Deep question: Are project Europas more sought-after than restored Europas?

[FourLoti]

Hello:

This question is probably moot for this audience, since most of us are here because we either are already DIY junkies, or ended up with a problem car and are learning how to deal with it. But if you're like me, the allure of a "project" listing is often so strong that optimism can quickly overcome logic. E.G., "I'm sure I could fix/get that thing running myself and make/save some money" etc.

This has to do with my internal debate re: if/when to sell 3826R, (see my recent Graduation Photos thread,) and it boils down to how much more work I should do to this former garage find, vs. leaving it for the next owner, and I suspect there may be a case of diminishing returns here.

The list of things that have been done/fixed during the last year is way too long to post without a spreadsheet, but here are the remaining priorities as I see them:

Functionality A - Repair or replace the (very slowly) seeping OE radiator – and also hoses.
Functionality B – Re-seal leaking right trans output shaft
Functionality C (optional) – Decide on .7” Master Cylinder, or restore & replace boosters, or keep as is - pedal is firm but braking is quite effective

Drivability/comfort A – Tires that aren’t 40-years old
Drivability/comfort B – Shocks/springs that aren’t 50-years old and can't be adjusted for ride height
Drivability/comfort C – New motor & trans mounts (eventually)
Drivability/comfort D – Suspension bushings (maybe)

Other stuff A – Window rattles

Other than future paint correction and cosmetic things like a typical split seam in the passenger seat bolster, that's honestly all I can think of that could make the difference between listing it as a "Driving Project" or as "Completely Refurbished." 

So I guess I'm hoping to get a consensus from the brain trust here, as which of the above listing titles would get the most attention, and what is the ROI of fixing some or all of the things on the list. For example, Even the cheapest new tires would completely transform the driving experience, but an enthusiast buyer IMO, could want to be able to make the tire/shock decision to suit their own tastes, so why should I put another $500 into it? And I probably should do something about the seeping radiator but again, since it's such an original survivor example, I could see some buyers wanting to have the original radiator re-cored. And perhaps sooner or later want to go through the transmission and fit new seals in the process.

I'm in no hurry to sell, and am not really tired of working on it, just wrestling with what next steps make the most sense.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Ron

[Richard48Y]

New tires equals safety.
Eng/trans mounts equals a nuisance job that is actually not all that difficult, but any new buyer would be glad it is already done.
Include trailing arms mounts.

[BDA]

A couple of thoughts (let's see if I can make any sense!)...

I wonder about the use potential resale value in deciding anything done with a car. Unless you are Bob Herzog and you're restoring an Elan, the likelihood that you'll make any money or even recoup a substantial amount of your outlay is minimal. He recently sold an Elan he restored for $82K and if he made money, his labor was cheap.  I do realize that your post is also about what to do to enhance the possibility of a smooth sale which I think is the more valid question to ask.

The easiest sale would be for an original car, the better the condition the better. Mods cut out potential buyers because you need to find a buyer who would want those mods. Original cars also remove the question of the quality of the engineering and workmanship. However, I think some mods do not fall into that category (e.g. aluminum radiator, shocks, booster delete - as long as the proper M//C is part of that, DB cassette water pump, headers, etc.).

Leaks and other problems are going to make it harder to sell and reduce the sale price disproportionately. The buyer has to go through the hassle and work to fix the leak and it could be more complicated than it first appears. Unexplained noises, depending on if you can tell where they're coming from could be a real problem. Messy or kludgy repairs are a downer too.

Looking at your list with an eye toward a potential near(er) term sale and assuming the capability which you appear to have, I would make the car as useful and reliable with the least cash outlay as I could. The first things I'd do is fix leaks (and hoses) and replace your tires. Keep in mind that the tranny output shaft leak can be fixed in situ but is best fixed by pulling the tranny (really not THAT big of a job).

I'm unclear if your brakes are working well. If they are, I'd leave them alone. Of course, if pads and shoes are needed or minor repairs are needed, I'd make them. While I am driving and enjoying my car before a sale, I'd probably not go to the trouble of deleting the boosters. Otherwise if or when you have braking problems like losing fluid or poor braking performance, I would delete your boosters and replace your M/C (much less expensive than replacing or rebuilding your boosters).

I would get the best tire brand available but there probably won't be that many choices. If your shocks are still good you might save money by keeping them. If not, changing them can lead to getting new springs too which maybe more expense than you need. r.d. enterprises have Spax shocks that use the stock springs. Most other (all?) shocks require different front springs. A call to r.d. might be appropriate.

If your motor and tranny mounts aren't bad (engine isn't rocking, etc.) I'd be inclined to keep them. On the other hand, 50 year old rubber parts deserve to be replaced. You won't get your money out of them at sale but it won't cost much and it might make the sale go a little easier because replacing wear items shows a bit of concern and responsibility as an owner.

While thinking about this, I waffled back and forth on some of those issues so I'm sure there will be some who disagree. Time, money, motivation, ability, and how quickly you want to sell are factors that could impact many of these options.

Good luck!

[jbcollier]

If you are going to sell, sell now.  Anymore you spend will not be received in a sale.

If you are going to enjoy it and are fixing it up for yourself, that's another matter entirely.

[Bryan Boyle]

i captured some of my thoughts back in '09 when I had reached the 99% point of restoring 693R:

http://www.lotuseuropa.us/0693r/journal/index.php?m=01&y=09&entry=entry090126-154142

It comes down to $ and time.  Back in the mid 'aughts, a gent spent an inordinate amount of $ on a gold-plated Europa resto.  IIRC it was in the high 5 digits.  Like real strong high 5 digits.  Pretty sure it ended up in the Philly region...and I know who bought it paid not even 40% of what that resto cost him.  He did it because he could. 

693R cost over the 2 years to complete it, over 30K.  2007 money.  Pretty sure if I really dug into 3291R, it would be closer to 50K now to do what I did to 693R.  I can tell you it didn't sell for anything close to what the renovation/restoration cost.  But it was something I always wanted to do.  So...the tuition was steep...but the enjoyment was worth it.  What it brought was a little fear of that first paint chip, the first scratch on the rechromed bumpers...

Only you can decide; there is something to be said for something in safe, presentable, and working original condition.  693R was a restoration, 3291R has won shows because it is original, leaky gaskets, checked paint, cracked dash, and all.  It is, in the end, your ride...but it only rolled out the Hethel door once...if it is safe to drive (new rubber!), stops properly, and starts (grrr right now on 3291R) and shifts ok...you've got a head start.

Just my $.02

[berni29]

Hi

I think if you are going to sell then make sure it goes and stops reasonably well, then leave it at that. Be very careful on old tyres, especially on test drives. Maybe changing the tyres for forum favourites would be a good idea,

All the best

Berni

[FourLoti]

Thanks to everyone for the great input - and the time spent on it! I needed an informed sounding board and got more than I could have hoped for. And it's definitely helped sort out what I plan to do, and that's to err on the side of originality. I'm not really trying to max out the sales price, just didn't want to end up trying to explain why some things are fixed and others are not. In all my other many projects, I didn't sell until everything was perfect, even if it meant replacement parts and some non-originality. So this is new territory for me.

That said, it came back to me that as I was going over my "max" bidding limit for this sight unseen, long-abandoned gamble of a car, I remember saying to myself, "No, I should pass and wait for the next totally unmolested, documented ownership, semi-rare color, TCS 5-Speed with nice interior, reasonable paint, and all within reasonable driving and towing distance." Wait, What?

As it stands right now, all of those positive attributes (except for maybe towing distance) still apply, with the great added benefit of having almost none of the risk factors I faced. I've been extremely lucky with this one. The compression is excellent, oil pressure is very good, starts instantly, runs very strongly, doesn't smoke, and has five reachable gears, plus reverse. I tracked down and am still in contact with the two main prior owners going back to early 1984, (both car guy/collectors), and have a name and prior address for the last owner before them. And if it turns out to be legible, I've attached a list of what I added to the story. In short, there is now not a gauge, lamp, switch, window, lock cylinder, blower, regulator, stabilizer, etc. that doesn't work properly, the brakes have been thoroughly gone through and work very well, even with the OE M/C and bypassed boosters. I've been on 30 mile test drives in 75 degree weather with some stop and go, and, even with the seeping radiator, it did not overheat, thanks to the Otter switch and fan working exactly as intended.

So, I'm not going to do much more (maybe the shaft seals since that's mostly labor) and not worry about alienating that segment of potential buyers who expect to buy a Europa that does not come with a to do list. (If such a thing exists

I'll keep you all up to date.

Thanks again!

Ron

EDIT: In the attachment column labeled "Retained". I meant not discarded, not necessarily still on the car. Although for fun I've left the original wires on the engine because I like the looks and they work just as well as the new NGK wires I bought and that will come with the car.

[Clifton]

Restored doesn't mean fully sorted but still better than a project. I've sold cars with issues that I didn't want to fix and was up front with the issues and the price reflected it. The mark down was worth not fixing for me. Iv'e sold good cars for top dollar with no issues too. I would rather eat a few bucks and let the buyer know.