now we have grey that seems to be gloss "grey primer." Quite an exciting color!
The inchworm green is seen elsewhere. Rarely cars.
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At the risk of thread drift.... Whilst this isn't the real pistachio green which was a solid bright green paint, metallic green colours have made a bit of a comeback on modern cars recently.
This shot is the the end of '22 when we picked up our Ford shopping trolley, a Fiesta in "Mean Green". Yep, it really is called "Mean Green" and I love it.... absolutely no problem finding it in a crowded car park.
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:I-agree:
It suits the car - I always think a cars shape dictates which colors it can wear. In my personal opinion all Europa's wear bright colors very well - and from a safety point of view I believe they should - they can be easily missed. :(
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:I-agree:
and from a safety point of view I believe they should - they can be easily missed.
My wife managed to hit my bright carnival red one in our driveway !!!
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My wife managed to hit my bright carnival red one in our driveway !!!
:huh: :holdurbreath:
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Made a bit more progress today, helped by the (eventual) arrival of the corded electric impact wrench, which undid the offside lower seatbelt mount bolt that no amount of conventional leverage could shift. However, the nearside mount was a rather different affair. As can be seen from the picture, structural integrity had departed. Thanks to EuropaTC aka Brian for his tip about the ugga dugga gun, and also for advising to check out the mounting plates for corrosion - slightly concerning to wonder what the result would have been in an accident.
Top seatbelt mounts sorted too, so now just the door pins and steering rack to do. I've established that the door pins do have a thread at the bottom and managed to get a bolt screwed into one. Couldn't get the pin to shift though - I've removed the split pin, should that release it? Next step is presumably a slide hammer to persuade it to move downwards?
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My wife managed to hit my bright carnival red one in our driveway !!!
:huh: :holdurbreath:
OH S^%$$#^&
Okay How bad?
Dakazman
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Cheguava, have you looked inside the door at the hinge pin? If it's at all rusty, you won't be able to slide it down. OTOH, with access, you can sand down the rust by your favorite method.
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I just couldn't win with mine and ended up cutting them out - I cut them with a Z saw through the lower section - with this cut the upper section pulled free.
Be careful, the doors are quite heavy, (can't remember if you have already stripped them)
Photo's show what I ended up with. I will replace with Banks hinges.
Lots of historical data on the forum regarding these - many many people have been along this journey - good luck.
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I cut mine out, too. I did it with cuts above and below the door, then with the door on a work table, managed to remove the pins and the rest of the hardware. Replaced with Banks hinges, too.
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Couldn't get the pin to shift though - I've removed the split pin, should that release it? Next step is presumably a slide hammer to persuade it to move downwards?
If that works, you should buy yourself a lottery ticket.
I had to cut mine out.
If all else fails, I'd suggest:
1. Cut the pin inside the door with an angry grinder in two places so as to remove a section. Be careful it doesn't jump and put a slit in the door because there's not much room to swing it about. A reciprocating saw may be better.
2. With a section of the pin removed, it's possible to wedge the door upwards to expose the pin below the door itself.
3. Cut the pin below the door. I used a hacksaw blade in a handle because I didn't have a reciprocating version at the time.
4. Cut the pin above the door similarly and remove the door to the healing bench.
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I've established that the door pins do have a thread at the bottom and managed to get a bolt screwed into one. Couldn't get the pin to shift though - I've removed the split pin, should that release it? Next step is presumably a slide hammer to persuade it to move downwards?
The first job is to get the pin to rotate in the door bush by holding the pin with mole grips and opening/closing the door. From the photos earlier, your car is in much better condition than mine was and usually the photos I've seen are a completely rusted up pin. If you can leave them with penetrating oil and then give it some effort with mole grips/door leverage then with any luck you'll get them moving.
Then it's the slide hammer, but no point trying that until the pins rotate in the door bushes, without the pin being free you'll just make a lot of noise and get upset. If you can't rotate the pin then give up and cut them out. It will take ages but that's Lotus Life.
As for the seat belt mounts, well, that's another "TADTS" - They All Do That Sir. - just a matter of time ;)
If you haven't seen the thread, I replaced mine ages ago when I changed the seat belts to inertia reel. Joji sent me pictures of his federal car set-up and it helped a lot in making the change although I suppose you could work it out from the parts manual. Definitely something to consider when you're putting the car back together, it stops you sitting on the belt when you get in, closing the door when the metal bit has decided to rest on the sill, etc.
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=883.msg6539#msg6539 (https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=883.msg6539#msg6539)
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My wife managed to hit my bright carnival red one in our driveway !!!
:huh: :holdurbreath:
OH S^%$$#^&
Okay How bad?
Dakazman
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hummph, nobbut a scratch....
a bit of T-Cut and you'll polish that out in no time.... ;)
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I've established that the door pins do have a thread at the bottom and managed to get a bolt screwed into one. Couldn't get the pin to shift though - I've removed the split pin, should that release it? Next step is presumably a slide hammer to persuade it to move downwards?
The first job is to get the pin to rotate in the door bush by holding the pin with mole grips and opening/closing the door. From the photos earlier, your car is in much better condition than mine was and usually the photos I've seen are a completely rusted up pin. If you can leave them with penetrating oil and then give it some effort with mole grips/door leverage then with any luck you'll get them moving.
Then it's the slide hammer, but no point trying that until the pins rotate in the door bushes, without the pin being free you'll just make a lot of noise and get upset. If you can't rotate the pin then give up and cut them out. It will take ages but that's Lotus Life.
As for the seat belt mounts, well, that's another "TADTS" - They All Do That Sir. - just a matter of time ;)
If you haven't seen the thread, I replaced mine ages ago when I changed the seat belts to inertia reel. Joji sent me pictures of his federal car set-up and it helped a lot in making the change although I suppose you could work it out from the parts manual. Definitely something to consider when you're putting the car back together, it stops you sitting on the belt when you get in, closing the door when the metal bit has decided to rest on the sill, etc.
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=883.msg6539#msg6539 (https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=883.msg6539#msg6539)
Thanks for this - I don't think I really understood how the door hinges worked until this point. One side does rotate, so I'll have a go at that, and see if I can move the other side with mole grips. Sounds like it'll be a saw job though, which is not the end of the world given the cost of new pins.
It was your post about the seat belt mount plate that alerted me to what might be going on in the sill, so thanks again! :)) I think I'm going to retain the static belts (with new webbing) as I don't think I can sacrifice any rearward seat travel, I may well change my mind later but that's the current thinking.
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If you mount the inertia reels as they were originally then I think (note "think" ) they were slightly higher than mine are so you wouldn't lose any seat movement. Mine ended up where they are because it was fairly simple to install and I was certain they'd retract/lock at that angle. Unless you're already used to a car with static belts it's worth considering, especially if you live in an area where you need to use that apology for a handbrake on hill starts !
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Back to putting a bit of effort into getting the last bits done before separating body and chassis. So, first door finally off. Absolutely nothing worked to free the door hinge pin, so hack sawed through the top and bottom. Bottom of the pin fell into sill, but top of pin in door frame and top and bottom of the door are still well and truly stuck. Am I best drilling these out now? Or is there any other way? Presumably the bolts inside the door are for door adjustment only?
Secondly, the steering pinch bolt to release the lower steering column. Having managed to get a ratchet spanner on the nut, with immense effort managed to get it to turn, but of course that was the bolt turning too. :headbanger: I can't see a way of getting a second spanner on the bolt head due to the lack of room.
So I moved to undo the steering rack from the T section. Bolts rounded off, and nuts turning with the bolt. Got angry and cut off the bolt heads and nuts. Still not wanting to move, even with persuasion.
I'll be able to get a further crack at the steering rack when I get the body off, but for now I I think my best options to get the steering column off are to use a hacksaw on a handle to cut the nut off the pinch bolt, or if there's room even cut down the middle of it. Am I missing something here? Or is this a complete nightmare? Seems crackers to have so much stuff disappearing into a closed box section...
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Back to putting a bit of effort into getting the last bits done before separating body and chassis. So, first door finally off. Absolutely nothing worked to free the door hinge pin, so hack sawed through the top and bottom. Bottom of the pin fell into sill, but top of pin in door frame and top and bottom of the door are still well and truly stuck. Am I best drilling these out now? Or is there any other way? Presumably the bolts inside the door are for door adjustment only?
I have had to drill a hole in each fibreglass wing, and literally punch the 1/2" rod out of the housing in the body.
Secondly, the steering pinch bolt to release the lower steering column. Having managed to get a ratchet spanner on the nut, with immense effort managed to get it to turn, but of course that was the bolt turning too. :headbanger: I can't see a way of getting a second spanner on the bolt head due to the lack of room.
I use a bent C shaped 1/2" ring spanner, like for the bolts holding the rack to the chassis. You have to rotate the steering wheel to get the right position to access top and bottom.
So I moved to undo the steering rack from the T section. Bolts rounded off, and nuts turning with the bolt. Got angry and cut off the bolt heads and nuts. Still not wanting to move, even with persuasion.
I'll be able to get a further crack at the steering rack when I get the body off, but for now I I think my best options to get the steering column off are to use a hacksaw on a handle to cut the nut off the pinch bolt, or if there's room even cut down the middle of it. Am I missing something here? Or is this a complete nightmare? Seems crackers to have so much stuff disappearing into a closed box section...
Much easier to access everything when the body is off.
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Have you removed the more or less teardrop shaped closing panel at the rear of the front wheel well? It’s held on with 5-7 large rivets and probably undercoating. With that removed, you can reach in and pick up the lower piece of hinge pin. And you can touch the top of the upper section of pin. Maybe some penetrating oil would obviate the need to drill through the fiberglass wing. (Makes me reconsider why there was a patch in the fiberglass there on my car’s body.)
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I have had to drill a hole in each fibreglass wing, and literally punch the 1/2" rod out of the housing in the body.
Dammit - I managed to punch the rod at the top a couple of mm up before it jammed. Thanks though - very helpful to know that others with more experience also find this not straightforward.
I use a bent C shaped 1/2" ring spanner, like for the bolts holding the rack to the chassis. You have to rotate the steering wheel to get the right position to access top and bottom.
Fair enough, thanks. Hack sawing is going slowly but nearly there - just come into the house for a coffee break
Much easier to access everything when the body is off.
Couldn't be any harder. Think the passenger door might be slightly better - still needs cutting off but isn't frozen at as many points.
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Have you removed the more or less teardrop shaped closing panel at the rear of the front wheel well? It’s held on with 5-7 large rivets and probably undercoating. With that removed, you can reach in and pick up the lower piece of hinge pin. And you can touch the top of the upper section of pin. Maybe some penetrating oil would obviate the need to drill through the fiberglass wing. (Makes me reconsider why there was a patch in the fiberglass there on my car’s body.)
That's a good shout, and embarrassingly, that panel is missing on my car, looks a fairly recent removal for whatever reason. I'd not thought to look in that way though, d'oh! :)) Like you say, a good angle to squirt penetrating oil. Thanks!
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If you get either the 'T' replaced by Spyder or you get a new Spyder frame, the access to the steering u-joint situation will be fixed for you. I thought I had seen that Banks made a similar mod to the 'T' but you might have to call to see if that's true.
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As an extension to BDA's comment regarding access to the steering U Joint - please see following photo's. As you will already know, I had the front T section of my original chassis replaced by Spyder - my body is yet to go on the "go kart" - radiator is shown temporarily mounted as I have been running the engine.
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Thanks for the tip BDA, and thanks for the pics Chris - WOW, the front end of your chassis looks immaculate! Is that all new parts or have you had some of them refinished? Good to know that reassembly will be easier than the reverse of taking it apart!
Managed to finish cutting off the nut of the pinch bolt, and as I rotated it to get at the head of the bolt, the bolt fell out. Hammered a big screwdriver into the gap and hey presto, got the steering column off. :trophy:
Just got to get the master cylinder off now - lower bolt was fine but getting a spanner on the top one is tricky, so will go at that tomorrow. Getting close to body lift off.
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Thanks for the tip BDA, and thanks for the pics Chris - WOW, the front end of your chassis looks immaculate! Is that all new parts or have you had some of them refinished? Good to know that reassembly will be easier than the reverse of taking it apart!
I didn't really have a lot to work with, :( (see photo's). The original lower wishbones were bent following being used as jacking points at some point during their life. Severe corrosion elsewhere.
Upper and lower wish bones are Spyder, calipers, discs, coil overs, master cylinder and steering rack mounts are new - everything else I refinished, so uprights, stub axles, steering rack, anti roll bar, drop links are original.
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Counting down to lift off now. Removed the brake master cylinder, which continuing a theme fell to bits as I undid the mount - the alloy just crumbling. Add to the list of replacements needed... Got the airbox and carbs off without too much drama though, and undid the connections beneath. Need to saw off the passenger door, and pull the clutch cable out of the body, then I think it's time to start raising the body and see what connection I've inevitably missed! :))
Also cheered myself up by getting a tyre put on the spare wheel - it's not the greatest condition but it was the worst wheel by some distance, so am hopeful the rest will polish up a bit better. Looked at getting them diamond cut but quotes were £150 a wheel which while probably market rate was more than buying a new set. And it's nice to look at something and know you did it.
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Hi
That wheel looks great, well done. My seat cover kit came from Banks today. I need to start to look into foams etc.
All the best
Berni
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Hi
That wheel looks great, well done. My seat cover kit came from Banks today. I need to start to look into foams etc.
All the best
Berni
Thanks Berni - I've not ordered my seat covers yet, need to get round to it now probably. Which covers did you go with in the end?
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..... then I think it's time to start raising the body and see what connection I've inevitably missed!
Looked at getting them diamond cut but quotes were £150 a wheel which while probably market rate was more than buying a new set.
Don't forget the handbrake multiplying lever - item 9 on the attached photo. (Not sure if you have already removed it) If not - "yes" the bolt will be seized.... :))
My sentiments also regarding wheels - I reworked mine following having them shot blasted, (took me a whole day per wheel to polish and paint) - they are not perfect but I believe in keeping with the age of the car - I posted a thread on them some time back.
Well done - you are getting there :)
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Here's the link for when I did my wheels
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4611.msg50154#msg50154
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..... then I think it's time to start raising the body and see what connection I've inevitably missed!
Looked at getting them diamond cut but quotes were £150 a wheel which while probably market rate was more than buying a new set.
Don't forget the handbrake multiplying lever - item 9 on the attached photo. (Not sure if you have already removed it) If not - "yes" the bolt will be seized.... :))
My sentiments also regarding wheels - I reworked mine following having them shot blasted, (took me a whole day per wheel to polish and paint) - they are not perfect but I believe in keeping with the age of the car - I posted a thread on them some time back.
Well done - you are getting there :)
Thanks Chris, the handbrake lever was a low point - a PO or their mechanic had welded the bolt to the lever and then dropped / driven the lever in. I had to saw through the bolt to remove it, luckily got over half way with an angle grinder but then had to hacksaw the rest. Will be jacking the body up very slowly when it comes to it!
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Speedometer cable? Oil pressure tube?
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Here's the link for when I did my wheels
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4611.msg50154#msg50154
You did a nice job there Chris. My prep is similar to yours, having done a few sets over the years I now try and save the hand sanding and polishing for where it's actually needed, and crack out the power tools where it's not. A few years back I lost easy access to my computer and phone as I'd sanded my finger prints off :FUNNY:
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Speedometer cable? Oil pressure tube?
Speedo cable is done - another thing that snapped as i touched it. ::) Oil pressure tube is not yet undone at the back, thanks for the reminder!
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Two bottom central dashboard bolts holding the L plates to the chassis. Two seat belt mounting point bolts either side of the tunnel.
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I've never actually taken a body off - as like a complete idiot I bought my TCS in pieces and the body was already off. No an ideal way to start a rebuild. It will be interesting to see what you have missed when you come to the separation - there is/are bound to be something/s. :)
What is your plan for lifting it off? A few people or you have a lift?
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interconnecting fuel pipe which connects the two tanks through the rear chassis.
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Two bottom central dashboard bolts holding the L plates to the chassis. Two seat belt mounting point bolts either side of the tunnel.
Yes and Yes - thanks. :)
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interconnecting fuel pipe which connects the two tanks through the rear chassis.
Done - thanks. :)
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I've never actually taken a body off - as like a complete idiot I bought my TCS in pieces and the body was already off. No an ideal way to start a rebuild. It will be interesting to see what you have missed when you come to the separation - there is/are bound to be something/s. :)
What is your plan for lifting it off? A few people or you have a lift?
I'm sure there'll be at least one thing! Plan is to jack up slowly, then we'll be using long fence posts to lift as a team.
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Thanks Berni - I've not ordered my seat covers yet, need to get round to it now probably. Which covers did you go with in the end?
[/quote]
Hi, I went with the ribbed 2 part ones which I understand to be correct for a TCS......... listed on the banks site as "Seat cover- 2 cushion – plain ribbed (black)" from memory.
Yours should originally be the same I think.
All the best
Berni
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Plan is to jack up slowly, then we'll be using long fence posts to lift as a team.
I used two pieces of 4 x 2 wood. The rear one side to side where the rear lights are, and the front one side to side where the radiator was.
Then 4 ratchet straps to either the garage ceiling, or two 6 x 2s sitting directly above the 4 x 2s, on tall metal band stands, and you can lift the shell by just clicking the ratchet straps, on your own. The bare shell without doors bonnet and boot is very light.
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Hi
I have done an Elan +2 body on 4 ratchet straps before. I did not particularly enjoy the experience but it was a one man job and certainly worked. Lowering it down required another 4 straps (from memory).
All the best
Berni
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Used 3 pulleys from ceiling…
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Used 3 pulleys from ceiling…
Thanks - for all the suggestions - the Europa community is a deep well of ingenuity! As I have a readily tappable source of labour for the next 2-3 weeks (eldest child plus partner moving back in until completion of their house purchase) my plan is to lift the shell using the posts (in the standard places where the 2x4s are slotted) to lift the shell and support the posts on saw horses. (rated at 170kg each corner so should be ok) I think that gives me enough clearance to roll the chassis out from beneath, but it's partly an interim step while I have further discussion with the bodyshop guy. I'm also going to have to invest in some better drill bits, you really do get what you pay for with tools (mostly - you can pay lots and get rubbish but if you pay cheap you 100% get rubbish). Cutting the doors off proved all hacksaw blades are not created equal! :) But both now off, hence the need for drill bits to remove the stubs.
Just looking at the photo, that is not a Jackson Pollock on the wall (one for the kids ;D ), but foam put up for youngest child's first car to stop him biffing the door on the pillar which became a handy surface to empty aerosol nozzles onto after rattle canning something.
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I'm late to this topic but here's yet another viewpoint; I didn't lift the body off using pulleys/ratchet straps or 4 strong blokes at either corner, what I did was to undo everything (or thought I had) and then drop the rolling chassis out from underneath.
Basically jack the car up with a trolley jack at either end of the chassis - the jacks eventually needed spacers to sit on to get the height - and then support the body with planks of wood down the sides using a mixture of axle stands & steel framework.
Once the body is supported, lower the trolley jacks and the whole chassis drops away from the body and rolls out from underneath. Or it would have done had I disconnected the oil gauge pipe - you'd be amazed how much one of those weedy plastic pipes can take ;)
My method was driven by circumstances, I didn't have 3 strong neighbours to help and the garage roof had suspiciously small roof beams which flexed when I walked on it to replace the roof, so I didn't want to risk pulling it down. I was also working in a confined space, larger than a single but not a true double garage. So the body would have to stay in place while I dragged out the chassis, repaired it and then replace.
Hence the "lift complete assembly, support body, drop out chassis/engine/suspension" method. There are a couple of advantages, firstly you are using gravity with the weight of the rolling chassis to separate the body/chassis which can be difficult by lifting alone. I struggled when replacing the Elan chassis and ended up using a crowbar to prise them apart with years of rust/mud gluing them together. Secondly it's another solo method, not as quick as using pulleys but in my case, with suspect roof beams, very safe because the weight was all against a concrete floor.
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I hoisted my body up to the ceiling and left it there till later so I had space ( I have 11 foot ceiling)
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A little milestone achieved. Body off, although needs raising up a bit higher to allow the engine to clear the bottom of the shell. Also done some basic fibreglassing of the holes in the floor pans that weren't supposed to be there, and a couple more damaged spots where the aesthetic quality of repair was less important as it will be covered when reassembled.
Now need to have a further chat with the body shop guy about potential timescales and costs, and if there's anything else I can do to assist. Then I need to get to grips with the metal bits, which are not wonderful. A lengthy body restoration would actually be quite helpful. :)
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Congratulations!!! :beerchug: That's a big milestone!! :pirate:
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:I-agree:
Get it raised higher as you say - clear the engine from the shell and then your fun begins. :FUNNY:
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:I-agree:
Get it raised higher as you say - clear the engine from the shell and then your fun begins. :FUNNY:
Thanks Chris and BDA, shouldn't have to lift it that much thank god - miscalculated a bit with the saw horses which otherwise were a good way of obtaining lift off. Rated at 170kg so easily cover a corner weight of the shell.
Been tidying up stuff that I couldn't get to earlier, such as the diagonal brace strut for which the captive nut on the chassis was no longer captive. And removing the number plate light which I was unaware of until I saw Kelvedon had it back in stock. Not sure if it will mend - at least there's an alternative if I can't glue/clean/solder it up again.
Also looking at getting the fuel tanks out now the body is high enough. Found the attached thread most informative, particularly given the TC workshop manual doesn't seem to cover it. Will have to see if I can beat Chris's total of 4 sheared bolts out of 8 - have sprayed the nuts with releasing fluid but with little hope and even less expectation. Then we will see if the tanks are savable... https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4270.msg45904#msg45904 (https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=4270.msg45904#msg45904)
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I believe those festoon lamps are common so I wouldn't bother repairing it unless you're OCD about originally.
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You will need the body higher for the left tank as the fuel gauge sender bulge makes it harder to come out on the angle.
If the bolts shear, it is no big deal as they are easy to drill and tap when out.
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I believe those festoon lamps are common so I wouldn't bother repairing it unless you're OCD about originally.
You're right - had a scout for them and found they are available on eBay for £13.99, which does rather weaken my recycling resolve! :)) (Update - £12.59 with discount code - bought.)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222636263889?epid=6017009245&itmmeta=01J21W9RWGQJ5Z00FTHWHTRDX6&hash=item33d627c9d1:g:RucAAOSwE0peoBox&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8MFVW3WpkjOgZhBXmMdcY30VuQK2gS8C1r4SxxZOf95n5o5r55Vrj%2FiuSUwzf2%2BfD5FkGwb336D%2FC295lnKlz%2FKRI7fRevRW9sodNk4ha8HfcX9KCoR5OO42TfQTck%2By15VlYiGXRrHL1EYPyaFGBQ8Qmv4FC1DHb77bY5K%2BDY1Yeoh2KUGGtYqcW6wKqD--u7NHpsQiN6HjnS5KNo0mwdkzPVhJp4n6j1xKcb%2BW6cJEkY1TAqFNTYtsElN3MhDWawfTtVHmzxG4K3o1A4vTF2rGk6cefAzJ%2FySharNTyMoLl5xWYqfMykT8EXayic7CXg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMuo6nvJBk (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222636263889?epid=6017009245&itmmeta=01J21W9RWGQJ5Z00FTHWHTRDX6&hash=item33d627c9d1:g:RucAAOSwE0peoBox&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8MFVW3WpkjOgZhBXmMdcY30VuQK2gS8C1r4SxxZOf95n5o5r55Vrj%2FiuSUwzf2%2BfD5FkGwb336D%2FC295lnKlz%2FKRI7fRevRW9sodNk4ha8HfcX9KCoR5OO42TfQTck%2By15VlYiGXRrHL1EYPyaFGBQ8Qmv4FC1DHb77bY5K%2BDY1Yeoh2KUGGtYqcW6wKqD--u7NHpsQiN6HjnS5KNo0mwdkzPVhJp4n6j1xKcb%2BW6cJEkY1TAqFNTYtsElN3MhDWawfTtVHmzxG4K3o1A4vTF2rGk6cefAzJ%2FySharNTyMoLl5xWYqfMykT8EXayic7CXg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMuo6nvJBk)
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You will need the body higher for the left tank as the fuel gauge sender bulge makes it harder to come out on the angle.
If the bolts shear, it is no big deal as they are easy to drill and tap when out.
Thanks - think I've got enough clearance to drop the tanks out but hopefully will soon find out! ;D
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Will have to see if I can beat Chris's total of 4 sheared bolts out of 8
My TCS had all 8 bolts. But 3 of the fender washers had punched neat holes through the fiberglass. So I got to patch those and relocate/drill the mounting holes. That was some interesting geometry.
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Hi
You might be lucky. All 8 bolts came out easily on mine. One was actually loose. I thought the tanks would be toast, but the powdercoaters said that after blasting they were ok.
Best of luck
Berni
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Fingers crossed your fuel sender fixing arrangement is not rusted solid - mine was, and that your fuel outlet pipes are in good condition - mine weren't.... and that the top of your tanks are not badly rusted c/w pin holes. (mine weren't !! )
There is also an interesting thread somewhere about increasing the fuel pipe size outlets so as to speed up the transfer of fuel from one tank to the other whilst filling up at the fuel station.
If all plans fail - and if you have access to a money tree - aluminum tanks are readily available.
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So, fuel tanks removed. Only snapped 7 threads - had to grind the head off one bolt as it had rusted so badly that even my socket that grips on the flat couldn't get purchase. Not going to lie, after striking out completely on the RHS, it was clear that penetrating fluids weren't going to assist so I moved straight to shearing the heads off, figuring I could drill them later with better access if the tanks were savable.
Which was probably a fair approach, as the tanks are in poor shape. The LHS one I can see a hole in the bottom by looking in the top, and that's before any wire brush action. I know you can get tank liner, and I was planning on getting some, but unless anyone thinks these are fixable, I think we're looking at replacements. I don't have a magic money tree, but I did budget for this kind of setback, so looks like I'm in for a shiny set of new tanks...
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SJS ally tanks are good quality. You will need 8 metric bolts.
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SJS ally tanks are good quality. You will need 8 metric bolts.
Thanks for the recommendation. Will be having a shop around, but they do look pretty nice.
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To be honest the SJS tanks don't seem that badly priced given what's charged for other Lotus tanks, but if you can weld they're probably the easiest tank to DIY and you'll save a fair bit of the budget for stuff you can't do yourself. If you can weld and have a MIG set, then read on.
You can weld aluminium with a MIG welder, just use Al wire, Argon gas. Normally people on car forums think "TIG" for Aluminium but you don't need an A/C TIG set. Loads of aluminium is welded commercially with MIG, faster and much cheaper. As for the tanks, it's literally roll a sheet around a former and weld, slap on the end plates and you're 80% done. The tank with the sender is more complex but if you've got the first one made then you'll figure the second out, just a bit more welding.
I made mine in the 80s when there were literally none available anywhere, at any price. Not Lotus, Chris Neils, Spyder, none at all, the best I got was 2-3 months delivery. But it was my daily car so needed fixing PDQ. I can't recall how long it took but it was probably one of those weekend jobs, pull one out on Friday after work, hack a plywood former, weld it up for Sunday afternoon.
Still there, 35+yrs later..... but I do wish I'd fitted a larger bore crossover pipe, that was a slip-up.
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Thanks Brian - I can weld, but I would class my welding as "effective but ugly", or to steal a phrase I heard that fits it perfectly - "the grinder and paint makes me the welder I ain't" :)) I have welded up several cars whose integrity after the metal stitching was at least as strong as OEM, or in the case of the mini I seam welded up that would lift a front wheel as well when you jacked it up at the rear jacking point, rather more. But welding is not my lane, and for once, I'm staying out of it. Also, as a wiser man than me said, replace the tanks and get on with the next issue, and I have more than enough issues to address.
BTW I do appreciate the input though - this project is as much intellectual as physical stimulation, and I am very much enjoying the journey to understanding the car I'm rebuilding, even if the learning curve is quite steep at times. :FUNNY:
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Sleurs Motorsport - Episode 33 covers the making of aluminum fuel tanks - see link below:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDdLgLopw8g
I was highly impressed with this man's skill set which is way above mine. Well worth watching.
In fact I think you'll find that whole series of value - (well, I did anyway)
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Sleurs Motorsport - Episode 33 covers the making of aluminum fuel tanks - see link below:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDdLgLopw8g
I was highly impressed with this man's skill set which is way above mine. Well worth watching.
In fact I think you'll find that whole series of value - (well, I did anyway)
I've watched quite a few of his series of videos - absolutely take my hat off to him. And if needs must, I would have had a crack at it. But I think this is an area where buying in is the right call for me.
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Having had a slight petrol leak which resulted in whoomph, I decided the investment in two new shiny tanks from SJS was worth the investment.
The thought of another whoomph in my garage with my GT40 in it, was not a good thought.
Since fitting those new tanks, I sleep easier.
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Thanks for all the informative and useful petrol tank advice. As the fear of whoooosh / Fooooooooom is at the back of my mind ever since my then girlfriend's Beetle developed a fuel leak 30 years ago, I'll be opting for shiny replacements made by professionals.
The other issue which has been on my mind is the door hinges. I ended up having to hack saw through the hinge pins to remove the doors, and then bought spanners on eBay to get the hinges off the doors, which turned out to be another partial success. Two of the sets of nuts unwound off the thread, one top, the bottom on the other side. Despite repeated dousings in releasing fluid, the feeling was that the nuts did not want to release their grip. At which point I removed the end of the hinge assembly with a cutting disc.
The week's other development was the tentative agreement of the body shop chap to take on the body restoration. I think he was doubtful of my ability to strip the shell, and I don't blame him, but fingers crossed that is going to take the shell off my hands and let me focus on the broken Meccano set below. So mindful of the need to get new hinge fittings, I bought a set of hinges off eBay, which should hopefully make the removal and refitting of the doors a doddle!
The issues I had getting the hinges off were a surprise, but then again, if the bolts had been there for 50 years, perhaps it's understandable. Either way, I'm genuinely buzzing at the thought of getting the body off to the hands of proper experts, leaving me with the easy oily bits. :FUNNY:
All of which brings me to today's dumb question. Has anyone (preferably in the UK) got experience of insuring a car whilst half of it goes off to the menders? My first thought is that this is a case for a specialist broker like Adrian Flux, but if anyone has a recommendation, that would be great.
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1) The shop doing my repaint definitely wanted the doors and trunk lids so he could ensure good door gaps and general fit, even though I had already painted those bits. So you might want to get those hinges working again before you send the body.
2) My car has been off the road for 10 years. Not wanting to pay for collision insurance during that time, I had State Farm cut the insurance back to fire and theft, the likely risks ($16-23/year over the years). Maybe your current insurance can cover something similar.
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I have Lotus Supplies hinges which I’m pretty sure I installed before I gave the car to the paint shop. It’s easy to take the doors off and put back on again which makes them handy when having your body painted. The other advantage of them is that you can take the door off and only have to worry about adjusting the height when putting it back on. As Kendo says, you should give the paint/body shop all the pieces that you want painted.
Sorry, I’m not from the UK and I didn’t insure mine till I got it back on the road.
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All of which brings me to today's dumb question. Has anyone (preferably in the UK) got experience of insuring a car whilst half of it goes off to the menders? My first thought is that this is a case for a specialist broker like Adrian Flux, but if anyone has a recommendation, that would be great.
I insure my Europas with Hagerty.
it is certainly worth giving them a call.
If not yet registered, they will insure the car using only the chassis number.
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I insure my Europas with Hagerty.
it is certainly worth giving them a call.
If not yet registered, they will insure the car using only the chassis number.
I'll try Hagerty - the car is currently registered but SORNed.
Thanks for the other advice above from Kendo and BDA on the body shop - I'll be giving them the hinges to let them mount the doors and front and rear closures
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Being controversial, if the car is in bits, is it really worthwhile insuring it ? You could go for the purchase value but having stripped it down I'm not sure how they could realistically value something that's going to need (from the insurance company view) a load of labour spent to put it back together ?
The other thing is that if the body is going away for repair/paint then isn't it coming under the bodyshop's insurance whilst on their premises ?
Brian
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In Florida, If your garage is attached to your home it is considered part of the Dwelling. Articles inside garage are sometimes listed in that portion of your homeowners insurance. I'd talk with your homeowners insurance if only for partial coverage.
Dakazman
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Being controversial, if the car is in bits, is it really worthwhile insuring it ? You could go for the purchase value but having stripped it down I'm not sure how they could realistically value something that's going to need (from the insurance company view) a load of labour spent to put it back together ?
Brian
:I-agree: entirely.
If Cheguava was lucky enough to secure a policy I would very much doubt if he would be successful in making a claim.... for what exactly, for how much, and how would it be impartially assessed?
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Being controversial, if the car is in bits, is it really worthwhile insuring it ? You could go for the purchase value but having stripped it down I'm not sure how they could realistically value something that's going to need (from the insurance company view) a load of labour spent to put it back together ?
Brian
:I-agree: entirely.
If Cheguava was lucky enough to secure a policy I would very much doubt if he would be successful in making a claim.... for what exactly, for how much, and how would it be impartially assessed?
Good points both. I'm genuinely not sure how project insurance "works" and for that reason I think I probably need to speak to an insurer or broker to see if any policy would offer meaningful cover or be a wasted premium. I think there probably is an assessable value, given that the bodyshell does have a value, and if it is stolen or destroyed, would have to be replaced - that's the essence of insurance. I'm not sure it has much value, given it's off to have a lot of work lavished on it, but clearly it has some. That would be a matter for an assessor, should a loss occur. It's a valid point that the body shop should have cover for the items they are working on, so maybe I'm over thinking - it's a project that's cost a bit more than previous ones, and I'm trying not to make any stupid mistakes.
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If you'd just bought the car then I reckon you could insure it for the purchase price as a restoration project, the potential problem is that it's now a collection of bits and I would expect any insurer to ask "why do you want to insure now when you didn't bother when you bought it ?". If they are really cynical they might think "here's a guy who's taken on too much and there's a claim on the horizon". Yep, I am very cynical but it's good to put yourself in the other guy's shoes.
My cars are insured with Heritage and at one point I seem to remember they did an "off road" policy for SORN cars undergoing restoration. I've always found them helpful on the phone so perhaps a call might be worthwhile. If it sounds promising then you've already got photos of the car "as bought" & bill of sale which is what I'd expect them to ask for. You could explain that you stored it and have just started restoration and whereas it was safe/secure in storage, now the bodyshell is being transported elsewhere for professional repairs and you'd like cover. That's all true.
As you say there is a value and being very cynical, that's in the log book, number plate and VIN plate on the bodyshell. With a log book/plate you could stick it on a new body together with chassis/running gear and have a "restored" car which is registered at the DVLA as an historic vehicle. Whether anyone acknowledges that publicly is doubtful, but that's why we pay good money for a pile of bits with a Lotus badge on it.
Brian
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Again, good points, and thanks for the tip on Heritage. Up to now the whole lot's been locked in a garage with a car in front of it, so not so much at risk unless it catches fire. Now the bodyshell is coming out and being delivered for repair and respray, theft and possible fire or damage comes into play. But if the insurers can't provide meaningful cover, so be it - I guess if it's stolen or damaged at the body shop, I take it up with them. Definitely worth a call to understand the up and downsides.
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As a Europa is such a rare car, if it were stolen, we here on the forum would know about it and the chassis number etc, and it would be very hard to sell or display, especially in the UK where only 145 are supposed to be registered.
Fire is a much bigger risk/problem.
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As a Europa is such a rare car, if it were stolen, we here on the forum would know about it and the chassis number etc, and it would be very hard to sell or display, especially in the UK where only 145 are supposed to be registered.
Fire is a much bigger risk/problem.
Didn't realise that there were so few left, although I've never seen one on the road. I am also considering a plumbed in engine bay extinguisher for the completed car - as well as replacing all fuel hoses with modern ethanol resistant equivalents. Hoping not to be ever making a claim!
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Hi
I always thought the Europas were rare, and I am not sure of the exact figures but I believe they were produced in similar numbers to +2 variants. So not so rare really.
Berni
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Hi
I always thought the Europas were rare, and I am not sure of the exact figures but I believe they were produced in similar numbers to +2 variants. So not so rare really.
Berni
Hi Berni, sorry for any confusion - I was looking at the numbers left. By comparison, +2s are ten a penny! :D https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/lotus_elan_+2#!manufacture (https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/vehicle/lotus_elan_+2#!manufacture)
I guess I thought more would have been squirrelled away. It may be there are more like mine that was not on the current DVLA system as registered or SORNed until I bought it, or maybe not even still recorded. And given the rate of attrition that has befallen some of my previous cars like the Lancia Dedra, which are almost all in the crusher now, 100 or so left of original production is probably quite a strong % after 50 years.
Makes me doubly glad I got one in the colour I wanted - might have waited a while for another. Even if getting it back to that colour is going to take some time.
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Our fearless lsader, LotusJoe compiled production numbers here (https://www.lotuseuropa.org/production_figures.htm).
Less than 10,000 of all models, taking those numbers and figuring constant equal production month to month, there were 438 TCs like Cheguava has built in 1971 and 1184 built in 1972 for an estimated total of 1622 TCs total.
Taking TCs and TCSs together, there were about 4675 total (Wikipedia says there were 4950 TCs - apparently lumping TCs and TCSs).
According to Wikipedia, the exact number of Elan +2s built is unknown (really?!!) but it was estimated that 5200 produced.
I think any way you slice it, all of these are pretty rare. Not knowing anything about worldwide distribution, I find it interesting (and a bit sad) that there were more +2s built than TCs and TCSs but I've seen A LOT more TCs and TCSs than +2s including Lotus Ltd. (N. America Lotus Club) events.
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especially in the UK where only 145 are supposed to be registered.
It seems as at the last quarter of 2023 there were 114 taxed on the road, and 31 SORN, (Statutory Off Road Notice) so not being driven on the road.
Since then, I have registered 3 more, and have 2 more yet to be registered, and there are a couple of newly imported cars mentioned on this forum, so I reckon in the UK there are probably around 155ish of all types, S1, S2, TC, and TCS.
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What seems like disappointing news today - rang Spyder cars to enquire about their chassis reconditioning service. The chap who answered the phone told me their employee who dealt with that had left, and for the quantities required it was not worth training up somebody else. I'll email for confirmation, but it looks like this alternative for restoring my chassis isn't there.
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There was a post recently about someone wanting to buy the front crossmember and weld it themselves.
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=5708.msg62196#msg62196 (https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=5708.msg62196#msg62196)
To be honest I think it was priced to be refused and personally I think I'd either DIY repair what I had or go for a complete new chassis from Spyder with their rear suspension mods as well.
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I would only add that Lotus Supplies has a "spaceframe" chassis which might be considered an option if you choose to go with a new frame. Their twin link rear suspension. I don't know how their twin link design compares to Spyder's rear A-arm rear suspension. I agree with EuropaTC that a competent welder, especially one with experience with sheet metal fabrication, should be able to repair your frame. If you are handy with a welder, I would think you'd be able to take care of this but I suspect that you don't feel qualified since you're looking for other alternatives. You shouldn't have much trouble finding someone who can do a good job.
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I'll have to do some more research I think. The attraction of the Spyder refurb was them having a Europa jig to put it on and make sure that you got a mended and straight chassis back. I'll not be racing or trying to drive on the ragged edge once it's done, but the Europa was famed for its handling, so it would be a shame if it drove like a dog because the chassis or suspension mounting points aren't straight.
If it ends up as a new chassis, that's not the worst outcome. Just as well the body is saveable, otherwise we would be in Trigger's broom / woodman's axe territory!
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Hi
One of my plus2's came with a chassis that had been repaired and extensively strengthened. Shame one of the front turrets was not straight. I am not sure if it bent during the welding process or for some other reason. So if welding to repair yours I would take good measurements beforehand and also take precautions to minimise the heat to prevent distortion. So now the car has a Spyder chassis. If my Europa one is toast then I would just bite the bullet and get a new Spyder one. They don't seem to come up secondhand very often (unlike the plus 2 Spyder ones).
All the best
Berni
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To be honest I think it was priced to be refused and personally I think I'd either DIY repair what I had or go for a complete new chassis from Spyder with their rear suspension mods as well.
:I-agree:
I would look carefully into this - I have a Spyder re-worked chassis, specific to the front section, (see before and after pics).
It is a great job and I have no complaints BUT knowing what I know now, I think I would have invested more in this area in the form of a complete new chassis including the redesigned rear suspension components including revised rear hubs - this route would also accommodate alternative gearbox options if you decide to go down that road.
Not cheap though. :(
Sleurs Motorsport does a very good video of remaking the front section of his chassis - too advanced for me though.
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Not made much progress - waiting for the body shop to come and have another look, so just tidying up mostly, and looking at chassis options.
Spyder have confirmed that they are no longer making replacement chassis for the Europa, which is pretty sad, so that option is now out.
Good afternoon Jeff
Thank you for your enquiry.
Sadly, due to the decline in Europa parts we no longer manufacture chassis and parts.
Best regards
Andy
Understandable if it's not economic to continue with it, so will have to look at alternatives.
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Spyder have confirmed that they are no longer making replacement chassis for the Europa, which is pretty sad, so that option is now out.
Good afternoon Jeff
Thank you for your enquiry.
Sadly, due to the decline in Europa parts we no longer manufacture chassis and parts.
Best regards
Andy
Now that is worrying.... :(
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Hmm, that's not good news at all. I have no immediate plans to rip my car apart but should I ever need to make drastic changes I would certainly have looked at the Spyder chassis & suspension package. I'm a bit surprised they have left the market, I can understand why they wouldn't hold stock items but making to order would seem practical ?
Brian
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As Spyder are no longer interested in making Europa chassis, is it worth asking them where the fabricator went, and if he has not retired and is still working? It would be good to contact him and see if he is interested.
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As Spyder are no longer interested in making Europa chassis, is it worth asking them where the fabricator went, and if he has not retired and is still working? It would be good to contact him and see if he is interested.
That is a question worth asking, I will do so and share what I find out. In my original call to Spyder, they did suggest I contact Banks, which I will also do, as well as another couple of lines of enquiry. Staying positive, as there are undoubtedly going to be more challenges ahead.
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Slow down a bit. Spyder has said it no longer makes a “replacement” chassis for the Europa. Spyder and Banks stopped making replacement chassises a while ago due to legal action by Lotus. They both still make their own space-frame chassis.
So, yes, you can’t get a chassis to the original design from Spyder but you can get a space frame chassis.
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Slow down a bit. Spyder has said it no longer makes a “replacement” chassis for the Europa. Spyder and Banks stopped making replacement chassises a while ago due to legal action by Lotus. They both still make their own space-frame chassis.
So, yes, you can’t get a chassis to the original design from Spyder but you can get a space frame chassis.
What they said (verbatim) was "Sadly, due to the decline in Europa parts we no longer manufacture chassis and parts." Perhaps I have misunderstood that, but I don't think so. I'll try and clarify that, as a space frame chassis would be fine.
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I think that leaves Lotus Supplies as the only supplier of Europa frames. And with Richard getting older (aren't we all?) and his health has not been that great in the past, he may no longer be an option soon. I hope he has a plan to hand over his fabrication business to a younger guy. Hopefully, there will be enough business for one company to provide these basic parts for the small number of our cars left on the road (and aspirants to being on the road).
It's a pretty simple design. Maybe someone should come up with a detailed drawing so that it can be replicated by anybody in the future.
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It's worth a mention that SJ Sportscars list replacement original type chassis on their website to 5 different designs, for example
https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ046A0002.htm
Of course "listed" isn't always the same thing as available in practice, but it might be. If you're patient. And if SJS can get them then perhaps some of the other usual suspects can too. I am curious to know who might be the supplier for SJS. Gartrac maybe?
https://www.gartrac.com/pages/lotus-chassis-fabrication
https://www.instagram.com/p/C6WhEmDIZ6V/?img_index=4
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Gartrac certainly seems like a candidate to take up the Europa torch but for the moment, they appear to be happy with their Elan frame business. Since the Spyder website has not been updated with their new Europa policy it doesn't give any clues about changes to their Elan frame and parts business. Presumably, they still make Elan tube frames. If so, that begs the question why drop Europa frames and parts? I don't see why any different skills are required to build a Europa fram than an Elan frame. Certainly they still have the jigs and patterns, etc. to build them. I can see how stocking frames would be an expense they might not want to have, of course.
And that would bring up the possibility of somebody buying their patterns, jigs, drawings, etc. and producing their own copies of Spyder's frames.
The more I think about it, the more questions I have but one thing we have to come to terms with is that for whatever reason, Elans are more popular than Europas and so support for Europas will be an even more niche business than Elans (in spite of the fact that according to Wikipedia, there were roughly the same number of Elans and Europas built).
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I imagine for a lot of people "Little British car" == convertible.
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Also, I thought I read here about someone looking for a front frame section from Spyder, that they had stopped making it because the person retired. (But I can't find the reference going back several pages in this thread.)
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I don't remember which thread (maybe earlier in this thread?) but I remember pretty much the same thing. I don't remember if the guy who retired/left retrofitted new 'T' sections onto a customer's frame or just made them to be grafted on. I think the former. I'm not a welder but I can sort of see (and maybe I'm wrong) where you'd want somebody with experience to do that but to build their own tube frame... I don't get it.
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I thought Nukem (maybe?) was working on a t-section replacement?
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It's been a quiet few weeks - a combination of house guests and still waiting to ship the body off for restoration, but hopefully that should be happening this month. I've spun the car round so I can pull the chassis out easier - as an eejit I didn't realise that the engine height meant it would be far easier to wheel it out backwards.
The rust in the chassis at the front unfortunately extends backwards of the T piece - the handbrake pivot bolt tube has distorted as a result of the rust, the top of the chassis there has torn, so it does look like a full new chassis might be the best solution. I'm still researching where that might best be sourced, but have a little time whilst I disassemble the suspension and drivetrain elements.
The sheer weight of the bulkhead fire / soundproofing was astonishing - somewhere around 8-9 kilos, the original (coconut matting?) seems undamaged but perhaps modern substitutes could do the job better?
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In the absence of Spyder, I would go with Lotus Supplies. It looks like they have a spaceframe chassis. In addition to reproduction Lotus frames.
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That is quite rusty ! :o
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It's been a quiet few weeks - a combination of house guests and still waiting to ship the body off for restoration, but hopefully that should be happening this month. I've spun the car round so I can pull the chassis out easier - as an eejit I didn't realise that the engine height meant it would be far easier to wheel it out backwards.
The rust in the chassis at the front unfortunately extends backwards of the T piece - the handbrake pivot bolt tube has distorted as a result of the rust, the top of the chassis there has torn, so it does look like a full new chassis might be the best solution. I'm still researching where that might best be sourced, but have a little time whilst I disassemble the suspension and drivetrain elements.
The sheer weight of the bulkhead fire / soundproofing was astonishing - somewhere around 8-9 kilos, the original (coconut matting?) seems undamaged but perhaps modern substitutes could do the job better?
I don’t know if you have the time to download the blueprints of the S2 frame and make comments and dimensions. Others have been looking for Tc frame dimensions. See link
http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/Lotus%20europa%20chassis%20drawing.pdf
It may help you also if you attempt to repair yourself.
Serge also rebuilt his frame and has them documented on YouTube.
Dakazman
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Quote from Cheguava's post above - "The sheer weight of the bulkhead fire / soundproofing was astonishing - somewhere around 8-9 kilos, the original (coconut matting?) seems undamaged but perhaps modern substitutes could do the job better?"
I am thinking way ahead here but I know this is an area I have equally to address in due course - what has been the common repair/replacement for this "firewall" ?
Is it intended to function as a firewall or as a sound deadening barrier?
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I assumed that the material attached to the bulkhead from the engine side, was there to waterproof the bulkhead, which is made from thick cardboard and therefore highly absorbent to any water.
I have used black vinyl floor covering material, used for bathroom floors. Easily available, easily cut, and obviously very waterproof.
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Not that I doubt you - but why would Lotus want to waterproof the bulkhead?
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Not that I doubt you - but why would Lotus want to waterproof the bulkhead?
Rainwater getting splashed up into the engine bay would get absorbed by the cardboard material used in the bulkhead.
Many Europas suffer from that cardboard crumbling as it is saturated. You have to remove the defective cardboard and replace with plywood and fibreglass over the plywood. Wet cardboard just falls apart.
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I found this thread on the LotusEuropa group that might give you some ideas (https://groups.io/g/LotusEuropa/topic/71913211#msg161028).
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The original bulkhead, at least on my TCS was made from particle board., which is probably as absorbent as cardboard. As I understand it, its main function is to stiffen the body perpendicular to the fore/aft axis.
Since mine was decomposed, I replaced it with 1/2”? The right thickness of marine grade plywood. But others have used honeycomb aluminum and other extremely stiff, and fireproof, panels. Others still have added soundproofing to the cabin side. Ill probably add that when I do the interior in the next few months
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The bulkhead serves all three purposes: structural, fire barrier and soundproofing. The structural part is (I believe) low density fiberboard (LDF). On the engine side is a layer of sound deadening felt with latex waterproofing, similar to this
https://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/p-1384-sound-deadening-felt
The sound deadening felt from Woolies is also fire retardant. On the cabin side is a sheet of hardboard (aka beaverboard, masonite, etc.) covered in carpet (but you all knew that).
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It's been a little while since I last posted, but I've been soldiering on, and am delighted to announce that the car is back on its wheels. The suspension's very poor though, and it handles like a shopping trolley. :)) Currently awaiting collection by the bodyshop, but they want to get a current project out of the door before taking mine in, which is absolutely fair but I have no patience. Anyway, have started cracking on loosening bolts all round the chassis so I can get it all apart, and just took delivery of an engine crane to get the engine and transmission out.
As previously stated, looks like a new chassis will be incoming, along with most other metallic bits. I think the wishbones may be ok once blasted or dipped - this one that some numbskull put a jack under looks salvageable but we'll see better once it's off. Pretty much every brake component bar the disc shrouds is going to need replacing I think, and every suspension component too bar the wishbones if they can be saved. Woodman's axe anyone?
Looking on the bright side, the engine number does tie up with the registration, and is the period correct V prefix denoting S/E Dellorto - Domestic Europa very late 1971, and I can expect a heady 112-115bhp according to Miles Wilkins. In two minds about the engine at present, will be getting the top cover off to inspect the top of the head and timing chain etc, and inspect the bores etc using a camera. However, the best time to get the engine overhauled professionally would be when you've stripped the car right down, not after putting it back together!
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Hi
There is a 6mm fireproof composite board available the would be great for a replacement firewall. Its commonly used as a tile backer board. Something like this:
https://www.flooringmaterials.co.uk/product/wedi-6mm-tile-backer-board-1250mm-x-600mm
Very light, super stiff, can cut with a box cutter. Would glass in easily.
Berni
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The thread seems to have moved on a bit from discussions on chassis and I've only just picked it up so apologies if this has already been noted.
There is CAD data for the front chassis section on the forum is this thread I created:
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=6397.0
This might be another option as opposed to a new space frame (and certainly much cheaper).
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Hi
There is a 6mm fireproof composite board available the would be great for a replacement firewall. Its commonly used as a tile backer board. Something like this:
https://www.flooringmaterials.co.uk/product/wedi-6mm-tile-backer-board-1250mm-x-600mm
Very light, super stiff, can cut with a box cutter. Would glass in easily.
Berni
Thanks Berni, I was thinking of using marine ply but that looks like it would do the job better.
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That wedi product is a fibre cement skin over extruded polystyrene core. It's relatively weak and brittle, and that makes me twitch at the thought of putting it in a car. According to Mike Kimberley, the firewall is a structural element. He wanted marine ply and argued with ACBC about it. We know who won that argument at first, but Mike got his way eventually and the Esprit got a marine ply firewall.
The firewall assembly can be made fire resistant by adding a fireproof layer on the engine side, even if the structural part isn't itself totally fireproof. For what it's worth, if you were building an experimental aircraft, the FAA would accept a 0.015 inch thick layer of stainless steel as your firewall. Of course that's overkill for a car, but it makes a point.
Marine ply is one good option for the structural part, but there are also a variety of premade sandwich panels available that would be stronger than this tile backer board, and lighter than marine ply. If you are comfortable with glassing things in then you could make your own. I think end grain balsa would be a good choice for a core material. It has excellent structural properties, it's light, affordable and very easy to work with.
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/builderresources/while-youre-building/building-articles/engines-and-firewalls/firewalls
https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/foam-cored-carbon-fibre-panel
https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/end-grain-balsa-wood
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I am going to try Coosa Board when I get to that point , it’s from the marine industry and is supposed to be flame retardant etc
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Yes, it looks like Coosa board could fit the bill.
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That wedi product is a fibre cement skin over extruded polystyrene core. It's relatively weak and brittle, and that makes me twitch at the thought of putting it in a car. According to Mike Kimberley, the firewall is a structural element. He wanted marine ply and argued with ACBC about it. We know who won that argument at first, but Mike got his way eventually and the Esprit got a marine ply firewall.
The firewall assembly can be made fire resistant by adding a fireproof layer on the engine side, even if the structural part isn't itself totally fireproof. For what it's worth, if you were building an experimental aircraft, the FAA would accept a 0.015 inch thick layer of stainless steel as your firewall. Of course that's overkill for a car, but it makes a point.
Marine ply is one good option for the structural part, but there are also a variety of premade sandwich panels available that would be stronger than this tile backer board, and lighter than marine ply. If you are comfortable with glassing things in then you could make your own. I think end grain balsa would be a good choice for a core material. It has excellent structural properties, it's light, affordable and very easy to work with.
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/builderresources/while-youre-building/building-articles/engines-and-firewalls/firewalls
https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/foam-cored-carbon-fibre-panel
https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/end-grain-balsa-wood
Thanks for this, much food for thought! I'm happy to glass in the replacement material, which is just as well, as the integrity of the original material has somewhat diminished.
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The thread seems to have moved on a bit from discussions on chassis and I've only just picked it up so apologies if this has already been noted.
There is CAD data for the front chassis section on the forum is this thread I created:
https://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=6397.0
This might be another option as opposed to a new space frame (and certainly much cheaper).
Thanks for pointing this out, may be very helpful to others. Unfortunately not going to be useful for me, as I don't have the skills, and also the chassis is not great behind the T piece - as you might be able to see from the photo the handbrake pivot has been pulled away from the chassis, and the metal is torn. At the base, similarly there seems less metal than originally present. Hence the replacement chassis plan.