Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Tdskip on Thursday,February 06, 2020, 12:32:04 PM
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hello gentlemen – brand new member here, I was referred by the helpful people over on the lotus élan forum where I am getting a 1969 Elan back on the road .
i’ve come across a 1970 Europa, twin cam but not running but I was hoping to get some rough idea of value on. The car is cosmetically quite good, interior looks to be all they are but has somewhere, engine spins freely but missing its carbs and there’s one open spark plug hole . Underside looks decent but used, evidence of some oil leaks. Clean title.
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I know this is worthless without pictures, trying to shrink the size of the photos I took, thanks for being patient
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Pictures - thanks in advance for the coaching.
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Last ones. Thanks!
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If you go to the Hagarty Insurance website and find the valuation tool, it will give you a pretty realistic amount to start with. You can input many of the " condition" qualifiers that would apply to this example. Regardless, I would personally examine the frame as thoroughly as possible to look for frame rust. For the Europa, this is a make or break factor.
Good luck.
Bob
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Hi Bob, thanks for the response. I have a couple cars with hagerty but I personally have found, and there’s certainly room for disagreement on this, that their valuations tend to be on the optimistic side.
I’d be inclined to call this a #4 because healthy engines generally don’t have their carbs removed and are missing spark plugs. Grin.
Kidding aside I have to assume that the engine needs a rebuild. I didn’t get a picture of it but when I got the camera up underneath the car the frame looked solid, it’s a long term dry California/Arizona car .
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What's it worth?
That's a tough question. It's worth what the seller is prepared to take and the buyer is willing to pay. Smart-ass answer I know but trying to value something "over the phone" is very difficult.
Some questions:
Is it a five speed transaxle?
Any idea why the carbs are off? And, the one spark plug out?
Is the body just dirty or is it scratched and nicked as well? (hard to tell from the photos)
Why is the passenger seat out?
If you can live with the body and interior just cleaned up, then I would budget for an engine overhaul. Maybe not but always assume the worst so it doesn't surprise you later.
My wild guess would be $6K. More if it is a five speed. More again if the engine can be proven sound.
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Thanks for the response – I know I’ve asked a bit of an impossible to answer question because there are so many unknowns. If it were in Alfa or air cooled German thing I’d have a better sense but these cars are very new to me. That said It didn’t “feel” more than where you suggested it might fall.
Edit - I do not know if it’s a four or five speed car. I thought these would all be five speeds, oops!
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Here are my 2 cents worth. There is a lot of non-original things going on with this car.
- front indicator lights moved
- Lotus Components chin spoiler
- Non stock dash
- Aftermarket steering wheel
- Aftermarket shift knob
- Transaxle and susupension painted non stock colors
Some of these are not big things to people but there is definitely some modifications going on with this car. Sometimes this will affect valuation and sometimes not, in this case I would say they are more things to correct. If you are looking to compare it to an all original car for valuation.
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The door plate indicates that it was built in February, 1974 so it cannot be a 1970, but probably a 1974. If you can, get a picture of the build plate located in the front compartment, It will give you the "vin" number of the car, probably 74024304R, the engine number and the trans axle number. That will let you check the engine and trans axle to confirm it's a numbers matching car. Based on the info you have so far, my guess is that it is a Twin Cam Special" with a 5 speed trans axle. It will also tell you the original paint color, although my experience is that the color code can be wrong. No explanation, mine says black while the car is brown.
JBCOLLIER and ROSCO5000 have made good points.
Good Luck!
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The ashtray is missing. $1000 less due to that part missing. 8)
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Tdskip ,welcome the forum .
I hope you find an answer and continue visiting the site. Be sure to register it at LotusEuropa.com , registry.
Dakazman
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actually the dash and gear knob are the nicer parts of the car! :)
to get an idea of price, I've got mine you can look over for comparison in detail (60+ pictures) I have for sale on my "hobby" website www.TaylorMadeClassicCars.com
it hasn't sold yet, but i'm being patient.
owning both an Elan and Europa is the sure sign of a true Lotus enthusiast!
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I can't really tell you what it's worth, but I can tell you that they hold their value: I bought mine for $5000 in 1986, and it's still worth that!😊
That's despite what I've put into it (and inflation).
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Thanks for all of the thoughts gentlemen.
Nice to see you here too Ted, thanks for the link.
Sorry I said 1970in my message, as the title indicated it is indeed a ‘74.
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I saw your post on the Elan forum as well. Perhaps you could reach out to other SoCal Europa owners who could help with an inspection? Joji (aka grumblebuns) has several Europas and is super helpful on the forum. He is in San Diego. Good luck with it!
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I have bought cars in that condition for between $6,000 and $10,000.
Does it have gas struts on the engine cover, and a map box on the engine bulkhead between the seats, and cloth inserts for the seats?
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I have bought cars in that condition for between $6,000 and $10,000.
Does it have gas struts on the engine cover, and a map box on the engine bulkhead between the seats, and cloth inserts for the seats?
Looking at the pics you can see the map pocket between the seats (through the windscreen) and the cloth inserts in the seats.
The front spoiler looks like the one i have fitted to my car - Banks origin.
I would check around the nose area for any signs of repair to the fibreglass, with the front indicator 'warts' not being present it could have had a front section replaced at some point (could be the angle of the pictures but the headlamp/top of the front wing area doesn't look Twin cam to me) and the replacement section may have been from an earlier car (S1's didn't have the indicators).
This would also make me want to check around the front end generally as if it has had damage to the front at some point then there is a chance that the chassis/suspension could be past their best (or not suitable for refurbish which makes any rebuild more costly!). Likewise, with the various parts painted 'non original' colours etc it may have been restored/rebuilt at some point already - they are old enough to have received a couple of rebuilds by now after all!
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Good catch, it is a low nose front. You would want to inspect the car very carefully before committing to buy.
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I saw your post on the Elan forum as well. Perhaps you could reach out to other SoCal Europa owners who could help with an inspection? Joji (aka grumblebuns) has several Europas and is super helpful on the forum. He is in San Diego. Good luck with it!
That is who I bought my Elan project from!
Great input gentlemen, thank you.
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For a car that spent its life in dry states, there sure is a lot of corrosion in the engine bay. Overall the car from the few photos doesn't look too bad. I could go either way in the wart removal. Sticking the turn indicator lights in the intake screen is a quick and dirty solution to not making new holes in the body.
If you want to verify if the front has a low nose, there is a simple way to check if you're not familiar with how a stock TCS front nose is suppose to look. Place a level just in front of the headlight ring and measure straight down to the edge of the front hood. The stock TCS should be around 4" and the low nose front should be around 3". The measurements came from two TCSs, one S2 and one S1. Only the S1 had the 3" nose. See photo for setup.
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Hi and welcome as a newbie myself take my contribution with a pinch of salt. I recently sold a 73 TCS in very similar condition, non running, bits missing and tired interior for $8,500, it did however have new (refurbished) carbs and freshly refurbished wheels with new tires (figure $1200 cost for all that) and was a 5 speed.
Hope this helps in your evaluation.
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You all are giving the Elan forum a run for their money on being ridiculously helpful, very much appreciated, thank you.
I’d like to thank a certain San Diego gentlemen for his help and cooperation (here and on the Elan).
I have decided not to pursue this car, too many unknowns and warning bells. I believe that this and other one are in the process of being purchased as a pair. I should also really make sure the Elan is a driver before taking on another project.
Thank you again.
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Looks like it has lower adjustable links in the rear (good support for it to be a Special) and maybe I see brake boosters there too. Having a five speed is at least a $1000 positive, so worth noting- there should be a small, round aluminum tag on one of the rear housing bolts indicating the transmission type number (hopefully not missing).
Lots of custom work though which takes value down, and an unknown engine condition. Huge risk since you can’t drive it to see what condition everything else is in, but looking at it’s condition, I’d say you’d be in for all mechanical systems at least (engine, brakes, bushings, bearings, trunnions, boosters...). Peek behind/under the dash to see how much “custom” wiring has been done...
Your $5k value is probably solid, many of the parts on the car are worth that alone though.
Hagerty values are always on the higher side- #1 condition is considered not achievable (like a perfect score)- most gleaming show cars are really #2, etc.- this is probably a #5..
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Good morning - wanted to provide an update here. A local dealer picked these cars up.
I don’t have any skin in this other than wanting to make the cars find a good home.
The green one cleaned up very well, red is still solid but scruffy.