Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: thehackmechanic on Wednesday,March 28, 2018, 02:00:10 PM
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Hey, folks. I'm rebuilding the twin cam motor in my '74 TCS after many years of inactivity (the car was last driven in 1979). I got the lower end parts back from the machinist and have the crank and pistons in. Very exciting! I have a few questions.
1) Water Pump. The pump was stuck but good. I had to use a slide hammer on the hub to get the front housing off the engine. The pump itself turns only with great difficulty. I was assuming I'd spend the money and buy Dave Bean's cartridge-style pump (the Burton cartridge-style pump only appears to be configured for Elans, not Europas), but it is on backorder. I call every month and there's been no change in status. So I'm reconsidering the idea of idea of going back to the stock setup, but I'm afraid that I might screw it up. Is there anyone to whom I could send the front cover and have them send it back to me with a new pump in it?
2) Gasket Sealant. I'm following Miles Wilkins' engine book. He recommends against Hylomar, and specifically recommends Stag Wellseal. I see on forums where people are still using Hylomar, or Permatex "The Right Stuff." Any recommendations for general gasket sealant?
Thanks.
--Rob
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Hey Rob! Glad you finally got your motor from the machine shop!
I know this doesn't answer either of your questions but I thought I'd mention that there has been some intriguing chatter on the yahoo group about electric water pumps. Here's the one that is usually mentioned (http://daviescraig.com.au/product/ewp80-electric-water-pump/ewp80-electric-water-pump). It might be worth looking into it.
Edit...
Looking around, I found these guys in England who seem to have a similar setup (http://initracing.co.uk/parts-for-sale/lotus-twin-cam-front-cover/).
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Thanks. I'm aware of the electric water pump solution, but I believe that, for that to work, you need to have an intact non-leaking water pump seal in your front cover, and the odds of that being the case in mine are slim.
--Rob
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Different sealants for different locations. I use oil-proof silicone (Permatex or 3-Bond), aviation gasket cement, hylomar, and plain old grease depending on the application.
General notes:
- do not use silicone sealers where there is pressure or where there is coolant
- use silicone sealers sparingly. Too many engines die when a chunk of dried silicone plugs an oil way.
- grease is great where there are machined surfaces and you may have to repeatedly assemble and disassemble.
- hylomar is excellent between machined surfaces with no gasket, and, where you may want to reuse the gasket (thermostat)
- I use a #2 aviation gasket goo quite a bit. I cut my teeth using it on air-cooled VWs and have ‘t been able to break the habit.
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Rob, did you see the edit to my earlier post?
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My two cents,
I removed the water pump guts completely after three engine removals since 1986 for the water pump. I made an o ring plug for the water pump bearing bore and threaded the weep hole for a small allen head plug.
The Davies Craig pump works great. It is installed right at the engine water inlet. I kept all the heater and coolant makeup lines the same as original.
As far as sealant, I went by Wilkins book and sealed the o rings and front cover with ultra black, many times. Never had a leak. The pressurized tube of ultra black works well to make a thin bead.
One last thing, I pressure test the water jacket to 12 psiafter engine assembly to make sure the water seals and head gasket are tight.
Good luck!
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BDA, I see it now, thanks. I'll follow up on it.
--Rob
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I have had excellent results with this product.
(http://www.lotuseuropa.org/gallery/albums/album13/1211Sealant.jpeg)
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Is there anyone to whom I could send the front cover and have them send it back to me with a new pump in it?
Thanks.
--Rob
Rob,
I know Don Butler of "Unionjack Exotics" out of Maryland would do it just as you say. Ship it to him, he'll do the work and ship it back. Quality job, very experienced. Good luck.
TED
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Got it, Ted. Thanks so much.
--Rob
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Hi Rob,
I have tried the 3 bond/yamabond/hondabond stuff...great on transmission halves where there are no gaskets....but on gaskets...well, then you have to break the gasket in half to get it apart. I did it on a transmission, and had a really hard time getting the pieces apart without damaging anything (including the aluminum case). So I wouldn't recommend it for gasket use. I still use hylomar, since the gaskets will release and are often reusable. I've also used 'the right stuff' and had good success, though that is for when you don't have a gasket and had one before....
As for the pump, I would assume any formula ford engine rebuild firm could do it, like Vegher in Petaluma, www.omnitech-engineering.com in Seattle (john McCoy), iveyengines.com out of Portland OR, or Steve Smith of TwinCam Sports Cars out of Sarasota FL to name a few.
Hope this helps.....Jerry Rude 4005R
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So, related question. I see how the Elan/Cortina front cover that Burton sells for its cartridge pump is different from the Europa's front cover -- that the water passage exits to the side whereas on the Europa the side passage is shut with a plug and the passage is instead from the front -- but what is it on the Europa that prohibits use of the side water passage? Forgive the newbie question, but the engine is out of the car; I can't judge what would be in the way. Is there no way to simply use an S-shaped hose?
Thanks.
--Rob
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Chassis gets in the way.
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Right. Yes. Thanks. I suppose it had to be something like that or they just would've used an S-shaped hose at the factory instead of changing the front timing cover. Oh well...
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Should be pretty easy to modify on of the cassette water pump covers by welding on an alloy spigot, etc.
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Can someone verify the cartridge is genuinely better? Can't the cover be serviced with a standard pump and last 10 to 20 years?
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I installed the cartridge water pump on my Elan but not on the Europa. Why? The Europa doesn’t have the alternator belt stress on the water pump so I figured it would last longer. Time will tell if I made the right decision.
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I bought the cartridge pump from Bean, and he or Ken said the rebuild kit for it is from an Esprit, so a slightly larger bearing should help longevity. I've had mine on for 30k miles so far, no problems.
Jerry Rude
4005R
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Can't the cover be serviced with a standard pump and last 10 to 20 years?
Yes, it's no doubt a controversial statement but the water pump isn't as bad as internet myth would have you believe. People talk about it because to replace one you need to remove head & sump so it's a major job compared with most other cars. Miles Wilkins touches on them in his TC engine book (and also cartridge replacements) and he claims under-use is more likely to cause them to fail than anything else, citing 50/60K as a minimum expectation.
As already mentioned, belt over-tightness is given as the usual reason for failure on the Elan and of course it's not possible to do the same on the Europa. Miles says the same in his book and cites it as the reason the Europa pumps last longer. Personally I'm not sold about the belt over tightening rumour because I'd be expecting dynamo/alternators to be going at the same rate if that were the cause, but I do run the Elan belt quite loose, just in case ;)
Brian
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I bought my TCS in 1974, and the water pump failed after approx 18K miles.
Rebuilt the front cover with a new pump kit.
Pump failed again after approx 12K miles.
I made an o-ringed plug to fit in place of the pump bearing in the front cover. ....Mounted a B&G circulating pump up front by the radiator. ...Circulator was driven by a 12v blower motor. ...This was used while doing research.
I had a damaged front cover from a previous mishap. ....I had it welded-up and machined to accept a cartridge-style pump insert which I designed and had a friend machine for me. ....I had spoken to an engineer at Airtex, and he felt the original pump bearing was undersized for its application, and he supplied me with a larger bearing. ...This was around 1976-1977, before anyone was making & selling cartridge pumps & covers. ...I also installed cogged pulleys and belt availablefrom Dave Bean (?) at the time. ...This prevented any belt slip due to belt stretch.
This set-up was still in place when the Europa was parked in 1979 or 1980.
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I like Brian Buckland [Lotus Elan book] idea of making gaskets for the front cover.
I also use Loctite 574 Flange Sealant the stuff Mike Miller [BMW tech guy] uses.
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Just in case anyone missed Rob "thehackmechanic's" latest Europa article, here it is: https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2018/03/26/lotus-twin-cam-engine-repair?utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_content=18_Apr_04_HagertyNews
Unlike his prior pieces on the subject, this one is teetering on the edge of optimism. It is up to us, fellow members of the Europa Victims Support Group, to push him over the edge into full fledged enthusiasm and get him to finish his build, if for no other reason than for him to write a piece for Haggerty extolling the virtues of the Europa and in so doing raise their value in the collector market! >:D
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Rob, I bought a new cartridge water pump from Bean for my Elan so I can relate to your wanting one to eliminate the potential of a problem later on. But I gotta tell you, for a guy who is on a budget I'm not sure that is were I would have spent my money. Personally, I would be buying axle hub bearings & seals and a really nice set of new shocks & springs.
Great article by the way! Keep the faith.
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I don't think you can pull the cartridge out of the Europa with the engine in place?
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Bruce, excellent point! I think you are right......
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+1 on the stock water pump being just fine and the by far cheaper option. Just make sure the belt is not tight and it will last a long, long time. Spend the money saved elsewhere.
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The day of reckoning has come. I have the engine out, the head off and the cover on my bench. All the rebuild parts are next to it. How in the HECK do you get the old parts out? I was able to hold the pulley side in a vice and twist the pump a tiny bit. I heated the pump portion and it got tighter. Tried to cut the shaft off the pulley side, burned the teeth off my saws all.
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Firstly, it won't move fore/aft because there's a circlip behind the front pulley. Use a 2 or 3 leg puller to get the drive pulley off the shaft and then remove the bearing wire "clip" behind it. This is steel on steel so you can apply some heat if needed to help things along. I can't see you cutting the shaft off without an angle grinder cutting disc.
Best practice now is to heat the cover, boiling water would be find should you have enough available but I've either used a paint stripper hot air gun or before that, a propane torch. (smelly ;) ) Whatever expansion you can get into the aluminium is good.
Then you can press out the bearing shaft which should take the impeller, seals and bearing with it. You need a press and good support on the aluminium front cover. I used a massive old fashioned 6" vice because you don't need a lot of force, just that it needs to be applied nice & squarely.
Brian