Author Topic: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.  (Read 34545 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Kendo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Jul 2015
  • Location: Northern California
  • Posts: 539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #495 on: Sunday,May 14, 2023, 06:44:54 AM »
Veils and thicker mats are held together with a binder that dissolves with a solvent in polyester resins that isn’t in epoxys. Maybe styrene? So with polyester resins, when you wet them out, the binder dissolves and the veil relaxes into whatever curves are in the part being repaired.

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #496 on: Sunday,May 14, 2023, 08:52:43 AM »
OK, that makes sense.
But, epoxy works fine with fiberglass matting.
I will finish the experiment and contact Fiberglast on Monday.

Offline GavinT

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2016
  • Location: Queensland, Oz
  • Posts: 1,165
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #497 on: Sunday,May 14, 2023, 10:19:38 PM »
The commonly available chopped strand mat as well as glass continuous filament veil both have the polyester compatible binder.

I believe epoxy compatible chopped strand mat without the binder is available but uncommon. The standard boating biaxial 1708 has one layer of CSM and is compatible with epoxy, but that stuff is stitched together so it won't fall apart easily.

I'm not sure about the polyester veils because the nature of this 'fabric' would seem to indicate that a binder wouldn't be necessary for it to hold together. Some manufacturers say it has a binder and others say it hasn't. Perhaps it's available either way?
There's also lots of different types of polyester surfacing veil and as far as I can gather, most usage is for manufacturing large pipes and tanks, so that probably dictates the properties needed.

Here's some info on one product I've used with polyester resin that has no binder.
I thought it was pretty good:

http://www.hegardt.es/en/products/p212-nexus-veil

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #498 on: Sunday,May 14, 2023, 11:41:05 PM »
Experiment got postponed due to other commitments.
But the epoxy has worked fine with the fiberglass mat I have which is nothing special.
I will try to reach the manufacturer in the morning.

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #499 on: Monday,May 15, 2023, 09:49:11 AM »
Spoke with Fibre Glast this morning.
Synthetic Veil IS compatible with epoxy, it has no binders.
The Continuous Veil is not due to binders.
It seems my fiberglas mat is not truly compatible with epoxy as it has binders.
Still works but perhaps not at full strength and only on flat areas.
I am told it would not conform well to curves and corners since the binder will not release.
So it seems I have to find different mat to complete the job.
Or just start using the barrel full of Carbon Fiber remnants I have.
Everything gets painted so the CF will not show.

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #500 on: Monday,May 15, 2023, 10:20:27 AM »
Not everyone is a fan of West Systems but they are very informative.
So I now know that "Stitched mat" is the answer for Epoxy use.

"Can WEST SYSTEM® Epoxy be used to wet out chopped strand mat?
The answer is yes. The fiberglass strand in mat wets out with epoxy, but the binder holding things together does not dissolve. (It does get put into suspension and is sealed in the cured epoxy.)
This undissolved binder causes the wet-out mat to remain a bit stiff compared to wet-out with a styrene-based resin.
For gently curving or flat projects like cabin soles or plywood decks, mat and epoxy should work fine. The fabric does not wet out perfectly clear with epoxy.
Wet-out clarity of mat with epoxy varies somewhat with different suppliers, but none of them wet out as clear as a good 4 oz or 6 oz fiberglass cloth.

Stitched chopped strand mat
There are chopped strand mats produced without a binder that work extremely well with epoxy. These products are referred to as stitched mats.
The randomly oriented strands are held together with light stitching, which runs parallel to the length of the roll and is spaced about 3/16″ to 1/4″ apart over the width of the roll.
The stitching eliminates the need for binders.
These products tend to wet out a bit faster with epoxy and become more flexible on average than generic chopped strand mats.

These stitched mats are suitable for use above and below the waterline for marine applications. Roll mat, the type held together with a binder (not stitched), is used by some of our customers for new construction and repair for below water applications, but we have had some reservations on this if the boat stays in the water."

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #501 on: Monday,May 15, 2023, 01:46:54 PM »
Stitch Mat is not so readily available as the regular product.
I did find a US source but they are not really geared for small volume retail.
I do have a four yard sample of 1.5 coming from them.
Stitch may be more pliable than regular binder mat.
As always I will post results.

https://skaps.com

Offline GavinT

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2016
  • Location: Queensland, Oz
  • Posts: 1,165
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #502 on: Monday,May 15, 2023, 08:29:30 PM »

I did find a US source but they are not really geared for small volume retail.
I do have a four yard sample of 1.5 coming from them.


Score!
Four yards is a pretty generous sample . . and probably enough to do at least three cars worth of smaller repairs.

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #503 on: Monday,May 15, 2023, 10:24:40 PM »
Well, I did suggest they contact Fiber Glast to offer their Stitch Mat as Fiber Glast has none and could not even suggest a supplier.
What I am getting is a remnant, they normally sell by the pound.
I am paying $hipping so not actually free.

Offline GavinT

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2016
  • Location: Queensland, Oz
  • Posts: 1,165
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #504 on: Wednesday,May 17, 2023, 06:29:02 AM »
Well, there ya go . . Fiber Glast don't have a market for it.

I'd be interested in your findings with the stitched CSM.
The commonly used method is to tear off pieces of CSM when preparing to patch a repair. The torn pieces tend to blend in more smoothly than cutting pieces with scissors.

I'm wondering if tearing still works with the stitched material. Specifically, I'm curious to hear if the stitching will break away easily.

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #505 on: Tuesday,May 23, 2023, 06:10:24 PM »
Still waiting for the stitched mat.

Found a working link to the gallery but disappointed it is so few pages.
Debating removing the "Warts" and wanted to see what others had done to relocate turn signals.
Seems to be a rare modification.
Reluctance based on expectation that resale value may be negatively affected when the day comes I am too feeble to drive it anymore.
But as it is already fairly modified mechanically perhaps a moot concern?

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #506 on: Saturday,May 27, 2023, 09:36:37 PM »
Could not stand looking at all the white Bondo® "Repairs" running across my engine cover any longer so ground them all out.
About to do them over with glass and resin.

Offline dakazman

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2016
  • Location: Florida
  • Posts: 3,938
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #507 on: Sunday,May 28, 2023, 05:16:39 AM »
  Hi Richard,
  Thanks for posting this question but first, I agree and understand your need to see what is leaking below.
  Here is where and how I went about 1/2 the job. The PO removed and did a fast cover up that I paid for later on. 
   It took me awhile to find these pics but enjoyed going through my build. I couldn’t believe it was that long ago almost going to beginning of my documented build. Not exactly the missing years before internet. 😂
 Hope this helps:
  http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=2058.30
Dakazman

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #508 on: Tuesday,May 30, 2023, 07:21:07 PM »
Post above meant for another thread?

I've finally got enough "Repair" done to my engine cover to see about fixing the highs and lows.
Lots of warpage at the rear, high under the license plate and low around it, I'm guessing an effect of sun and heat.
Top surface is a little better.
'Glass resin and fibers are a bit hard to sand flat or to the curve, so I think I will try a thin layer of 'Glass and Microspheres.
Still avoiding Bondo®.

Offline Richard48Y

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Oct 2020
  • Location: No. Nevada
  • Posts: 1,539
Re: The revival of 650143R, 1970 with TS.
« Reply #509 on: Wednesday,May 31, 2023, 01:08:59 PM »
Resin and microspheres is working very well.
But I am using up the micro quickly.