#460002 - Restoration

[GavinT]

My 2 cents worth.

With all these small volume projects, it inevitably comes down to a numbers game.
If it’s intended to make thousands or even a hundred, the set-up and design outlays can be more easily absorbed with the final cost spread being reasonable.

When considering just a handful or even in the tens, those initial outlays tend to dominate. Recent examples of rear uprights should provide some insight.
With that said, I’ve also been surprised with the willingness of some to bear those inherently high costs.

If it were me, I’d forget the idea of a plastic manifold altogether.
If quantities of 1 - 5 is envisaged, then cutting two plates and welding runners in between is hard to beat.
In practical terms and considering the sheer outlay of time, the effort spent on a jig for this is likely well worth it.

To do more than five, I’d consider sand casting. It likely depends on where you are but it’s certainly possible to find smaller foundries that are willing and able to take on small projects like these.
In this respect, 3D printing the manifold and cores would be an excellent way to do it.

[Serge]

I agree, Gavin.

This is what I've got so far:

Sand casting:
€3650 for tooling
€145 per manifold for casting
will need machining

CNC aluminium
400 euro for the runners
+/- 100 euro for the flanges (stil waiting on quotes)
will still need welding and machining

3D printing in high temp thermoplastic
I can do the printing at home
about 100€ worth of materials for printing
will then need infiltrating with epoxy for strength and fuel resistance.

Sandcasting isn't too expensive,
but would need some commitment for some manifold from others,
would be too much to take the hit on, if I am left with 10 manifolds.

But I am leaning more and more towards the thermoplastic manifold. Cylinderhead temperatures will almost never reach 200°C (400°F), because the head and block wil act as a giant heat sink. If the head would reach that temperature, even the aluminium head would distort. If I had a running car, I would try it without hesistation, but am still a long way from that. A simple test would prove or disprove the idea. But you would need to pay attention to it, I wouldn't test it driving at first. If it shouldn't work, you'll have fuel spraying on the exhaust manifold.

Serge

[GavinT]

Hi Serge,

You mention €3650 for tooling for sand casting.
I’m wondering what exactly you get for that €3650?
I can only presume it’s the pattern, yes?

If you 3D print the sections & cores, you are essentially supplying the pattern but you’d need to integrate it on a board that suits his core box.
I was only peripherally involved in a small casting project here in Oz. The foundry guy explained what was needed and my friend made the pattern. That’s why I say it’s essential to find someone who does these small jobs. They are out there and are prepared to provide some guidance.

On the thermoplastic manifold, I reckon you’ll need to consider the proximity of the exhaust manifold, not the head. The exhause would get a lot hotter than 200°C.

Presumably the thermoplastic softens at some temperature point. What happens to the manifold over the longer term with the mass of the throttle bodies cantilevered out over that hot exhaust?

For me, I’d have to be convinced there’s zero chance of that manifold sagging and/or developing a leak and dropping fuel onto the exhaust.

[andy harwood]

FWIW, my brother in law owns a small machine/casting shop in Vietnam. This is something they are entirely capable of. Most of his casting business is for Japanese motorcycle companies. Intakes, footpegs, other brackets and other items. We'll be leaving Vietnam in a couple weeks, but will probably return around the end of the year. If you can supply some info, I can relay to him, see just how feasible/costly it would be. (although the logistics may be a bit hard to deal with) Pic is of one of his products.

[EuropaTC]

Apologies in advance if I'm "teaching granny..etc" but these comments about thermoplastics caught my eye.  Now I'm at least 12 yrs out of this field but the idea of using a thermoplastic in a hot, stressed application rings a warning bell.  ( we had a lot of failures with engineers using polyprop/pvdf/ectfe well above sensible levels and the response was always "but it says xxxC in the book" )

I know you can get high temperature thermoplastics but generally speaking thermoplastics soften when warm so they can be reformed into another shape, so it's not the absolute temperature range on the spec sheet, it's the mechanicals vs temp that's interesting. For example, ptfe is stable at 300C but it's mechanical properties are gone well before that so it's the heat distortion temperature limit you need, not the maximum service temperature.   

So a manifold with a carb hanging off it would make me think more in terms of thermosets that thermoplastics. Epoxy for example is a thermoset which would probably work although I've no idea on exactly which specification you'd need for say 150C.    I did wonder if a carbon fibre/epoxy laminate might make a good choice, light, chemically resistant to fuel and you could lay up exactly the diameter/angles you need ?

I think metal might be the easiest/safest route, especially if you can buy pre-cut flanges and fittings as you do making exhausts up. Thin (1.2mm) stainless might be another option ?

Brian

[Serge]

The thermoplastic is stable and loadable up to 230 centigrade.

Making the runners out of carbon/epoxy isn’t that difficult, because I can print the molds. But as you know, high temp epoxy is only good upto 170 centigrade.

The thermoplastic is also compatible with FG/CF/epoxy, so I could print and strengthen without issue.

Serge

[GavinT]

FWIW, my brother in law owns a small machine/casting shop in Vietnam.
[...]
Pic is of one of his products.

Andy, that looks like a very nice part . . and it's quite a thin casting too.
Could he accomodate small quantities?

I can see Europa manifolds and uprights in his future. 

[andy harwood]

I've not asked, but I'm pretty sure he can.
The probable only drawbacks are - distance, distribution, and import duties/taxes(?)
It may be the end of the year, early next year before we'll be back in VN.


https://youtu.be/6Mbh7hvYW5c
https://youtu.be/edRU054xcEo

[EuropaTC]

The thermoplastic is stable and loadable up to 230 centigrade.

Making the runners out of carbon/epoxy isn’t that difficult, because I can print the molds. But as you know, high temp epoxy is only good upto 170 centigrade.

The thermoplastic is also compatible with FG/CF/epoxy, so I could print and strengthen without issue.

Serge

Thanks for the info, I didn't realise that such materials were 3D printable, it just shows how much progress we make these days.  I'd have guessed 150C would be about all you'd need but I suppose it depends on the configuration and engine tune.  I know modern cars use a lot of plastic for intakes, etc, I just didn't realise these were also in the DIY area.

If you go that way I think it's going to be a fascinating project, I'll look forward to hearing more about it.  3D printing is the next level to sorcery for me, so you've got me hooked !

Brian

[Serge]

Water jet cutting flanges is really cheap. But CNC’ing the runners will be too expensive, they would be made outside of Europe, so import taxes would apply, so costs only keep mounting up.

Serge

[Serge]

New video!

I made my own 'Oddie plates', these are the plates for the original quick release fasteners (Oddie brand originally).

The original ones are made from steel, and are very rusty. So with some trial and error, I managed to copy them in aluminium.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkYDigTdMhw

[BDA]

Nicely done, Serge! Very clever!

[Willa]

I too am in the process of making an intake runner system for my engine and think that fabricating is the way to go. I have been looking to see what conical tubes were already being manufactured and came across these, www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-frame-tubing/NOVA-50.8mm-x-3.7-200mm.html

Whilst they are straight I think they could work quite well for a dcoe set up like I am planning and making then port match should be reasonably easy, just have to make sure the flanges are aligned properly. I am aiming for a 10inch runner so the manifold length should only need to be aprox 5.5 inches

Not sure if this is useful, however given the cost I will probably purchase 4 pipes and see what a manufactured manifold looks like.
Cheers,
Willa.

[Serge]

A few new videos uploaded in the last few weeks:

Painting the emblem:
https://youtu.be/cDVnJ-FZ76I

The first fiberglass repairs:
https://youtu.be/f4zH8IYHti4

New pedal assembly:
https://youtu.be/4DMYA8ojESo

Enjoy!

Serge

[jbcollier]

Your S1 shouldn't have an "Europa" emblem.  That came later.