Author Topic: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.  (Read 3154 times)

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Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #15 on: Thursday,December 08, 2022, 06:01:55 PM »
I expect to have to replace all of my intake valves at the least.
The faces are worn concave pretty badly.
If reground sufficiently I expect they would be sunk into the head.
The matching convex seats will contribute to the problem so I may also have to replace my seats.  :(

My hope is that lower beehive spring mass and seat pressure will make a noticeable difference in longevity of the entire valve train.

From Hughes Engines, "When using Beehive springs in place of conventional springs the open pressures can be reduced by at least 10%. This is because the retainer and valve spring (specially the upper coils) are so light, due to their small size, less open pressure is required to control the retainer, springs and valves. The weight loss can be in the neighborhood of 75-100 grams removed from the valve sideof the rocker, which is the most important side. This weight loss is better (and a lot less expensive) than switching to titanium  valves. More RPM, faster---beehive springs! 

More good news. Spring surge is a big problem in straight-type(non-beehive) springs. The surge is harmonic resonance or vibration in the spring, created when it is rapidly compressed and released, as in a running engine. SpinTron testing has shown that straight springs move around a lot (an unbelievable amount) in a running engine, due to these harmonics. You can actually see the retainer wiggling around in the breeze, like it was waving goodbye. Sometimes, lock(keepers) float around loose in the retainers. In the surging springs, you can see the coils spread apart and compress together of being compressed or released, indicating the varying spring pressures at max lift or on the seat. Scary stuff. What this tells you is that accurate valve control is a nightmare and an accident waiting to happen. Think about this as you watch the "Cup" cars running at 8800+ RPM for 3 or more hours. Don't you think that their engine builder doesn't have ulcers?

A SpinTron is a machine that looks somewhat like a dyno, but it drives the engine. It is used to test (among other things) valvetrain dynamics and harmonics. With high speed photogragraphy and video, the gyrations of the valvetrain can be recorded for viewing later in terror-filled hours. It is hard to believe!

Well, there is relief available for flat tappet cam and hydraulic roller cam users--beehive springs! The beehive springs have very little, if any, harmonic resonance, due to their varying diameter from top to bottom. The beehive springs have many features that make them a better spring choice. The tapered design does not have the harmonic resonance capability of the straight design, virtually eliminating that problem. The small diameter at the top of the spring allows a very small, lightweight retainer(9 grams vs 36 grams) to be used (see photo). Not only is the retainer lighter, but the single beehive spring will replace a much larger and heavier dual spring assembly.

Depending on application, anywhere from 75-100 grams can be reduced from the valve side of the rocker arm. The weight reduction on the valve side of the rocker arm translates directly into high-RPM valve control with lower spring tension. A win-win deal.

Not only that, but with flat-tappet cams we are looking at reduced cam-and-lifter wear or failure (or maybe more lift, but that's another subject). The lighter open pressure also allows hydraulic cams (especially hydraulic roller type) to rev higher and extend their power band. The wire that is used in beehive springs is not round, like normal spring wire. It is an ovate shape, which distributes the stress over the spring's surface better. The material used in the wire is of a higher, purer quality steel than is found in most straight springs, so you can expect them to cost a little more. Hey, you expected all of these good thing for less? Only the government can "claim" that".

Of course the above is in regard to V8's so the weight/mass reduction will be less but the general principles remain the same.
Looking for the link I had to a company with a good assortment of beehive springs to work from.

Offline gideon

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #16 on: Friday,December 09, 2022, 02:37:25 PM »
FYI - Willa previously said he was using beehive springs in his Renault wedge head. 

http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1053.msg31419#msg31419


Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #17 on: Friday,December 09, 2022, 04:54:41 PM »
Too bad he does not state a source for them.
And are they same as used for TS crossflow heads?

Too bad the thread ended abruptly, his oiling mods are interesting.
Rather than roller rockers my plan is to treat the rocker tips with a friction reducing coating.

Offline Willa

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #18 on: Monday,December 19, 2022, 02:49:59 AM »
Hi Richard,
Just reading through this thread and build and can confirm that I have beehive springs that were sourced from a Nissan SR20 supplied by Kelford cams in NZ, ask for Kiel. My engine runs to 8k although power goes to 7500. This was with a very aggressive cam so I had designed and built two roller rocker sets at 1.7 not 1.5 and we have 140hp at the wheels, about 170-180 at the fly taking drivetrain losses into account, this set up is kinder to the cam and valve train and we can make a cam with a profile that keeps the valve open longer at full lift. I will have the engine on an engine dyno early in the new year as I have had another head being built where we have welded up the chambers then shaped them to get better flow and combustion characteristics. This is likely as far as I can go as this is on a wedge head / 821 engine with lots of supporting mods......unless I get the itch again.. Good luck with your project.
Cheers
Willa.
54 - 1143
65 - 7003080150R

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #19 on: Monday,December 19, 2022, 12:56:33 PM »
Thank you for the clue.
I found several makers of those type springs but also see that the SR20 open pressure is higher than the original springs at around 254 lb.
My hope is to actually reduce spring pressure without losing stability.
After hours of searching I found the set listed below.
These seem to be pretty close to original spec but in Beehive type.
Of course the free length and valve stem sizes are not given.
It also seems a set would do two heads so if anyone else wanted a half set the price is not bad.

Ford/Mazda DURATEC 2.0L/2.3L Single Beehive Valve Spring Kit.

SPRK-TS-DUR-BE2
Beehive Valve Spring Kit
      OutSpr.OD: 27.70mm
      InnSpr.OD: 23.20mm
      InnSpr.ID: 15.20mm
      Seat Pressure: 82 @34.50
      Open Pressure: 164 @ 10mm
      Max Lift: 13.00mm
      Coil Bind: 21.80mm
      Rate: 10.4
      Kit spring: SPR-TS1015-BE
      Kit spring qty: 16
      Retainer: RET-TS5.5/EX-BE
      Retainer qty: 16
      Seat Locator: SEAT-DUR1
      OutSpr.ID: 19.70mm
      Seat Locator qty: 16
« Last Edit: Thursday,January 19, 2023, 08:27:34 PM by Richard48Y »

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #20 on: Monday,December 19, 2022, 01:39:04 PM »
Got ahold of Supertech.
I would have to get custom retainers made.
But they will sell a half set so that helps to off-set the retainer expense.
Not sure if anyone else would be interested in this if I get it worked out?

Still working on a super-slick coating for rocker tips and possibly lifter faces.

Link to search Supertech for spring specs.
https://www.supertechperformance.com/c22435-valve-spring-kits
« Last Edit: Monday,December 19, 2022, 01:56:48 PM by Richard48Y »

Offline gideon

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #21 on: Monday,December 19, 2022, 02:32:47 PM »
Does anybody know if the same springs and retainers would work for an 821-30 engine?  Are the original valve spring specs written down somewhere?

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #22 on: Monday,December 19, 2022, 03:10:11 PM »
I have this information via Cat-Cams.
I believe these are specs for a stock set of R16/TS springs and retainers.
I do not know if they are the same as a Wedge head, I would not expect them to be.


intake

exhaust

follower
:  O.E.M. :: D21.70 // d<-> // h<->

:  O.E.M. :: D21.70 // d<-> // h<->
valve lash
:  O.E.M. ::

:  O.E.M. ::
valve
:  O.E.M. :: d8.00 // D40.2 // L110.9

:  O.E.M. :: d8.00 // D35.5 // L110.9
valve locks
:  O.E.M. :: KK-8H: d8.0 // 1gr // A14.3

:  O.E.M. :: KK-8H: d8.0 // 1gr // A14.3
upper retainer
:  O.E.M. :: 27.30 // 19.50

:  O.E.M. :: 27.30 // 19.50
lower retainer
:  O.E.M. ::

:  O.E.M. ::
exterior spring
:  O.E.M. :: D35.9 // d4.2 // Lf54.8 // Ls27.0

:  O.E.M. :: D35.9 // d4.2 // Lf54.8 // Ls27.0
interior spring
:  O.E.M. :: D24.9 // d2.6 // Lf46.3 // Ls19.0

:  O.E.M. :: D24.9 // d2.6 // Lf46.3 // Ls19.0


40 KG =  88.1849 Lb.      78Kg. = 171.9606

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #23 on: Monday,December 19, 2022, 06:48:49 PM »
Got a reply from Supertech.
Still a little more open spring pressure than the 150-155 I am ideally looking for.
No Ti. keeper included and only twelve to the set so the price is very good.
I am going to try to borrow or buy samples.

Also found out today that my email to Delta Cams with specs never made it.
So I have re-sent it.

Hello,
The spring below is a beehive spring that may work.
 
SPR-HM1007BE-12
Beehive Valve Springs

Seat Pressure: 70 @ 39.40
Open Pressure: 197 @ 10
Max Lift: 14.00mm
Coil Bind: 22.80mm
InnSpr.ID: 14.50mm
InnSpr.OD: 24.20mm
OutSpr.ID: 18.80mm
Rate: 12.7
 
 
Best regards
 
Willy Tagliavini
Supertech Performance Inc.
285 Digital Dr., Morgan Hill, CA 95037. USA

www.supertechperformance.com

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #24 on: Thursday,January 19, 2023, 07:27:18 PM »
Got my cam back from Delta Cams.
The cam card is attached below.
Converting inch to millimeter it seems I will have too much valve lift.
As I recall 10mm valve lift is considered the limit for reasonable cam and lifter life?
This is giving me about 11.557mm!
I really need to know the exact stock rocker ratio, I have seen 1.52-1 and 1.55-1.
Both are above the 1.5-1 the cam grinder used to calculate specs.
At 1.55-1 my intake open would be 11.92784mm or nearly .4696".
This is more than my very hot-rod 327 SBC!

I had expected to have a conversation confirming the grind specifications before the work was completed.
That did not happen and it looks like I need to send it back to be tamed a bit, or send it to someone else, maybe Salv.
Having to ship to the UK and back does not seem reasonable.

Delta had also said they would address the cam heel/lifter face drag issue but they did not.
So I am not really happy at this point and will contact them in the morning to see how this is to be resolved.
I had high hopes for them, I have several more cams needing attention.

Those of you who speak cam please feel free to chime in.
« Last Edit: Thursday,January 19, 2023, 07:29:48 PM by Richard48Y »

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #25 on: Thursday,January 19, 2023, 09:18:59 PM »
Email sent to supertechperformance.com.
Hopefully I have not missed anything that should be obvious and will not look foolish.
They are in CA so not too far away if it were not winter.
------------------------
I am still trying to find a suitable bee-hive spring to update the Renault type 807.20 engine with 17TS head used in my Lotus Europa.
There are actually a fair number of this type engine still around as they also fit the classic Renault Alpine A110 and Gordini 17TS.
I have this as original replacement specifications.
From a French site, so metric.
intake      exhaust
follower   :  O.E.M. :: D21.70 // d<-> // h<->      :  O.E.M. :: D21.70 // d<-> // h<->
valve lash   :  O.E.M. ::       :  O.E.M. ::
valve   :  O.E.M. :: d8.00 // D40.2 // L110.9      :  O.E.M. :: d8.00 // D35.5 // L110.9
valve locks   :  O.E.M. :: KK-8H: d8.0 // 1gr // A14.3      :  O.E.M. :: KK-8H: d8.0 // 1gr // A14.3
upper retainer   :  O.E.M. :: 27.30 // 19.50      :  O.E.M. :: 27.30 // 19.50
lower retainer   :  O.E.M. ::       :  O.E.M. ::
exterior spring   :  O.E.M. :: D35.9 // d4.2 // Lf54.8 // Ls27.0      :  O.E.M. :: D35.9 // d4.2 // Lf54.8 // Ls27.0
interior spring   :  O.E.M. :: D24.9 // d2.6 // Lf46.3 // Ls19.0      :  O.E.M. :: D24.9 // d2.6 // Lf46.3 // Ls19.0
fitted load / length   : 40kg @ 39.5mm      : 40kg @ 39.5mm
max. load / lift   : 78kg @ 11.5mm (88.1849 Lb.)   : 78kg @ 11.5mm (171.9606 Lb.)
(The stock specs did display correctly in my email, not sure why not here)
I measured my valve guide at .489" Dia., .655" above the spring seat without shims.
Seat to bottom of the spring retainer with the valve closed was 1.6".
I have a lathe so may make custom spring seats on my own if necessary.

As near as I can tell SPRK-TS-DUR-BE2 may be usable but the published specs are incomplete.
I do not see free or installed height, the inner and out diameters seem oddly stated as there is no inner and outer spring, just one.

If my estimate appears reasonably correct I would like to buy or borrow a single spring and retainer to test fit.
If they do work I will only need eight.
If they do work I am sure other Renault engine builders will also adopt them.
Excess spring pressure is a killer of our valve trains, particularly cams and lifters.
Cast cam cores are no longer available and billet cams are too expensive.
If you have an alternate suggestion based on the specs I have been able to provide please let me know the part number.

These are your specs I do have:
SPRK-TS-DUR-BE2
Beehive Valve Spring Kit
      OutSpr.OD: 27.70mm
      InnSpr.OD: 23.20mm
      InnSpr.ID: 15.20mm
      Seat Pressure: 82 @34.50
      Open Pressure: 164 @ 10 (MM?)
      Max Lift: 13.00mm
      Coil Bind: 21.80mm
      Rate: 10.4
      Kit spring: SPR-TS1015-BE
      Kit spring qty: 16
      Retainer: RET-TS5.5/EX-BE
      Retainer qty: 16
      Seat Locator: SEAT-DUR1
      OutSpr.ID: 19.70mm
      Seat Locator qty: 16

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #26 on: Saturday,January 21, 2023, 11:43:00 AM »
Got a response from Supertech.
The springs I had thought might work are too short.
They also have trouble dealing with 8mm valve stems.

I can make custom spring seats on my lathe to take up the missing pre-load.
Supertech are suggesting conversion to 6mm valve stems which would also be lighter weight.

Has anyone done a conversion to "Modern" 6mm valves?
If so, what did you start with?

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #27 on: Saturday,January 21, 2023, 07:11:37 PM »
Searching the web for 42/43 mm and 35.4 mm Ex. with 6 mm stem valves has been fruitless.
Going to have to make some calls on Monday.
I had a little concern over durability but found that even Nascar engine builders are using them.
They run valves very hard, up to 9,000 rpm for five hundred miles at a time.
6 mm are also used for a lot of current "Tuner" engines.
So I guess they are at least as durable as hollow stem valves that have been around for a long time.
Spent my current funds on a new frame head T, so research is all I can really do on the engine at the moment.
I've found that at least one maker of custom valves has a fifty piece minimum and there is no way I can do that unless at least ten more folk want to go this route.
I will be contacting additional possible suppliers in hope of a less expensive solution.
I hope to eventually have an upgrade valve-train setup that can be shared.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #28 on: Saturday,January 21, 2023, 08:25:57 PM »
I think Meca sells guides and valves in 7mm.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: 807/TS DD, Auto-X, Hill-Climb build.
« Reply #29 on: Saturday,January 21, 2023, 11:14:53 PM »
Banging my head against their site, even with web translation it is frustrating to search.
In any case it seems I really need 6mm stems to get Beehive springs to work.