Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: CCM911 on Wednesday,November 18, 2015, 08:09:54 AM
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OK, here is my first official questions. I have new rear wheel cylinders, caliper rebuild kits, and new brake lines all set to go. I popped the pistons from the calipers last night and saw a few corrosion spots, so I ordered the new pistons from R.D. Enterprises.
Now for the questions. I also oredered a master cylinder rebuild kit. I can see the MC in the wheel well, so removal seems to be straightforward. But what about the rod? Is it hooked to the brake pedal with a clevis? Do I need to go inside to the pedal and disconnect? Or can this all be done outside the car?
Bonus question - How will I know whether or not my boosters are OK? It will be a month or so until I can start the engine. Can I just bleed as usual? Will I see leaks?
Thanks so much.
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There is a circlip that retains the actuation rod so you'll have to achieve the Lotus position and disconnect it from the brake pedal.
If you experienced loss of brake fluid that you can't otherwise trace (probably went into your boosters) or loss of vacuum, your boosters need a rebuild. Of course, declining brake performance may be an indication that your boosters need attention.
The Girling booster rebuild kits are sometimes difficult to find. You can try the usual suspects (Dave Bean, r.d. enterprises, JAE, Banks Service Station - aka Europa Engineering). Dave Bean used to sell a Lockheed unit that may still be available. White Post (http://whitepost.com/) is a restoration outfit that claims to be able to rebuild any car hydraulic contrivance. I have used them and they seem good.
Good luck!
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Can I just get rid of the boosters altogether? If I use a softer pad will my braking be OK?
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I thought the brake MC was connected to the pedal by a clevis pin, washer and split pin and that the rod was secured inside the MC with a circlip or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
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I take it booster is a Servo, its common practice on Elans as you suggest with softer pads
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Yes, you can disconnect the boosters. Many people do that. Some in conjunction with a smaller diameter M/C. The usual thing was to replace your M/C with one from a Datsun F10. Those are very difficult to come by. This was an issue that we discussed recently (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1255.msg10918#msg10918). If that thread isn't helpful, I guess I would try disconnect then from the vacuum supply and the brake circuit and see how it works. Some people are happy with that.
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Oh, OK. I'll try it with the boosters removed. I did read that thread, and read a bunch of others and there seems to be no one right answer. So sorry to rehash.
R.D. Enterprises actually has new servos for $500 a set, but if I do not really need them, why pay for something that does not directly upgrade speed or performance or safety? LOL.
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Well, it's pretty much all personal preference - or in my case ignorance. I replaced my boosters when I built my car, mostly because I didn't know what it would feel like without them, but knew I liked it with them (it had been over 20 years since I had last driven the car!). Then, as it's been said, the car only weighs about 1600 pounds. How much boosting is really necessary?
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OK, here is my first official questions. I have new rear wheel cylinders, caliper rebuild kits, and new brake lines all set to go. I popped the pistons from the calipers last night and saw a few corrosion spots, so I ordered the new pistons from R.D. Enterprises.
Now for the questions. I also oredered a master cylinder rebuild kit. I can see the MC in the wheel well, so removal seems to be straightforward. But what about the rod? Is it hooked to the brake pedal with a clevis? Do I need to go inside to the pedal and disconnect? Or can this all be done outside the car?
Bonus question - How will I know whether or not my boosters are OK? It will be a month or so until I can start the engine. Can I just bleed as usual? Will I see leaks?
Thanks so much.
With regards to removing the master cylinder, I wouldn't even bother trying to disconnect the pushrod at the brake pedal. I would pull the MC as far as it would go after everything is disconnected and undo the circlip securing the pushrod at the MC bore.
I'm not sure if there is a way to check the condition of the boosters before starting the car up and pulling a vacuum on the units. If the car's been sitting for all these years, most likely the internals of the boosters are all rotted or corroded.
If you do keep the boosters in place, be aware that the lines to and from the boosters are high points. Trying to get air out of lines at the boosters may be difficult without loosening fittings.
I briefly owned and drove a TCS with boosters removed and the F10 master cylinder conversion. Compared to my two S2s, one with the stock MC and very hard after market brake pads and the other with the Courier MC and the OEM brake pads, the TCS had the best brake pedal "feel" of the three cars. I suspect that a lot of the differences had to do with choice of brake pads. A round about way of saying that you don't really need the boosters on the Europa.
I wonder if Eddy ever found the F10 master cylinder from the other thread.
Joji Tokumoto
Fallbrook, Ca
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I usually disconnect the actuating rod at the brake pedal and remove the whole assembly complete from the outside of the car on my UK version TC.
The pedal is lighter with a servo/booster as you'd expect but as I only use my car in summer I often found that after a winter of standing about the internal valves in the servo were prone to sticking and so after so long I'd say they almost certainly will need overhaul.
The only way to test them that I know of is to depress the brake pedal several times to release any vacuum then hold it down whilst starting the engine. If the servo works, the pedal sinks a touch as the servo acts.
I removed the servo on mine a few years ago, the pedal is heavier but not in the "ohmygodImnotgoingtostop!!!!" category. I first used EBC Greenstuff front pads which are good on the Elan (also without servo) but am currently trying a set of Mintex 1144 material which I think are slightly better on the initial bite.
Brian
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No luck with tracking down F10 master. The 6 or so places still showing them just never updated catalogue and they all say not available, out of production, etc when I contacted them. I had 3 companies complete an order then cancelled it.
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Bummer! I guess it's time to check out the Tilton M/C swap...
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It appears that the F10 master cylinder availability situation hasn't changed from a couple of years ago when I looked into it.
The simplest solution is to swap to the Spitfire MC. I believe all that is required is to swap out two brake lines from the three way junctions and run them to the other side of the MC or use jumpers. The Tilton master cylinders in the 0.70"-0.75" range are all single circuit designs and are another "bolt on" alternative.
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I gave up on trying to find F 10 master soI just bought a Spitfire Girling brand on eBay. The TRW is cheaper but Girlings around $150 with shipping
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My bigger concern is the bolts holding my MC just spin. Am I really going to be hunting for the nuts through the chassis. That was a real pain for steering rack. I had tabs welded to those bolts that could get stuck against inside of frame so I coul tighten rack when it came time to reassemble
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On my spare TCS chassis, the bolts securing the MC screw into nuts welded to the inside of the chassis. If your bolts are spinning, the nuts may have broken their weld or are stripped. You may have to work from inside the cabin to get the nuts off. Good luck.
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It does sound bad news. If both are spinning then it's cutting disc time.....
Brian
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I guess I was premature in asking about the MC. Today, I finished rebuilding the calipers and re-installed, along with new soft hoses. And yes, I went cheap and bought the rubber ones. The goal here is to first get the car running, and then decide how far to go.
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Clean all the rust off the rotors. Sandpaper 80 to 120 grit will do the trick.
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I'd be tempted to just throw them away myself, they're only Triumph Spitfire discs which are cheap and readily available. I changed mine this summer for just looking rusty at the edges, I think it was around £20 the pair - what's that, $30 ?
I wouldn't worry about the "cheap rubber hoses", they're what came with the cars from new and will see you through many years without any problems. If I'm honest, I only fit stainless braided ones because they look pretty and don't rust at the ends :)
Brian
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Are you kidding about the rust on the rotors? 1/2 mile into my first "test beating" and they will shine like new, LOL.
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No. That level of rust may not clear. It can glaze instead leaving you with decidedly sub-par braking.
Gave a customer a similar warning after doing a bunch of performance work. He didn't want to do the brake work and left with rusty rotors and old pads. Came back 15 minutes later with the front end all pushed in and got the work done.
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So I guess I'll be ordering new rotors?
Man, this is getting more complex with every part I dig into.
So should I pay the $500(USD) for the new set of Boosters? Or should I eliminate?
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So I guess I'll be ordering new rotors?
Man, this is getting more complex with every part I dig into.
So should I pay the $500(USD) for the new set of Boosters? Or should I eliminate?
Before ordering new rotors, I would see just how bad the surface rust is. Ten minutes of work should tell the story.
The only new boosters available are the Lockheed's, if I remember correctly.. I believe they are not a direct fit in replacement for the OEM Girlings. A little bit of fiddling is required to plumb them in to get them to work. Again, I would bypass the boosters and see how you like the feel of the brakes before buying new boosters. You may have to play around with pad material to get acceptable braking feel.
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I have Lockheed boosters on my car and I can confirm that they will require some plumbing changes just because the ports are in different places. Otherwise, they are equivalent as far as I know.
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I have Lockheed boosters on my car and I can confirm that they will require some plumbing changes just because the ports are in different places. Otherwise, they are equivalent as far as I know.
I had Lockheed on both the Elan & Europa as the Girling ones have been unavailable for years here and agree with BDA that they do the job fine. Mount them at a tilt to make bleeding easier but otherwise it was a simple swap in my case.
Brian
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OK, this must be a bad joke! How in gods name am I supposed to access the top nut on my Master Cylinder? Every thing else came off fine, but I was only able to get one turn on the top nut, now I just can't seem to get the wrench back on it. Is there a secret to accessing this nut?
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Hmmm... I don't remember having any more than the usual amount of trouble getting the M/C off - which is to say a fair amount, and the T section of my frame is more open than the stock frame. You do have the spacer that moves the M/C away from the frame 'T' and the steering rack, right? I think I remember that the stock M/C had a captive nut on the top, but I could be wrong and that probably wouldn't help you anyway. I assume you've tried the different orientations of an open end wrench. Maybe a plier, equivalent metric wrench with different angle, or other gripper would give you just enough movement to help you out... What is getting in the way?
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You can see the top nut in this photo. I just can't get a wrench in there. Is there a secret method?
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I found the "Secret Method". I used a screwdriver and a hammer to tap the nut undone. Worked like a champ!!!
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Glad you got it. Now that I see the situation in your picture, I think in my case, I used a very thin walled box-end wrench that fits there.
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Swan-neck ring spanner ? If that's only a UK description I mean one like this....
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Nowe I get why they have the offset! Thanks!
Trust me, I learned to speak "English", as opposed to "American" due to the sheer volume of UK Automotive/Motorcycle publications I read. Unfortunately, America has no good car or motorcycle magazines, other than "Motorcycle CLassics".
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OK, master cylinder has been rebuilt/re-installed, and now it is time to move to the rear of the car. New rear wheel cylinders have been installed. Time to replace the soft lines in the rear.
Do I have to drop the rear trailing arms to gain access? It seems like they are jammed in such a small space that getting a wrench in there would be impossible.
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If you mean the short flexible hoses conveniently situated between the chassis & body such that you can see them but need skinny, teenage arms to touch them, then yep, that's the way I would tackle the job.
It is possible to do the job with the arm in place but if they've been in place for a few years then I think I'd just drop the arm and cut the hoses to let the arm drop away completely. That will give you lots of clearance to get at either end and if they've rusted in place it will give you better leverage. You'll also get a better view of the hard brake lines and see if they are rusting or also need replacement.
As I said it's also possible to do without removing the arm. I've done that way but everything was relatively new because I was only swapping the (recent) rubber hoses for stainless braided ones so the nuts undid easily with stubby spanners.
Brian
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I know my stuff is not rusty, but my fat stubby Slovak hands will not fit in that small area in a million years! LOL.
I will report back on how I did it when completed. In the meantime, I may need several beers to help me contemplate the correct course of action.
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I replaced my original rear flex hoses without removing the trailing arms. It requires a crowsfoot flare nut wrench and some extensions on the socket. I don't remember it being too much of a pain in the arse but it's been a few years since I did it and I've relatively slim arms.
Before I did it I combed through the Yahoo group archives. Here are the notes/posts I copied. These are all quotes from other owners, some of whom took the arms off, some who didn't-
http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-sae-crowfoot-flarenut-wrench-set-93137.html
http://ratropa.com/photos.html {scroll down on page} ALSO with some judiciously-applied penetrant to rusty/stubborn fittings, and a crows-foot flare wrench/socket on a long extension, one can finesse the female tubing fittings and the lock nuts loose. Installation of the new parts is a much easier task... ALSO Before you buy new tools, see if you can loosen the connections (without damaging the hard lines) with the tools you already have. If you can't, then you'll know what tools will get the job done. I was able to loosen and tighten the connections from the comfort of the wheel well. And didn't need to dismantle any of the suspension.
After a couple weeks delay, I finally got the rear SS lines on today. Miraculously, I didn't even unbolt the swing arm or shock. I jacked the rear end up so the tires were about 6 inches off the ground and then took them off so I could get access up the swing arm. The upper hose mount was fairly easy to get at from underneath. For the lower mount, I positioned the wrenches on the connections while looking through the fender down the swing arm. I then handed them off to my dad who was laying down underneath (and couldn't see the connections). Getting the SS lines on was actually easier than taking them off (BTDT factor). I was able to get the second side done nearly all by myself. It took about 3 hours from start to finish and that included dinner in the middle. The brakes definitely feel more firm.
Yes you can change them without removing the swing arms. But you need 1/4 inch drive crowsfoot sockets of the right size to get on to the nuts holding the hoses onto the brackets. And extension arms. Aggravating, frustrating, slow, but possible.
You should be able to drop the front of the radius arm down after you pull the long bolt out - you do not have to pull the bolt out of the radius arm, just enough to have the end of the bolt clear the hole in the rubber bushing - the rubber bushing is bolted to the frame.
There are washers between the inside face of the radius arm and the rubber bushing - keep track of how many there are - the thicknes of these washers sets the rear toe-in.
You should be able to access the hydraulic line mounting point when you lower the radius arm.
I replaced both sides with stainless steel and it was a bit of a pain but not too bad on a 72 TC. I had to pound out the roll pins and disconnect the axle shaft from the drive spline. From there I was able to rotate the rear link down and get a wrench on the brake lines. It went relatively fast, maybe two hours. Make sure you use two wrenches, one to hold and one to turn. ALSO Allowing the radius arm and hub assembly to drop down a bit makes all the difference.
On my S2 I have removed the entire rear trailing arm(and parts therein) a couple of times. I jacked the rear up and accessed the trailing arm from below, doing the rear trailing arm mount bolt first, then the brake lines with the trailing arm dangling. With the rear jacked up, the brake line did not leak a whole lot of fluid either.
The car is on jack stands, but I managed to get to the flexible hose with the rear part of the trailing arm unbolted and lowered to the floor. I can see now, that I will probably have to raise the car further up to be able to assemble properly again, but at least that will not be a problem before the next weekend...
To remove existing lines you should use a flare-nut wrench. I think you will need a 3/8 and 7/16.
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Well, I went and bought the Crows foot "sockets", so I guess I'll try again this weekend.
Thanks for all the info, Mark!
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The crows foot socket, coupled with a two foot extension made for easy removal of the brake lines. I use the crows foot to get the flare nut loose. Then I stick my hand in the well and completely remove the flare nut. Then, I use a deep well 9/16th regular socket to remove the nut securing the brake line to the mounting tab. Much easier than dropping the arms.
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Excellent! Glad you got it worked out! :beerchug:
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OK, time to put in the new rear lines. I lost one of the original nuts used to secure the soft-line to the arm. I went and bout some replacements, thinking it would be nice to replace thenm all. But when I get them home, I realized that the new nuts were a bit thicker then the originals. Is this OK? Or will the thicker nuts interfere with the seating of the flare nut on the hard-to-soft line hook-up?
Sorry for all the questions. I am just loking along here with this re-commission.
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I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. Are you talking about the union that screws between the hard line and the flexible line? The important thing there is that the threads match (obviously), and the profile of the 'nose' of the union be the same as the original one. I think the usual arrangement is for a bubble flare in the hard line so the union would be dished a bit to mate up with it. I would say that the length is important, but I think they are only likely to be longer than you need rather than too short. I don't think that a little extra length there will be a problem.
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The nuts need to be thin so they allow the hydraulic fittings to fully seat. "Half-nuts" or "jam-nuts" are readily available from nut and bolt, and industrial suppliers.
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Exactly! So it is a "jam nut" I am looking for?
Thanks!!!
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Can one of you point me in the right direction as to where I can pick up some Jam Nuts for the rear brake soft lines on my car? I need a US suppilier.
Yes, my project has stalled, so I really need to get back into it, and finishing the brakes would be a great milestone.
Thanks.
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http://www.mcmaster.com/#hex-nuts/=12c4bho
However, you may not need 50. Where are you located? Then I can search for a nearby supplier.
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Also the usual suspects:
http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29034#3
http://www.victoriabritish.com/scripts/mgrqispi.dll?APPNAME=WebLmc&PRGNAME=Welcome&ARGUMENTS=-AVB,-AMG,-A12-1949,-A/icatalog/MG/full.aspx?page=48
Basically any British automotive parts supplier.
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Thanks, JB!!!
Moss or Victoria will work!
I really appreciate the input. Not to get off my lazy butt and get this car done already!
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Try Mcmaster Carr
http://www.mcmaster.com/#hex-nuts/=12c5r87