Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Classifieds Forums => eBay - Craigslist Ads - Other Listings => Topic started by: BDA on Wednesday,June 08, 2022, 02:43:23 PM
-
On sale at ebay for $69! And it's in the US!! https://www.ebay.com/itm/154673350644?hash=item24034007f4:g:zJ4AAOSw86tiPDb4
No affiliation, yada, yada, yada...
I thought this was an incredible price for those who are building or upgrading their cars. It looks very similar to one I bought several years ago for much more!
-
That's insane. You could practically buy one and sell it for scrap for more than that.
-
It's actually more insane than that! I kept flipping through my search "lotus cap" (I was amazed what it considered was related to those two words but we've all been there) and there were several other sellers selling the same radiators for about the same price. I think a lot of them were made and not sold so they're trying to get rid of the excess.
-
US$69.00 certainly is cheap! but the seller is actually located in China according to eBay.
There appears to be two main versions of these Chinese ally radiators - 62mm thick and 86mm thick.
Understandably the 86mm ones are more expensive (often much more) but I've not seen any complaints of either version.
-
You guys are very lucky with that deal, at that price I'd buy one just to fit when the mood took me. The seller doesn't ship to the UK and on Ebay UK even the thinner ones are more than double the price.
Snap their hands off !
Brian
-
Well I ordered one as it was too simple to pass up so when it arrives I will let you know what it is like
-
And you can make an offer and get it for less!
-
Seller gives three dimensions for overall size (19.68" x 10.51" x 3.54"), but only two (15-1/2" x 9-7/8") for core, with NO dimension given for thickness and no mention of tube size. This seller's photos seem chosen to disguise the inset of core front and back into frame compared to other seller pictures of same unit based on details including fan bracket design and similar prices that show a visibly deep core inset.
Shrink the core by much, and it does cut material costs/unit so you can sell cheap. But you end up with less cooling fin total area, and shrink tube width to fit giving less surface and coolant flow, all reducing heat exchange capability. To make matters far worse, aluminum only has 61% of the thermal conductivity of copper, so you theoretically need around 40% more surface area in an aluminum radiator just to equal the BTU transfer of a given copper unit.
I will be interested to hear what actual finned core thickness and tube IDs are when these start arriving. But if other pictures tell the story, my estimate is core is at most 2" to as little as 1-3/4". By comparison, I have a 3-row aluminum, but very different design with 3-1/2" wide frame. And that core is dead flush front and back under single sheet frame lip. The results is a full 3"+ core, which also allows for wide 5/8" x 1/8" ID tubes with space for and aft of each. So there are some really good aluminum ones made. But is this particular eBay offer one of them, or just OK for cooler locales outside the US?
These cars tends to run hot for most owners, more so here in the US, and worse for higher hp engine changes. With places like NYC and Fargo repeatedly hitting 100°F summer temps, and Minneapolis/St. Paul hitting 102°F today (06/20), never mind routine daily summer triple digits down south and west, if this deal was a full 3"or larger core, or very close given a 3.54" overall width claim (which I would also like to hear confirmation from someone who bought one), plus nice large tubes, it may well be a super bargain. But if it is anything like what other seller's photos are showing of this type, I would want both core width and tube specs before ordering. Frame width only tells me the core must be smaller, but how deeply inset is a big question.
If you got one of these, measure the core, estimate the tubes (look inside either host connection), and share the actual widths. That way we will know if it is a deal, or a dud. And keep in mind for comparison, your factory radiator may be old school with straight fins, but it does have a 3.8" core with tons of fin area to shed heat, unfortunately crippled in part by a weak fan and a somewhat leaky shroud. I suspect if you put a good fan (read: 10" Spal, although design constraints require a less effective pusher, not cheap China pancake) along with a good seal around the shroud on your stock unit, and this aluminum has the small core I think it does, your original can equal and likely outperform this eBay deal given the same fan setup.
Core (frame minus core inset front and back) and tube ID size, anyone?
-
I bought one and had my mechanic inspect it and he says it is very good value...welds are fantastic
Recoring my old one would be far too expensive
Will update when it is in the car
-
You will need to buy adaptors for the otter switch, drill new holes for the two studs, and cut those studs down, they are too long.
I bought 4. Much cheaper that refurbishing the originals.
The radiator includes the fan too.
-
Where do you get the adaptors for the Otter Switch
-
I got the new screw in Otter switches from :-
https://www.scparts.co.uk/sc_en/otter-switch-126497.
Then you need a brass adaptor, as the Otter switch is too small.
I seem to remember they were BSP threads.
Something like this:-
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/273087614630
At least they won't fall out like the original push in switches.
I fit a manual over-ride switch as well, basically a wire from the Otter switch to a manual toggle switch, to earth on the chassis at the base of the dashboard where the other wires go to earth.
-
IIRC, temp switches for some Toyotas match the threads in the radiator. A helpful parts guy can help you choose the right one with the temp range you prefer. I’ve found the guys at NAPA stores are usually very helpful. There is another option - a fan controller. They have a temperature probe that sits between the fins of the radiator and allow you to adjust when the fan comes on and off. They usually include a relay. You can probably get them at your parts store, Amazon, or eBay.
-
There's also adjustable otter switches that allow you to change the fan cut-in point.
Here's the Davies, Craig one but there's plenty of knock-offs about.
https://daviescraig.com.au/product/mechanical-thermatic-fan-switch-12v-24v-0401/mechanical-thermatic-fan-switch-12v-24v-0401
-
I paid a lot more for mine, wish I had waited. :( I got an otter switch that doesn’t need an adapter. I believe it was a match for vw rabbit/golf.
-
This Chinese radiator looks like a great upgrade from the original but is still roughly at the same level of cooling.
I recently saw a post for a Jeep xj swap. https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/aerodynamics-presented-nine-lives-racing/mid-engine-radiator-mounting-and-ducting/193435/page1/
Has anyone tried this? It looks like a straight forward upgrade, adds some cooling and keeps the original look at roughly the same weight..
I have always had OK but marginal cooling. With an upgrade to an 807 engine I'm leaning towards this jeep radiator. It will require some ducting (which would strengthen the front) and a couple of additional front end vents for cabin cooling. The exhaust would be through both wheel arches, you could even add a little exhaust ducting to incorporate a modern air curtain for the front wheels.
Ron
-
I have one of those Chinese aluminum radiators (from comments, it seems they come in a couple of different flavors and I don't know which flavor I have. It is about the size of the original radiator. I have no cooling problems with my car, even in the summer in mild traffic. Deep downtown stop and wait traffic might be different. As long as I'm moving on the highway, no fan is needed. If that sounds like the kind of driving you do, I suspect that an aluminum radiator is all you need. My fan is a pusher. If I had mounted it as a puller, it would be a bit more efficient. Also, I run distilled water with Red Line Waterwetter and no antifreeze.
I might mention that when I was building my car, I took my radiator to a shop to be inspected and cleaned if needed. He looked at it and said he could build a better radiator that was thinner, which he did. It was at least 1/2" thinner and made of brass and I never had any trouble with it. I sold it to somebody when the aluminum radiators became more common.
If you want better cooling, I think there is a Scirocco radiator that is generally mounted at an angle in front of the front trunk and exhausted through a modified bonnet lid. I'm not sure that that would be much more difficult to install. It might be easier.
Dave Anderson documented what he did on his car, including his radiator here (https://www.prevanders.net/europa/radiator.html). Unfortunately, he doesn't really specify what radiator he ended up with. He mentions the AFCO AFC-80107N but the pictures of those have the hose ports at right angles to the radiator.
-
I'll be posting about this in more detail later but the single most important change you can make is to fit a proper rad fan with large blades that flows large volumes of air. I have tried different rads, thermostats, electric water pumps, etc and the only thing that made any difference was putting on a kick-ass fan. The difference was dramatic, dropping my hot-day, ac-on, engine temps by 15°C even though I didn't have the coldest thermostat fitted.
All this assumes your cooling system is in good shape (no missing rad baffle, etc) and you are running an appropriate water/antifreeze mix.
To be frank, very few aftermarket fans in the 10" and 11" size put out enough air. All the thin, multi-blade units that are commonly available are useless. It needs large, deep blades and a high speed (high amp) motor. There are two or three available from SPAL but they are hard to find in today's messed up shipping situation. I read on the GGLC site that some people had fit rad fans from 70s Mercedes and very very happy with the results so I tracked one down and tried it. The part numbers to cross are: Bosch JPK12V0130701006 or Mercedes 000 500 4093. You'll have to fab your own mounts but it wasn't hard to do. It did what all the prior rads, electric pumps, etc didn't, it kept things cool.
-
So has anyone actually ran their car with one of these?
I want to put an aluminum radiator in TCST but most Cheena made stuff is junk and I told
myself I would not try to use any parts from there.....but the price is hard to ignore if they actually cool well...
-
I understand your reticence about Chinese stuff but see my comment above. I have one and it works fine and looks great. The only complaint I had is that the mount for the fan almost fit the fan I bought but one of the studs was off by about 1/4" so I had to get that fixed. It fit perfectly in my car.
As I said, I don't know how many rows mine has but I think 3 is the max and the one I linked has three. You might compare other dimensions with other aluminum radiators.
-
I have had no problems with overheating yet.
Fitting the rad, you have to drill new holes, and the two studs that stick out of the bottom are too long.
Once you find an otter switch which fits, then they are very good value.
-
I asked for a quote from Ron Davis Racing.... $1235.00 4-1/2 week delivery.....
Looks like made in cheena will work for now!
-
You're a bit of a gun welder, Turbo.
For that sort of money, it might be worth contacting a radiator core supplier and fabricate your own.
-
Ordered a $132 ebay radiator today....thought the core looked better that the $69 ones....we will see....
-
I'd say you made the right choice. I finally got the real specs of the $69 one, and it isn't good. They are priced cheap for more than one reason. A well-made Europa three row aluminum radiator will have at least a 3-1/2" or thicker shell with a 3" thick core (same as original), which also gives room for their wider flow tubes.
Turns out my previously posted guesses for the for $69 version dimensions, identified by fan strap mount design and just 3" overall thickness (not the 3.5" they claim), were very close. Actual core is less than 2" thick, recessed into the shell by 5/8" on both sides. Compare that to just 1/4" recess or less on a good 3 1/2" aluminum three-rows on eBay. That also means this $69 one will have smaller flow tubes of 1/2" OD each or less to space three within a 2" core, each with a smaller ID, so less thermal transfer area.
Now factor in established 40% reduced thermal transfer of efficiency of aluminum compared to copper in the original. The Europa original copper cores I checked on two units were very close to 3" (outer shell were 3 1/2"). Comparing overall thermal transfer efficiency, the $69 units are well below half the performance of original copper radiator: 67% of core width times 60% of thermal transfer efficiency = 40%, or a 1.2" copper equivalent performance.
You are unfortunately going to take a hit with aluminum's lesser thermal transfer, so make sure the core is as thick as original. Then add a Spal pusher fan, not some poor performing China pancake, and make sure the fan is perimeter sealed so it all goes into the radiator, not just spill across the face of the radiator and recirculate inside the nose of the car to simply preheat incoming air.
We've already set new record highs this year in Fargo, Dallas, Springfield, Phoenix, OK City, New York, London, Paris, and more. Depending on where you live, which better be well above the 49th parallel, I'd not want one of the $69 ones into a car with a history of marginal cooling or worse in elevated ambient temps.
-
I also have about 628 square inches of surface on the 6061 aluminum coolant piping that I fabricated…
maybe I should add a fan to blow through the chassis …..
-
Seller gives three dimensions for overall size (19.68" x 10.51" x 3.54") . . .
This "GPI Racing" radiator quotes overall dimensions as 500 x 331 x106mm
Which translates to 19.68" x 13.03" x 4.17"
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/255530726679?hash=item3b7ed17517:g:BfsAAOSwDFViezTj
Leaving aside the core thickness for a moment, there seems to be a height difference of roughly 2.5 inches!
I wonder if that's a typo.
What is the height of the stock radiator?
-
About 11 inches
-
Original equipment radiator height is 11". Free space above is 1.5". Exit grille opening in wheelwell height is only 9". Using all available free space above, only 12.5" would fit, and likely no way to install given studs on bottom. But it would still be limited on exit by 9" high grille exit in body. the 13.03" has to include both the mounting tab that sticks up on top plus the studs on bottom to account for another 2".
The radiator depth (or may be given as width), as seen in the $69 radiator, does not tell anything about the core thickness. However, the post on eBay you cited does specify a core of 62mm = 2.44 inches. Which tells me the 4.17" depth (or width) they specify is either way off, or is more likely includes something else that sticks out, probably the fan studs.
BTW, that is quite a premium price for that radiator in the post you cited. I wonder if these folks would ship you one, and even with shipping to Australia, cost a lot less for the very same radiator? You might ask. https://www.ebay.com/itm/403091584657
-
They may be including the length of the mounting studs etc for shipping size
-
They often given the dimensions of an item already packed for shipping.
-
This is the $132 radiator...the fan will need upgraded but by getting it with a fan the brackets are there.....this new setup saves almost 19lbs of weight
-
It may be an optical illusion but it looks to noticeably smaller and thinner than the original.
-
Which one? The one above (Turboforce's) or the $69 one? Not an optical illusion for $69 one: overall front to back is 1/2" smaller than original radiator. More important, core is 40% thinner than original due to combination of narrower overall dimension plus greater shell inset both front and back, leaving just 1.75" core on $69 vs. 3" for original.
For Turboforce's above, front to back just under 3/16" less than original. But core is identical thickness as original at 3", also allowing larger flow tubes to be kept. That small difference results from inset of the original core is being greater front and back than Turboforce's new one. So outer shell of original is about 0.18" thicker front to back. But all other measurements on Turboforce's are essentially identical to original, noting the end caps are slightly wider. But neither encl cap contributes anything to cooling, as the back sides on both are blocked off by bodywork. Any air passing over them ends up becoming recirculated heat in the front compartment rather than exiting.
If his appears otherwise, that would have to be an optical illusion, possibly in part because original is sitting up off the cardboard as evidenced by shadow below, likely because the exit screen is attached, and because the seam between the original's side cap and the cooling area appears to, instead, be the top of the cap, which is actually further forward and down.
-
I haven't seen anyone mention it yet but the cheap Ebay radiator doesn't look to have a baffle welded into the tank where the inlet and outlet pipes are. You can clearly see one welded in the picture that TurboForce has posted.
Ross
-
Interesting observation. If that were true, one might assume this is a single pass radiator, rather than a more thermally efficient two pass. But the $69 has to be separated internally. Without the partition, coolant would take the path of least resistance, going directly from inlet straight to outlet, and never flow through the radiator at all. This is why a single pass radiator in a street vehicle is easy to spot. The inlet is on one side, and outlet on the opposite side.
Incidentally, a triple pass will also have inlet and outlet on opposite sides. But a triple pass requires a really high volume pump to work, often using a 1:1 pulley off the crank. Put a triple in with a conventional regular pump, and the resulting thermal transfer would actually be worse than a two pass. Each time the coolant turns around, the flow creates internal fluid friction that also creates eddy pools, both of which increase the pressure needed to maintain the same flow rate (the same as with bends in any hydraulic line, including brake lines). Even a two pass needs a decent pump to work well to offset that flow resistance (the turbulence factor, aka the Reynolds number).
-
For the record, mine is 3 3/4" thick. There is no outward sign of a baffle between the inlet and outlet ports on mine that I can tell (there are no welds or other evidence of mechanical attachments there) but I know there is one because I've tested the water flow. Either I'm not looking for the right thing or the baffle is not always evident.
-
Part number 000 500 4093.
Are we sure it is not 000 500 6093?
Unable to locate 000 500 4093 anywhere, but the 6093 version is only $72.00 at Parts Geek if it fits and ACM is not a junk brand.
No luck at all using the Bosch number.
Specific original application might help.
-
Part number has indeed gone dead, not surprising after 30 years or so. Try by application. It's from a MB 380SL 380SLC 280CE 450SL 450SLC 450SEL 190D 190E 280C 240D 300CD 300SD 300TD. Alternate part numbers are 0005006093, 0005004893, 0005004693, 000 500 60 93, 000 500 48 93, 000 500 46 93, MB3115102, 8EW009144701, 0130701229.
The one I got looked like this:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/203178498080
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-WQW8xND/0/O/i-WQW8xND.jpg)
-
I bought one ;ast year and put it in the car without much difficulty and the thermo switch is easy to find on Amazon