Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: 4129R on Thursday,March 12, 2015, 11:56:40 AM
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Has anyone had any experience of fitting the Banks kits for ventilated front, and disc rear?
If so, what about the master cylinder? Is it suitable, or does it need changing for a smaller or larger diameter one?
I am toying with the idea of fitting a 170BHP lump, and the thought of stopping it sprang to mind.
Then I need to address the gearbox, will the Renault 5 speed take 170 BHP?
Having got the going and stopping right, the thought of quick gear changes is not a good one.
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I have both the Banks vented front discs and rear disc kits. Just like everything Richard does, they are of great quality. Both use floating calipers. I'm a little foggy on how the rears came together, but IIRC, I had some issues with my setup and Richard swapped my uprights with others that had the caliper mount bolted on.
They stop really well and I use the standard TC m/c. I asked Richard about brake bias issues and he said there wouldn't be any and there aren't.
I had a 365 originally in my car. I asked Richard about that since I have a ~180BHP BDA engine and he said that the NG3 was not really stronger. I got an NG3 from him for better access to spare parts. More recently, I have heard that the NG3 is stronger. I don't know the truth, but I would trust Richard. You should confirm my memory with Richard. I would believe him over anybody other than a Renault transmission engineer that worked in the early '80s!
Richard has a very nice kit for the NG3 also. You will need to change the rear frame "hoop" that picks up the rear of the tranny and if you use his linkage, there is some fabrication involved there, too. Others on the lotuseuropa yahoo group have implemented cable shifters. I believe those are for un-modified NG3s (Richard makes some changes to way the gear selection shaft works).
You didn't ask, but you might also be interested (I don't know your budget, of course) in Richard's twin link rear suspension. It is a great addition to the car.
Let me know if I can answer any more questions. Let us know what you do! Good luck!
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Thanks for all that info.
Did you have any problem with fitting the engine, and hitting the bulkhead where all the belt driven parts are turning? I am thinking of fitting a 1600cc Wilcox BDG.
I am thinking of using the car for sprints and hill climbs, so 170 BHP in a light car with a low C of G, and brakes that work, seemed to me a better option than forking out for a motorbike engined Jedi. http://www.formulajedi.com/cars
The Jedi has around 185 BHP and weighs around 325 kg without me, but I think that may be frighteningly quick for me. I am used to 459 BHP in 1000kg, and that is OK in a car geared for 176 MPH. The Jedi does 150+. The Europa with 170 BHP should do 155 if the engine revs to 7500. I recall getting 124mph out of a Weber carbed JPS, and that must have been at around 6000 rpm.
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You will need/want to put a door in your firewall so you can get to the water pump and cam belt. I put some mylar covered sound/heat insulation on the firewall. I built the door out of a thick plate (~.100") and was able to put some of that insulation on it but toward the top where the cam sprockets are, there is very little insulation because of the lack of space. There is no problem clearance from the boot.
One of the nice things about using a BD* engine is that it is pretty much a bolt in. The engine mounts, bell housing, etc. is the same as the TC. I have a dry sump but I didn't do anything to lower the engine any further. If you're really motivated, you might be able to lower the engine/tranny a couple of inches.
I like the BD* engines for the Europa since the BDA was basically the next iteration of the TC. You should be able to get plenty of power up to 7500 and higher, but I would have to say those engines are very expensive. Some have used the Toyota 4AGE (which is really a Japanese BDA) and many have used the Ford Zetec which is a much cheaper alternative. There should be some good go-fast parts for both of those for reasonable cost. Of course, either of those options will require more fabrication to your frame, bell housing, etc. Unfortunately, I really can't give you advice on the relative costs of the complete swap. I think a lot depends on how far you want to take your car down and how handy you are - or how handy your friends are - to do the fabrication! :-)
Richard would be a good source of engine swap information, too. He's certainly done a lot of them!
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I had a 4AGE in an AE86 Corolla GT I used for International Rallying 124 bhp out of a standard 1600cc. It was very reliable, but they are hard to tune unless you have access to all the computer stuff. I want something on carbs. I am fed up with expensive computer diagnostics.
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I thought I had replied to this already! You can put Webers on a Toyota 4AGE. Here's a kit on fleabay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-4AG-4AGE-MR2-GTS-Genuine-Weber-Redline-Dual-40DCOE-Carburetor-kit/321676868764?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D28772%26meid%3Dfcd00b08eaf84a74aaf116d34aaebe69%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D321649246680
If you're looking for 180BHP, you might need to go to 45mm throats though - at least that's what I've got.
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For anyone who has or who is thinking of fitting the front vented discs from Banks, I put the stuff together last night in the kitchen to see how it went together, and I have found a problem where the brake pads don't seat in the calipers correctly because of some casting lumps in the calipers.
There are lumps on both sides of the caliper so it affects the seating of both pads.
Surprisingly on one of the calipers the pad clears the outer lump, but he other caliper needs careful filing to the outer.
The inner sides, where the piston is, need quite a lot of filing with probably 1/4" of metal to come off.
Now I just need to find out what thread is on the wheel studs, and get the correct wheel nuts.
I ordered the discs for 108mm PCD (4 1/4") so there is a much larger selection (Minilite) of wheels to fit. Triumph at 3 3/4" PCD is a very limited selection.
I have to send the rear hubs to Richard to re-drill for the extra 1/2" PCD. I just hope he fits the same wheel studs as he put on the front !
Meanwhile, does anyone know the origin of these discs (rotors) so I can easily get replacement pads?
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Before I started filing on my calipers, I would call Richard first. Obviously, the pads should fit. I had no problems with mine.
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I have files the lumps out on the way, and the pads now seat in the calipers properly on full open travel. As the casting is aluminium alloy I think, it didn't take long with an ordinary hand file.
He has supplied the new ventilated discs with M12 x 1.5mm studs, so now I am going to have to drill and tap new threads in all my Minilite wheel nuts.
The discs have metric nuts and bolts, the packing around the whole delivery had Volvo written on the cardboard, so quite where the discs and calipers came from is yet to be established.
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I would be careful trying to drill and tap wheel nuts. Tapped thread isn't that strong. I bought a set of M12x1.5 wheel nuts for about 16 pounds. Not worth the risk in my opinion.
Serge
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I used to own a few AE86 Toyota Corolla GTs so I know that 1.5 is a Toyota nut, medium pitch, with fine being 1.25 and coarse being 1.75.
So I put my thinking hat on, and thought whether the sleeved wheel nuts from a Toyota would fit the Minilite wheels to my new Banks vented front discs with 12mm x 1.5 studs.
As it happens, I own an old Toyota Landcruiser which I have had for 16 years, it has done 210,000 miles, it is worth FA, but pulls the side off house and is worth its weight in gold for the towing and the moving it has done for me, especially with a full length alloy roof rack on which double beds have been strapped.
Well, I just took one of the wheel nuts off the Land Cruiser, and it is a perfect fit on the stud, and in the Minilite. 20 ordered on eBay for next to nothing. Problem solved. Thanks for the idea Serge.
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Problems so far fitting the rear discs:-
1) To undo the rear large hub nut, I had to get the wife to sit in the car with her foot on the brake, while I used a 3/4 drive socket attached to a 3ft breaker bar with a 5ft scaffold pole attached, to undo that f'ing nut. Otherwise the tyre just slid on the concrete when I turned the nut.
2) Broke a hub puller trying to get the hub off to send to Richard to get re-drilled for 108PCD, so it is off to buy a better hub puller tomorrow.
3) With all the rust removed from the shaft and the hub, the other side slides on easily, so it must be rust causing the hub not to come off.
4) The brackets for the caliper mounting have the holes drilled incorrectly, so back to Richard.
5) The bracket fouls the rear upright, so ask Richard.
6) There is a raised flange on the hub which fouls the disc so it won't seat flush. Raised flange needs machining off.
7) Attaching the new very long flexible brake pipe to the existing brake pipe system looks near impossible without removing the whole rear trailing arm.
Only 1 finger leaking blood today so far.
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Try heating the hub and stub axle. If the hub has been installed with loctite, it make take some heat to soften the loctite.
Serge
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Try heating the hub and stub axle. If the hub has been installed with loctite, it make take some heat to soften the loctite.
Serge
As Serge says, if the job has been done properly in the past then there's no way you'll pull the hub off without breaking down the loctite with a blowtorch. What I do is put the puller in place and then use a propane torch on the hub and slowly turn the spanner on the puller. It will gradually slip off, just keep on with the heat until it moves. Don't be surprised if it takes 4 or 5 minutes of heating to get anywhere with it.
Brian
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Went into my local tool shop in Norwich to get a heavy duty puller to get the hub off. What an Aladdin's cave that place is.
Told them about the 5ft scaffold pole to undo the hub nut. They told me they sold a 3ft breaker bar to a mechanic and he came back the next day with it bent like a banana. They asked him how long the scaffold pole was he used. He confessed. He showed them the video. 3 men hanging off a 12ft scaffold pole on a 32mm nut. Eventually it came undone. When they went to buy a new nut, the man in the shop said as it is done up to 450Nm, you need to break the nut, not undo it. Read the manual next time !
I told them I was working on the rear hub of a Europa, one of them asked me if it was a real Europa. I told him it was a 1974. He told me it was his favourite car, and he hasn't seen one for as long as he can remember, and this is about 20 miles from the Lotus Factory. It seems where he lives, all the others in the street work for Lotus. I told him I will take the car to the shop as soon as the brakes are fitted.
Well, they sold me two hub pullers. One was cast aluminium. I couldn't do the nuts up on the wheel studs to hold it in place as 3 3/4" was too narrow, so after much trying, that puller was abandoned for a bigger three leg gear puller. I soaked the hub in Coca Cola, (they told me this is the best thing for getting rid of rust). After half an hour, I heated up the hug with a butane blow torch, and very very slowly the hub came off. I left the nut on the end of the drive shaft to locate the centre of the puller so it didn't slide to one side.
So tips for the day, Coca Cola is good at dissolving rust, and heat is definitely needed on a hard to undo rear hub.
Thanks for the advice.
Alex in Norfolk UK, (with 2 leaking fingers).
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It seems Richard forgot to ask me if the car was an S1/S2 or a T/C-TCS.
The brackets he sent me were for S1/S2, so if you are fitting rear discs, be sure to tell him which type of Europa you have.
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I have a F&R set but only the rears fitted at present, I already have upgraded fronts so not a priority yet.
The rears have provided a really useful improvement (and confidence) in braking performance.
I have dual MC and a balance bar so can wind in as much F/R as I like for the conditions.
Only trouble I have with the rears is that the additional rotational weight has contributed to some vibration.
This isn't the kit's problem, it is from runout on one of the hubs (that I need to replace).
I do suggest anyone ordering is very specific to Richard in regard to stud sizes, PCD required, which uprights are fitted (front, std or GT6) etc.
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I had to pack out the two rear hydraulic banjos with copper washers to stop them leaking brake fluid. The thread on the bolt holding the banjo in place is too long so the washers do not get tight.
I also had to pack out the caliper frame mountings (two large bolts) with steel washers (supplied with the kit), to stop them fouling the disc. You have to put the disc on, take the caliper off its two 13mm bolts, offer up the frame to its position and judge how many washers you need to get the frame to be positioned central to the disc when bolted up tight.
To adjust the hand brake cable easier than venturing into the tunnel, pack the outer cable from its housing in the caliper with U spacers to take up the slack, but remember you need both cables attached to the caliper levers, before adjusting to cable slack/tension. Use a screwdriver to move the level against the large spring to get the round pin into position.
It seems my rear hubs are very unusual being held on to the drive shaft with three keys, not splines. Richard said the hubs were a bitch to drill (very hard) for 108mm PCD. Remember to ask him to supply the 12mm x 1.5 wheel studs. I have ordered Ford 63mm studs. I hope they are the right length for the Minlite wheels with sleeved nuts.
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I have the 63mm ford studs on my hubs as well and they are definitively long enough.
Having the upgraded hubs and stub axles is only a bonus, you will not have to deal with the flying wheel issues!
Serge
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More problems encountered:-
1) The 6" Minilite wheels on the front hit the suspension top wishbone. Cure: fit 9mm spacers.
2) The 63mm wheel studs on the rear discs were too long and the wheelnuts didn't tighten. Cure: fit 9mm spacers to the rear.
3) One on the wheel studs kept turning in the hub so I couldn't undo the wheel nut. Cure: dismantle the rear suspension and take the trailing arm, driveshaft, hub assembly with wheel still attached to the local garage to splash a couple of welds on the inside of the turning stud.
4) The wheel studs didn't seat properly in the new 3 spline $1,600 rear hubs. Take both hubs to the local garage and they pressed them as far into the hubs that a 6 tons of press hydraulic could achieve.
5) The hand brake on the discs doesn't work. The local garage says bleed the brakes before assembling the hand brake cables on to the caliper assembly. I took the cables off, bled the brakes. More air came out. Work still in progress to see if the hand brake works, as I had tightened the cables so much that the brakes got very hot on a test drive around the block.
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If it's any consolation (probably not ! ) I also had clearance problems with 5x13" Cosmics when I fitted rear discs. I didn't investigate spacers as I had a 2nd plan for 15" wheels, but I think I'd have needed something similar to yours.
Bleeding air out was also a problem for some reason. In the end I modified the lines with a short braided line before the caliper and now I undo the bolts, stick something between the pads and manipulate it during bleeding to dislodge any bubbles. That works pretty well although it makes it a much longer job, but on the plus side it's not very often it's needed.
Brian
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Work in progress continued.......
Having disconnected the hand brake cables, I bled all the air out of both rear calipers, and now the f'ing cables are too tight, the handbrake is stuck half on, so the cable needs adjusting within the black hole.
See new thread on adjusting the hand brake cable.
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Road tested the new brakes, and with Yokohama sticky A048 tyres, the car stops amazingly well now.
I wonder if the handbrake will pass the annual MOT test next Saturday..............
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Handbrake on new rear discs passed MOT test with flying colours.
BUT
The right rear brake was sticking badly as I had forgotten to wind the piston back in to the caliper so the inside pad was pressing badly on the disc.
Must remember to wind it in next time. At least I have the correct specialist tool for winding the piston back into the caliper. It has had a lot of use recently.
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Congratulations!
From reading this thread you endured quite a few issues!
Job well done!
I'm looking forward to upgrading ours during the restoration...
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If I did it again, it would be so much quicker. Just the usual learning curve.
I have just bought my 5th, so numbers 2-5 should get progressively easier to restore. Only 1 (4129R) gets the full monty of upgraded brakes, and 145bhp.
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Fifth!!! Wow, you really are certifiable! :)
What are your plans for them? Will they all be stock (except for 4129R of course) or are you going to experiment?
I'd love to see some pictures.
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Well.........I have 2420R a Regency red TC, 3089R, a mid brown TCS, 3755R, a black TCS, 4129R, another black TCS, and 4174R another Regency red TCS is hopefully on the way from Florida soon.
Plans, keep the best one, and restore the others to a good original, not concours, standard, as investments. They should not go down in price.
I have 4 sets of Minilites (5.5" and 6" x 13") for 4129R with dry almost slick, dry light tread, intermediate and wet, road legal tyres (Yokohama and Avon), so with ventilated discs, and 145 bhp from 40 DCOEs and QED cams (they are building a new Weber head, awaiting the Europa longer inlet cam to arrive), it should give me some fun in my old age.
For some reason I cannot post photos as every time I try it tells me my file size is too big (and they say size doesn't matter).
3755R is in bits at the moment awaiting seats recovering and door cards trim. The stock engine from 4129R will go into 3755R, when my 145 lump is ready. When I drained the oil from the engine of 3755R, about 4 pints of water came out, then 4 pints of new clean oil. So when the engine was stripped by a local engineering shop who know Lotus Ford Twin Cams ( in Norfolk the older generation cut their teeth on all things Lotus), they found everything was rusted so I thought if I was having a re-bore, new valves, new cams etc, I would go for the full Monty and keep the new engine for my keeper 4129R.
When I drive 4129R around Norfolk, like I did today, the older generation appreciate it is local stock. I will take it to my local tool shop tomorrow as the man who owns it says it is his favourite car and he hasn't seen one in over 30 years.
As the cars are being renovated under my quadruple car port in my back garden, at least her indoors knows where I am and that I could be up to worst things.
I keep GT40P 2194 in my garage safely locked up. (Roush 5.6L V8, 459bhp)
I still have to break the news to her about #5. When I disappear to Felixstowe (about 80 miles away) in about 10 weeks time with a trailer, she will probably work it out as last time, I picked up both 2420R and 3755R from the docks there the same day.
Confession over. Do I need help?
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Yes, you certainly need help ...
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... And more cars. :pirate:
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Well.........I have 2420R a Regency red TC, 3089R, a mid brown TCS, 3755R, a black TCS, 4129R, another black TCS, and 4174R another Regency red TCS is hopefully on the way from Florida soon.
Plans, keep the best one, and restore the others to a good original, not concours, standard, as investments. They should not go down in price.
I have 4 sets of Minilites (5.5" and 6" x 13") for 4129R with dry almost slick, dry light tread, intermediate and wet, road legal tyres (Yokohama and Avon), so with ventilated discs, and 145 bhp from 40 DCOEs and QED cams (they are building a new Weber head, awaiting the Europa longer inlet cam to arrive), it should give me some fun in my old age.
For some reason I cannot post photos as every time I try it tells me my file size is too big (and they say size doesn't matter).
3755R is in bits at the moment awaiting seats recovering and door cards trim. The stock engine from 4129R will go into 3755R, when my 145 lump is ready. When I drained the oil from the engine of 3755R, about 4 pints of water came out, then 4 pints of new clean oil. So when the engine was stripped by a local engineering shop who know Lotus Ford Twin Cams ( in Norfolk the older generation cut their teeth on all things Lotus), they found everything was rusted so I thought if I was having a re-bore, new valves, new cams etc, I would go for the full Monty and keep the new engine for my keeper 4129R.
When I drive 4129R around Norfolk, like I did today, the older generation appreciate it is local stock. I will take it to my local tool shop tomorrow as the man who owns it says it is his favourite car and he hasn't seen one in over 30 years.
As the cars are being renovated under my quadruple car port in my back garden, at least her indoors knows where I am and that I could be up to worst things.
I keep GT40P 2194 in my garage safely locked up. (Roush 5.6L V8, 459bhp)
I still have to break the news to her about #5. When I disappear to Felixstowe (about 80 miles away) in about 10 weeks time with a trailer, she will probably work it out as last time, I picked up both 2420R and 3755R from the docks there the same day.
Confession over. Do I need help?
Are those your only project cars, or do you have other makes too?
5 project cars seems quite restrained really...
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I do have 4 other cars (Land Cruiser, BMW, Golf R32 and a token Nova) but the Lotus x 5 are my only projects, with GT40P2194 being the prize possession with under 2,000 miles on the clock . The others are for use only.
My last project was the restoration of the 1780 flint barn which I live in which took 12 years to build (I did all the work, all trades). That seemed like a good idea at the time, and was.
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You certainly have your work cut out for you! Very interesting collection!
If you have Windows 7, you can display the picture in the viewer and then use the snipping tool (allows you to capture a portion of the screen to a file) to make a copy of the picture to a new file. This will result in a picture with lower pixel density and thus be a smaller file.
If you are running some other operating system, I don't know what tool you would use, but I'm sure there is a similar tool available for it. You may have to download one. Also, when you buy a camera, it comes with basic editing software that should allow you to reduce the resolution.
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I tried the Microsoft Snipping tool for lower resolution, and that said the file size was too big, even on less than a quarter of the photo.
Maybe a black and white Kodak Box Brownie would get me low enough resolution. All very frustrating when I have so much visual to share. I can post much higher resolution images on another forum using the same software as this forum, so it must be in the set-up so I wonder if the Mods can get a larger file size capability, or whether it is something peculiar to this side of the pond.
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I'm not familiar with the Snipping tool thing, but I generally set the image size to 800x600 pixels. That gives small image sizes at typical screen/monitor resolutions and fit easily on most desktop monitor displays without needing to scroll.
If you store the images on something like photobucket, then it's possible to post the link to your album image for sharing to the forum, which gets around the file size limitation.
What OS are you running, XP, W7, etc and we'll see if we can help further.
Brian
ps - apart from the obvious storage issues with large photos, they also take longer to download, especially if there are several in a long topic. I'd presume the limit is partially there to improve server response and folks don't have to wait whilst a page downloads?
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I tried the Microsoft Snipping tool for lower resolution, and that said the file size was too big, even on less than a quarter of the photo.
Maybe a black and white Kodak Box Brownie would get me low enough resolution. All very frustrating when I have so much visual to share. I can post much higher resolution images on another forum using the same software as this forum, so it must be in the set-up so I wonder if the Mods can get a larger file size capability, or whether it is something peculiar to this side of the pond.
I use tinypic.com
1. Go to site..
2. Under "Resize" Select "Message board".
3. Click on "Browse".
4. Select pic from files.
5. Click on "Open".
6. This will select pic to upload, then click on "Upload now".
7. After uploading, copy "Image code for message boards & forums". (ctrl+c)
8. Insert pic into your post. (ctrl+v)
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For some reason I cannot post photos as every time I try it tells me my file size is too big (and they say size doesn't matter).
Open your picture up in "Paint" and click on re-size. Pick a percentage and save. Easy and fast.
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Lets try this.................
Wow, it worked. Thank you.
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Impressive!! My two favorite cars. (and now I have a new background pic!)
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Well, as you asked............
As the name implies, Lolita the Lotus is smaller than Lola the GT40 (based on a Lola GT).
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Great pics! Lola looks great in Gulf livery! Lolita is not so shabby either!
Just a suggestion: please try making the pictures bigger!
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:coolpic:
BTW, after resizing the photos, use 'Save as' instead of 'Save' to keep the original photo unchanged.
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Great pics! Lola looks great in Gulf livery! Lolita is not so shabby either!
Just a suggestion: please try making the pictures bigger!
See if these are too big:-
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Not too big for me. Thanks! Noe they look even better! ;D