Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Classifieds Forums => eBay - Craigslist Ads - Other Listings => Topic started by: BDA on Wednesday,December 30, 2020, 05:23:21 PM
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There's a really pretty JPS for sale on BaT. It should go for a lot! https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-lotus-europa-twin-cam-jps/
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Listed in the Lotus Europa Central registry. Looks like three prior owners and has been sitting for some time. 12 k Miles on clock since 2009...sold for 20k in 2007. Seems not much was done as same issues with cosmetics, doors, seats are mentioned.
Dealer advert...https://www.ambassadorautomobileco.com/used-vehicle-1973-lotus-europa-jps-edition-c-86.htm
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They apparently did all the usual stuff for a car that was sitting up, replaced fluids, hoses, rebuilt carbs, etc.
It doesn't appear to have been restored because of the light rust on the transfer tubes, suspension, etc. The dash isn't that bad for an original dash so I'm thinking it's spent nearly all it's life indoors.
One of the radius arms got bent somehow but there doesn't appear to be any collateral fiberglass damage. It would be interesting to know how that happened.
The dash and radius arm aside (those are pretty big jobs to replace but I think they can be done when it's convenient. It's a really nice car.
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With any luck, there won't be any of the typical BAT negative Europa redundancies. They just seem to crawl out of the woodwork when a Europa comes up for auction.
1.) The first thing I'd do is replace those Strombergs with Webers.
2.) I had one but it burst into flames.
3.) Make sure you fit.
4.) Always wanted one since I was a kid but then....(fill in the blank).
5.) My friend (or neighbor) had one and....(fill in the blank).
And most of the negativity generally comes from people who have no intention of bidding. I have no problem with experts of any marque pointing out potential flaws that might need fixing, but telling the prospective owner what wheels to put on, what color to paint it, or what modifications to make and so on. Maybe it's just me but I don't believe in telling buyers how to spend "their" money.
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One of the radius arms got bent somehow but there doesn't appear to be any collateral fiberglass damage. It would be interesting to know how that happened.
:I-agree: Damage very clear on photo's 179 and 181 - these are quite substantial fabrications so what ever bent that was of some significance. :confused:
Somebody will post the cause I'm sure.
Looks a really good car for a base line - I wish they turned up like this more often in the UK.
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I’m guessing It should sell in the $40K range, despite the bent radius arms (which aren’t hard to replace and I would do right away if it was my car). I’m guessing the doors droop as the replacement “hinges” are included in the deal.
Who ever buys this will have an “investment car” for the future.
This Europa is “local” but I’ve never seen it before. Always amazed at what is stashed in peoples garages and barns. I do wonder what the “seller” bought it for as it wasn’t running when he bought it (no gas in it).
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The radius arm damage is classic lift damage. As has been seen, you can sometimes get away with lifting on the radius arm very close to the uprights but not there. It's an instant fold. It seems foolish to me to try and sell the car with such obvious damage.
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I’m guessing It should sell in the $40K range, despite the bent radius arms (which aren’t hard to replace and I would do right away if it was my car). I’m guessing the doors droop as the replacement “hinges” are included in the deal.
Who ever buys this will have an “investment car” for the future.
This Europa is “local” but I’ve never seen it before. Always amazed at what is stashed in peoples garages and barns. I do wonder what the “seller” bought it for as it wasn’t running when he bought it (no gas in it).
Glen, I really hope you are right about the price range of around 40k. Yes, there are some normal issues for a car that has been sitting for so long...as the new owner, you would most likely go through a priority (safety) list first and then deal with the other items as the budget permits.
Getting back to the 40k...
To bring this one lets say to level 1-2 concours condition and knowing all the parts are there already and not counting a major overhaul to the engine, trans or running gear.
Dash, Upholstery, rubber trim, carpets, seat belts, bushings, bearings, under body etc...
I could envision dumping another 5-10 k easy into it, with my own labor. Add the existing radius and door pins and this would tend qualify her as a frame off project.
Since this is a dealer, and a flip...
I'm afraid it will not fetch past 28-30 on a good day..
I hope I'm wrong...
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Concours grade 1? Add a zero to your figures: 50 to 100k. As the car left the assembly line would be a solid 3.
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Concours grade 1? Add a zero to your figures: 50 to 100k. As the car left the assembly line would be a solid 3.
jbcollier...Yes, my point exactly...double the 40k price when all is done.
That's why I don't think (at least to me) it' worth more than 25-28...
Anyway...good luck to the lucky bidder & you have a Happy New year!
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Lou, in normal times your price range is spot on. I’ve been watching BAT sales since the pandemic started and selling prices are way beyond what I would have imagined. As long as the stock market keeps going up people are feeling rich. And all those rich guys have a lot of time on their hands “working from home”. Seems everyone is buying the car they always wanted when they were younger.
If your thinking about selling your car now is the time to do it. 4 months from now may be too late for this cycle.
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I claim no ability to accurately price any car much less a Europa but you may be right, Certified. The price of this JPS just turned $15,000 and there are still almost six days left on the auction.
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Well, with this https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1957-bmw-isetta-300/ sitting at $16K the JPS project ought to hit at least $30K.
Then there is the $200+K Porsche 356, clearly the BAT cars are often not sold for their actual value as automobiles but some nebulous lust based on bragging rights and perceived future potential profit.
I note that several of the cars are repeat sales, some for the third time.
I enjoyed BAT a LOT more back when they actually sold neat project cars, now it's really BAB, Bring A Brinks (Armored truck full of cash).
Unlike so many BAT buyers I intend to actually drive my cars.
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:I-agree: Well said! I do like the site better than other auction sites because it keeps a record of prices as well as all the pictures so it makes a relatively decent data point to the value of a similar car.
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The best thing is the knowledgeable comments.
The worst are those by people who don't have a clue.
Check this auction out:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-vespa-vbb-150/
It's a classic Viet bodge and the seller, and BAT, are in complete denial.
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As you say, the best thing is knowledgeable comments!
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With the exception of an occasional outlier, BAT prices are fairly close to Hagerty price values which are non-biased and based 100% on actual sales and auction wins not speculation or asking prices. Hagerty currently values a #1 Porsche 356A Roadster at $199,000 down from $220,000 a year ago. It values a #3 condition BMW Isetta at $23,300 and its lowest #4 at $15,300 which is also way down over values from 2 years ago $27,500 and $20,000 respectively.
Hagerty shows an upward trend for the Europa Twin Cam with $41,000 for a #1 (Concours) condition car (similar to what Certified got for his #1) and $28,700 for a #2 (Excellent) condition. Add 10% for Special, 10% for 5 speed, and 10% JPS. Doing the math, the 1974 Special/ 5 Speed that sold last week on BAT ($33,5000) was a #2 car and matches what Hagerty said it was worth. Hagerty values a #3 (Good) conditions car at $17,000 and a #4 (Fair) at $11,200. If you go back and compare BAT Europa sales car by car, you will find most of those number will match. The problem is when sellers try to pass their cars off as one condition higher than they should be: a #3 Good car for a #2 (Excellent) asking-price or an Excellent #2 being marketed as a #1 Concours (better than new). Very few cars are true #1 (Concours).
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the problem i have with that grading system (#1 through #5) is that rarely any one car is exactly a #1, #2, and so on, example. They always seem to fall inbetween those numbers and thus the varying degree of monetary value associated. When you say owners "bump" their value opinion up a notch, has a lot to do with not trying to sell your car too short. Owner's value their car higher due to sentimental reasons too.
all in all, a hard process to accomplish, thus the 3rd party independent non-affiliated professional valuation expert opinion is probably more honest and market reflective.
is that a mouthful or what? :))
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All I know for certain is that classic and even many "Blea, never did like those" old cars are now insanely priced.
Just cannot justify the claimed value, even accounting for inflation a $16,000 Isetta is still an Isetta.
One of those cars that Germans actually buried in back yards to hide their shame once their economy and manufacturing base improved enough to produce better cars!*
Glad I grabbed my Europa when I did, not a TC as I prefer the TS, and have turned down surprisingly high offers on it even as a project.
I've sold far too many cars I wish I had back, finally figured out that selling is a bit silly as you then no longer own the car and are unlikely to be able to find another in similar or better condition for less money.
So I no longer sell anything that was not obtained for that purpose.
The Europa does not get sold so long as I am able to drive it, at any price, and probably not even then.
*Yes, they did, I've know more than one old codger who's family did so.
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Micro cars like the Isetta, Messerschmitt, Gogomobil, Peel and many others have had a cult following for years and prices reflect that following. They symbolize a Postwar Era in Europe the way that Chrome and Tailfins reflect Postwar America. Most were destroyed and to collectors they fit in a category few cars do: they show a sense of humor. My father was a car collector and owned some serious 50's American gems, but for whatever reason he also had a BMW Isetta 300 and a Isetta 600. As a little kid that Isetta 300 was my favorite. He died when I was nine years old and I remember that car the most out of all of them. I carry that love today for small sportscars.
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I have always liked the micro-cars as well, and especially dig the Isettas. There have been a few times when I contemplated stewardship of a decently sorted Isetta 300. I think it would be a fun little car.
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We saw a Messerschmitt at a car show a few years back and the guy let my sons sit in it. 8)
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It's a classic Viet bodge and the seller, and BAT, are in complete denial.
Had to LOL at this. Looked at some of the many comments on the auction.
I'm not up on Vespa's, but have run into a couple guys that were coming to Vietnam to buy and import them back to the States , saying it was very profitable. The older (don't see them too much these days)Vespa's there have, let's say, been rode hard and put up wet, to say it nicely.
I've got a relative there who 'makes' parts for 'restoration', and spares, and for manufacturers. Is 'interesting' how they do things with motorcycles and cars.
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It finally went for $32,500. Not as much as I expected since a "regular" TCS recently sold for $33,500.
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I agree. It was interesting that is was completely different set of buyers from the auction last week.
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Very surprised it didn’t sell for more. I think the bent radius arm scared people away. So much for my prediction of reaching close to $40K.
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The car's interior was getting on the worn and tatty side of original. Especially as the exterior had obviously been repainted.