Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: kerrywittig on Wednesday,October 19, 2016, 02:25:09 PM
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What year or series or production period or country was the Europa available with a factory fitted 807-20 "hemi" engine?
Me
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NEVER
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Interesting....I have a 1970 S2 with an 807-20 that was installed in the car previous Nov. of 1974 and in fact even has the frame factory altered to provide clearance for the cast iron factory headers......odd....
When was the 807-20 in production?....Anyone know?
I read somewhere, that there was, a Swiss Lotus dealer that ordered, I believe, 15 Europa’s with 807 engines.....but the description of certain other items on these cars does not match this particular car.........such as, clear/white front turn/parking lenses versus the standard yellow.........of course these could have been changed I guess. It's just that the clearancing to the driver’s side frame "fork" to accommodate the headers is disconcerting. It is a factory deal....I have looked at it from every angle , looking for there to be an "obvious" cut, bend, re-shape, or weld to display a clue of it being "aftermarket"........it looks very much factory.
Me
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An 807-20 is probably from an R12 Gordini. It should have twin side draft 45DCOE Webers and produce around 125hp.
The cast iron headers are a 4 into 2 design which do require frame mods, but I seriously doubt the mods were done at Lotus. Check with Andy Graham. He will confirm the original engine type and number for your car.
The headers shown in the attached picture look the same as an R15/17 with an 807 type engine.
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Yeah, That's the engine and headers............so available prior to 1975?
How do I find Andy Graham?
The frame on mine is carved out to accomodate the headers...The odd thing is that ALL the other owner mods done on this barnfind were horrific (interior, hinges, fuel pump, battery placement, etc.) but the frame alteration is top-notch, I kid you not, it is very factory... I'll post pix when I get home in a month or two............
Thx, Me
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The original engine number is stamped on the chassis ID plate so it should be easy to determine that the engine in your car doesn't match the ID plate.
The engine number ID plate is on the LH side of the block just forward of the water pump inlet. It may be a perforated plate like the sample photo, or it maybe a stamped aluminium plate. Either way it will have 4 digits signifying the engine number.
About 5,000 807-20 engines were built as far as I know.
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AGraham@lotuscars.com
He is the Lotus archivist and can issue a Certificate of Provenance.
Post pictures of this mystery engine when you get a chance. It should go like a rocket!
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Never, officially but there may have been one or two done. See the September 1992 issue of Cars and Car Conversions for an article on one (rebuilt at Banks).
Lots and lots of Europas received cross-flow transplants from right when they were new till now.
Here are links to the Swiss brochure:
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-6wcvGLd/A
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-M6rbSp4/A
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Found this on Wikipedia..................
Non-factory custom specials
"Throughout its life, the Europa attracted the attention of many non-Lotus automotive customising businesses who offered "special" versions in small numbers to the public. Among these was the Swiss Lotus importer, who made two special versions of the S2 fitted with the Renault 16 TS type 807 engine, the "Europa Hemi 807" and the fuel injected "Europa Black Shadow 807". The Hemi 807 had 105 PS (77 kW) SAE and could reach 200 km/h (124 mph), while the Black Shadow had 137 PS (101 kW) on tap. The Black Shadow also received a five-speed gearbox.[15] These cars had a wider track, special wheels and stickers, white indicator lights up front, and featured extractor vents high on the side panel behind the rear door. The fuel injection system was from Kugelfischer."
My vehicle has NO injection, nor a 5 speed, white lenses or any "external/body modifications that I could find.
It is the chassis modification that baffles me. I build off-road chassis's (spellcheck).....this is a factory mod.........really it is very much a mod that came on this frame......I've owned a few Europa's since 1974 to present and I have never seen this on another....just looks too "stock", too factory to me. ALL other modifications to this vehicle were amatuer at best.........laughable, to say the least and then there is this chassis artwork!! Foose and Kindig would be impressed......
Me
I'll get pix and contact Andy once I return home and get this figured out......maybe.
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The Lotus chassis is very straight forward cut, folded and welded steel. Adding a cut-out and welding on a flange isn't particularly difficult. The 47 chassis has cut-outs made in this fashion. They are simply fabricated. See photo below.
It is a nice surprise to hear someone has put some effort into installing an 807. The R16TS 807-01 engines are plentiful in Australia and I don't think I have EVER seen an Australian Europa with a stock 697 engine , but they do exist.
The conversion usually incorporates a"cut-out" on the LH top chassis flange which has been created with a very big hammer. Ugly!
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No need to alter the frame to fit a cross-flow. You do have to use a tubular header though.
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:ttiwwp:
No need to alter the frame to fit a cross-flow. You do have to use a tubular header though.
Mine did need the chassis clearanced and it certainly appears to have been done at the factory, so it appears....
Me
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No need to alter the frame to fit a cross-flow. You do have to use a tubular header though.
Well..........here are pix.........
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Can you post close up photos of the frame cut-out? From the photos above it looks to have been nicely done but not factory.
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Can you post close up photos of the frame cut-out? From the photos above it looks to have been nicely done but not factory.
What about the cut indicates to you it is not factory?
Me
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I downloaded the photo but it is too low-res to see any detail. The "edge" of the stock Y section is made by folding. It adds significant strength and is simply and quickly done. The edge around the cut-out section couldn't be folded at the same time and would require cutting, triming, forming and welding. Unlikely to happen on a Lotus production line when adding a simple reinforcement beside the cut-out section would be quicker, cheaper and actually stronger. Someone went to a great deal of trouble to make it look factory so it's likely a PO with no cost associated to the time spent.
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I wrote Andy G. sent him pix.......we'll see what he says............
All I can say then, is that this was done between 1970-1973....1973 was the last year that PO was alive......and if you saw the upgrades/mods (if you could call them that) they were ALL junk, amatuer garbage...........this was not within this persons abilities.....Foose....yes, Kindig....probably.....Coddington....yeah. 1973 backyard garage.....not. Best to my ability is a judgement that this is factory........but.....................info was sent to Andy G.
Send me your direct email.....I'll send you an HD pix........
Me
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I have to agree with John, it's not factory. From your photo's it looks like the new flange is of thicker gauge steel. I seriously doubt that anyone at Lotus would use thicker material for a flange like that. The other thing is, if Lotus had let some crossflow motored cars out the back door, a) it would be common knowledge by now, and b) Jean Redele would have been furious with Renault and Lotus. I don't doubt that the modification was done in period, but it wouldn't have left Hethel with the mod.
Rod
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Andy G respondeed this morning to my question....
"Andy ever seen this or have an explanation? Clearancing/boxing of frame for exhaust headers......looks very factory!! See attached and noted photos please..........Kerry"
Dear Kerry,
I do not have enough hands on experience to answer that.
Andy Graham
Aftersales Administrator and Archivist
LOTUS AFTERSALES, Units 6 & 7 John Hyrne Way, Longwater Business Park, Costessey, Norwich, Norfolk NR5 0AF England.
T: +44/0 1603 732178 | E: agraham@lotuscars.com
So........Even "HE" can't say with any certainty whether that it was factory or not....Once I get this completely disassembled, and can get an unimpeded look at it, at all angles & in good light, hopefully it will become apparent as to when in it's formative years, "Who done it?"
Still puzzled Me
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There is an envelope icon under my signature GIF. Click it and you should get my email address. I can then post the photo to my hosting site for all to see.
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There is an envelope icon under my signature GIF. Click it and you should get my email address. I can then post the photo to my hosting site for all to see.
No email addy was found...
Mine is 16Ltoy@msn.com if you want to email me direct
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https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-rLjLGdw/A
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-c9hVc2X/A
Still not high-res enough but better.
Still looks to be not factory to me.
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So does the number on the ID plate and on the engine match?
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Well now with the engine and everything else removed from the frame................
It is most definetly an "aftermarket" swap.....just like JB said.
Engine and plate are not a match.....
So......It is what it is....
Thanks to all for putting up with my "determined" thoughts...
Me
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I just found this thread. I know it's over a year old but interesting to read. My thoughts were 1: anything they might do at the factory to modify the chassis. A competent steel shop could do just as well & perhaps better. In the factory they assemble cars not fabricate IE: Cut & weld a flange piece. 2: They certainly wouldn't change the tooling to form the chassis "leg" for the sake of a few special order cars. Leading back to 1. It quite obviously was done to a high order of attention true enough. Not the usual hack & burn that is so often seen on many different cars not just Europas. If it works it works & if it looks ok from across the street it's fine LOL That's the usual mentality particularly if it can't be seen from the outside.
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Does any one have a copy of the brochure or more details for the Swiss importers Europa Black Shadow 807 which sounds more the Gp4 cars used at the Ollon-Villars hillclimb in 1971 http://www.euromontagna.com/results...._race=34&lng=1
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Bad link.
This car?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-6wcvGLd/0/a752df39/O/Lotus%20Suisse%20Hemi.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-M6rbSp4/0/c8df2ac3/O/Hemi807_revueSuisseAnnuel1970.jpg)
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No JB, the fuel injected one, 5 speed box, body alterations, wider wheels, etc
https://www.automobile-catalog.com/car/1971/1433150/lotus_europa_black_shadow_807.html
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This is all I have on those:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-qmksSPf/0/a1993a60/X2/Period%20modified%2054%20show%20car-X2.jpg)
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(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-LTv56vm/0/45f2b6c5/O/P10-11-09_18_39BR.jpg.1271ebb27bd536784371ce3bde6630cd.jpg)