Author Topic: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K  (Read 1034 times)

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Offline Vegantune

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'73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« on: Tuesday,October 18, 2022, 10:17:51 AM »
1973 TCS Stromberg 4-speed on eBay action at https://www.ebay.com/itm/144771433117. Factory invoiced 11/72, bought 04/73 in NJ, spent life there until bought in 06/2011 off eBay by Hoyt Wood, Lake City, SC. Since then its been sitting 11 years. Listing says started up recently, but no mention of first changing oil/filter, or prelube on cams and cylinders (ouch!). Some odd mods like exhaust, but appears more or less original with decent oatmeal interior. Replaced dash and pad were part of older restoration work done by Wood.

Paint color changed years ago from Lagoon Blue (L12) to red for unknown reasons, now has serious issues. Some other lesser issues like freckled chrome, carb flooding, stuck down driver window, seat belt retractor cover(s) missing, all passenger compartment fresh air blocked off with tape (!), rear view mirror not mounted or original, could not give me that radiator fan, and question reason for funky mix of shocks. Ad when bought in 2011 claimed no collision damage or rust.

Believe Hoyt is still owner and current seller. Might can contact directly at hoyt@sc.rr.com for more details if that email is still good. I'll just say starting price is a matter of opinion, and leave it there.
« Last Edit: Thursday,October 20, 2022, 12:35:31 AM by Vegantune »
- A Norwegian Blue with beautiful plumage is still nothing but a dead parrot.

1973 Black Europa TCS/Vegantune JPS #180
1973 White Europa TCS
2012 Jaguar XJL 5.0 Supercharged
1975 Ferrari Dino 308 GT4
1994 Volvo 940 Shoebox Wagon
2005 Yamaha V Star
1998 Kawasaki XII Voyager

Offline Bainford

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $20K
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday,October 19, 2022, 11:03:46 AM »
I see he has sorted a few issues, and is now asking $26,000. The ad says he is getting paint quotes, expected to be in the $2000-$3000 range, and once painted the car will be in the $30,000-$39,000 price range, and capable of winning trophies at Hilton Head or Amelia Island concourse.
« Last Edit: Wednesday,October 19, 2022, 11:13:10 AM by Bainford »
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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $20K
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday,October 19, 2022, 11:31:57 AM »
I see he has sorted a few issues, and is now asking $26,000. The ad says he is getting paint quotes, expected to be in the $2000-$3000 range, and once painted the car will be in the $30,000-$39,000 price range, and capable of winning trophies at Hilton Head or Amelia Island concourse.
That seems like a lot of wishful thinking. The paint job on my car over twenty years ago was over $6000 and while it was nice, I did not ask for a show car job. Even if he got a show car paint job, I don't see it winning trophies at Amelia Island with that car. It will be a nice driver. Still probably not the $25K he wants now.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $20K
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday,October 19, 2022, 12:23:24 PM »
This is the one I am surprised has not already sold.
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=5572.0
Yes it needs some work, and it is a less desirable TC  >:D but for the price I would be all over it if I was not deep into my S2.

Offline Vegantune

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $20K
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday,October 19, 2022, 04:33:20 PM »
Can't imagine any $2K-$3K paint job being "... capable of winning trophies at Hilton Head or Amelia Island concourse." Sounds to me like an Macco "hide that ugly to sell quick" Krylon spray can special. Wouldn't even begin to properly fix stress cracks that will undoubtedly be returning after a few months later. But that addition about $2k-$3K paint job in ad has since been removed, although Hilton Head and Amelia Island trophy winner remains with note "once painted". Well, yes, but not just paint would be needed to think about that show level.

He also moved latest price down a bit to $24.999 - second change today (-$1K on 10/19)) in less than two hours after earlier increase to $26K at 9:23:52 AM PDT. What I don't get is he plastered 336 gearbox all over ad, but TCS 4 speed would have to be a 352, and linkage shown in photo #19 is for that box, not 336. SMH. Then some UK-MOT numbers implying only six TCS in Britain, and citing 585 "registered worldwide", selling notion is is ultra rare. But MOT (checks road safety and environmental standards) is not even required in UK for cars this old, so that tells nothing about how many actual cars there are there.

Howmanyleft.co.uk, shows 56 Europas are road licensed as Specials, and another 32 are "SORN" (Statutory Off Road Notification - no subject to tax but exist) in UK as of 2Q2022 for a total of 88. But some Specials got registered via original dealer paperwork as "Twin Cams" (total 58 licensed plus 38 SORN = 96), so those 88 UK-based Europas identified as Specials are, in fact, an under-count. Meanwhile, using MOT to claim scarcity with statement in ad "INCREDIBLY ONLY 6 (SIX) REMAIN IN THE UK !" is pure BS. Figure there are 100 or more Specials in UK, given 2/3rds of all Type 74s were Specials compared to 1/3rd Twin Cams.

I see a big dose of sales ad s·t·r·e·t·c·h here, with obvious spin, misinformation, and errors in latest of 18 total eBay ad revisions logged in two days (11/18 & 11/19), 14 of which were to the description text. Add to that ealeir claim this is a "one owner car" because the second owner let it sit off on the road for 11 years is bull. Call it a US "SORN", but ownership changed when it was purchased from first owner - the one who bought it new. But now that's been removed from ad, and instead says "I'M THE SECOND OWNER". Perhaps seller is checking posts here to get their story straight? If so, ad still needs some rewriting.
« Last Edit: Thursday,October 20, 2022, 08:00:23 AM by Vegantune »
- A Norwegian Blue with beautiful plumage is still nothing but a dead parrot.

1973 Black Europa TCS/Vegantune JPS #180
1973 White Europa TCS
2012 Jaguar XJL 5.0 Supercharged
1975 Ferrari Dino 308 GT4
1994 Volvo 940 Shoebox Wagon
2005 Yamaha V Star
1998 Kawasaki XII Voyager

Offline Vegantune

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #5 on: Friday,October 21, 2022, 09:44:59 PM »
It starting to appear the seller is likely reading posts here. Changed ad again, removed BS comments about 6 MOT registrations, used the 86 TCS numbers in UK database posted here. Now on revision #19. Latest ignores fact that an unknown number of Europas registered as TC are actually TCS versions, plus fact that 2/3rds of all TC/TCS production was TCS, not TC, while database numbers are roughly a 50/50 split - additional evidence more than a few TCS got entered as TC. Meanwhile, still claims "only 585 cars survived World wide", a number apparently pulled for the six year dormant registry, which was never comprehensive.

There is NO reliable source for that total global count, only for ones that have been recorded somewhere by someone at sometime. Japan? New Zealand? Canada? Australia? Europe? Who knows? Even England and US? I have two TCS sitting just a feet away, and one I promise isn't in any database anywhere. That also doesn't count race car conversions. If I wanted to make wild extrapolations, I'd claim from my own circumstance that 585 is perhaps only half the real number. But I'm not going down that path of making up assumptions. We simple don't know.

Meanwhile, the sales bluster keeps changing, apparently as cockroaches of bad information now scatter to avoid the light. But new ones continue to  replace then, and ad still claims tranny is a 336 to garnish the mess. The most hilarious latest ad comment is "As the older generation like myself passes on, these Great cars will become EXTINCT." Well, maybe when gasoline is no longer available, and Cormac McCarthy's dystopian future arrives, we likely won't spot any of them on "the road". But that goes for all other fossil fuel cars. But until then, more than a few people will keep one for display, not counting several museums that already do.

This sale just keeps twisting its false narrative around more and more to sound like a bad late night TV commercial: "This could be the last chance to own a piece of Legendary Automotive History." Yes, if it means you got robbed of the opportunity to own a really good one, or at least an honest one. But that also seems to overlook 10's of 1000's or other desirable cars that will still be out there decades from now until every possible collectible automobile on earth vanishes from existence . . . sometime after all of us car nuts have previously become dust.

Another amusing pitch just added: "prices on Twin Cam Specials in the UK , have SOARED! (see last photo) $53k...$66k...$33k..." Cherry picking only the three top UK "asking prices", then converting those to $US tells us nothing about what willing buyers are actually PAYING for a few top end restored cars, something this one clearly is a ways from being. Nor does it say anything about those asking or sold prices here in the US where the this car actually being offered. This sale appears to be stuck in the spin cycle without ever having first just come clean.
« Last Edit: Friday,October 21, 2022, 09:51:19 PM by Vegantune »
- A Norwegian Blue with beautiful plumage is still nothing but a dead parrot.

1973 Black Europa TCS/Vegantune JPS #180
1973 White Europa TCS
2012 Jaguar XJL 5.0 Supercharged
1975 Ferrari Dino 308 GT4
1994 Volvo 940 Shoebox Wagon
2005 Yamaha V Star
1998 Kawasaki XII Voyager

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #6 on: Saturday,October 22, 2022, 01:09:55 AM »
There is a user on the Lotus Europas Facebook forum keeps posting similar info since he posted a link to the listing.......

Offline Vegantune

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #7 on: Saturday,October 22, 2022, 02:44:15 AM »
Just went and checked, and found post by James Hoyt on "Lotus Europas" FB group with identical UK price screen shot and list of same prices in $US that just got added to eBay ad (last photo). Old info I found on car showed owner was "Hoyt Wood". But both are "Hoyt", so must be I had only half the name right. But must be posts you are talking about.

Looks like comments posted back from others on that have same take I did: asking price means nothing. Anyone can ask anything they want. Sold price is reality. But even then, you can't take some UK price, covert to $US, and then say that's the selling price here. Was there another post pointing out some of the same info? I'll have to look some more later. If so, you would think this guy would take a hint, and realize this kind of BS doesn't fool anyone who knows these cars.

Gotta be him. Just looked again, found an earlier post with junk about MOT numbers and only 6 TCS in UK crap just like what was in eBay ad. I'll go back and read comments for that one later. Hope there are some good ones explaining MOT is meaningless. Don't know why there are even six at this age. So James Hoyt is trying to make people believe his uber-rarity claim so they will go buy his car? Hope folks do their homework first, or at least stop and think. If there really were only 6 in UK, that means I owns same as 1/3rd of all what's left in UK. That's a laugh.

I think you are right. This James Hoyt is the eBay seller, and he's posting stuff on Lotus Europas FB page. And members there are telling him it is crap, and at least some of the time, he then changes his eBay ad. I can see now that's where he's getting his does of reality, not me or here. Comments are all on the same track. Seller is quite a huckster, but properly getting called out for it.
« Last Edit: Saturday,October 22, 2022, 01:42:45 PM by Vegantune »
- A Norwegian Blue with beautiful plumage is still nothing but a dead parrot.

1973 Black Europa TCS/Vegantune JPS #180
1973 White Europa TCS
2012 Jaguar XJL 5.0 Supercharged
1975 Ferrari Dino 308 GT4
1994 Volvo 940 Shoebox Wagon
2005 Yamaha V Star
1998 Kawasaki XII Voyager

Offline SilverBeast

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #8 on: Saturday,October 22, 2022, 02:44:07 PM »
Yes. I'm Richard Ginn on the FB forums. I posted the UK info from howmanyleft.co.uk, and also about the misnaming and not needing MOT's.

The MOT'd cars probably sold in the last year as it's easier to sell with one as it gives the buyer a bit more  piece of mind. Mine had one when I bought it, even though it didn't need one.  It also gives insurance companies one less reason for denying a claim!

Offline Vegantune

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #9 on: Saturday,October 22, 2022, 04:25:48 PM »
Thanks, Richard. I wondered why anyone in UK would have an MOT one any Europa at this point. But what you said makes sense. What seller is posting unfortunately twists that into some bogus claim. Looks like you and I are on the very same page with this one. Hope no one gets fooled by it. A TCS that isn't running with lousy paint can't be worth what he's asking. And assume there is other work to be done, started with rusted up front calipers and master cylinder after sitting 11 years. But other unknowns.

I laugh at this quote in his ad: "This could be the last chance to own a piece of Legendary Automotive History." I'm quite sure it is far from the last chance, and better ones are still out there worth finding. At least it appears your comments are getting him to do a number of edits to his ad, but it is still hype beyond reality. SMH.
« Last Edit: Saturday,October 22, 2022, 04:32:17 PM by Vegantune »
- A Norwegian Blue with beautiful plumage is still nothing but a dead parrot.

1973 Black Europa TCS/Vegantune JPS #180
1973 White Europa TCS
2012 Jaguar XJL 5.0 Supercharged
1975 Ferrari Dino 308 GT4
1994 Volvo 940 Shoebox Wagon
2005 Yamaha V Star
1998 Kawasaki XII Voyager

Offline Vegantune

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #10 on: Thursday,October 27, 2022, 07:17:26 PM »
@tedtaylor

Simple solution. Don't read. Then you won't need to protest.
« Last Edit: Thursday,October 27, 2022, 07:21:35 PM by Vegantune »
- A Norwegian Blue with beautiful plumage is still nothing but a dead parrot.

1973 Black Europa TCS/Vegantune JPS #180
1973 White Europa TCS
2012 Jaguar XJL 5.0 Supercharged
1975 Ferrari Dino 308 GT4
1994 Volvo 940 Shoebox Wagon
2005 Yamaha V Star
1998 Kawasaki XII Voyager

Offline Tony2ta2004

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #11 on: Friday,November 25, 2022, 11:20:22 AM »
Auction ended! I didn't see both brake servo anywhere in the pictures.

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #12 on: Friday,November 25, 2022, 11:30:56 AM »
It appears that they were deleted. There was no mention of them either being there or being deleted. There should have been something said about it and if they were deleted, a future owner should want to know if there was a change in the master cylinder.

Offline Tony2ta2004

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #13 on: Friday,November 25, 2022, 12:10:58 PM »
I totally agree! Whos' know what else is missing.


It appears that they were deleted. There was no mention of them either being there or being deleted. There should have been something said about it and if they were deleted, a future owner should want to know if there was a change in the master cylinder.

Offline MAK

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Re: '73 TCS on eBay Auction Starting at $25K
« Reply #14 on: Thursday,January 12, 2023, 06:35:11 PM »
Evening
This is my first time on the forum, so HI! 
I am on the hunt for a 72 - 74 TC.  I contacted the owner of this car last week; he's sticking to his story 100%. He is absolutely convinced that in its current state it's worth $24-$26, and once painted easily will bring $39 - $45.  In the past year 3 73's have sold $18.0; $24 & $28 average around $24. 
My guess is this car is closer to the $18, I offered him $17.5 and that's when I got the pitch on the "potential" $40 price, and he told me that I missed my chance in Oct to buy for $18.5.  I thanked him for his time and wished him the best of luck and hopes he gets every dime.

Also, in my hunt I have come across 5 - what I think are scams where they want to ship me the car and the transport company holds the money till, I accept.  I have offered that I arrange the shipping and wire the money once the carrier take possession.  Never heard from them again. 

« Last Edit: Thursday,January 12, 2023, 07:16:34 PM by MAK »
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