Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Richard48Y on Saturday,October 31, 2020, 07:07:17 PM
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The original eBay listing text.
No. 650143R
1971 Lotus Europa S2.
I have owned this car for 23 years, drove it some when I first bought it, then it has sat in my garage for close to twenty years.
Its time for someone else to enjoy it. It ran fine years ago, however I have not attempted to start it.
Probably be a good idea to go through the engine before it was run very much.
The engine has I guess what they call the Gordini mods and more. The previous owner is a friend of mine and he is the one who built it.
He used it for Autocrossing and some hillclimbs. I know it had some porting work done, high compression pistons and a hot cam. I built the header.
The cam comes on strong at about 3-3500 rpm and revs to 8000+.
The front suspension has been rebuilt and I installed new Spax adjustable shocks on all four corners. So this car does have some goodies I haven't seen on other Europas, note the small steering wheel.
The interior is typical fifty year old english car, needs some work.
I have worked on fixing stress crack fractures in the glass body but there are still some left to do.
All the lights, brackets and hardware are still there, please note in the pictures.
There is also parts to do a rear disc conversion included."
I originally lost out on my bid at the lost possible moment.
Then the buyer flaked out when it came to shipping.
When 650143R was re-listed with a buy it now that matched my earlier high bid I jumped on it.
Today I can prove I did not buy this car to "Flip" it, I just turned down $9,000.00 for it as it sits. :o
I guess I can stop worrying that I might have paid too much? ;)
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Looking forward to hearing and seeing about your progress with your new baby!
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After sitting for so many years the veneer of my dash is pretty poor.
Original wood grain does not have a lot of figure to it.
There is a store in Reno which sells several types of veneer in thin sheets for re-laminating.
I am confident I can do this myself so long as I can find a good enough glue.
Instead of the too shiny and overly thick* gloss finish I prefer a thin Matt "oil finish" like a gun stock.
I've seen reference to decal sets for the dash, I will need those.
* I hate it when the thick clear varnish cracks and peels, often taking the veneer away with it.
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I’m pretty sure r.d. enterprises sells the dash labels. I would expect Dave Bean sells them too.
The clear finish cracks because moisture gets behind it and the veneer. You can get polyurethane varnish in different finishes so you should be able to get matte or satin.
(All together now!) make sure you finish all the edges including gauge and bolt holes and the back so moisture in your plywood and veneer won’t be a problem.
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(All together now!) make sure you finish all the edges including gauge and bolt holes and the back so moisture in your plywood and veneer won’t be a problem.
At last. Something normal in these strange times! ;)
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Lotus Supplies in the UK have the dashboard decal set https://www.lotus-supplies.com/parts/interiors/dashboard/dashboard-decal-set/ (https://www.lotus-supplies.com/parts/interiors/dashboard/dashboard-decal-set/)
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Whew, glad to have it off the truck and on to solid ground again!
Was a bit more difficult than expected.
Pics and details later.
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Okay. some possibly useful pics.
On the ground and in the shop at last.
Dash is poor. :(
Tricky ignition I need to look up instructions for, no points!
Weber 40's. :)
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Pretty standard aftermarket ignition with an optical trigger. I think they still make them.
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Starting a note book.
Crane ignition, SPAX shocks, Weber jets, etc.
I suspect I will want to change out these springs as they seem very stiff*.
These old 185/60 tires barely clear the body.
I've pulled the plugs and will be putting some Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders tonight.
Plugs I pulled are very even in color, dark but not sooty at all.
Almost forgot to post the disc rotors I got with it.
I also have new Suzuki GT calipers but not sure I will use them.
Want to fit dual MC'$ with an adjustable bias bar, no booster.
*"Any suspension will work if you don't let it". ::)
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Ah, another issue.
I have the rear luggage box but it cannot be used with the current exhaust.
Seller was very proud of the "Equal length" system that he fabricated.
So I have to choose. Leave the box out, modify the box, make a new box?
Or get another header exhaust?
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I believe that Crane bought the Alison ignition operation.
I would never say that it will happen to all of them but my Alison packed it in while I was in the left lane on the highway during rush hour. Mine was installed in 1980 so I expect the light was incandescent and it just gave out. I suppose they use LEDs now which I would expect are more reliable; regardless, I decided to get away from optical ignitions. I replaced my Alison with a Pertronix which has been great so far. I thought you might be interested in my experience.
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Found out what the rear rotors are from, Suzuki - Swift (1989) - Rear.
Makes sense since that matches the calipers he intended to use.
If I do not go to Wilwood I may try to use some aluminum VW units I have.
The Swift parts are iron.
I will look into the tech used for my ignition.
Going into the shop tonight to make note of part numbers since Crane had several versions.
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Richard, Do you need the luggage box? It seems to me that air circulation in the engine bay is better without the box.
Sandy
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Since I intend to actually drive this car I do want a rear box.
Just had another question pop up.
Is there a reasonable means to drive the oil pump without having to crank the engine?
Been sitting a long time and has a remote oil filter.
Putting MMO down the cylinders but that will not pre-lube the cam and other components.
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I personally would pull the plugs and spin her over with the starter. Change the oil and filter first.
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Just had another question pop up.
Is there a reasonable means to drive the oil pump without having to crank the engine?
Nope.
Crank drives the cam which drives the oil pump shaft.
You could remove the oil pump drive gear from the cam, but only after removing the head - probably not what you want.
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I used the seafome in the cylinders then I removed the oil pressure light switch made an adapter and pushed oil in at about 20 psi on the gauge. After about 30 liters same 5 liters over and over filtering between cycles. Then cranked with the plugs out. Seemed to work it starts great reasonable pressure after not running for 23 years
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MMO is in.
I have a remote oil filter so may be able to rig up an external pump?
Need some decent volume, a fuel pump would be too small.
More 'Net searching!
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Go to your local pharmacy and ask for a very large syringe -- vets use them for giving medicine to large animals. Tell them why or your neighbours will be giving you the strangest looks. Disconnect the lines from the remote oil filter and push oil through both hoses. One way will prime the pump, the other will fill the oil ways. Now remove the plugs and spin it over on the starter (AFTER DISABLING THE IGNITION).
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Break my heart, the the tart won't start!
Alllllmost, but not quite.
A little help and I would probably have it running now.
By myself, not yet. :(
Even after I treated her to 110 octane leaded without distilled corn syrup additive.
It was the only decent fuel I could find at short notice.
I really want to do a warm compression check.
This has been the most expensive temporary oil change I have ever done at about $40.00
Six quarts of oil, filter, bottle of ZDDP additive.
I bought a Sump Gun and used it to push oil into the remote filter lines then reattached them.
Of course I also filled the new oil filter before putting it on.
My shopping list is begun.
Choke cable and new air filters.
Yes, K&N do get petrified after sitting a couple of decades.
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Petty progress is still better than none.
Today I ordered two KNN-E-3341 K&N air filters from Summit Racing.
Then a pair of DCOE gasket sets and dash decals from Dave Bean.
Spending money is always progress, right?
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Spending money is always progress, right?
Unfortunately, it is usually a critical first step!
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Unable to do much with the Europa at the moment as I have to reassemble the SBC 350 for my truck, and some quick home repairs before Winter arrives on Sunday.
But I have been able to make some observations. No evidence of ever having been hit but I do see what appear to be a couple of small patches.
Some competition history so probably not a total surprise.
What is a real surprise is how VERY thin some areas of the body are.
The flat area of the door sill bottom to where it turns up for the seal appears be about one single ply thick! No wonder I found a crack there.
So it now looks like this will be a body off job after all, so that I may add a little less lightness to a few places. :o
I also want to add a second fuel tank and it seems that will also require removing the body.
Still hope to do a warm compression check before I do any dismantling.
New Weber gaskets should be here tomorrow so that I may do a quick cleaning.
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Disappointed the gaskets have not shown up.
I did get the Europa set up on dollies so that I may easily move it around on my own.
This also raised it just a bit for better access as I don't have to lean over as far.
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Sanding (and everything, really) is a long process. Your gaskets will arrive in plenty of time!
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I also want to add a second fuel tank and it seems that will also require removing the body.
I would try driving around some first before committing to the extra work and weight of lugging around another 50 plus pounds of fuel. They get such good mileage due to the low weight that 8 gallons goes a long way even when you are hot rodding around.
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My nearest major highway for a long trip is Hwy. 50.
AKA, The loneliest road in America!
When you get into the very rural area's gas prices get to be an extra dollar a gallon.
Just because I have two tanks should not require that I fill both of them when not travelling.
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Spent most of the day cursing a foot of new snow and assembling the SBC 350 for my truck. The C30 flat-bed I was supposed to use for fetching the Europa.
I did find my small mirror on an extension.
So, block casting appears to be 2565520.81
Engine numbers of 821-02 and 7138.
Assuming I am reading them correctly in the mirror. ;)
I bet somewhere here these numbers will reveal the stock displacement.
Next time I get into the workshop I will try to compare to see if my engine block is original to my car.
Meant to take a pic of my brake MC, one line in, one line out, REALLY?!
That has to be upgraded, this is not a concourse build.
I do not see a booster anywhere either. Not that I expect it could possibly work with twin Webers and no vacuum.
Want/need dual MC's with a bias bar but the Banks unit is crazy expensive.
Even worse being on the wrong side of the exchange rate.
I have a mill, lathe, and welders.
As much as I now prefer to buy when possible to conserve precious time, I think I may have to make my own setup.
Also found some odd chunks of open cell (Insulating type?) Foam glued onto the inside area behind the LH headlamp. Thinking this may have been used as a backing for a repair. Have to remove the current primer to see what I truly have.
Also appears the PO may have deleted front corner markers.
I like a clean body as much as anyone but a very small and low light blue car is not exactly glaringly obvious to soccer mom's.
So I expect to restore them. Perhaps I can find a flush fit set?
Another reason to pull the body. :(
Also need to take a good look at some interior details as apparently there is supposed to be some sort of vent system above or below the rear window?
Speaking of rear windows, I have an original but it is heavily tinted.
Not certain if it is the glass of something that was applied and might be removed.
More glass observations, I notice that the lower corners of my original windshield are um, warped.
They clearly curve the wrong way to be consistent!
Perhaps the mold was damaged at the time, but there are two molds for safety glass so both would have to be damaged the same.
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Lockheed makes a replacement to the original Girling boosters if you want. A lot of people like using a smaller master cylinder without a booster. Of course, a dual M/C setup gives you a lot more flexibility. I would think that if you have some machine tools and can weld, you should be able to make your own. There is at least one set of plans for a tandem setup here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13bJcEUU9KWMnbB8FJ95qiq_rk6qD-uf4
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Engine numbers of 821-02 and 7138.
The 821 likely indicates the original engine block.
If yours is a crossflow, then they may have used the original block and converted to the crossflow head.
Meant to take a pic of my brake MC, one line in, one line out, REALLY?!
Type 46 and 54's originally came with a single line system.
I think it was the US regulations that instigated changes to the dual line brakes.
I presumed all Type 65's came with that tandem system?
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Very interesting link.
There is a notice that files are not going to be saved after 30 days in the near future?
I cannot seem to save them to my MAC for later use.
With IR Webers I really have no choice but to upgrade.
Any IR Weber intake will have virtually no vacuum to run a booster unless modified to cross-connect the runners. But that also impairs the IR performance.
My engine is a cross-flow.
I am told it also has silly high compression and a wild cam.
I think in the 90's we were still able to buy the good leaded gasoline.
Now I expect to run a mix of 91"Supreme" ::) and 100LL Avgas.
Even when real fuel was available I used to do this for a crazy FIAT 850 Spyder I had as it was a lot cheaper than race gas.
EDIT: Found the download icon, putting those drawings into a folder now.
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Only federal cars had dual circuit brakes. All early cars and all Euro cars had single circuit brakes.
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Only federal cars had dual circuit brakes. All early cars and all Euro cars had single circuit brakes.
Umm, thought that my car must be Fed. as it is type 65? ???
0143, so early 71 actually made in '70? :confused:
I know, I need to send off for a heritage certificate.
MC is not seized, anyone looking for this type to rebuild?
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Looks like the engine is not an original numbers match.
Also looks like I will be doing a cold compression test as I have not been able to get it to start.
Found out where my Weber rebuild gaskets are! Thanks to the miracle of modern computational machines a vendor may easily direct your shipment to the address you had twenty years ago.
Updating your address at the time the order is placed will make no difference as the shipping department will send to the first address that comes up.
So, a 130 mile round trip later in the week to fetch them.
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At least you found them!
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Today I finally located the rear bulkhead cabin vents!
Looked several times and could not see them, resorted to Braille and there they were.
Right above the rear window.
Going to have to remove the remains of the headliner before doing any more interior exploration, it has dried to a yellow grit that gets everywhere.
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Minor find among the parts.
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Cold compression results left me cold.
1. 90 PSI.
2. 90 PSI.
3. 90 PSI.
4. 55 PSI.
Sat a long time but indoors.
Air filters and boot lid were not removed.
So the only moisture should have been condensation if the garage was unheated.
After twenty-two years it seems that may have been enough. :(
Looks like I get to master the intricacies of the Renault/Gordini.
Car is a bigger project than I had hoped so for now it's just in parts gather mode.
Really hoping I get to reuse the pistons as it seems the high performance variety are NLA.
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Cold compression tests aren’t really good for anything other than a very basic idea of what’s going on, but your #4 cylinder looks like a problem. I assume those are for a dry test. Squirting a little oil in each cylinder would help you at least get an idea where your problem is. Another option is a leak down test which could give you more specific indication where it’s leaking.
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Get it running if you can. No engine sat that long will have a good cold compression reading.
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"Wet" test brought #4 up by 15 PSI.
So maybe a sticky valve, but I expect stuck rings.
When I drained the oil I thought I saw some very thin fluid just when it started to drain.
My guess is that it was water from condensation, just a small amount, but any is bad. :(
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I think JB is right. Try to get it running and then do a warm compression test and if you can, a leak down test. That should give you a better idea of the condition of your top end.
I’m curious what the wet compression numbers were for #1 - #3. Did they go up 15 psi too?
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Have to admit I did not do 1-3 wet as they were so very even.
Only #4 was lower and even with a 15 PSI increase it is still low.
Hope to have more time over the weekend.
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My thought is that not only is the pressure number from a compression test important but also the difference between the cylinders is important - 10% or less is the difference we want.
90 psi is not generally a good compression test number but since you have a hot motor, which likely has a cam with a lot of overlap, that might be better than it appears. That’s why a leak down test is a very good test because it can not only tell how well your cylinder seals but also where there is leakage.
The oil in a compression test helps show if the leakage is mainly through the rings. If the compression pressure is much higher after adding oil, it indicates that the rings are worn. If you get a similar increase in pressure in your other cylinders, then I think you can assume that all your rings are in similar shape and your leakage is somewhere else - head gasket or valves.
Having said all that, I think JB is right. If you can get it running and warm it up, the results of your compression and leak down tests will be more useful.
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I have an old SUN leak-down tester.
Nice BIG gauge with about an 8" face.
So easy to read, just need time to do it.
Currently trying to complete assembly and run-in of a SBC.
I did put some PB Blaster oil into the cylinders in the hope of loosening any stuck rings.
I had used Marvel Mystery Oil before first cranking it over.
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I've had that issue on other old vehicles and before spending money, this is what I did that worked. Drop the oil. Pour a cup or more diesel fuel down the spark plug hole of the weak cylinder. Study what comes out the drain plug. I really like the paper filter funnels that auto paint suppliers give out. Clamp the fuel line with a vice grip and remove all the spark plugs. spin the engine over a few times. put it back together and do another compression test. The fuel oil will commonly un-stick a stuck ring. The ring is usually stuck in the groove with just some dried fuel or oil gunk and the solvent action washes it out.
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This is essentially what I did decades ago to unstick a Jaguar XK120 that had sat for thirty years, outdoors.
Got it to run and drove it around the block sans brakes.
Really just need time to pursue the work.
Very busy at the moment trying to get my truck back in operation and fulfilling conditions to obtain a home loan.
Home loan is partially to let me have a shop at home, and hopefully fund completion of at least one of my dozen cars.
Not the Lotus, another that I expect to resell at a profit. That sale might fund the Lotus.
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That's a nice project Rich,
That wiper switch is not original so if you get a new dash you may want to find an original. RD does have the stencils.
many members here have built up there own dash and surfaced it with a veneer of their choosing.
The headers are not store bought cheaply and are available for approximately 1,000 with shipping. do you really want a luggage rack?
There is no way to prime the oil without cranking without hooking up external pressure ports.
Dakazman
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I have made minor progress.
I have the dash decals and bought a nice rear bumper from another member.
Still trying to decide, change exhau$t or modify the luggage box I have?
Also bought a Renault shop manual that may provide some hints on the engine.
Hope to pull a wheel tonight so that I may look up the brand and get one more as a spare.
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Noticed the vin tag on the door last night.
Built 3/70, so the boat must have been really slow for this to be a '71 car as titled. :)
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Another thread reminds me to ask, availability of the all red tail lamp lenses?
My Red/Orange appear nearly new but I prefer all red.
Have one that is OK, need a mate for it or a complete pair.
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Richard, My car was built in January of '70 but is titled as a '71. I think that dealers sold them as new cars in the year that they were sold, not built.
Sandy
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Still learning.
0143R, so the 143rd type 65 made, correct?
With around 3,000+ 65's made I believe that would make this a pretty early example.
As confirmed by the single circuit brake master.
Which manual am I looking for to get details on the engine with TS/Gordini cross-flow head?
Just received one I found on feeBay but it is not correct as it is for an SOHC Fuego engine.
I thought the TS heads came on Fuego but that appears incorrect.
I think I have given up on getting the engine running prior to restoration.
I do not like the uneven sound it has when cranking over.
It leads me to suspect a rust spot in the cylinder.
I was really hoping to be able to re-use the current pistons.
Have to hope any pitting is minimal and the pistons have not been damaged.
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There should be somethig about weeks in there as well. Maybe the 3rd car of the 14th week?
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I thought it would translate as Type 65 = S2 Renault power, No. 0143, R=Federal.
All but the chassis number appear to be common to all Type 65 production?
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About to quit my "Job" and go into car builds and restoration full time.
Probably not my smartest move but I feel that I am running very short on time to accomplish MY own goals.
Seeing too many threads on this and other forums, "Bob was a great guy and we will miss him, I'm helping his widow* to sell his unfinished XYZ project"!
Have a tentative closing date on the home equity loan later this month.
With that I should be able to take at least a year to do what I want for a change.
Have to be careful as it's much easier to spend than to earn, particularly with the CCP virus cramping everything up.
Trying to decide which car to restore first.
Lotus is most recently acquired so should go last, but in some ways is also the simplest to do.
So breaking it down to three groups what should I reasonably expect to spend for each?
This is to be a nice Driver/Hill-Climb and possible track-day car.
Not concourse, not chasing the bits of trim and badging that have gone astray.
1. Body and interior. Doing mostly my own work.
2. Chassis and running gear. Doing mostly my own work.
A. Front suspension rebuilt shortly before car went into its slumber.
B. I have some NOS ex-Suzuki Turbo car parts for a rear disc conversion.
3. Engine, Renault with "Gordini" cross-flow head. Doing mostly my own work.
A. Current configuration is stated to be nearly full-on racer with 11-1+ compression and 8K RPM capable cam.
Twin DCOE's and hand-built headers.
B. I am assured that the transmission is fine except that the axle seals will leak.
If I go after the Lotus rebuild my goal would be to have it a driver but possibly not fully painted, by next August.
* Single, never married, unless finished my cars would be pretty worthless out here in the farmland sticks where there is no market for "Project" import cars.
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HI:
"About to quit my "Job" and go into car builds and restoration full time."
I did something like that (in my early 40's) just it wasn't to do car builds.
I went from a hi pay ,hi stress job to teaching at a college.
Now retired(69) and glad I made the move.
Good luck on the Lotus(s) and life in general.
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Single and never married would certainly make your decision easier. Make sure your money will be able to outlast you and you are prepared for the unexpected. On top of that, have a backup plan. Following your dreams is what everybody wants but make sure it does not turn into a nightmare!
I think I can say we are all pulling for you! Good luck!
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Poking around the Lotus last night I took a few pics.
For a car that sat inside the interior is still pretty sad.
Need to learn what is incorrect or missing so that I may seek replacements.
Hmm, pics do not show during Edit. OK, the badge is here as I am happy to have it.
The last pic of my rear suspension is a question. Is the limiting strap stock or something the Hill-Climb racer added?
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Yep, there is a lot of work to be done. I have no idea what that strap is for. What is it connected to on the upper end?
Are you planning on starting a body-off or is it going to be a rolling restoration?
Good luck!
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Unfortunately it seems body-off will actually be simpler in the long run.
The Europa may be the worst possible car for me to have bought in some ways as I have back issues that make it fairly difficult to work on with such limited access and sitting so low.
Even with the body off I intend to set the chassis on stands so that I may do a lot of work while sitting down, or at least not having to stoop.
Surprisingly I do not have a lot of trouble getting in or out of it.
The straps on the rear are there to limit axle droop while flying up mountain roads.
Car is equipped with adjustable coil-over shocks.
The straps seem an obvious good idea so I thought they might be a stock item.
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Just as I feared and expected.
No. 4 low compression is due to bad rings.
Sitting so long it probably acquired some condensation in the cylinder.
Apparently Montana is not so dry a state as I always thought it to be.
I was not pleased when the seller told me, "I put a hot battery in and it cranked right over". :headbanger:
I always treat the cylinders of any car that has sat to some Marvel Mystery Oil for at least twenty-four hours before trying to turn it over.
I hope it is just stuck rings but fear pitting in the cylinder.
Fearing piston damage even more.
I determined this using my antique (All the best tools are antique!) ;) SUN leak-down tester.
50% leakage. No air coming out of the Weber, none from the exhaust, remove the oil fill cap, hisssssss.
I did not test the other cylinders, I already know I have to rebuild it.
So there is my punishment for commenting on the Foose build. :deadhorse:
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Bummer. You might want to take a look at the cylinder with an endoscope first, but at 50% leakage on even a cold engine, you're right. A build is in your future.
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I do have a Bore-Scope with camera that might let me get something of a look but it loses focus unless right next to the area being observed. With the deep reach needed for the TS head I doubt I could get any focus.
For now I am only trying to acquire missing components while leaving the car intact.
I have too many others scattered about in pieces.
When my home loan finally comes through I will be putting up a building large tent* and concrete floor to work in at home.
Not my ideal but I look forward to not having to drive into town in order to work on my cars.
*Modern Hi-Tech type that will laster longer than I will.
MUCH less expense and hassle than any building.
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Loan is signed, funds in my account Tuesday!
Spending more than I should for the new shop build, but rent has been taking too much of my funding and the loan payments will be less.
With the new shop up I get to be genuinely "Retired" at last.
Hoping for about fifty - sixty hours a week building cars. ;)
First priority has to be building a Kit Car I will sell, need to produce more income than SS provides.
Second is to put something together as a daily driver. Alfa Spider or Spitfire, hard to decide which should go first.
Lotus has to be a third part-time project as it is never to be sold.
Been looking at at it, from a mechanical view it is hardly more complex than the Spitfire.
But the body, oh boy, the body! Despite no apparent significant past damage the body looks to be more than 50% of the work.
All emblems and lettering have been removed, I feel no compulsion to replace them.
Light blue is one of the easier colors to make look good and I like it so that is what it will be.
The blue also retains the look it had during its minor competition history.
Engine does not scare me. I will be buying the alignment dowels this week.
Do need to fabricate a coupling for the axles so that it remains a roller, if there is demand I may make more than one.
What I probably need to learn most at this point is how to set-up the axle/diff play correctly.
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The body and paint work will likely be the biggest part of your build - assuming you don’t have serious electrical issues. As you noted, the car is very simple.
If you do your own paint, that will save A LOT of money.
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Yes, must do my own paint as shop prices are just nuts now.
If the CCP Virus has not put a stop to it there used to be a paint booth available for rent not too far away.
Just what I need for the final spray.
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If you have access to a paint booth, that makes a big difference!
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Minor progress being better than none, I bought a Soda Blaster.
Need to get down to bare 'Glass and days of sanding is just out of the question.
I've heard many conflicting reports on using Soda, but this IS for Fiberglass so many of the claimed issues will not apply.
With the new shop up I will be working from home and feel that Soda will be less noticeable to the Neighbors/County than sand would have been.
Unfortunate that I will not get to use it for a couple of months.
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I've heard some negative things about soda blasting a fiberglass body. You might want to do a search on this forum or ask around before you go that route.
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Sadly the 'Net seems to be a land of "Experts" who have no first hand experience.
Too much indirect rumor based on third (or fifty!) hand accounts.
So the only way to know for certain is to do my own experiments.
Since Soda is used commercially I expect that a lot of the reported issues come down to proper final prep, washing, applying sealer, etc.
I will do my research and experiment before going over the entire car.
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Old 'Vette's are pretty high end these days.
Article on soda blasting for fiberglass that seems a bit more detailed than many are. http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/vemp-1103-soda-blasting#/
Another detailed article, https://www.theblastmasters.com/FAQs.html
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I don’t have any experience with soda blasting or Corvettes.
Here are a few links that comment on soda blasting:
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=497.msg9498#msg9498
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1120.msg11644#msg11644
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=3212.msg32462#msg32462
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1528.msg13858#msg13858
That is not to say it can’t be done. I think I did read about somebody who had a good experience but I can’t find it offhand.
As for the differences between the fiberglass on a Corvette and a Europa, I think Corvette fiberglass is a lot thicker at least. I don’t know about gel coat on a Corvette. I can’t say if that makes a difference when soda blasting but I suspect that they probably require different techniques.
Like I say, it may be the best thing since sliced bread, I only encourage you to do your homework and make an informed decision.
I only hope that whatever you do, you have the results you want.
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From the articles I linked it seems Vett's do not have a gel-coat.
This may be key.
"We recommend a chemical called HoldTight 102, which when used properly will remove all Salts, Chlorides and Contaminates on the metal.
Even though pressure washing with clean water works fine to remove the baking soda residue, we recommend the use of this chemical due to the added benefits. HoldTight 102 will give a window of 48 to 96 hours without flash rusting.
Also when used properly it can increase the adhesion of your coatings by as much a 70%. HoldTight 102 changes the surface tension of the water allowing it to flush out areas that normal pressure washing MAY not get into"
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Let us know what you did and how it worked out for you.
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Hand sanding is simply out of the question for my arthritic arm.
From what I can find the secrets of soda blasting are the same as any other media blasting, control of pressure, distance, grit size.
Too many folk use very high pressure and work too close, no matter what media is used.
I read all the links posted above, if soda is still present after paint the car was never pressure washed! :(
I have several fiberglass cars to build and paint.
So I will have plenty of opportunity to learn the fine arts of soda blasting.
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A dual action orbital sander is your friend.
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"A dual action orbital sander is your friend".
I've used them for years and have to respectfully disagree.
My car has two coats of paint, DA's are hard on body lines and the very thin Lotus clear top layer.
I've chosen the Soda Blast with care.
Another Pro note found, "Fiberglass - Hold Tight 102 and possibly Salt Away and Salt-X. Also Fiberglass Surface Prep #YMA601 by Interlux".
https://holdtight.com/find-a-distributor/
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Tried out the soda blaster today.
Bottom side of the bonnet was flaking black paint, blaster cleaned it very well.
Also did the rear edge. "New" paint came off very quickly, the original is a bit more stubborn.
All cracks or loose fibers are now revealed.
Wish I had begun doing this years ago.
I will use this for the Alfa Spider and probably all of my other cars now.
Glad to learn that my regular supplier of blast cabinet media also sells the HT102 rinse agent.
Went through the first bag too quickly, need to learn to adjust the feed rate.
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Glad it’s working out well for you! I guess the problems others had were technique related. I hope your satisfying results continue! :beerchug:
Pictures?
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I believe the soda blasting industry has matured.
Finally taking delivery of my new workshop tents this week, concrete floor is done too.
Getting a shipping container or maybe a couple of truck boxes for secured storage.
Once the shop is up the real chore will be moving out of the current rented space. :headbanger:
I must complete a custom kit-car build for income before I may concentrate on the Lotus.
To do that efficiently I have to keep the new shop tidy and uncluttered. :o
Which unfortunately means the Lotus roller has to go into the storage tent for a while.
But first I intend to pull the engine/trans and replace them with the fixture I discussed in another thread.
That way the Lotus will be easy to roll back into the workshop when I am ready for it in a few months.
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Even tangent progress is better than none.
Shop tent is finally nearing completion and today I bought a professionally made vacuum machine to assist in laminating dash boards, at a local garage sale.
Only have a few to do, Lotus Europa, Spitfire, GT6, maybe the Jag XJ6 and possibly a Locost.
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Wanting to get something running right away that is not a truck.
I have a VW based Bradly GT with rebuilt engine so decided to work on it a bit today.
Only 5'10" and I do not fit in it!
Even with the poorly designed cheap plastic "Racing seats" removed and sitting directly on the floor I barely fit under the roof.
This is not a small car, the 'Glass body sits on a full length and width VW Beetle pan.
Despite this and other quirks the Bradley's had production totals almost equal to the Europa.
Seems almost comical as I am fine in the Europa once I get in.
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That is funny! Who would think that you would have trouble getting in a car based on a VW bug!?
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Wanting to get something running right away that is not a truck.
I have a VW based Bradly GT with rebuilt engine so decided to work on it a bit today.
Only 5'10" and I do not fit in it!
Even with the poorly designed cheap plastic "Racing seats" removed and sitting directly on the floor I barely fit under the roof.
This is not a small car, the 'Glass body sits on a full length and width VW Beetle pan.
Despite this and other quirks the Bradley's had production totals almost equal to the Europa.
Seems almost comical as I am fine in the Europa once I get in.
Had to look up the Bradley GT and found this https://www.facebook.com/jaylenosgarage/videos/1567212066644424/ (https://www.facebook.com/jaylenosgarage/videos/1567212066644424/). I see your difficulty.
Richard.
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Jay was not sitting in the car properly, deliberate or not.
It is claimed that the original seats reclined enough to let drivers fit under the roof and doors.
For some reason the originals seem to always be missing, and the substitutes fit too upright for use.
I will probably have to cut the floors to lower a set of seats, wondering if the feeBay "Europa" seats might work?
But at $500 that is not a cheap gamble.
I think I will try my Triumph GT6 seats.
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With so much time going to completing and fitting out the new shop I have not been able to get any work done to cars.
Particularly frustrating for the Europa.
When you can do nothing else, take pictures.
So tonight I took several close-up shots of my engine compartment for reference before beginning to remove the head from the TS engine.
Also cut one of my luggage bins to clear the custom exhaust that is currently on the car.
Next I will create a mold for a bubble to clear the exhaust.
Tired of planning, want to begin wrenching!
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Maybe in the meantime you can post some pictures of your shop and of your car you took, Richard.
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Shop is still a work in progress.
Lots of eqipment to be organized but at least the swamp cooler is in.
Eventually I will get the two-post lift installed.
Lotus is under the blue cover.
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Nice!
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That is really cool! I love the space! :beerchug:
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At only 30' x 48' it is a bit small.
Best feature is the shadow-free light during the day.
Worst is that you do lose a little space near the walls due to the shape.
That is mitigated by using that area to store things like extra chassis tubing.
I have a second 30' x 40' still to be erected.
It is supposed to become my dry car storage so that this workshop may remain relatively uncluttered.
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This is a TS/"Gordini" head engine.
Only eight head bolts, and they go through the rocker pedestals, really?
I notice that the rocker to valve stem pads are not really centered.
Appears to me that some shims may be in order to correct that.
Old trick for HP is to replace the spacer springs with aluminum sleeves.
I have a lathe so that would be simple to do.
Seems that for reassembly the manifolds are easier to bolt up to the head than putting the Webers on afterward, correct?
I am making lots of notes.
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Two things I need to check on.
No "Hidden" bolts holding the head on?
I know that on Austin Mini's there is one bolt that can be very difficult to locate when removeing the engine from the transmission. They will separate with it in place, but the transmission gets broken.
So I need to be double sure that the eight bolts on top are all there are.
Looks like the water pump stays on the head too, correct?
I know about locking the cylinders down.
Although I expect to be removing them anyway since I am fairly certain I am going to find corrosion in No. 4.
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You need to rotate the head before removing it. Otherwise the cylinders may stick to the head gasket and lift when you lift the head. So, I would remove the water pump to allow the head to twist.
Just the eight bolts but you also need to remove the exhaust and intake manifolds.
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Not a good day for my Europa.
Finally got the head off to look at why No. 4 had such low compression.
Still do not know for certain as I have to lock down the cylinders before I can turn it over for a clear look. Have to buy some short metric bolts for that.
But I know I have a rust line in No. 3, probably from the twenty years of sitting.
It's not deep, "Might" hone out but that is not the way to hold spec.
Thin oil into No. 4 runs out pretty quickly at the rear of the piston, bad ring?
In any case this is not going to be just a valve job repair.
Better news is that the head does appear to have hade some work done, combustion chamber has had all the sharp edges dressed. The quench area is still present.
Exhaust ports look very oily, seems it was also being run rich.
Have to get it clean to see what sort of porting may have been done.
Wish I had realized the lifters would all fall out.
Now even if the cam is fine I will need new lifters.
I took pics but it is too late to post them tonight.
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Lifters are wide and easily refaced. Apparently they are simply flat with no crown.
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I will put a couple on an oftical comparator for a better look but they do not look flat to me.
More like slightly dished at the center.
That would make the edge the contact to promote rotation.
If the comparator does not work I should be able to measure them with a dial indicator.
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A comparator would be great.
It would be interesting if you could discover whether the original profile was flat or convex.
There's some debate as to the OEM Renault spec.
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Slight centre dishing is wear.
Followers/cams are a weak point in the Renault engines. High revs = high cam/follower wear. I have heard of lots of engines rebuilt, carefully broken in but then enjoyed at high rpm resulting in excessive cam wear.
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I wonder, Titanium Nitride or similar applied to the lifter face?
Nitride the cam lobes?
Pics as promised.
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Head appears OK, Richard . . or at least not shaved within an inch of its life.
What is the inlet valve diameter?
Do the pistons have a slight dome or are they flat in the middle.?
What's the diameter of the pistons? . . any markings?
By the way, you can scratch what I said about discovering the flat or convex nature of the lifters.
If the engine has a modified cam, those will almost certainly have been re-faced.
Also, you might have difficulty finding short bolts to hold the liners down.
We went through this some time ago with D'man. Perhaps just cut some old galvanised water pipe and use the existing head bolts - no need to crank them down super tight.
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I was just going to ask about French metric vs what is readily available. :huh:
Bought short bolts yesterday but they did not fit. Thought I must have grabbed the wrong pitch.
Tried again today but nothing available is correct.
Looks like I will have to get the lathe going to make spacers.
I will try to get a bore measurement tonight, has to be in inches though.
No flat at the top of the pistons.
Compression was claimed to be pretty high.
Hoping Serg will have what I need for the rebuild.
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Did not get to take my measurments but this may help?
Looks like standard bore with a compression bump.
We used to call such pistons "Pop-up's".
Once I get the head reasonably clean I have the tools to CC the chambers.
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77mm bore = 1565cc. Those look to be "higher" compression pistons, at least in the 10.25:1 and up range.
(77.8mm = 1596cc, 78mm = 1605cc, 79mm = 1647cc)
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Did not get to take my measurments but this may help?
Looks like standard bore with a compression bump.
We used to call such pistons "Pop-up's".
Hmmm . . can't see the piston top properly at that angle.
But pick a likeness out of these:
Left: Alpine 1796 (82.5mm) piston - ignore this one.
Middle: R12-Gordini piston - coming in at about 12:1 (allegedly) before you relieve the combustion chamber etc.
Right: R17-TS piston - slight dome for 10.25 compression.
A dead flat piston top is what the R16TS came with and is variously quoted around 8.6 or 9.0:1.
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I never did get direct contact info for the guy who built this engine.
I was told it's about 11.5/12-1 and turns 8K RPM.
Middle piston is closest match but not exact.
Dome profile is consistent all the way across the top.
You may be able to get a better idea looking at the valve pockets.
Once I am able to bring them to TDC I will get a better pic.
Very little ridge in the cylinders so I may be able to just re-ring this engine.
If not I suspect that finding matching pistons will be a challenge.
What I have now are German made, Sach's?
JE will make a new set for $1K, a set of V8 pistons are $1K.
Maybe get two sets made for the price of one?
Going to clean up my lathe so that I may make some spacers to hold the cylinders down.
Cannot get totally immersed in the Lotus right now so pulling the engine will have to wait.
Need to get my MIG welder back in action to make the cradle that will stand in for the engine and trans.
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Two more shots of the same participant line up but at different angles.
The middle piston is out of a F2 Renault powered car which explains the deep valve reliefs . . and also obscures the original shape.
The profile has a quite pronounced middle section bump above the principal radius but it's not a smooth radius across the whole piston . . if that makes sense.
These OEM Renault 12-G pistons have a similar profile to the Wossner's - last pic.
But I've also see aftermarket versions where they do away with the Renault "hump on a hump" look. e.g. Mecaparts.
Installing these pistons mandates head clearance relief of the squish area.
Anyway, cc-ing the whole thing should tell the story.
I have a Sachs race clutch out of that same F2 Renault car around here somewhere.
Do Sachs also make pistons?
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I was probably thinking of Mahle.
Need to find a solvent to use in my parts washer that does not affect aluminum so that I may clean up the head.
Curious to see just how Ported it really is.
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Finally got my cylinders locked down so that I may turn the engine over.
That let me get more pics of the pistons.
Dome is not so extreme as expected.
Maybe some one here can interpret the markings?
Might reveal maker and compression?
Make a cast to measure dome?
Engine tag.
Also noted that the shift rod sits Very close to the engine block and have to wonder if this is normal or needs correction?
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Wiring has been a topic here lately.
Decided to look at mine, in part to see how bad a job it is going to be to fix up another Europa.
Access seems not so bad as some horror stories make it out to be.
But my own wiring may be due for a new loom, I see some sort of trailer wiring module being used for turn signals. Not a good sign.
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I see some sort of trailer wiring module being used for turn signals.
That should be the DB10 relay, used on various British cars (your MM might even have one). Though it is possible someone replaced it with a trailer module, all it is two dpdt relays.
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Not able to do anything major with the car at the moment as I have a pretty hefty bill coming due at the machine shop for a couple of non-Lotus engine builds.
Still looking for some small parts to restore the car to a more original state.
Recently got a set of bumpers, rear is very good, front is easily (?) repairable.
Trying to decide if I want to chase down all the badging the PO removed.
I always find them annoying when trying to wash and wax any car.
No plans to sell but eventually I will be unable to enter and exit.
At that time resale value becomes more important.
Would having the badges and letters in a box make that much difference?
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When I had my bumpers rechromed, I had my front bumper straightened. I don’t remember how bad it was, but I don’t think it was too bad. Anyway, the chrome guy said he could bend it back the way it was without another to compare it against. He did get it pretty close but the end sticks out about 3/8”, maybe less on the end that had been hit. The interesting thing is I’ve seen a similar situation on other Europas. Maybe the same guy straightened their bumper or the guy who did theirs used the same technique!
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The front bumper I sourced had obviously been used to stop the car. L-shaped from above. I was amazed at how the chrome shop could straighten it so well without a sample. In my case, it was ~1/4" too tight, and scraped the paint, which is being replaced anyway, so no big deal.
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Before they do the final polishing and plating, get the bumper back and try it in the car. Easy to resize before the final steps. I did that with mine and had them widen the front by a 1.4”.
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There are very few places (comparatively) that do real chrome plating any more. The funny thing is that I found a place out of town - I don't remember where they were - who would do my bumpers. I had my wife ship them to them and they gave me an estimate. I waited a week or two and hadn't heard from them so I called. He said, "Oh, I didn't know you wanted us to do them!" I thought, do you really think I'm going to send my bumpers to every chrome shop to make sure I get the very best deal?!!
As I say, he did a pretty nice job. I wish mine had come in as tight as Kendo's but they're fine.
I also want to give a recommendation for Quick-Glo chrome cleaner and polisher (www.quick-glo.com). I saw it on Jay Leno's Garage and bought some. The chrome covers for my K&N air filters had some small "stains" in the chrome so I thought I'd give it a try. I didn't use it them but when I was washing and waxing my car the other day, I saw some "stains" in the chrome on one of my bumpers. You couldn't see it from more than 5 feet away but I was still bummed about it. I tried some Quick-Glo and it really polished my bumpers up very nicely!!! I'm very impressed with it!
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Finally got to buy some parts beyond mere bumpers or lenses.
New cam followers are on the way.
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Now that I have my not easily sourced new cam followers what should I make a point of doing next?
Pull the cam for exam, get the head rebuilt?
Trying to make a point of addressing the items most difficult to obtain first.
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Pulled a set of valves for measurement.
Also got a better look at the ports.
Seems prior work concentrated on blending the seats a bit really nothing on the intake tracts.
Looks the exhaust cannot be improved without adding metal.
I will be sending the head to HBR in Las Vegas.
The tubes from the head to the valve cover are in the way for taking out the valves, how are they removed?
Anyone have pics of a ported TS street head?
Seems the intakes could use a little smoothing.
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I had no troubles removing my valves with the tubes in place. What type of spring compressor do you have?
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Several actually.
"C" type, compact screw knob type, even a specialized version for doing flat-heads.
None seem able to get a good reach past the tubes.
Going to send the head out for freshening and maybe light port blending.
Not sure if the tubes might be an issue for the head shop.
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I finally got around to transferring title to my name.
Progress of a sort.
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Looked at the TS head intake tracts and Weber manifolds last night.
The intake ports seem to have a bit of a choke point just past where they were machined.
Bottom of the ports match the intake manifolds very well, but the head ports are larger, and mismatch to the intake manifolds for most of the upper diameter.
This leaves a step-out from the manifold to the head.
Glad it is not the other way around.
My inclination is to very lightly clean up the intake tract removing the casting line, and blending the restriction smoother.
It seems the top of the port may be very thin where the top of the head is recessed for the intake bolts.
For a better match I am thinking of modifying the intake manifolds.
They are far more available if I make an error than the head.
Still interested in what others may have done in this area.
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Anyone have pics of a ported TS street head?
Modified head above and stock R17TS head below.
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Always be careful of dropping the port’s floor. You can end with intake flow that blows across the head of the valve essentially using only half of the valve’s opening. Ducati heads, for example, were particularly poor in this regard.
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No intent to drop the port floor as it already matches the intake manifolds very well.
Street/Hill-Climb car so leery of enlarging the ports much if at all.
So looking at matching the intakes.
I need to price a replacement set just in case.
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G'day Richard,
Is yours an actual 16TS head from a Renault 16TS and what are the valve sizes?
I ask because from what I've gathered over the years it is said that the 843 engine used smaller ports.
I've never had an 843 head side alongside a 16TS head but it'd be interesting to compare. The other thing is that the 843 seems to be the predominant cross-flow available in NA. The Renault Fuego in our part of the world only came with the 2 litre OHC engine and not the turbo 843.
Here in OZ, we were lucky. Renault had a factory here at the time and they produced the Renault 16 locally.
The then Govt. were encouraging (mandating) various degrees of local content so ours were delivered with a Bosch distributor, alternator and the like - more grist for the mill.
Here's a head cross-section pic if that's any help.
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I will have to identify my head.
I can certainly say that the intake tract is nowhere near as nice as the sectioned head you posted.
Pics if I am able.
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Been a bit frustrated not being able to do more with the car.
Decided I will send the head to an expert for rework.
Number behind distributor on the head is 597403.
Engine is 821-02, No. 7138
Looks to me like some bowl and seat blending would be helpful along with cleaning up the intake ports.
Not looking to go radical as these heads are just too hard to find.
I may have asked before, has anyone tried Beehive springs?
Need to get my cam out of the block for examination.
Neither my engine or trans are numbers matching, so no worry over keeping it "Correct". >:D
Almost forgot the valve sizes. 42.26 and 35.45 MM.
Second edit, anyone have a link to Mecaparts in English?
Everyone likes pics?
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Safari on my iPad does not translate so I'm thinking you're on Apple. I think Chrome is available for Apple and I think it probably translates for you since google does have a translate site (translate.google.com), but I don't have Chrome so I'm guessing. If you're on Windows, the Microsoft Edge browser translates everything for you and, as I say, I would expect Chrome to as well.
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Spoke to LA Sleeve, prices are ghastly at $500 per sleeve.
At twenty-four pieces the price drops to $200 per sleeve.
Got a price from Salv for new 78mm forged pistons, about $700.
A bit less than ordering custom from JE but may be a wash by the time my old sleeves are machined to 78mm.
He did not state the CR but the Wossner site shows 11.7-1!
Interesting that he says the Max Speeding rods are now good to use.
He also offers Turbo rods at about half the price.
I guess shopping is a form of progress? ;)
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Salv Sacco got back to me with some advice and quote$.
Seems I probably have an "807" engine which is a little confusing as that is not the model on the block tag.
I appear to have put myself into the most rarified and difficult build possible without trying to do a concours S1.
Renault engine is not as well supported as the TC.
TS head is even less supported as it is not factory.
US made forged JE custom pistons run $1,000.
Cost of 78mm domed Wossner pistons £575.00/$700 full set including pins and rings but probably not shipping.
Gaskets are not too difficult to find.
But a cam, cams seem to be an issue for many engines nowadays.
For the TS they seem to be hens teeth which require grinding the old cam.
That reduces the base circle and is not ideal.
Really hoping my cam is good to reuse.
After perusing this site and several vendors I have concluded that the Europa is really no more difficult to work on than say, a Triumph Spitfire.
The likely exception being the fiberglass body.
I have to complete an MG Midget to driver but not repainted status as the C30 truck is no fun at all.
Also getting the dirt buggy going as my DD.
With those out of the way I will finally have space to remove the S2 body from the chassis.
That should make my rebuilding efforts much simpler.
Not going to be ready this year bit I am determined to be on the road 2023.
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Piston pricing seems pretty strange. Back when I was racing my Spridget, a set of pistons for my 1275cc motor cost about the same amount as my buddy’s 351 Cleveland even though they came from the same company (Venolia) and I had half as many smaller pistons! Of course, Venolia probably made 20 sets of 351 pistons for every set of 1275cc Spridget pistons!
Speaking of which, you might want to give Venolia a call about your pistons. They used to advertise pistons for just about any engine imaginable.
WRT working on bodies, I’d much rather work with a fiberglass Lotus body than a steel Spitfire body!
Good luck with your project!
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Sadly Venolia is out of business.
Looked up the price for dual MC's with balance bar last night.
Yow, I have my vertical mill running again so need to find that drawing for building my own.
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Found this one, https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ycpxbus25awspu1/AACOu2lI85sLq18BrMTPiVSua?dl=0&preview=Pedal+Assembly+Base+Plate.pdf
Thought I had seen another that does not require the steel spacer tubes?
Time to dig through my materials pile.
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It sounds like you’re interested in fabricating your own but I think Lotus Supplies has everything you need. Dave Bean would be worth a call, too, if you want to buy it rather than make it.
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Depends on price.
If it is $300+ before you get to the MC's I will certainly make my own.
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At that price point, you’ll enjoy the experience of making your own! :)
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Seeing yet another TC join the fray makes me wonder.
Which is the more rare Europa variant, S1 or S2 with TS head?
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RE my pistons, "They look standard R17 pistons, slight dome and a valve relief each side".
Wondering what the compression ratio would have been with these?
I may have found out why #4 was low on compression.
Slight valve face mark on the piston, so maybe a bent exhaust valve?
No visible damage but if I pull it and chuck it up on the lathe in a collet I should be able to measure run-out.
Trying to decide if my cam is good to reuse.
It LOOKS fine to the eye, but some of the lifters had wear.
So I guess it will be V blocks, a dial indicator, and degree wheel to examine and compare each lobe.\
That bring up another question.
Many current cam companies demand that a new cam be run-in at around 2,000+ RPM for twenty minutes or so.
Seems harsh for a fresh engine, necessary on a Renault with new lifters?
Really curious to learn just how "Hot" this engine really was.
Couple of project that have been delaying me are finally nearing completion. :D
EDIT: Not easy to find specs on old engines.
Looks like 77mm R17 was 9.25-1 and 78mm Gordini was 10.25-1.
Not sure if there were different dome heights or just the increased bore.
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Playing with engine calculators it seems Gordini had more dome, 1mm does not increase compression significantly.
Something wrong with these calculations, result should be around 11.7-1.
Trying to determine how much would need to be milled off.
Bore: (diameter) 78mm
Stroke: 84mm
Cylinder Head Volume: 44cc
Effective Dome Volume: -23.1cc (Per Wossner site)
Use (-) for Dome and (+) for Dish.
Deck Clearance: 0
Compressed Gasket Thickness: .045" ?
Number of Cylinders: 4
Compression Ratio : 16.19 : 1
Total Displacement (in.3) : 98.01
Total Displacement cc's : 1606.72
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Yes, sounds like your pistons are 9-ish:1. You probably also have a mild cam grind. You can gain a lot with wilder grinds but you can also lose a lot as well. No point in max power at 8K if it means an overhaul every two years. I happily went with a torquier grind over a race grind. Lots of useful low end torque, still a nice high end hit and it it pulls strongly to the redline.
The key to proper cam/follower break-in is adequate lubrication. The followers and cam are splash lubricated so you need rpm to get sufficient oil flow/splash. This is why the 2K+ rpm for 2 minutes recommendation. It is important. Do it. I preset the timing, bleed the cooling system as best as possible before start up. There are many cam/follower lubes out there. Use a good one! Use lots! After the cam break-in and full warm up, I change the oil and filter, and let the engine cool overnight. I then retorque the head and reset the valves. Then I restart and finish the fine tuning. Next oil and filter changes at 100, 500 and 1000. At the 1000, I also retorque the head and reset the valves after an overnight cool off. After that, I follow the normal maintenance schedule.
Follower wear is normal on these engines. High revs means even more wear. Mine will easily rev to 8K but I redline it at 6500 because I want a longer time between overhauls. 8K also leads to issues with cranks cracking.
I suspect your valve marks on the piston are due to over revving and valve float.
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Trying to figure out my current color.
Same as my avatar but looks a deeper Blue standing still.
I had thought it to be Glacier Blue but now see that it may be a darker Blue than that.
Trying to decide between Glacier, Wedgewood or even French Blue.
Could be something else entirely since it was originally L10 Bahama Yellow.
Since I have no concern with ever selling it I am free to make it any color I like.
Sample color pics taken tonight.
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Seems Glacier Blue may be a little lighter than my current color but looks great.
Also looks like it may have made a come back for newer models.
Apparently rare back in the day, I wonder why?
Lotus Code: LO 18
Glacier Blue, Metallic
Lotus Part No: A050B6223V
PPG Colour Code: 14170
ICI Code: P0794403
Available: Jul 73 - Oct 73
Also called Ice Blue - an Austin Healey colour in 50s, Rover colour in 60s, Triumph colour in 70s
An example I found on-line.
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I like it!
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My TCS has the paint code of L18 which is more of a green, turquoise color.
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After additional Web lurking I am leaning toward the current color being French Blue Metallic or something close to that.
I have found some variations of LeMans Blue that appear as a close match too.
I think I will take a door with me to the paint shop for matching.
Nothing says I have to retain the current color but I like the look of the car when it ran the Hill-Climb shown in my avatar.
Have to resist "Arrest Me Red".
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Can not stand making so little progress any longer!
So I have decided to do the 'Inexpensive' part first.
That would be the bodywork and dash as it does not require any major purchases.
Tonight I got the driver side door off.
Seems the pins may not be original as they have no way to pull them from the bottom.
I will take the door with me when I go to Carson City for paint code matching.
Finally noticed a door tag that says my car was built 3/70.
Been too busy trying to get an old MG Midget on the road.
Finally have it running but nearly all electrics are dead.
Guess MG dash wiring may be good practice for the Lotus.
Should at least have it moving on its own in a few more days.
With the Midget mobile I will have space to remove the Lotus body.
It will go up on steel sawhorses for now.
As everyone here knows, body off will make the mechanical much easier.
Hoping to sell a couple of vehicles I am no longer enthused about to fund the Lotus.
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If taking things apart is progress today was a good day.
Got the other door off and the dash out.
Labeled as many wires as possible but found several already dangling.
Worst are the one that change color along the way due to DPO.
Unhappy to find the loom from fuse block (Just 2, really?) to headlamps pretty much melted.
I am scrapping several Spridgets so have a source for correct color wiring and some indicator lights.
Glad to see that a new binnacle and formed heater hoses are available and not expensive.
But it looks like I can buy the correct dies for my tube bender for much less than the stainless transfer tube price.
Found that I will have to remove the windshield to get the dash pad off since the pad is riveted to the body.
Not looking forward to that and putting it off until I may make a crate to store it.
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Every step in your journey is a good step. If you do end up needing wiring supplies, http://www.britishwiring.com/Default.asp is your friend.
Some people have replaced their minimal fuse box with a more substantial fuse boxes. I think that’s probably a good idea.
Good luck and keep us up to date!
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Got the old veneer layer off the dash.
Surprised to find another veneer on the back which will need some repair unless I replace the whole dash.
Anyone have a drawing for cutting a new one?
The replacement veneer I had hoped to use is less than 2" too short. :headbanger:
I have another piece that may work if I book-end it at the center.
Not sure what it is, it may be birds-eye maple.
It has a lot of 'Figure'. :)
Currently have it laying under some books to flatten out so that it may become easier to work with.
I already have a professional vacuum laminating system but may have to purchase a larger bag.
Need to practice on scrap before doing the dash.
These guys seem the easiest to work with for supplies, https://www.veneersupplies.com (https://www.veneersupplies.com)
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Body is unbolted!
Not removed yet but once I disconnect the steering column, seat belts, and a few odd bits it will be ready.
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That didn't seem to take long. How long did it take you? I have a friend who is considering a body off restoration and I tried to reassure him that it wasn't THAT big a deal to take the body off but it had been so long since I had done it, I couldn't be very specific about the effort involved.
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With two people it would be pretty simple, maybe two hours for the fourteen body bolts and a couple more for cables, wiring and brake pipe?
By myself, about twelve hours!
My efforts were complicated by the need to reach inside and under the car at the same time.
Seat sliders being rusty also slowed me down since they would not move. Ended up cutting and grinding off the rear bolts.
I will be setting it on some steel saw-horses until I have the rotisserie fixtures made.
I intend to modify some of the mounting hardware for simpler one man work in the future.
Mostly making bolts semi-captive and reversing a couple so they do not protrude so far under the car.
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In addition to the 14 body bolts there are the inner seatbelt bolts and some wiring grounded to the chassis.
Also remove the brake reservoir.
I think I am ready to lift it up now.
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:beerchug:
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Step forward, step back.
Found that the upper pulley bearing on my forklift mast is seized.
As a one-man band I will have to repair that before lifting the body.
I can work on removing the interior for now.
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Richard
A new instrument panel is easy if the old one is in reasonable shape. Just bolt the new veneered blank to the old one using the mounting holes, and flush router. Finish and your done.
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I know what you mean Rich. Sometimes our tools can’t keep up with us.
Nice progress. The veneer shop is where I purchased mine , strange thing though I bought a package deal of 3 -12 x 48 pieces . Looks like they stopped those listings.
Dakazman
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Found a few more items to remove.
Heater box hoses, more ground wires, and a bolt holding a tab on the fuel tank to the body.
Annoyed that neither metric or imperial tubing wrenches appear to fit the brake line.
I suppose I will try my BS wrenches but none are made for tubing nuts.
According to some instructions I also need to remove the hand brake pivot and pedal box assembly.
Having gotten into it this deep I am certain this will be the second body-off rebuild.
The French Blue? color change is just too through to have been done with the car assembled.
So far the chassis looks to be excellent, body off will be the big reveal.
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I have no idea what the DPO was thinking in adding these chunks of ugly angle-iron at the rear of the chassis?
There is one on each side and they attach to nothing.
Looks like saw and grinder time unless someone here has a good reason for me to keep them.
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I have no idea what they would be for. If you don't have a use for them, get rid of them.
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And found a few more bolts to remove.
Pedal assembly has four.
Also screws holding the brake line union.
I think I have all of them now but the front is not coming up easily.
Maybe wedged on, or glue?
Proceeding carefully!
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Richard,
The L channel looks to an idea for anchor point for the rear stowage area. I would listen to BDA on that one and cut it off.
You are making great progress.
Dakazman
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Did you unbolt the emergency brake arm? I didn't see that mentioned it...
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Yes I did remove the E-brake arm.
Think I found the problem with getting the front to lift off.
Upper A arm nut is protruding into the cabin.
I hope to be able to remove it and push the bolt forward to clear.
Second pic is what happens with fat tires, hard cornering, and suspension lowered just a little too far for the combination.
Third pic, looks like the front wheel wells have been trimmed at the top to clear the fat tires?
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OK, body is actually ready to be lifted off at last.
May have done some 'unnecessary' work as I released the fuel tank from the body.
Since my forklift is out of commission I will try to recruit some local help.
In my town that means the hard part is finding guys under sixty.
I've heard all sorts of stories about Chapman being cheap but never really took them very seriously until today.
CARDBOARD for the wheel-well shuts, really?
Hoping someone is already selling fiberglass or aluminum replacements?
Also found that the disc brake conversion rotors that came with the car do not actually fit the PCD.
Looking for an alternative that does if possible.
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Well, it's not just cardboard - it's tar'ed cardboard. I found some plastic sheeting that I cut into shape for the wheel wells.
Chapman was cheap. He was trying everything to lower costs and even still, he wasn't able to get a reasonable margin. The stub axles are from a Hilman Imp which didn't have nearly 100 hp.
I've found that working on a car over time changes your opinion about the engineering involved with it. I've seen ridiculous short cuts in Mercedes cars that for the price of them, there is no excuse for that.
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RD Enterprises has PVC wheel well closing plates, different shapes for front and back
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Body is now on stands.
I am gathering material to make the rotisserie adapters.
I will have to wheel the body outside for soda blasting.
Considering soda blasting a must, as I want to remove all the old body filler and do the repairs properly.
Despite cost I will be using Holdtight 102 with the water rinse to avoid primer/paint adhesion issues.
Planning to use epoxy repair for stronger bonds.
I intend to also use vacuum bagging for best wet-out and flow.
Happy to see my chassis appears to be rust-free and strait. ;D
I seem to recall some recommended reinforcements for the chassis?
Not so happy with the left trailing arm.
A few pics.
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I had my TCS soda blasted. I can say from experience that you might/will have an extreme number of pin hole repairs. My original fiberglass was just porous junk, lacking any kind of gelcoat. I would say I filled at least 1000 pin holes and they were not from any of my body filler work. The worst of it was along the door jambs, door edges, hood and engine deck edges, roof and water catch troughs. That being said, I know I saved time and filler work had I chose to DA the entire body and hand sand all the nooks, returns and tight areas. My car had 5-6 coats of paint including the original paint. The other thing to watch is blow through. Some areas are very thin and if the paint is adheared well the operator may over do it. I had a few areas that I had to re-glass and others where the area was not totally stripped as the operator stopped for fear of going to far. So I still had to hand sand these areas to get all the paint off .
If I were to do again I would still blast, hope for the best and just repair as needed. I had a metal body soda blasted and it came back really nice but to say I was a bit "shocked" when I first saw the Europa body would be an understatement. Your body condition and situation may be different, but a good discussion with your blaster would be advised. My operator had done tens of early Corvettes and a few Avanti's and his statement to me was , " That was the worst fiberglass I ever blasted". 102 is great stuff and worth the expense. Good Luck and happy sanding.
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I really have no choice but to soda-blast as my shoulders will never let me do that much sanding. :'(
I will be the operator, lower pressure will be key to success.
This car only has one additional coat of paint from original.
I need to see and repair what is under Bondo.
Bondo is a no-no over fiberglass.
Turns out the underside of S2's was never painted at all. :o
Before I may blast I still have to remove all old undercoat and oil.
Also have to research access to the insides of the paper thin doorsills.
Bodywork is going to be much more difficult than the mechanicals.
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I have the rotisserie adapter designed.
Not thrilled that it will have to pass through the nose and tail openings but to do otherwise makes it overly complex.
Could not abide those ugly angle-iron tabs someone goober welded onto my frame.
Today I removed them.
Not fully finished as I have to strip the frame so that I may rotate it for better access.
I will be welding in some new flange.
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That came out pretty good! It could have been a lot worse!
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Got the fuel tank out.
At first glance it looks good, but on closer look I see a welded repair.
Still had some fuel in it.
I really want twin tanks, Nevada is a collection of rural communities.
Home to Reno and back is about 170 miles round trip with no other excursions.
Expecting to have to Doctor my fuel for octane so adding more mid trip will not be convenient.
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Made it to the hardware store today.
They have a very sparse selection of stains.
I picked one that looked just a fraction darker than original.
Doing a small sample it appears a little lighter than I had hoped but may be OK once I get the clear varnish on it.
Still not sure what type of veneer I have but it has some almost iridescent qualities when viewed at an angle.
I intend to avoid the thick varnish of the original dash.
Semi-gloss Spar Varnish, not gloss.
I will have to match grain at the center but after all the cut-outs there will be very little remaining joint visible.
Hoping to do this soon as it's a relatively simple and inexpensive task.
Using the $12.00 in 'scrap' veneer helps a lot. ;D
Should have a sample pic in the morning after the second coat of varnish.
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Pics of my too small veneer sample.
This may be Birdseye Maple?
Very light until stained, still lighter than the samples at the store after stain.
I also have Dark Walnut stain but that is too dark even on this light wood.
Pics, stained and raw, in the light and in shadow.
In the light the color is pretty golden, in shadow it is closer to what I was looking for.
Camera is not 100% accurate.
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That's an interesting grain! Mercedes used to offer it (probably still does) on some of their more luxury-minded models.
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Made the run into the big city today.
Got two more bags of blasting soda.
Also stopped at the paint store.
No luck finding the Lotus French Blue by code.
Resorted to Nason single stage color chips and found a very close match to what is on the door I took for comparison.
Nason SM5360.
Also got a recommendation to use High Tack 2K Primer Sealer.
Still need to get some Holdtight 102 I have to order on-line.
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Since I'm close to painting my TCS, why did your paint source recommend that high tack primer? And what brand?
Second, I'd never heard of the Holdtight 102. Looking it up, they talk about eliminating flash rust and salt contaminants on metal. Does it also do good things for fiberglass? Or are you talking about using it for the chassis?
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So naturally that particular primer/sealer has been discontinued.
Suggested alternative is epoxy primer Nason 491-16 and 483-19 activator.
About $130 per quart for the set.
There appears to still be a High-Tech primer available from several sources including Summit Racing.
The Holdtight 102 is pretty much critical to clean the surface after Soda-Blasting.
It certainly would not hurt with other types of prep but is a bit expensive so if you do not have to use it I would not.
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Pics of my too small veneer sample.
This may be Birdseye Maple?
Very light until stained, still lighter than the samples at the store after stain.
I also have Dark Walnut stain but that is too dark even on this light wood.
Pics, stained and raw, in the light and in shadow.
In the light the color is pretty golden, in shadow it is closer to what I was looking for.
Camera is not 100% accurate.
I use Upol 2253 hi build and hardener , Pinholes are a nuisance so push the paint into the holes and respray area.
After spraying any primer bake it , let it sit in the sun and BAKE.
dakazman
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I think I most likely will be squeezing on a thin layer of epoxy resin over the entire surface of the body after repairs.
This is one reason for soda-blasting, a true clean surface to work with.
Epoxy goes over Polyester, but not the other way around.
Seems universally agreed that Epoxy has better adhesion.
I have to only do this once!
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I've generally read that the first layer after fiberglass is a high build polyester primer. Polyester/polyester adheres pretty well. Sanding that gets all of the sanding scratches and other blems covered. Then 2K epoxy primer, paint, and clearcoat if you do that.
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The oft repeated idea that polyester won't adhere to epoxy is not necessarily true. Bond strength is similar to polyester over cured polyester provided the epoxy was mixed properly, fully cured and the surface properly prepared - at least according to the author of this article
https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/applying-polyester-gelcoat-over-epoxy/
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Today I soda blasted my bonnet.
Here are my observations.
It required more soda than I would like at $1.00 a pound.
After a few minutes I was able to reduce the soda flow while keeping the efficiency.
Smooth side blast a lot quicker than the rough.
Original paint can be stubborn.
I still need to touch up a few spots on the rough side.
If there were a chemical stripper that could be used without issue it would probably be my preference.
But Soda gets ALL the paint and filler off so reveals every old repair and flaw.
It also takes the soft Bondo away.
I am now convinced that Soda is the best if the body is to have all old issues addressed.
EDIT: Adding pics.
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Nice work, did all those cracks show in the paint?
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Nice job Rich.
Be careful rinsing and leaving the panel upside down and wet, panel can warp. Stand on edge and let dry.
Dakazman
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What’s up with the ‘X’ reinforcement? Did later cars get that? Or is it a PO addition?
My ‘73 TCS doesn’t have that. But a PO extensively damaged the front end. So I think I have a replacement from somewhere.
(BTW, 3M Safest Stripper seems to be working for me. Water based, easy to rinse off. No problems under the parts I have painted so far.)
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Early cars had it.
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Cannot say for certain what did or did not show in the paint as I am redoing old primer and repair.
I am sure it would have shown in my new paint as Bondo is not really a repair for fiberglass.
I will look into the 3M product.
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Those look pretty bad in the front corner, I would taper out the cracks as one and reglass.
The 3m product is an excellent bond to glass however I had a problem with it showing fiber outlines after the paint shrinks a year later . Mainly noticeable where I did not apply any putty. Just primer and sealer.
Dakazman
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I am still a long way from sealers and primer.
3M I am looking into is their paint stripper mentioned above.
It would be nice to only use the Soda-Blast for final clean up as it is a bit expensive.
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Before using chemical stripper, I would ask the paint mfg what they would suggest or steer you away from .
Dakazman
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Got a good start on stripping the engine cover today.
Found a lot of http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/Smileys/default/212.gif there.
Enough that I may be looking for an S2 type replacement.
Europa Engineering has them new, about $450.00 plus shipping.
Hoping someone else may also have them, USA would be best.
Mine is repairable, just a LOT of work.
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Cleaned the back side of six Cosmic wheels today.
I will use the five best and have one as a spare.
These are my "Period correct" wheels for when I am in the mood to run them.
Unable to do the engine or body work I would prefer right now so doing what I may.
Soda blaster works but is slow and the media is expensive.
So I switched over to carefully using glass bead in the blast cabinet.
Much more pleasant and faster.
I am also painting the clean aluminum with silver caliper paint.
Color is a pretty good match and a less porous surface will be much easier to clean in the future.
I don't know why the backside of aluminum wheels are left raw, I guess they are expected to be disposable.
I will move on to the front sides later.
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Impatience says I need to start on the more difficult front side of my Cosmic's.
To preserve the smooth finish of the bright portion it looks like I will be using chemical stripper.
Masking off the bright sections for blasting seems like a lot of work.
Particularly with ten wheels to do.
Need to decide, original black or change to Gold.
I think Gold would really accent the car with French Blue paint.
But Black is traditional. :confused:
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I refinished 5 Cosmic's and mounted the tires. A week later they were flat. I submerged them and found the castings were leaking, luckily on the back sides. A little peening with a punch and got them to seal. In retrospect I should have sealed the insides, maybe with Glyptal or similar. These are Cosmic MKI wheels. The fellow who machined the outer faces did say in passing they where known for their porosity. His statement didn't sink in until I saw the bubbles.
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I'm not familiar with Glyptal (I'm not in any way saying that is a bad choice) but I've heard epoxy paint recommended. I think it's your choice.
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Glyptal is used in electric motors. Also internally in engine blocks for sealing casting sands and assisting with oil return.
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I notice that the inside of the Cosmic's seems to have a fairly heavy coat of clear sealer of some sort.
Could be lacquer or ?
I have no plan to remove it.
One wheel seems to have had "Slime" added at some time.
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Had a long conversation with a Europa racer today.
I now know where to get rings for my Mahle pistons (Total seal) if they may be reused, Crane ground him a cam he is very happy with at .410 lift and 270 duration, BMW valve guides may be modified to fit TS heads.
http://www.gbsalpine.com/english/a110/catalog/p0016mot.html are another source of Renault engine bits. Their site has an option for English.
I will be sending him some pics after which he may have more suggestions for me.
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Cam for my TS headed S2
Clearly more lift than what I have now.
Should not be too radical?
Not cheap at Euro 550.
http://www.catcams.com/products/camshafts/datasheet.aspx?ENGINE_id=194&CAMSETUP_id=752&Language=english
intake exhaust
camshaft data:
lash ramp: 0.40mm0 .40mm
duration @ 0.1mm: :280° :280°
duration @ 1.0mm : 236° :236°
valve lift : 10.00mm :10.00mm
cam lift : 6.25mm :6.25mm
lobe angle : 110° :110°
timing @ 1.0mm : 8° / 48° :48° / 8°
valve lift @ TDC : 2.15mm :2.15mm
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The 807-12 and the Euro 17TS-844 engine (cooking versions of ~125HP) used a valve timing of 40/72/72/40.
Valve lift:
Inlet - 9.6mm; Ex. 9.5mm
This is a good cam IMHO and yours should be a bit better presuming compression, valve sizes etc. are in the ballpark.
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Got my engine mostly apart.
One bad cam lobe right at the nose, one piston with a chipped skirt.
So the build will be more expensive than I had hoped.
Crank is still standard.
Rod journals look perfect, one main may need to be polished.
Hoping I will not have to grind it 0.010".
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The cam is a disappointment but you were prepared to replace it anyway, right? Of course, wear there could portend wear other places but it seems you've dodged that bullet.
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It seems I may have "Dodged a bullet" when I could not get the engine to run.
Cam looks like it would have destroyed the lifter, then the block?
Piston damage was ignored by the prior builder, I can see where he filed the rough edge.
I also found the cylinders out of order and not matched to the pistons.
I am disappointed that anyone would be so careless in assembling an engine.
I intend to do much better.
Rebooted and now pics seem to work.
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Any time I deal with someone else's "rebuilt" anything, I expect the worst. You always have to take it apart and check.
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I have sent an Email to CatCams seeking basic operating range and shipping cost.
Hope to hear from them soon.
They have other parts that may be useful as well.
They list a US outlet but that company appears to only be doing BMW parts.
Yah, patience, not my strong suit these days. ;)
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My S2 is clearly due for restoration.
Found the right side outer U-Joint to be loose.
Going to take it to the bare frame and back.
Hoping the buyer for my TR6 project car comes through this week.
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Good choice to go frame up, Too many of these cars were butchered before we get to them. It's a lot of work but you'll know everything has been taken care of and it will be done to your satisfaction.
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There are too many critical items I fear may be about to become NLA.
Not having much luck with purchase enquiries as several emails are going unanswered. :(
Not assuming free shipping from anyone, so do need a full quote before purchase.
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Cat Cams answered.
"You can expect a 2500-6500rpm powerband with #5500525".
This is for a TS head engine and twin 40 DCOE's, headers.
I know lower red-line means longer life all else being equal.
Salv Sacco suggest this cam will get me to 125 HP with good low-end torque.
But I still wonder if I might be happier with the next step up?
Not planning to do much if any city traffic, but an occasional Hill-Climb is hoped for.
I know original was only 87 HP, so I suppose 125 HP should be plenty.
But I know I am as greedy for HP as anyone else.
Anyone here have an about 125 HP Renault powered car?
Sufficient power for fast road/occasional light competition?
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I have about a 130 hp crossflow and my Volvo wagon will kick its ass every time. Don't get me wrong but be realistic. You aren't going to be cleaning the clocks of any moms hauling half the soccer team in their 300hp German/Japanese wunderkind SUVs. Build an engine that is enjoyable on the street and keep some low down torque.
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Of course not for strait-line acceleration.
More interested in coming out of the corner and maybe not having to shift as often due to higher RPM band.
So soccer mom's aside, how is 130 HP to drive?
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If my hill climb experience is anything to go by, the appalling gap between 2nd and 3rd gears is much more important than a few extra revs.
My car was perhaps 120HP on a good day and the launch at start meant you couldn't take your hand off the gearstick before 2nd was needed.
On a track, it get's the power down so well, the main issue is to ensure you have a plan to get around the guy in front of you on the grid when the flag drops.
With that said, I recall starting alongside a mate with his 1860cc Alpine A110 on slicks and he made me look like I was standing still.
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It's fun. 0-60 in the high 7s/low 8s. In other words, 60s quick and enjoyable on the road. Absolutely brilliant on the highway. With there still being low down torque, it just romps up hills.
You have, however, spotted the fly in the ointment: the transaxle ratios. 336/352 have a hole between 2nd and 3rd. 395, one between 3rd and 4th. 365 have nicely spaced ratios but are hard to find. I'm presently building a 352/395/365 hybrid that I hope will work well. Spacing 1-2-3-4 should be sweet with 5th being an OD. Even better, it will have a 3.56 final drive rather than the 5 spd's usual 3.78.
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That sounds like the 'Goldilocks' gearbox, JB.
I'll be looking forward to your review.
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"The power-band of 5500526 will be around 2800-6800rpm".
Decisions, decisions.
Power-band from 2800, but will it pull away from a level stop decently at less?
Looking like 77.8mm pistons at 10.5 or 11 to 1.
Aluminum TS head and 4,000' home altitude so might get away with the 11-1?
Still looking for someone to bore my cylinders.
Ordering a RS fuel tank unless shipping is just too much.
Then the question becomes where to fit the battery.
I keep seeing mention of 'The odyssey battery" but not sure what battery that actually refers to.
I am familiar with a Honda Odyssey Motorcycle/Quad, would it be that very small battery?
I do not want to put the battery up front again.
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I think I would choose the #5500525 cam. I think you'll enjoy the low end torque more than the top end horsepower since you'd be able to use it more. I don't know much about hill climbs but I wouldn't think the 300 rpm difference in peak power would make that much difference since you only intend to occasionally participate in them.
Just my 2¢.
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OKAY, at least I may have found a shop to bore my sleeves.
http://qande.com/site/
They are in Anaheim CA.
$100.00+ each. :o
Part of that is a tooling charge.
Anyone else need Renault sleeves bored?
Additional sets should be cheaper as the tooling will already be made.
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Sleeves cleaned up nicely.
They still have a blue finish in the water jacket area.
Looking at them I do not see an obvious reason to not just put the top side down for boring?
That would seem to obviate the need for special tooling.
Almost tempted to just do it myself but lack confidence in getting a smooth enough finish from my old vertical mill.
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Power-band from 2800, but will it pull away from a level stop decently at less?
We're only guessing but I doubt there'd be a problem.
My tame crossflow had a mountain more torque that the original 1470cc engine.
I do not want to put the battery up front again.
Lots of people mount the battery in the space forward of the tail light.
Looking at them I do not see an obvious reason to not just put the top side down for boring?
I'd wait till your pistons arrive before boring the sleeves. No point risking doing it twice.
I'd have thought for the cost of the boring job ($400), you could probably get a set of new liners.
Was there an offer of liners with your new pistons? They're usually available as a matched set.
Machine shops are often wary of boring wet liners and particularly if they're to be done without being installed in the block with a strain plate, which is fair enough.
Apparently, the motorcycle guys are more confident doing single liners as one might expect, though I've not been down that road.
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One of those no-win situations.
New 78mm sleeves are available at Euro 57 ea., plus shipping from France.
I prefer to go with 77.8mm but those are not available new.
78mm pistons raise the compression even more due to increased volume.
I also like remaining just under 1600cc, not sure why.
Maybe because I hope to retain my current Weber jetting.
I will be waiting for the pistons and clearance specification before sending the sleeves off to be done.
Wossner do not supply sleeves.
The Renault sleeves have a pretty hefty diameter at the top and two flats.
If that may be used to hold them for boring I would not expect a special fixture to be needed.
Might still have to do something to prevent the thin portion from chattering.
I am very surprised this has not come up more often as 77mm performance pistons appear unavailable without having them custom made.
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Have you tried MECAPARTS?
Cast iron shirt 77.8mm - 47,95 €
The FX conversion must be close to 1:1 for you US guys.
https://www.mecaparts.com/product/chemise-fonte-77-8mm/
The R-12G was originally delivered with 77mm pistons for 1565cc. I suspect this was just a Renault performance package based around existing sleeves already available in the early 807's.
The 77.8mm pistons came later, presumably as a means of increasing capacity while remaining legal for 1600cc class racing.
The real question is; why go to 78mm for 1605cc and be suddenly illegal for a poofteenth of capacity. :confused:
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Did not see those at R16 Shop.
Emails sent in an attempt to get more details.
Not too heavy so maybe shipping will be reasonable?
But the other question becomes if they are ready to use, or require a hone to final size?
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Okay, I am told they should be good to go. :D
I do have the measuring tools to confirm once they get here.
Still looking at one last possibility for matched sets of piston and liner.
Seller says "R12 Gordini" are highest (Factory) compression but failed to reveal just what that compression ratio would be.
Or to confirm displacement.
I do not want to end up with 10.5-1 and only 1400cc. :o
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R12G was 10.25-1 and 1565cc.
Probably what my engine had at its previous incarnation.
This may be much less expensive than the A-La-Cart approach I thought unavoidable.
Not finding the web based translation all that good.
I think this is a complete set of pistons, rings, pins, and sleeves?
https://www.mecaparts.com/product/kit-complet-4-chemises-pistons-avec-axes-et-segments-2/
Euro 433,26 plus shipping.
Now, does anyone have a clue for Beehive springs to fit a TS head?
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Yup, includes rings.
Why beehive springs? The stock springs will rev to 7500, no problem. At which point, you are just shortening your cam and follower life.
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R12G was 10.25-1 and 1565cc.
That's the cooking version.
There was also a 'BIG' compression version (11.5:1 or whatever it is) and your link isn't clear about that.
I expect either of these sets will use 21mm fully floating pins.
Piston/liner sets usually come with a set of base seals as well.
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Beehive springs for less spring mass and lower seat pressure.
Which should extend cam and follower life.
With cams being around $700.00 landed, plus the cost of lifters, they need to last longer.
Still waiting for a reply to my last enquiry regards confirmation of CR and material.
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Rear suspension almost fully apart.
And I will be buying more parts. :(
Incredible what some folk will do to keep driving.
For those of you competing, buy your tech inspectors a :beerchug: after the event.
If they are sharp they may save your event and even your life from the possible result of some folk skirting safety.
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Sold my TR6 project at a sacrifice price.
So should now have the funding to complete purchase of all the critical imported mechanical parts.
Looking forward to those yellow DHL boxes.
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:headbanger: Seems I cannot get Mecaparts to respond to my emails.
I know there is a language issue, I even sent a pre-translated message.
Neither my VOIP or Apple phone is working for international calls.
I may be able to remedy that in the morning.
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Wiped out from the efforts to load up the TR6 yesterday so today I took it sort of easy.
Got a good start on my rotisserie spindle.
Had to scrounge metal as the price for new material is "OMG!" high.
I may have to cut it apart to remove but that is not a disaster.
I am sleeping on it and hoping to dream up a better solution.
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FYI on Mecaparts pistons in case anyone else plans to build a TS head engine.
"Bonjour,
Le taux de compression du piston 1565cm3 est de 10.25 et pour la version 1596cm3, il est de 11.5."
In English: Hello The compression ratio of the piston 1565cm3 is 10.25 and for the 1596cm3 version it is 11.5.
Still not sure if they are forged or cast.
I will visit their site again.
From past visits I know some pistons are only available in cast and others are available forged.
I am getting more proficient in using the on-line translations. ;)
The £ to $ exchange rate is rapidly changing for the worse. :(
Has anyone crafted an alternative to the @$170.00 transmission mount?
I wonder if we could pour our own rubber to rebuild the original?
I know room temperature mixes are available in varied durometer rates.
But I am not certain how durable they are.
It still seems strange that so many parts for engines produced by the tens of thousands in relatively recent times are so hard to get already.
I was told again today that TS cam cores are "Very rare".
So I will almost certainly have to buy the expensive "Billet steel" cam.
I am about to place parts orders concentrating on the bulky items first.
Bracing myself for shipping cost.
I may have to forego the RS fuel tank which would be very disappointing.
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My MG-TF rotors are supposed to be delivered Friday.
I plan to try an experiment with the aluminum VW Scirocco calipers I happen to have on hand.
Not as ideal as Wilwood since they are single piston sliders, But!
They fit 13" wheels, are from a heavier car, should be easy to mount, and DO include an integral parking brake system.
Stay tuned.
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Has anyone crafted an alternative to the @$170.00 transmission mount?
Renault16 Shop for € 85,00
(Might need to drill correct bolt holes)
https://www.renault16shop.com/7700504124,0832013000,0832038400
I wonder if we could pour our own rubber to rebuild the original?
Richard Man, among others, have made poly versions.
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I was thinking that a Poly-bush version would be a fraction of the cost and last longer as well as being more rigid.
Time or money, I can never have both!
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Woo-Hoo, despite the language barrier I have now ordered the new 77.8mm sleeves from Mecaparts for my engine rebuild.
Now to get my pistons on the way!
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Parts purchases are slowed by the paranoia now prevalent for international purchases.
Orders keep being delayed by "Security measures" and need of one-time confirmation codes.
Why do I expect that the criminals are not being slowed?
Some parts have been ordered, but still having difficulty with the main order from Lotus Supplies.
The Inquiry followed by Invoice gets awkward if any changes are made.
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Replacement used "Intermediate shaft" on the way.
The old one might work but one bearing retainer loop is too loose for comfort.
I can just push the cap in and out.
Anyone used rod-end converted trailing arms?
Thinking to use an angled/pivoting poly-bush in place of the rod-end.
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More parts orders placed.
Trying to get as many critical engine parts as possible before the new year price increases.
Also seeing the exchange rate change daily, and not in my favor.
I ordered new fuel tanks and the left trailing arm before shipping cost also go up.
I only ordered one vanity item, the fake "Lotus" cast valve cover RD Ent. had on sale. ;)
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Anyone used rod-end converted trailing arms?
Thinking to use an angled/pivoting poly-bush in place of the rod-end.
I'm don't think I'm familiar with the "angled/pivoting poly-bush" for the radius arm pivot. Back in the day, the Jensen Motors team used rod ends for that pivot on their TC race car but I think I prefer Serge's ball joint upgrade (https://youtu.be/0Os40ns8NiI).
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I was thinking of these.
So far all I can find are 5/8" x 5/8".
If necessary I could make my own to fit.
Less compliance than the factory ends and less metal to metal harshness than a rod-end.
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What are you planning on the frame side? I would think you have some sort of solid mount?
Except for the radius arm pivot, the rest of the joints of my rear suspension are spherical rod ends (I have a twin link rear). I can’t compare the ride to another Europa (I hadn’t driven my stock Europa since the middle ‘70s) but I have been gradually converting to spherical rod ends and I haven’t really noticed any degradation in ride quality. At the moment my car is pretty stiffly sprung (250#/130#) and I may not be as sensitive to ride harshness as others so you might take that into account. I had heard solid rod ends produce a harsh ride but I think the harshness is oversold.
Teflon lined spherical rod ends are not lubricated but if you have an oil leak that gets on the rod end and road grit gets on the the ball, it can cause accelerated wear. That happened to me on the inner rod ends of the lower link. I got rubber boots to cover them and that seems helped a lot.
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Yeah . . understandably spherical rod ends on lower links or on dampers will sharpen suspension reaction times.
These perhaps won't impact NHV significantly because the gearbox is still mounted via compliant rubber. Similarly, dampers, by their nature, are compliant.
The forward end of the radius arm is different in that a ball joint actually replaces a compliant rubber mount with a solid connection. To what degree that introduces NHV is another matter.
Then there's the issue of 'zizzle' which can develop as ball joints wear but is probably less noticeable on links under a largely constant load.
I reckon what's needed is a much lower level of compliance – perhaps a stock TC/TCS gearbox mount might work to tighten up the compliance?
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I have been practicing with the MIG welder.
Hoping to replace some soft factory mounts with firmer versions.
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The transmission mounts for my Twin Cam are really soft….I will be using a higher durometer polyurethane in them and the motor mounts.
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Do you have a source for the Poly mounts, Turbo?
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I am making my own with urethane from McMaster-Carr...should have pictures when I do it next week...
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Email sent to Delta Cams in hope that my TS cam core may be restored for regrinding.
Then I just need to find a domestic cam grinder who will handle the job.
I think the guy who just sold his race car may have a suggestion.
My MG-F rear rotors arrived today.
I need to buy a set of pads but it looks like the aluminum VW Scirocco calipers may work fine.
An adapter should be pretty simple as the caliper and mount are integral.
Not so "Trick" as Wilwood but not nearly so expensive either and still an upgrade over the original drums.
Having the parking brake included will simplify matters as well.
The VW they come from weighs about 2,000 Lb. so they should be a good match.
I am not planning a lot of racing so am more interested in reducing fade than absolute stopping power.
When I tried to order the Wilwood calipers Serge mentions in his video Wilwood would not make them available.
I tried Summit Racing as suggested and they just never got back to me.
I did borrow Serge's free mount drawings as a starting point. ;D
Pics of parts.
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May have found a better end than regular rod ends.
Meant for 4X4 abuse so should last forever on a Lotus.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rkj-ce9112n7512 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rkj-ce9112n7512)
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Spoke with Delta Cams.
They think they have a grind for me.
Finally have the bulky items on their way from Lotus Supplies.
Two fuel tanks, trailing arm, pistons, and instrument binnacle so that I may engage in the wiring.
This takes care of the large items so the rest should be simple to have shipped.
A few more engine items to get but I think bearing, lower gaskets, timing chain, gears, etc. should be fairly simple to obtain.
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77.8mm - 1595cc sleeves arrived this morning.
Paper shim set included.
I may use a fine ball-hone on them for a smoother finish.
My originals appear to have a plating on the exterior to slow corrosion?
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Nice to see the plan coming together. Does that size liner allow for the connecting rods to go through? my 77's didn't but the 79's did.
Dakazman
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Had not thought about it.
I will check later.
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Another critical part has arrived, a replacement Intermediate Shaft (Rear axle) as one old one was damaged.
Yes, 77.8 mm bore does let the stock rod pass through from the top. :)
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Another critical part has arrived, a replacement Intermediate Shaft (Rear axle) as one old one was damaged.
Yes, 77.8 mm bore does let the stock rod pass through from the top. :)
That will make life a little easier. :beerchug: thanks for the info.
Dakazman
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The only non-essential part I ordered arrived today from r. d. ent., a "Lotus" cast TS valve cover that was on sale.
Yes they are heavy, but my new 1595cc (Not 1995) engine should be making around 130 HP?
So I am allowed this one little bit of "Bling"! ;)
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Nice! Will look good on it!
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1995cc?
With a 77.8 bore?
Maybe 1595cc?
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Doh!
Yes, 1595cc.
Typing is still not really one of my best skills.
As long as I am on here.
Anyone tried having their lifter faces TiN plated?
Comp Cams offers it as an option for their cams but the cost is $250.00.
I am having my Europa cam rebuilt by Delta Cams out of WA.
I expect that eight small lifter faces would be much less expensive to have plated than a cam.
Also still trying to pull together the information required to go to Beehive springs.
They should be stable with less seat pressure which would also hopefully extend cam and lifter life.
I have this strange desire to only rebuild this engine once.
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Found a little time today to contact a couple of companies about TiN plating my cam followers.
I will be sending a pic and possibly a sample to get quotes.
Only eight pieces so hopefully not too expensive.
Should be less than the $250 that Comp charges to do one of their cams. :headbanger:
There may be a quantity break if anyone else might be interested.
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Oooof!
I had expected that TiN coating my cam followers might be moderately expensive.
But $600.00 min charge is a killer. :o
However, I am also told that there should be enough space in the minimum order for additional components.
I am also told that there are better coatings available, but no price yet on those.
This is one of those things best done in a larger volume.
I think I should be able to add my rockers with no issue.
Not sure what else might be worthwhile, maybe cam sprockets?
I have not heard back from the other company yet.
To do this I probably need to add more components from some of my other engine builds or get some fellow participants to go in with me.
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And another wear reduction strategy, https://hekimianracing.com/2016/12/22/cryogenic-treatment-pricing/
This one includes a price list!
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The baffling of my modified oil pan that I question the efficiency of.
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Does that sump baffle work, Richard? . . presumably it does.
I'd be tempted to replace it with something along more traditional lines utilising a full top plate and an enclosed area for the pick-up and one way trap doors.
Here's some previous discussion on roller rockers, if that takes your fancy.
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1hqntqdies05g3mo4d8eobio00&topic=4334.15
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I really question the utility of the current baffle system.
It seems to me that it likely impairs efficient oil flow.
It may keep oil around the pick up for right turns but does nothing for left?
I also do not see a clear path for oil to be returned to the left side of the sump except by leaking around the baffle and gate.
Maybe some holes added to the top surface would be an improvement?
Nothing that I see for braking or acceleration baffling.
I hope that someone may have an improved design for me to use.
Once I have the bottom end closer to assembly I may try to fabricate a crank scraper.
Roller rockers I have mixed feelings about.
Not a fan of the complexity, so many additional little needle bearings to fail.
And the expense!
But always a fan of more HP.
It may come to nought but I am pursuing an effort to obtain Beehive springs and their smaller retainers to fit my TS head. There may be something available from the MC world.
The goal would be excellent valve control without the high seat pressure, harmonics, and mass of conventional dual springs.
If I may accomplish this I believe it would also reduce the rate of cam/follower wear.
I may also have the rockers TiN or other coated for smoother action/less friction.
Has to remain a budget build, I've already gone crazy on a "327" Chevy V8.
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Been tracking my order of large parts.
Looks like they are in the air, "Departed Stansted GB". :)
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Most of my parts order arrived today.
Trailing arm is trailing, hopefully it will be here tomorrow.
Wossner pistons look very good and feel pretty light.
does not look like I will be able to remove anything from the crowns due to pocket milling on the bottom side.
My only gripe is the "No Way I use those!" wrist-pin retainers.
They will have to be replaced with spiro-locs, or maybe nylon buttons.
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I've never had a properly installed wire piston pin clip come out. I have had three different sets of spiral locks fail. In all three cases I had the pistons machined for wire clips and no further problems. I won't use spiral locks ever again.
Nice looking pistons BTW. Compression will be high!
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If available I have never heard of Nylon buttons failing.
Spiro-Loc can be a pain to install but I am surprised to hear of their failure.
Salve Sacco claims that the Renault TS head design is "So good" that I should be able to run these pistons on pump gas.
I expect that I will be adding AV-Gas 100LL to street gas for sufficient octane.
One of the reasons I want a second fuel tank.
My home altitude of 3,700' may also help a little.
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It's nice to get new toys!! Great looking stuff! :beerchug:
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Nice looking stuff!
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I run pretty high compression and no problem with local premium.
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What is Canadian premium octane vs US?
Unable to do much with the engine while I wait for additional parts and the machine shop.
So I spent some time converting ring gaps and piston clearance from MM to Inch.
These are file to fit rings so I get to use the tool I bought many years ago.
Rings are also narrow, certainly no extra drag.
I plan to buy a fine grit ball hone as I think the cylinder finish is just a bit course for my liking.
So final assembly may be more on the loose side than tight.
But I've always understood that to be the safer direction with forged pistons.
When I told Salv Sacco my target HP was 125 he assured me that I should reach that easily with these components and a decent cam.
I see the factory kits were rated for up to 160HP so I guess my goal is still fairly mild.
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I like to run 93/94 RON. Sometimes I can only find 91 RON and it pings a wee bit on that though only at full throttle low rpm.
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Around here 91 RON is the best I may buy at the regular pumps.
$7.50 Gal. gets me 100 RON race fuel.
Not sure of current 100 LL Av Gas current price.
I used to have a Fiat 850 with very high compression while living at sea level.
No issues so long as I ran a 50/50 mix with Av Gas.
If I didn't the rings broke.
I learned to be very careful of my fuel mix.
Hoping my 3,700' altitude brings my effective compression down to only 11-1.
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Trailing arm arrived.
Looks good, but powder paint is not as smooth as regular spray.
This takes care of the large import items.
Now working on fund raising for a trip to San Diego to get the bulky US items.
It is literally freezing out in the shop and about impossible to heat as it is really just a very large tent.
So mostly concentrating on gathering as many parts as possible so that I may jump on this project very hard around mid April of '23.
First drive by end of Aug?
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Of course you want your radius arms to look great but nobody sees them! :)
Good luck on your August drive target!!
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I have a smaller 12'x24' shed made of wood that I have tried to insulate.
Pretty crowded with storage shelving but I did make sure to put in a decent size work bench too.
Only a standard man-door so a bit awkward to bring large or heavy items into but it can be brought to a livable temp during the day.
Going to try to do some of the sub-assemblies there.
As I have read many of our English comrades do their whole restoration in spaces no bigger than this. :o
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I am doing all of mine in a 1-1/2 car garage with a lot of stuff in it, you can do it! I have an electric radiant heater that provides great spot heat!
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Having made noise about my shed I decided to put it to the test.
Small propane ceramic heater gets it to near 60º F, a bit less once the sun goes down.
Small task, hmm, let's get a look at the carbs!
They look to have been in excellent shape prior to the car sitting for several years.
Now they have dark brown 'Fuel Varnish' in the bottoms.
I need to figure out if these use the leather shaft seals or not.
From the numbers they are probably original to an Alfa Romeo Spider.
Made a list of my jets and chokes.
Chokes 33, Aux Venturi 4.5, main jet 105, emulsion tube F15.
For the most part my jetting appears to be 'In range' but a 135 main jet and 4.0 auxiliary venturi would be more typical for a 400cc per cylinder (Now 1595cc) engine.
Billings MT where my car came from is 3,373' above sea level.
On checking my home is 4,377' and in a valley so to go anywhere I may frequently climb to around 5,000'.
Of course if I ever wanted to get to CA some of the passes are 14,000'!
Nice that Webers let you change most jets at the side of the road. ;)
Maybe I will replace the ash-tray with an altimeter.
So I have increased displacement a little, compression as well, and another 1,000' of elevation.
More displacement needs more fuel, higher compression wants more fuel, higher altitude richen's mixture.
These should be a cinch to configure! ::)
I also found time to mark the mis-match between my intake manifolds and the head ports.
Plan is to 'Match' them.
But I found a WTH? issue there as well.
I am completely baffled as to why anyone would cut down one intake mounting ear.
They did add another mounting bolt hole but there is no matching hole in the head.
It seems I will be looking for new Weber mounting seals too.
Of course these are not the common sort as used for TC's.
It appears the Payen head gasket set I have is for a wedge engine.
Anyone need it?
And finally, I find myself a little concerned that I will be trying to run-in a fresh engine with carbs that have not been fully sorted in advance. :headbanger:
Pics below include the functional but too ugly to use trailing arm.
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I think even new DCOEs have leather seals. Your carbs probably have brass throttle shafts which are fragile. You might want to upgrade to steel shafts and the newer sealed bearings but that is not a task for the weak at heart because it requires you to drill the hole in the shaft to locate the accelerator pump lever (at least that would give me pause).
You should at least replace the leather seals since they can get brittle over time and make sure sure the bearings are packed with good grease.
I’m not sure why your flex mounts would be different from those used on a TC. I think the same soft mounts are used everywhere. They come in different flavors (plastic mounts that incorporate an O-ring on either side or aluminum mounts with “O-rings” that are molded on and maybe there are others) but they do the same thing.
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I already have the steel throttle shafts.
Might be a past upgrade.
Mounting rubbers are pictured above the manifolds.
I see what appears to be the same manifolds still for sale so the rubbers should be available.
Unless they are silly expensive I will buy extras.
I need to find a Good aluminum welder to repair one manifold.
Spent a lot of time researching my jetting and chokes.
33 chokes may be a wee bit ambitious for casual street driving but the car ran well in the Hill-Climb video so I will keep them unless they give problems.
Main jet appears to be undersize and is not the correct way to compensate for altitude by itself.
I will buy a couple more sets, 115, 125, 135.
This will give me a pretty good range cheaper than buying the standard tuning set of five.
Overall my jetting is not unreasonable, it does appear some changes from factory have been made for altitude.
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Got my quote from Delta Cams today.
Welding up all the lobes $200.00, re-grind about $50.00
So half the price of buying a new cam from Cat Cams and no question that it is correct for my engine.
Now working on grind specs.
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Had a long talk with Peter Taft this evening.
He recently sold his Europa/Renault engine race car but shared a lot of knowledge from his several years of ownership. Yes, I made notes!
A shop he recommends here is the US is https://www.vintagesportscar.net (https://www.vintagesportscar.net)
Probably one of the few shops that understand Renault builds.
Located in Woodstock, IL 60098.
In talking with Peter it seems I already have "Gordini" rods so all I need to add are some ARP bolts.
Nice to finally catch a break. :)
He feels that even the Mild cam from Cat is pretty radical for anything but a full race car and will not idle reasonably.
I would like to find the cam specs from an 807G engine to work from.
I recall my old cam being .330" lift.
X 1.5 rockers that is .495" valve lift.
So tonights research is trying to find information from some manuals I have here.
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Found at the Aussie Frogs site, post is only eighteen years old. :o
Not sure if 17G would be the same?
Now I need the casting number for the G cam.
If I have Gordini rods maybe my old cam is Gordini too?
Even if it is it still has to be repaired.
-------------------------------------------
This is off a photocopy from Franco-American Imports in the early 80's, it's was sourced out of the renault racing manual for 12/15/17. picture below.
7701452043 - R12G
Inlet Valves
opens BTDC 40 deg
closes ABDC 72 deg
Exhaust Valve
opens BBDC 72 deg
closes ATDC 40 deg
7700524884 - 1600cc Racing
Inlet Valves
opens BTDC 53 deg
closes ABDC 83 deg
Exhaust Valve
opens BBDC 83 deg
closes ATDC 53 deg
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Another cam suggestion from Salv Sacco.
A lobe profile that gives 290 – 296 duration somewhere close to these dimensions – (at cam lobe not at valve)
Total lobe height 0.285 – 0.290” lift
54 degrees from peak - .070” - .075”
If that can be ground at 108 LCA and using a theoretical rocker ratio of 1.52:1 and a valve clearance of .015” you should see something very close to these figures:-
Total valve lift = 0.425”
Lift at TDC = 0.099”
Set cam timing to show either an equal lift on both inlet and exhaust at TDC, or with .005” - .010” more on inlet than exhaust.
I find this gives a smooth idle, really strong mid-range with a 7K peak.
Start line RPM I guess would be around 4500RPM
All the above is based on what I have used and it works for me!
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The 17G used either the 807-12 or 807-13 engine. Cams were not mild but not particularly radical either. IF you are looking for an engine on the "racier" side but still streetable, I would go with Sal's advice.
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Hey, Richard,
Yeah, I expect Salv knows what he's talking about.
The R12G cam spec of 40/72/72/40 is the same spec as came in the R17G / R17TS and is entirely streetable as one might expect coming from the factory as volume road cars – though the R12G itself was't a large volume.
I'm told that forum member, StephenH uses the higher spec 53/82/83/53 in a 1596 engine and his car is apparently used happily on the road. Maybe send him a PM?
In general, it seems most of the 807 performance cams favour long durations but with more modest lift. Perhaps that's also a nod to taking lifter wear/damage into account.
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A couple of folk have painted the push rods as the weakest link and no superior replacement available.
I have also been told that too high an RPM begins to flex the rockers.
Also that a shaved head can mess with valve-train geometry.
Rockers are apparently 1.52 ratio so even modest lift at the cam goes over
.400 at the valve and these are small high rev engines.
I have been pointed to Dema Elgin as doing a very successful grind.
So now it seems I have several profiles to work with, some have more data available than others.
I have also been warned away from the current Euro cam sources due to quality issues.
Delta Cam guys will not be back until Monday.
I will organize my notes and send them an email to look over before our next conversation.
One thing I hope they can do is figure out what my current profile is.
Since I have G rods and pistons maybe I already have a G cam too?
I hope I am not the only one doing a TS and that this thread will help others.
I will also reach out to StephenH.
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Custom pushrods are readily available, just google.
It is actually very easy to get these engines to spin 8K+ but they won't hold together.
The weak links are the crankshaft and the cam/follower faces. At high rpms the crank will develop stress cracks. How fast depends on how high you go. I would suggest after 7500, you are on borrowed time. Cam/follower wear increases dramatically was well. If it is a full race engine, and you drive it as such, you can just consider them consumables: say 500 to a 1000 kilometres between full overhauls if you want to avoid grenading.
Naturally, that is bat-crap-crazy for a street engine. If you keep to a 6500 rpm redline, you will be ok. Often up there and you will get some extra cam/follower wear but the crank will be fine.
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Began cleaning my block today.
Outside cleans easily, are these blocks die-cast?
Not sure what to use to remove rust staining from the water jacket area of the block.
Pulling out all of the varied size pipe cleaners for oil passages.
Noticed that three of the main cap bolts go clear through the block so will need sealer.
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Yes, die-cast.
One of those phosphoric acid based rust removers works OK on ally. It will etch the ally slightly but it's not savage or catastrophic like hydrochloric acid. Even so, I don't leave it there for long. But in reality, It's probably not worth much to remove every last trace of rust; just any larger build up or flakey stuff.
The place to check is the liner seats. That's a fairly common place for corrosion to be found.
I'm not aware of sealing issues with those main cap bolts.
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Found my metric Allen wrench to remove oil galley plugs.
Scary to find the one just above the oil filter only finger tight. :o
I'm always surprised to find so many bolts loose throughout an engine and none with any sort of Loc-Tite.
These have copper washers but clearly those do not work as locking washers.
I will get some more parts solvent in the morning.
Maybe mag wheel cleaner will work well to clean the inside water jacket?
Once it is looks clean I will use a pressure washer.
Then go after it again with solvent, brushes, and oversize pipe cleaners before a second power wash.
The best news for this block is that it does not have any water corrosion damage.
Also got my rear uprights cleaned up.
Have a minor weld repair to be done on one.
It would be fine as is but I'm being finicky.
Plan is to get them aluminum powder coated so easier to keep clean.
The butchered intake manifold is really annoying me.
It could be repaired but I am going to see if I may buy a single instead of a full set.
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A French parts site with English text.
Too bad they do not list prices on-line.
Also very few pics.
http://www.gbsalpine.com/english/a110/catalog/p0016mot.html
They have some interesting pieces, Ti. valve spring retainers, forged piston sets(By whom?) aluminum pulleys, aluminum oil pan and baffle plate.
They also have a lot of standard engine parts.
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Re your intake manifold, I recall some engines have that mounting stud in a different place but I can't remember why that is.
I think you need those Ti spring retainers . . ;)
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Cannot "Hot-Tank" aluminum even if such were available around here, and there are no Cold-Tank facilities either.
So I spent the whole day cleaning my block.
Solvent and brushes, solvent and pipe-cleaners, then pressure washed.
Still unhappy with the amount of brown mineral coating on the water jacket so tried the soda blaster.
That removed about a third of it, that mineral scale is hard stuff.
Then I remembered my air powered scale removing tool.
It worked pretty well, only traces of the scale remain.
Then power washed it again and blew out all the holes and passages.
Now clean enough to check cylinder heights.
I will wash it again before final assembly.
Also determined that the head-gasket I have is probably correct except that it is too small in diameter for this big bore kit.
My shopping list is growing.
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"Nothing can be simple".
Tried to put one of the new sleeves into the block.
Very tight fit, hard to remove from even half-way down.
Well Duh, I should measure the old ones first. :headbanger:
The old drop right in, a little loose actually.
The difference in Dia. is .0018"-.0020".
Another specification to look for, how tight are they supposed to be?
I would assume (Oh THAT word!) a snug slip-fit to be correct?
Any actual movement seems bad, but pounding them in and out seems REALLY bad.
Pretty sure I can massage just a hair off using the lathe.
I am going to number them, then I will hand-fit each one.
Correct plan?
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The early shimmed sleeves had 82mm spigots and later 82.5mm. I thought this applied only to 1470 engines.
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Difference of .051mm between sets.
82.4810mm is just a bit tight.
82.4306mm are just a bit loose.
I expect the issue is related to a couple of decades passing and the cylinders not being made to my specific block.
I would work on this tonight but it's COLD in the shop and that would throw off my fitting efforts.
The next argument gets to be the shims.
Paper came with the cylinders but some folk insist they are junk and should be replaced by steel shims and gasket sealer.
Shims are narrow so I have no convenient way to make them from steel.
I have not heard of a source for steel shims.
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Ok, I've just been through all three of the manuals I have.
Lotus, Haynes, and Renault.
None of them give any description for how loose/tight the sleeves should be in the block. So it is assumed they are always correct. :FUNNY:
Description from other rebuilds often refer to sleeves falling out when disassembling.
So when it is warmer tomorrow I will try to remove about .001" and see how they fit.
I do not want to have to fight them but I think I would be happy with no side play either.
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Dunno Richard.
In my limited experience, they've all been pretty consistent. They usually go in as a snug push fit because we need to juggle them around to get the protrusion even.
With that said, a mate is currently commissioning a new engine and he said the other night that a couple of sleeves were rejected as being too loose. And that's on a 1596 retail piston/liner kit probably produced in the 90's.
Hmmm . . paper/velum seals seem to work fine for most folks.
If you're referring to Frans, I believe he's using a copper head gasket together with those protruding rings machined into the top face of the liners. That's a full race engine and my guess is he's looking to achieve tighter control over head clamping.
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Is the block cold as you describe you garage as very cold. Maybe bring the block up to actual room temperature (70+°) before doing any machining.
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Aluminum has double the thermal expansion and contraction of steel... I think JB has a valid point!
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About 55º F. when I was trying this.
Thinking the block is coming inside today, so 68º.
This would be less of an issue if the sleeves did not have to go in and out several times for adjustment.
At least with this bore the pistons may be fit from the top.
I figured out a couple of ways to make good steel shims but no longer have an EDM machine.
There are other ways but the time needed to make tooling gets ridiculous.
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Ok, this is now an official Kitchen Table build. ;D
At 70º+ everything goes together normally.
My liners without shims are dead flat with the top of the block.
Naturally no guide to shim thickness was included but they are color coded.
White seems the thinnest, orange and black seem to be the same but I am sure they are not.
Someone commented that they "Just use all three".
Lotus wants more protrusion than Renault, .005" - .0075".
I know I saw the color code somewhere but cannot seem to find it now.
Going to see about a more solid setup for my dial indicator.
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Cylinders shimmed!
.007" to .008", I do not see getting any closer than that.
Also ordered my fine grit ball-hone today.
Once I have touched up the bores I will be able to measure and adjust ring gaps.
Need to get the odd bits ordered for assembly.
Copper seals, flywheel lock tab, correct head gasket, bearings.....
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"Nothing can be easy-2"
Trying to measure my crank journals.
Haynes manual gives specs but not tolerance for out of round.
Also no bearing clearance.
Lotus book seems to have the same information.
I need to replace my antique 2"-3" Mic.
As near as I can read it I have .0007 to .0013 wear depending on where I measure.
Getting a crank ground .010" undersize is now a real pain.
The best guys are all dying or retiring, waiting for a new hip, etc.
Younger guys are not taking up the business as the bulk of work is being obsoleted with new Chinese replacement parts.
Not sure I want to trust a shop that is high production SBC/SBF oriented.
There has to be someone good who is not backed up six months, right?
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Here's the 807 engine spec section of my much worn R17 manual:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-dwthvJG/0/X4/i-dwthvJG-X4.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-G5MPxPw/0/X4/i-G5MPxPw-X4.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-HvG5fqL/0/X4/i-HvG5fqL-X4.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-T62kGk4/0/X4/i-T62kGk4-X4.jpg)
807-12 spec from a R17G, Bosch D-Jet, Euro spec
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Here's the 807-20 engine spec section of my R12G manual:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-7xJrQ99/0/a2bd7f7f/X4/IMG_5784-X4.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-Jn44rQN/0/061f39d0/X4/IMG_5785-X4.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-LVfNwCD/0/089dd83c/X4/IMG_5786-X4.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-mNrkBWQ/0/97455533/X4/IMG_5787-X4.jpg)
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Copied into a folder.
Still not seeing some of the specs I would expect.
Sent a note to Salv hoping he will know.
I tend to want perfection so a regrind seems likely.
IF I may find a competent shop to do it.
Also plan to get it all balanced.
Local first rate shop no longer wants to do "Antique" engines so I have to find another.
Picking up my rods tomorrow, the pistons have been removed.
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Need to get the odd bits ordered for assembly.
Copper seals, flywheel lock tab, correct head gasket, bearings.....
In case you missed them, flywheel bolts too.
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R16 shop has them at e5.00 each.
Plus shipping and duty of course.
Alpine America may have them, just impossible to tell from their site.
Pretty common item so there should be others.
If I have to import them I intend to grab at least three sets.
Lock-plates too.
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Coolant tubes, gearshift, E-Brake cables, trailing arm mounts, and engine mounts now removed.
This leaves very little to have a completely stripped chassis.
So far I have not found any need for repairs.
Once I get the front suspension and closing plate off I will know for certain.
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Excellent.
Now's the time to weld the lower junction between the backbone and the T which is hidden under that aft 'flap' of sheet steel under the foot wells.
On those flywheel bolts, somewhere back in a distant memory someone said that Volvo bolts are the same - stretch bolts.
But, yes, probably not too difficult to find.
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Chassis is finally very nearly stripped. :)
Front suspension is off.
Right side rack mount is being obstinate.
The bolts are seized in the mounts.
Letting it sit overnight after applying Kroil penetrant.
I think this car has been restored once before.
Then it saw little use before being put into covered storage.
I see no chassis rust.
I do see a patch or two with one looking like it may have been for the purpose of doing the T reinforcement.
Hoping to be able to take it to the commercial pressure washer tomorrow.
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That's great news! I don't know how adventurous you are but if you're game, I would advise that you look into ways to give more access to the steering u-joint. Hopefully you'll only need to get in there once but even if that's true, having more room there makes dealing with it a lot easier. Of course, it pays dividends each time you need to get there.
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I curse both lack of past anti-seize use and very loose hardware pretty equally.
The mixed and loose hardware leaves me wondering if the DPO was careless or rushed?
I will be replacing a lot of hardware with stainless and using anti-seize as well as safety wire.
I do not want to add any additional holes to the chassis and will be looking for more rubber plugs.
Chassis is not perfect but certainly excellent for my daily driver build.
Worst case is that I may have to drill-out the two rack mount bolts.
DPO did rebuild the front suspension and brakes just before the car was parked.
I will certainly be going to a dual circuit MC at the least but really want dual MC's and a bias bar.
A balmy 36º F. in the shop but with a small propane heater nearby I persevered. ;)
Looking forward to actually putting parts back ON once the chassis is painted.
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Chassis is finally stripped of everything but the copper heater tubes. :D
Hope to take it to a coin-op pressure washer in the morning.
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I hope your pressure washer has hot water!
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Need to figure out which paint to use on the chassis.
Powder painting is not practical and there are some downsides to it.
Do not want cheap spray-can paint after all this work.
So probably black epoxy enamel if I can get some that will apply decently without having to wait until late April.
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POR-15 is a popular choice. A friend used it on his Seven frame recently. He brushed it on but you can apparently spray it as well. It cures best in a humid environment but it works best to be applied to bare metal. It is sensitive to UV so a top coat to protect the POR-15 is generally recommended. Here is an FAQ: https://por15.com/pages/faqs and a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ckBJxW6mU.
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What color were the frames when they left the factory?
Is appears the bottom layer is grey with a layer of black over that.
In some areas the chassis has the original yellow body color.
Yellow under the R&P mounts too.
Only damage to the frame appears to be from ignorant "Mechanics" using a floor jack at poor locations.
I've already straitened most of that.
A couple of small cracks in the flanges of the Y section to TIG up.
I should probably add a gusset there too.
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Yes, add a gusset. Cracks show you where the stresses are.
Chassises were only body colour if there was overspray.
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TC frames were black. I suspect Sw frames were also.
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Yep, black for the S2 as well.
For chassis paint I used red oxide primer and an alkyd enamel because it's supposed to be oil resistant and can be touched up if needed. That was followed by a generous 'sloshing' of old school fish oil to get into all the inner crevices and folds in the tin.
I reckon surface preparation is the single most important factor and often glossed over (see what I did there) affecting corrosion protection and longevity no matter what paint is chosen.
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There was no primer on my chassis and looked like they slapped paint on it with a wide paint brush….and that was the way it came from the factory…
I used two coats of Ospho, followed by two coats of tractor primer then two coats of tractor black, figured if it will stay on a tractor it should stay on a car….way better coverage than original at least.
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Today was warm enough to pressure wash my chassis.
Most of the black paint came off but the grey primer is still good in most areas.
So I hope to only soda-blast as needed.
Nice to wash all the old anti-freeze out of the inside of the chassis.
From this point on anything I accomplish should count toward reassembly. ;D
Also putting in an order with Salv for the balance of engine parts.
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Email sent to GBS Alpine for prices on some of their tricky parts.
Fingers crossed that they are not too exorbitant.
I will pass along their reply.
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Ti. Valve spring retainers, e,254.00 a set.
I may do this if I cannot find the Beehive springs I really want.
Adjustable cam gear, e,165.00
Definitely getting this.
Timing chain kit, e,191.00
Not sure if that is a good price.
Should be available in North America.
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Is this the same timing chain kit? 150 euros from Renault16Shop
https://www.renault16shop.com/1082a
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134€ from MecaParts and that probably includes taxes that would be excluded from an export sale.
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When I buy the adjustable timing gear I do not need the fixed gear.
So hoping to be able to buy without it, or get an offset in price.
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The last one I bought was a 'Renold' brand chain.
Might be available from a regular power transmission outfit.
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Two bags of soda to blast my frame.
Yes, I will be doing some repairs. :(
Not "Major" but required.
What gauge is the chassis metal?
Fame is not perfectly clean as the Soda does not take off rust.
But I have chemicals that should finish it up.
I am moving it back inside and putting it on waist high stands for a more comfortable work height.
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I believe it is 16 gage
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Mic. says .069", which I have. :)
I cut three small windows in the chassis head where the rust pitting was very deep. "Probably" would have been fine but it would have bothered me forever.
Also two shallow notches in the rear Y on each side to replace the flange that got buggered up when the DPO welded some sort of additional brackets on.
I will make patches for these and weld them in, then grind flush.
Been a while since I have welded thin steel so there will be some practicing first.
Oh, and the new HF right angle air grinder lasted about half an hour. ::)
Pretty pleased to make visible progress. ;D
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Once the chassis is clean the more you look the more flaws you will find. :(
Fortunate for me that most are minor.
Some appear to have been from stress as they appear on both sides in nearly identical locations.
The one near the "Y" may be due to careless jacking, it was only an issue on one side.
I can say with certainty that just welding a crack is not a permanent solution, it just returns in the same spot, or right next to the weld. :o
Most of the cracks I repaired had been welded before.
My solution is a series of gusset plates.
They are welded around the perimeter and also plug welded.
I am confident the chassis will not crack again at these repairs.
I will do a little more dressing around the edges but there really is no hiding the repairs. Good thing this is MY car and not intended to be flipped. ;D
Pics below.
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Yes, cracks appear where the legs of the Y change from angled to parallel. My theory is that a stress concentration arises from a combination of the weld and that small 90° return at each end of the gusset.
I welded the cracks but also made longer gussets (310mm) with 'softer' returns.
Hopefully this get's around the reoccurrence of a crack at the original welding site and that the longer softer gussets make for a smoother transition of the torsional loads.
As I say, that's my theory but I've never built a space shuttle, so if any structural engineers have some input, that'd be welcome.
Also, I'll be redoing some of those cocky s#it welds and just hope Turbo doesn't see them . . . ;D
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They look fine from here Gavin......
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Ponied up for two quarts of gloss black POR-15 and a can of 3M 08852 Cavity Wax Plus for inside the chassis.
Also got the extended nozzle kit for the wax.
This wax should be excellent for inside the back-bone and frame head once all other efforts are complete.
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Five gallons of Holdtight 102 arrived today.
I may now rinse soda-blasting properly. :D
Mix is 100-1 to 50-1 so this should be enough for more than one car.
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Musing on buying a Spydercars frame head to replace what I have.
I can remove most of the rust but know I can never get it all. :headbanger:
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Spidercars wants to know if I am buying the frame head and they have one in stock.
I need a couple more days to answer that as I am still deciding to repair mine or not.
Delta Cams called, my cam is ready.
Not sure what they did for the grind.
I had thought we were going to discuss it and make a decision after the welding was done.
But they have already ground it to "Europa Gordini Specification", whatever that is.
I will get a cam card with it so specs will not be a mystery.
Looking like it will probably be a bit milder than I had hoped for.
Only $108.00 so probably the only inexpensive item on the entire car.
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If the you buy the frame piece from Spyder how will you ensure you have it aligned properly before welding?
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I have a 4'x10' flat steel build table.
I also have the specifications from the manual.
So it becomes a simple matter of measurements before welding.
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I think I just committed to buying a new frame head. :headbanger:
The remaining scale between layers and slight warping as a result leaves me really wanting new metal.
There is a decent chassis for sale from another member but it is a long trip so about the same cost when done, plus the work of removing surface rust.
With a new frame head, I will have all NEW steel up front.
I will treat it for rust as the original should have been if cars of the day were not assumed to be disposable.
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Good choice!
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Yaaaa, guess which way the exchange rate has gone while I hesitated.
Total about $1,600.00 plus whatever the US Gov. nails me for "Duty", so much for escaping the VAT. :-X
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Got pics from Spydercars this morning.
As soon as I get the invoice the new frame head will be purchased.
It is their upgraded design which appears stronger and less prone to rusting from the inside out.
It also appears to make access to the steering u-joint much simpler.
I am also following up with the on-line metal shop from another thread.
I have a lathe and welders so anyone needing an original design replacement frame head at less than half the cost of the Spydercars piece let me know.
Not sure of lead time yet.
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Got my cam back today.
Not sure what I actually got for the grind, so far as I know there is no such thing as a Lotus Gordini grind.
I had expected to an agreement on what the grind was to be before it was done.
I sent specs for discussion but had no communication until Delta called to say it was ready.
The heel relief we had discussed was not done, so I guess I will have to do it.
I think I have to call them to confirm the lobes are IE, IE, as the TS head requires.
EI, IE wedge head pattern would really infuriate me as that would require doing it over again.
Pic of the cam card below, I never really learned to make heads or tails of such specs.
Anyone who can interpret this for me please help.
Overlap is 101.4
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Decided to try using a caliper to check the lobe order as Ex. is shorter.
It seems the order is correct but the base circle and lift vary widely.
I suppose that might be expected of a reground cam.
Clearly a caliper or Mic. are not the best way to check this.
I will have to set up some Vee blocks and a dial indicator.
I've sent the specs to Salv Sacco for his input.
I am also going to try to figure out the best way to relieve the heel for lifter clearance. Stock there is an issue of the lifter foot rubbing the blank.
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Salv says this cam grind is a bit extreme with valve lift at .46655" - 11.85mm
I will probably send it back to be tamed a bit even if I have to pay again.
As I recall 10mm valve lift is thought to be the limit for a street car?
Welded the frame patches in, which confirmed how thin the surrounding steel is.
Without a copper backer avoiding blow-through was hard.
The electrolysis bath also revealed addition rust-through near the drivers side lower fulcrum pin.
The electrolysis did not remove all the heavy scale but did break it up and soften it.
Tapping on the sheetmetal released a lot of scale, but scale is missing steel. :(
I've sent Spydercars another email asking for an invoice so that I may pay before the exchange rate gets even worse.
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I sent my cam to Salv to be reground. I described what I wanted and he picked the grind. Worked beautifully.
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Really should not have to send a cam overseas for grinding, the postage would be ridiculous.
I have to find my notes and contact Delta in the morning.
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Thanks for the clue about MAC translation.
Makes it MUCH easier to peruse Mecaparts site.
They are not fond of Google translate and have asked that I just send messages in English.
I need to practice with the MAC translate.
So far it works pretty well for websites but not email I wish to send.
Finally got the Spydercars frame head paid for, had to switch CC as the first does not work well internationally.
It will be a relief to get it installed.
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Rich, I feel your pain..
I googled the translator. Running an apple phone most of the time and main computers running windows so I agree translations are tiresome.
Both of us will be learning.
Dakazman
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Spydercars frame-head is in transit.
Seems Fed-Ex have the same issue getting items to move in the UK that they have here.
After three days I hope it is now on a plane across the Atlantic.
I did make some minor progress today as I got the chassis onto the build table.
Found my device for checking and duplicating angles too.
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That's a neat angle gauge though I'd kinda want to reference from either the top or bottom of the backbone.
Perhaps the gauge design doesn't really permit that?
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The flange on the end of the back-bone really sets the angle.
So long as I remove the old head carefully without damaging the right-angle bends I should be set.
Once I remove the front flap I will be able to set the back-bone directly onto the table for a more accurate check.
I will also take a measurement from a conventional protractor.
I am SO looking forward to beginning to reassemble parts!
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Cold snowy day so I fired up a couple of heaters and went to work.
I took a lot of pics to create a "How to" thread if there is interest.
The new Spydercars frame-head is finally in the US so should be here next week.
With the old head off there is access to the inside of the back-bone.
This operation confirmed that Lotus did not weld the lower edge of the back-bone to the frame-head.
I see why, there really is no good way to reach that area unless you cut the lower flap out of the way.
I am also surprised to find so few spot welds and no plug welds where they might have helped.
So grinding the edge of weld joints does a pretty good job of separating the pieces.
I am saving the old frame-head as a model for my effort to assemble a couple of stock type as spares for anyone needing them.
A couple of pics below.
Pic 1, choose your weapons.
The angle grinder with a thin blade cuts great but throws a lot of sparks.
The saw gets into the tight spots.
Pic 2, initial cuts which also provide saw access.
Pic 3, Lotus did not weld the bottom joint.
Pic 4, with the welds ground flush it becomes possible to pry the remains of the old frame-head away from the backbone.
Pic 5, I will do the final clean up once the new part arrives.
Pic 6, The remnant.
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Good pics, Richard.
I've salted a couple of them away for when someone notes their chassis has developed cracks at the lower junction. At that point, I'll have forgotten who actually took the pics, so feel free to chip me when that happens.
The T separation came out much cleaner than I would have expected, so well done you.
Gonna replace the heater pipes?
P.S. 28° C (82.4° F) and humid here. 8)
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I would like alloy tubes but shipping such bulky items is prohibitive.
It may be cheaper to buy the correct dies for my JD2 and bend my own.
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Now is a good time to paint the inside of the backbone.
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Yesterday was a good day to remove the old frame-head, the new one arrived today. ;D
What did not arrive is any sort of instruction for installation. ???
Pics on the Spyder site do not make anything clear either.
I will ask for some pics or drawings.
I will take the parts into my shop today and hope that it becomes obvious but would really prefer a drawing or pics.
I know some here have Spyder chassis, maybe a few pics can be shared.
The piece is very nice, there are no exposed lapped joints as the original had.
As an assembly of boxed sections it also looks a bit stronger and more rigid than the original.
I have not weighed it yet.
Pics once I get it into the shop and mocked up.
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Instructions: Align it and weld it....sounds easy but harder in real life....
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The full assembly is not a single part and the shape differs from the old head.
Six pieces and offering them up to the backbone is not making correct assembly obvious.
It may be that I do not need all of the pieces as my backbone and flanges are in good shape?
I will try to figure it out, I have the old head as reference.
A lengthy web search turned up a lot of pics and video of Standard frame heads being replaced but none of the Spyder part onto an original backbone.
I did find a few of this head on the Spyder back-bone.
Pic 1, My new parts.
Pic 2, A Spydercars chassis. I cannot tell for certain from this angle if it is original or theirs.
Pic 3, A Spydercars chassis frame-head installed on their chassis.
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Hmm, I think I would ask them.
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I have, waiting on their reply.
Matching the old with the new it seems clear that the bottom sits flush with the lower edge of the back-bone which makes sense.
But the upper and lower rear faces of the new head are not parallel to each other.
So when I set the lower flush with the end of the backbone the upper gets a gap. ???
The new head is also a little thinner front to back than the old one.
I think I have figured out the trimming required for the upper mounting plate so I will be able to work on that right away.
I will try to print some of the chassis drawing to make measurements.
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Ok, I’m not a welder so what you’re doing is WAY beyond me but it seems that this page (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/s2work/diagrams/index.htm) should give you what you need and then I expect you’re already familiar with it so maybe I’m illuminating my ignorance. Just in case you missed it, you now have the link.
The one thing that seems to be missing is the angle of the ‘T’ to the backbone which I believe is 2 degrees.
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Thats the one I was looking for.
Printed it out but not as detailed as I had hoped.
Frame-head angle is known from the flange at the end of the backbone.
The question becomes how the upper gap is dealt with.
Too cold to continue tonight and I hope to have some answer from Spidercars in the morning.
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The angle is more like 3 degrees. Whatever the castor setting is…
Went and checked: 3° +- 30'
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I think I may finally be past the point of dismantling anything significant.
From here on out it "should" all be reassembly. 8)
In trying to get a grip on the budget to complete the restoration, not including paint, I came across an old thread, What does your Europa look like *today* ?
Horrified to have to say that "Today" mine looks like less than a pile of parts since even the chassis is in pieces. :-[
I also went through several tire threads, it looks like I will use Toyo 888R 185/60's all around for performance driving days.
I will get another set of less expensive standard tires to fit my Cosmic rims for car shows or times when I want to preserve the Toyo's.
Target now is to be on the road for no more than an additional $5K.
So the rear disc brake conversion is a Go, front upgrade has to wait and may never really be needed.
Lots of details to be done but I have many of the parts just waiting for warmer weather.
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Spydercars replied with additional pics.
They are not as clear as I had hoped as everything is painted black, which hides detail pretty well. :headbanger:
I am going to mock mine up and send them pics for confirmation that I have it right before any welding.
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Is that porosity in the lower right weld in the first picture?
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No porosity but I will hit some of the weld beads with a sanding pad before paint.
Still no additional reply from Spydercars to clarify the details of installing the new T piece.
I am going to finish washing up, tack welding, and painting the inside of the chassis tomorrow.
From there I would very much like to put the new frame head on.
Can anyone supply a pic of the attachment of a Spydercars T section where it is welded to the original chassis?
They supplied two tapered and angled plates.
I am unsure if I am to remove the original flange or not before welding them in place.
I really just need a good rear side view, the top and bottom procedure is clear enough.
One thing I plan to do differently than Lotus or Spydercars (From what I can tell) is to plug-weld the attaching plates near the backbone rather than just along the edge.
I believe this will be much stronger and reduce the leverage applied to the joint.
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OK, original end flanges are removed per latest instruction.
Orientation of the new flanges is confirmed.
Just a little more paint removal while the frame is light and easy to move, then I will be ready to put the new head back on. :)
The Spydercars head is not fit as the original was.
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Got a moderate size box from Salv Sacco today.
This puts me a lot closer to assembling my engine.
I now have a correct head gasket, adjustable cam gear, and Maxspeeding rods as well as mundane gaskets and seals.
Still need the head reworked and the crank ground but I will take any progress I can get.
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Did the final rust and old paint removal from the Lotus frame.
The most difficult areas to clean are around the transmission mount that fills with crud/gear oil, and the base of the Y where it joins the back bone that had a thick layer of original yellow paint and old oil.
The sand blaster was not being effective at the Y so I hit it with my scaling tool.
That helped a lot and the sand blaster finished it up.
Got my POR-15 cleaner and prep from Summit Racing.
I will vacuum and rinse the sand out before applying these.
Tomorrow is supposed to over 50ºf, so I hope to paint the inside of the frame with POR-15 Black.
The outside has to wait until I get the new frame head in place.
I did use the sand blaster along all the welded frame head seams to remove scale.
Really hoping to have the frame repairs done this weekend.
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POR-15 has been applied to the inside of the chassis at last. :)
Even with the frame head off this was not easy.
Had to brush it on, not a task I want to repeat soon.
Weather was not ideal but I cannot wait months.
If it cures a bit slower that is fine.
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Hmm, POR-15 seems to have cured overnight.
Got the new end flanges welded on today.
The hardest part of doing this is finding a good surface to measure the 3º angle from.
I hope to get the frame head welded on tomorrow.
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Behind schedule as always.
There is an old saying about perfectionism. ::)
I have got this as good as is reasonably possible without information and tooling that is not really available.
One delay was that I had to space the chassis about 1/4" above the table to align the frame head properly.
The bottom of the head is not flat, there are also weld beads that push it up off the table when it is tilted to 3º.
I abused some machining parallels to jig it all up.
Finally just about ready to weld, Cleco fasteners so that I do not have to work so hard aligning it again.
I did touch up the POR-15 inside the chassis where it burned off from welding.
I am a believer in plug welds and have added a few to the new flanges.
This way it will not just be an edge holding the head in place.
I have cut and fit the top reinforcement piece and made a couple of small dressing plates.
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Ah, that's what those side pieces were for. Interesting.
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Frame head is fully welded at last. ;D
It may not be perfect but almost has to be much better than the rusty and warped piece I removed.
A Spydercars frame head should be an upgrade, too bad they are somewhat reluctant to sell them as a standard DIY part even if only for export.
My welds are not show quality but I know my penetration is good.
Since the BOTTOM is also welded and the additional tie-plate is in place this will be much stronger than original, no more frame cracks!
I have clean up and inspection to do, then touch up welds as needed.
Once that is done I will weld on the body and pedal mounting plate.
Pics once I have the clean up done.
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8)
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Semi-productive day.
Picked up TR6 engine parts from the machine shop and dropped off the Lotus block, rods, crank, and bearings.
They will measure the bearings to determine how much the crank should be ground rather than just "Assuming" .010".
Probably going to be a long wait for the crank to come back so the sooner it got dropped off the better.
Now I need to give the machine shop my bearing clearances.
My Renault 16 manual does not state any that I can find. :(
The Europa manual says Mains at .0015/.0031 in (.038/.079 mm)
and Rods at .0007/.0228 in (.017/.058 mm). :)
Engine will be high compression and slightly increased displacement.
Nevada is a moderately warm climate at the peak of my driving season and some spirited use is intended.
What would the consensus be for what I will want for oil clearance?
I also got my hacked intake back from being welded up.
Now I will reshape it and add the missing mounting hole.
Tomorrow is predicted to be warmer so I hope to apply seam sealer to the chassis as one more detail to fend off future rust.
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When I'm building an engine, I shoot for 1.5 to 3 thou. More than three, or less than 1.5, and I send it back to the machine shop. This is for a street engine. On a race engine you may want to be a tad "looser".
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Machine shop has been given clearance specs for the crank grind.
I may have the crank back in about a month. :(
Seam sealer has been applied to the chassis so I should be able to paint it at the next warm day.
Any area I could locate that had an exposed gap or adjoining edge got sealed.
If the factory had done this we would have a lot fewer rust issues.
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Top and most of the inside of the Y is painted.
I will have to flip it over to do the rest of it.
I think that after the exterior is all done I am going to experiment with a solvent wand I have to try to get inside the frame head.
No way with a regular spray gun or brush.
Once the POR-15 is fully cured I will also apply Penetrol.
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Very nice! :beerchug:
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Do we know anyone in the US who has the rubber plugs and grommets for the chassis head?
I looked but only RD Ent. appeared to have the grommets, with no mention of the plugs.
I wish Dave Bean Engineering would update their site.
So many of the items shown have not been available for years.
Also on the hunt for S2 hub bearing and u-joints.
Have to assemble the rear hubs before I may complete my readr disc conversion.
It would be nice to have a roller!
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Industrial supply shops sell solid grommets in a variety of sizes. I'm sure McMaster Carr does as well. Most of my holes were taped over from the factory.
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I wish Dave Bean Engineering would update their site.
So many of the items shown have not been available for years.
Also on the hunt for S2 hub bearing and u-joints.
The last time I talked to Ken at DBE he didn’t hold out much hope that the website would be updated but that was before Roberta died. Does anyone know if the “new” (no longer associated with a Bean) DBE is making any changes?
I would think you would be able to find bearings at a bearings supplier or I would expect that DBE stocks them as well as the u-joints. Then you could find out any news about DBE when you order them and you can report back! :)
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DBE are currently only open Mon-Thurs.
I hope to reach them on Monday.
The 31mm bore axle bearings are not available from any of the USA bearing houses.
I hope DBE have what I need.
I refuse to use Chinese parts as I will not risk their too likely failure.
So the big box chain stores are not even being looked at.
I will order from the UK if I must.
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Good to know about Mon - Thursday.
Check my reply on the Technical Articles section about the inner bearing - or rather what Dave says about the inner bearing.
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Painting the bottom of the chassis this morning.
Also found my siphon spray gun originally intended to apply engine cleaner or other chemicals.
It will not apply a fine spray but will reach inside the frame head. :)
Probably going to get some runs from it but that hardly matters inside the box sections.
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Siphon fluid gun worked pretty well.
I also touched up a few thin spots with a brush.
Now that I have to leave the chassis alone for a few days I am going after some of the smaller projects.
Today I port-matched my intake manifolds.
They had a step at the top of the port where the intake manifold was smaller than the head port.
This was crescent moon type of mis-match, the bottom was fine.
I marked the manifold face with a sharpie, then used a sharp U shaped scribe to reach into the port and scribe my line for an exact match.
I used the boring bar on my vertical mill to bore each branch of the manifolds.
Ports are nearly a perfect match now but I still have to do some blending.
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Did the PO run it with the mismatched ports?
Interestingly, your manifolds appear to be of the early type utilising the domed rubber insulators. I always liked that idea but don't know if the rubber parts are available. Still, not too difficult to cobble something similar, I expect.
I now also wonder if the missing/wrong bolt hole location isn't related to this manifold style somehow.
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Yes they did but since I have slightly increased the displacement a better port match can only help.
The existing rubber bits seem to be ok, I will probably apply a smear of Hylomar to the sealing surfaces.
New are available, I have seem them at one of the French suppliers.
I also made a small relief down the middle of the manifold face that spans the distributor boss. It had just a little interference and I want to be assured of a good seal.
Latest challenge is locating all new valves and guides, maybe Ti. spring retainers if I cannot work out the Beehive spring conversion.
The French sites are frustrating, even with translation some do not post prices, or pics, or they take you back to general engine parts rather than remaining within type.
In the morning I will try some US sources but since this is not a TC or even standard Renault I am doubtful of success.
Another thread got me to wondering about identifying the exact model, year, and original application of my head.
Pics of the head and what casting numbers I could find attached.
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Bought a lot of the rear suspension bits I need from Dave Bean Engineering this morning.
Ken confirmed that the business will continue.
The rear flanges and inner bearings will have to come from Lotus Supplies.
Since the 31mm bore inner bearings are a nuisance to get I am buying extra.
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Freezing days with snow flurries so no recent time in the shop.
I have however continued to spend like a drunk cowboy after round-up! ;)
Have to stop that for a while, but when the weather warms up I should be able to jump on the engine, suspension, and body work.
Still waiting for my crankshaft to come back too.
Dash lamination is a maybe as the veneer I have may not be durable due to the backing used.
Any progress is better than none but I am very anxious to get away from this desk and into the shop again.
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Rich,
If I could I'd send you some of this close to 90f temps.
I know its hard to plan weather and your plan of action. No rain here in about a month, so I get a little break from yard work . Finishing up some old projects that I had purchased parts for but didn't have the time to assemble.... its is definitely a struggle. This is why the forum can help, post your concerns and most members will try to offer encouragement and best advice. at least that's what I have learned.
As they say , Keep Moving Forward.
Dakazman
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Concentrating on gathering materials and parts until it gets warmer.
I am about to try to check calibration of my torque wrenches.
I know I have some old free weights around here somewhere.
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Torque wrench calibration is not going well.
So I got my half-shafts apart instead.
With the ends off they are small and light.
I think I will see if the local drive-line shop might be able to make new ones at a good price.
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Your previous post got me looking at videos for checking torque wrenches. There are several that are reasonable. I may be less reasonable as I use an electronic torque adapter from Harbor Freight (https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-drive-25-250-ft-lb-digital-torque-adapter-58706.html?_br_psugg_q=electronic+torque+wrench). It could be argued that I'm just checking one torque wrench against another but it gives me enough confidence to think that my wrench is "close enough."
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Torque wrench calibration is not going well.
So I got my half-shafts apart instead.
With the ends off they are small and light.
I think I will see if the local drive-line shop might be able to make new ones at a good price.
On the halfshafts , keep them matched. At least that was what I was warned about. Balancing I believe.
Dakazman
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If the shafts are balanced, you’ll see the weights, then marking and reassembling in the same orientation is critical. However, half-shafts are usually not balanced as they turn at a much slower speed than a driveshaft by a factor between 3:1 and 4:1. When chasing a lingering high-speed vibration, I had the balance checked on mine. They were well within tolerances and weights not were required.
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Webers are apart.
I noted that one of the leather sealing washers was deformed so possibly leaking.
There are sealed shaft bearings available as an "Upgrade" that I would like to do.
I already have steel shafts.
The search for a source other than feeBay continues.
There are kits for IDF that include new shafts, bearings, screws, and end linkage.
Have not found the same for DCOE. :(
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My favorite place for Weber parts is Pierce Manifolds (https://www.piercemanifolds.com/). Red Line is another option (https://www.redlineweber.com). They are the US Weber distributor. I don’t like their website though. r.d. enterprises has some nice linkages. I wouldn’t change the shafts unless you have to because it involves drilling a hole in the shaft for the accelerator pump linkage. I don’t think the bearings come out easily without taking the shaft out. That being the case, I wouldn’t bother with either unless one of them needs replacing. If I were to use the sealed bearings, I would still use the leather seals with them even though it might not be specifically required as the bearing seals are designed for grease, not air.
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http://www.redlineweber.com works but the link above goes off on a tangent.
Pierce has the IDF kits but I could not locate them for DCOE.
In any case it looks like the 'Web is dead for this so I will make calls on Monday.
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Sorry about the Red Line link. I’m on my iPad and I couldn’t get it to copy the link in my reply so I just “typed” what I thought it was. Glad you found it anyway!
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dellorto.com
They have just about everything.
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Minimal progress today.
I did bead blast and paint my rear uprights using a paint made for mag wheels.
The main reason to paint them is in the hope that they will be easier to clean later.
I had thought of having them powder painted but decided I am too cheap and impatient for that.
I expect the rest of my bearings this week.
Once I have them I should be able to get back to the VW Scirocco rear disk brake conversion.
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Still trying to do at least some small thing every day.
Today I tested my Rotozip tool and located a source for the correct blades.
This will make doing the square switch holes in the dash much easier.
I also taped together the "Bookend" "End-Match" grain for the Birdseye Maple veneer I have.
Working with random pieces so not a perfect match but it still came out well.
After cutting the radio and other holes there will be very little joint visible at the center of the dash anyway.
I am letting my veneer rest between two planks to flatten until I am ready for the next step.
The scary part of this is that the veneer is applied before cutting, so very easy to ruin it.
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If you’re worried about cutting the holes and edges after gluing, there is a knife-in-plastic-holder tool for doing just that. I borrowed one once to do some veneer trimming. It worked great.
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Lots more study to do before I commence laminating. ;)
So far it seems I should only cut the outside perimeter, glove box opening, and glove box door before glueing.
The door gets set into the opening during lamination.
I will be using a vacuum bag for clamping, and Unibond 800 Urea glue.
To avoid edge chipping from the router I will need a very good bond.
Fortunately I believe nearly every edge gets a trim piece of some sort by the time it is all assembled. The exception seems to the rocker switches.
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I believe the biggest untrimmed edge is round the recess where the Speedometer and Rev Counter binnacle? Is mounted in the dash. That's also right in your face every time you drive the car.
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This was the sort of veneer trimming tool I used. But it looks like more of an edge band trimmer.
https://www.woodworkingshop.com/product/vf10000/ (https://www.woodworkingshop.com/product/vf10000/)
But Google mentioned veneer router bits. So I went looking. The top links were to up-cutting bits, which I think would be a bad idea for thin veneer. This one cuts downward.
https://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Down-Cutting-Edge-Trimming-Router-Bit.html (https://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Down-Cutting-Edge-Trimming-Router-Bit.html)
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To avoid edge chipping from the router I will need a very good bond.
After it comes out of the vacuum bag, perhaps apply a couple of coats of 2-pack polyurethane before cutting?
I'm thinking that should saturate and stabilise the veneer and hopefully provide some insurance against chipping. It should also help protect the surface against unintended marking by the router base.
For the switch holes, I gave them an initial coat of polyurethane before the dark brown paint was applied. That way, any overpainting excursions onto the face can be sanded off without issue.
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I think I like the idea of doing some of the finish work before final cutting. :)
Not certain what the top coat will be as I want a semi-satin finish.
I do not like looking into mirror dash faces.
Todays petty progress was to pull the DCOE small parts from the Gunk and put the main bodies in.
In order to soak the main bodies I have to pour three cans of Gunk into a five gallon plastic bucket.
Standing on end this gets them fully covered.
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Forgot to mention that a common woodworkers method is to put down some masking tape to reduce the tear out. I'd do both.
Agreed, mine was a high gloss material and rather too shiny for my liking. I flattened the gloss and buffed it back to something more like a satin.
Marine 2-pack polyurethane is kinda expensive in my part of the world but the hardness, UV resistance and the ability to block it back is essential, I reckon.
Here's one we prepared earlier.
First pic - need to adjust the hinges a little and sunlight is playing some tricks but the actual polyurethane surface was blocked dead flat with wet & dry. The white speckles on the close up shot is dried compound I hadn't cleaned off....
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Well done!! :beerchug:
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Lots of orders arrived today.
I now have the parts to assemble my rear suspension, laminating supplies, and a new router base.
I just need some decent weather to be able to start putting all of this to use.
I also picked up my block and rods from the machine shop.
They measured the actual fitted bearing sizes to have the crank ground.
One more trick I may use on my dash, a layer of Carbon Fiber on the back side to provide a conductive ground.
When I worked on an S2 in Monterrey grounding was the main issue.
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Nothing pic worthy today.
But I do have the hard part of the body rotisserie installed.
Still have to complete the engine bay portion.
I am being cheap and using whatever steel is at hand, will be an ugly setup but should function fine.
Since I made it modular I hope that it will be usable again if I ever do another Europa.
Also bought some dielectric grease to use for the shaft bearings on the DCOE's.
Supposed to be less soluble than regular grease.
Got new leather seals but they are perhaps too thick.
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Another day, another parts order.
New spacers for the rear from RD Ent.
Really want to get the hubs together so I may complete the disc brake conversion.
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After realizing just how much "Fun" assembling the rear hubs will be I decided to turn a scrap stub-axle into a tool.
I turned down the inner bearing shoulder on my lathe so that the bearing just drops on.
I no longer need a press to get it apart.
Now I may use it to easily mock up my disc-brake conversion.
I am a bit surprised that the distance sleeves are such a loose fit on the stub-shafts and nothing to center them.
Perhaps I will fit some "O" rings inside, or am I missing something?
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Richard,
I found that a small cable tie was the right thickness to center them...
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Good to know. :)
Speaking of making tools, I am getting closer to having the rotisserie complete.
I wish I had a junk chassis to modify as that would have been so much simpler.
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RATS!
Too much flex in the forward rotisserie mount.
Going to have to reconfigure it.
Also have another S2 arriving next week.
I will be doing most of the work on it for a friend who bought it from another member here.
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I saw a post somewhere (Facebook?) from someone who used a scaffolding pole to make a rotisseries for a Europa body. The pole goes right the way through the body - through the front grille and through the rear cutout where the license plate would go. You have to make a couple of brackets to attach the front and rear body mounting points to the pole, but then it's relatively easy to find something to hold the ends of the pole.
The other possibility is to use the actual frame and find a non-damaging way to attach brackets to the front and back of the frame. The four suspension pins at the front should be good for this. At the rear, maybe use the two body mounting points and the transaxle mounting point. The tricky part there is making sure the front and rear attachments are co-axial. If they're not quite co-axial then you could stress the body as the whole thing rotates.
Or, is it possible to put a pole right the way through the body and the frame? It probably won't quite fit, but if it did it would be ideal.
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I actually have very good body pick-up from the original mounts.
My issue is that I did not have a single piece if steel long enough to go clear through the car and am too cheap to spend for one.
What I have is flexing at the forward joint.
I had hoped to make this easy to remove with the sections bolted together.
Now giving up on that and doing some more welding, so I will have to cut it apart for removal.
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My latest mod worked, I can now pick the body up and move it around on wheels as well as being able to tilt it for access inside and out. :D
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Nice! Post a pic
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When the rotisserie is not in active use I let the body rest on stands.
This is not a pair of HF engine stands being abused. ::)
Not sure who made this rotisserie but it was not cheap.
When I see home made versions that are not tied together at the bottom its a little scary.
Hydraulic rams let me adjust working height.
Pic of overall setup at rest.
I picked up nearly all of the factory mounts.
Had to add a brace at the forward joint.
Picking up factory mounting points in the tunnel.
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Hmm, a new wrinkle.
Now equipped with a Spydercars frame head.
The original MC mount does not work with it.
No pics or other clue for the fix on Spyders site.
So does anyone know the trick of what MC to use with the Spyder chassis?
I will be running four wheel disc brakes.
Eventually I want dual MC's and a balance bar.
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I'm not quite sure what Lotus were thinking when they added the bell crank arrangement for the master cylinder on the S2, but I guess they were trying to make the brake fluid reservoir accessible while still allowing room for the spare wheel.
If there is a way to attach remote brake fluid reservoirs to the Spitfire master cylinder then that might be one option, possibly with a small spacer if needed. Probably somebody here already knows what'll work (I don't, I'm guessing).
I'm planning to use Wilwoods bolt on balance bar assembly
https://www.wilwood.com/Pedals/PedalProd?itemno=340-16920
The snags (that I know of) are:
- it'll interfere with the spare wheel
- will need to cut out a small amount of GRP
- will need to slightly rework the middle bolt between the closing plate and body, so that it can be tightened & loosened from below as there will be very little clearance between that bolt and the balance bar assembly. I'm thinking I might glass a threaded insert into the body at that point.
- will need to custom make something to close the big hole in the GRP
- will need a custom made backing plate inside the frame instead of the standard item
A spare wheel might still be possible if it is slightly deflated (to be determined). I have a design for the backing plate, I plan to use one of the online laser cutting services to cut that for me.
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I have two “spare tires” in my car: a tire repair kit and a can of Slime.
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I have been looking at parts to fabricate something similar.
Tilton parts appear to be a bit less expensive.
The Spydercars frame head is set up for two MC's, one is for a hydraulic clutch conversion.
I am thinking that this gives me four attachment points for whatever I come up with.
The big issue is that the front and back openings for the brake MC are offset.
Not certain how much misalignment of the rod is acceptable.
I could open the hole on the inside a bit if necessary.
I do want to run a spare for a few reasons.
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I'm not quite sure what Lotus were thinking when they added the bell crank arrangement for the master cylinder on the S2, but I guess they were trying to make the brake fluid reservoir accessible while still allowing room for the spare wheel.
Yes, why is that?
My Type 54 uses a remote brake reservoir on the single circuit system but the Type 65 seems to have similar room on the other side.
Is it not possible to fit the MC directly to the front of the chassis like a Type 54?
Now I'm wondering what they did with the Type 65's sold in the RHD UK market.
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The issues with direct fitment appear to be access once the body is on and that the push rod holes are offset.
In a couple of days I will have another S2 here to look at.
That should make it easier to figure this out.
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[Now I'm wondering what they did with the Type 65's sold in the RHD UK market.
Probably the same as the UK TC's and Specials. These kept single circuit brakes with the master cylinder fastened directly to the front of the chassis/frame and a remote reservoir to the end of production.
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Anyone recognize where this pic may have originated?
Hoping for additional details or views.
Seems I should be able to do similar for my car.
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Anyone recognize where this pic may have originated?
Hoping for additional details or views.
Seems I should be able to do similar for my car.
That's in a twincam; you have a lot more room to fiddle around in an S2 since essentially the front of the chassis is open to the nose of the car (if the closing plates aren't there); in a TC, that area is part of the fiberglass body.
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By my understanding the closing plate is very necessary but can be modified a bit.
If a competent driver ever shows up to transport it I will have another intact S2 here for comparison and measurements by the end of this week.
My Spydercars frame head provides me with extra mounting points.
I have set the chassis on stands for a comfortable working height while I use some old school CAD* to mock up a solution for dual MC's.
* Cardboard Aided Design.
AKA playing with paper and scissors.
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The support the plate provides to the nose is very important. Whether it’s a plate or struts doesn’t matter much.
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I believe that's a Wilwood "60 Degree Mount Pedal" balance bar unit.
https://www.wilwood.com/Pedals/PedalProd?itemno=340-4630
This unit increases the mechanical leverage of the brake pedal by about 1.5:1, so you'd have to reduce the hydraulic leverage to compensate.
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I agree that it is the same concept but not a Wilwood unit.
It looks home made and the mount has a nasty weld to the frame head.
I am determined to come up with a clean install.
Not snowing today so it may be warm enough to work on my CAD in the shop.
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I think I may have the mechanical portion figured out.
Similar to the factory pivot lever, but longer, with the MC's taking their motion from the middle of the bar.
Need to look under the other S2 to confirm how much room is available WITH the spare tire in place.
Somewhere on this forum I recall a detailed post on determining MC sizing.
Ideally the bias bar would need no or very little adjustment.
That may mean two different MC sizes.
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I agree that it is the same concept but not a Wilwood unit.
It looks home made and the mount has a nasty weld to the frame head.
The way the unit is mounted is home made, but the unit matches the Wilwood part in all visible details. Take a look at the drawings. The grooves under the master cylinders, the "ears" holding the pivot pin, the angle of the master cylinders, the location of the mounting holes - they all match. There's too much matching detail for it to be a coincidence.
I rest my case, M'lud.
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You may be correct.
If I knew where the pic originated there may be additional views.
In any case the concept I am working with for now is to combine the Wilwood design concept with the original S2 off-set pedal/MC mount.
A horizontal rather than vertical actuating bar.
I have begun a CAD model.
Somewhat need to know MC's bore sizes in order to confirm what is available and dimensions.
Stock calipers at the front for now and VW Scirocco at the rear.
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Looking at TILTON compact MC's.
Unable to open RAR files so not certain of actual dimensions.
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Did some reading, tried some math, but do not yet have all the necessary figures for calculations. :headbanger:
I have realized that exactly where each component pivots in relation to the others will make a big difference in pedal ratio and feel.
I think I will mock up half and three-quarter distance versions of the bar.
See horrid illustration below. View facing the frame head from the front.
Left end is the link from the pedal, right end is the fixed pivot point.
Center is where the floating pivot bar to the MC's attaches.
I am expecting that the three-quarter would give me a more natural feel as it reduces the added pedal ratio. (Unless that is backward?)
A lot of this effort revolves around dealing with the offset of the brake pedal in relation to the MC mount. Making it two MC's adds some complexity.
O----O----O
O-O-------O
It would seem that with some care boosters should never have been needed.
EDIT: After playing about with a ruler, cardboard, and scissors, it is clear only the second configuration stands a chance.
And the pedal pivot point moves very near the balance bar pivot point.
I had hoped it might be possible to shorten it all up as well, no way.
I will need the shortest MC's possible. Tilton 75's at 3.1" plus a banjo fitting are still a little shorter than the original Girling. $102.00 Each for the full kit.
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Ouch!
My crank regrind is done, $420.00
New are "Only" $600.00 and shipping.
This came in about $100.00 higher than expected and I do not know why yet.
EDIT: Ah, additional labor as I had the machine shop measure the actual bearings in the block and rods.
Plus shipping x2 is just nuts now.
I think anyone putting off a restoration needs to jump on it ASAP as prices and parts availability will only get worse.
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Made minor progress on my rear disc brake conversion.
Chucked the new rear hubs in the lathe and turned them down to fit the MGF rotors as suggested by Sig Sleurs.
Since I used a lathe the rotors register on the hubs to assure concentricity if the studs do not.
So far it looks like the VW calipers will not clear Cosmic's, not sure about my other wheels.
I am going to spin up a dummy outer bearing so that I do not have to abuse the new ones.
With that done I will be able to mock it all up using the junk parts. :)
If the VW calipers do not work out other alternatives should be available using the same rotors.
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:)
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Picked up my freshly ground crankshaft today. :)
It sure makes the prior condition seem ugly.
Now I am going to have to get my cam and head issues resolved.
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Unable to do engine or suspension work today so I put some time into bodywork.
There will be bodywork to do for at least the rest of the year. ::)
Bonnet is nearly ready to begin repairing the cracks I ground out previously.
Actually not in too bad of shape despite at least one prior repair.
Engine cover is going to be the bigger chore.
For some unknown reason a former owner had glued in a piece of wood and open cell foam at the back, filling the transition area from horizontal to vertical.
Then they put a couple of layers of overly resin-rich cloth over that.
I had tried to buy another rear cover rather than have to deal with the mess.
But thanks to poor bonding and a good selection of power tools cleaning it up was not all that bad.
I will be adding a layer of chopped strand mat to restore the correct look and add a bit of strength.
The bodge I removed did not actually hurt anything except that it made the area strong at the expense of being ugly and heavy.
Where I have lucked out is that I have no cracks where the screens/vents were attached to the cover. :)
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My minor win of the day was fabricating a side mounted head to hold the Renault block on an engine stand.
My loss was paying $59.00 for a quart of fiberglass resin.
I will order on-line next time.
Even with shipping the paint shop is overpriced.
At least I may now get serious in repairing the Red S2.
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Warm days at last!
Happy to finally be applying epoxy and 'glass to repair my spider cracks and voids.
I am using medium speed hardener and think that was the right choice as it gives me fairly long working time.
I do need to have a lot more area prepped next time or find much smaller measuring cups.
Looks like I will be working on the bonnet and boot top surface to side join lines pretty much all around.
Buying more blasting soda in the morning, the cheap HF unit does not allow me to adjust the flow as well as I would like.
Question, I see area's where paint and primer have flaked off down to the gelcoat.
Which primer is adhering best these days?
Paint is to be simple single stage acrylic enamel.
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***DELETIA***
Which primer is adhering best these days?
Paint is to be simple single stage acrylic enamel.
I had extremely good luck (as did a number of folks over on the europa listserv) with Duratec primer.
https://www.fibreglast.com/product/Duratec_Gray_Surfacing_Primer_1041
Easy to sand...I've heard tell that some folks have even polished it to a shine...even though they talk about it being a plug mold primer...using this over a good body prep, the paint just laid down (over a single sealer coat) and flowed properly, and, from what I can tell from photos, 14 years after application, still has no spider cracks or imperfections or fiber print-through.
So much so, that is the only primer my shop uses now, and they say is compatable with the topcoat systems they're using (Axalta at the low end, Glasurit at the high end)
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Bryan, so your shop uses Duratec as the only primer? I had read of others using Duratec as the high build, easily sandable primer, then an epoxy primer over that before base coat.
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"(over a single sealer coat)"
Any particular sealer to recommend?
I am still working repairs and edge cracks so have time to get whatever is best.
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Bryan, so your shop uses Duratec as the only primer? I had read of others using Duratec as the high build, easily sandable primer, then an epoxy primer over that before base coat.
Depends on the top coat they're using. They found that Duratec seems to be a reasonably stable base for most of the top coats they shoot...from the Axalta to the Glasurit. On 693R, for example, they did Duratec for first primer, sanded out, second coat, sanded out, third coat, 600 grit level off, then Glasurit sealer, then Glasurit top.
Of course, the body has to be straight and finished, but, seems that the Duratec was the answer.
@Richard48Y: typically, from what my body guy tells me, the sealer should be from the top coat chemstry/product line. IOW, don't mix PPG with Axalta, for instance. The primer, well-flashed off (I leave mine out in the summer sun for a week and pull in at night....) is pretty neutral, so the sealer is there to just provide a smooth layer in between to promote adhesion and barrier between potential issues. The fact that, 14 years on, 693R is still bringing home trophies (for her new owner in IN) is testament to the process my guy came up with (that, and 6 coats of Glasurit urethane single stage helps, too...;)) Wish he hadn't retired, or else 3291R would be on a trailer to his shop as we speak. Lou D. here also used the same guy, as did RD. Dave (the paint guy...) was a true craftsman. Photo below is him shooting 693R in August '08.
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I am back to using the somewhat expensive blasting soda.
Tried a DA sander and did not like the result.
To get through three layers of paint the DA was tiresome and eager to create waves in the fiberglass.
Soda is easier on my back and on the gel-coat.
I am basically removing one layer of paint at a time.
The scary part is that I am still working on the bonnet and engine covers.
By the time I have stripped the entire shell and reworked the old repairs this is going to be a ridiculously long and expensive job of work.
I have to say a Europa is mechanically simple but the body is painful.
I may have to dedicate the whole summer to bodywork.
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***DELETIA***
I may have to dedicate the whole summer to bodywork.
Sounds about right. Time-wise, that is. Body guy picked up 693R middle of June '08 from my house. Shot first color in September. Things take time, and if you rush this part of the job...the part that everyone sees...well...all that work for naught.
Yeah, the bodywork is painful. That's why they get the prices (if they're good) that they do.
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Finally have the engine cover down to original paint and "Repairs", all of which I will have to redo.
Despite the time and money invested so far I think I may be better off to just get another engine cover.
The hazards of reviving an old race car I guess.
This has me dreading what I may find under the primer applied to the main body. :headbanger:
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Send some pics of damage, shipping nowadays will kill you.
Don’t give up , after stripping the composite veil applied to the top surface should cover all the sins of the past . Yes you will need to fix the big ones , but it one at a time.
Dakazman
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Bought the "Aircraft" fiberglass safe paint stripper and dove into the main body shell.
It has been on the rotisserie for a few weeks waiting on the warm weather.
With this stripper excellent ventilation is a must, hold the can down-wind when you open it, the first whiff will really clear your sinuses.
Glad it also gets after Bondo®, not so glad to find so much of it.
I am using a plastic sheet to enhance the stripping action as suggested by Kleen-Strip.
Seeing what I am up against I fear bodywork may be about all I accomplish this year.
Moving the engine parts into the former spare bedroom, now inside workspace.
Yes, I am single. ;)
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They do look much worse before they get to look better!
I have begun stripping the body.
I will post another pic once the body is fully stripped and soda blasted for comparison.
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Todays adventure was a mixed bag.
Bought the two R16 parts cars but was not able to bring either home as my loading ramp broke.
I did get to see what I bought, one car already has the engine and trans out so that will save me some time.
Bad news is that engine has a fist size hole in the block.
Thinking I will clean it up and make an end table from it.
The other car might even run with some effort, but that is an effort I will not be making.
I will have to examine the blown engine components, crank may be good, cam core looks salvageable, two heads, manifold, and an air cleaner are all there.
I will have to go back with better ramps or a borrowed trailer.
Oh, the win of the day.
Both transmissions appear to have intact speedometer drives.
Unless the Europa uses an odd variant that should take one item off my list of needs.
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Making progress on stripping the body.
Not happy with the amount of Bondo® I am finding.
Particularly Bondo® over paint. :headbanger:
If I find this one to be too bad I may replace the body.
Sure, almost any fiberglass is fixable, but as time is money I need to take the most sensible route.
Current plan is chemical strip until the paint is thin them finish with Soda Blasting.
Some areas are complex enough that only blasting makes sense to me.
An example would be the tail lamp recesses.
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Some areas are complex enough that only blasting makes sense to me.
An example would be the tail lamp recesses.
Exactly!
When doing mine the first time, I started with a DA on the larger areas and all seemed to be going fine for a while. It's those fiddly areas that bring the mind numbing reality of the task into stark relief.
Thus, I became a fan of sand blasting by a professional commercial operation - no if's but's or maybe's - all over and done with in a few days. I've told the story before so won't bore everyone with a repeat. Reading this thread and also Bryan's on the subject of blasting hasn't changed my 'fandom'.
So, what about a home gamer sand blasting rig for the fiddly areas?
I expect we've all seen those sand blasting attachments for a pressure washer which seem pretty good and at a reasonably cost. They permit quite a lot of control, too.
I dunno . . I just get the impression soda blasting isn't really up to the task. Sure, it'll do it but I could also scrub my driveway with a tooth brush is what I'm thinking.
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I have concluded that it really comes down to how many layers of paint and what type.
If you are working with only the original paint Soda should work very well.
A large enough air compressor is a must or you will spend a lot of time waiting for more air.
Since I am dealing with multiple layers of enamel I am now going chemical strip and Soda as a final step.
Sand is normally avoided as it will etch the gel coat or remove it completely.
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I am going to cease chemical stripping until I get to run over the entire body with Soda.
Some areas are three layers thick, others are a thin coat of primer over raw glass.
Soda blast will reveal what is under the primer so that I may apply chemical stripper only where needed.
Every area where I have removed primer I find Bondo®.
Not always heavy but present.
I knew it was a Hill Climb car but there was no mention of prior crashes.
So far not finding major repairs, but I have not got all the Bondo® off yet.
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Bit the bullet and bought the Duratec primer and reducer today.
Going to be a bodywork summer as the gallon is only guaranteed for six months.
3.5 cars of fiberglas to do.
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IMHO...you will not be sorry. Just follow the directions and the reduction ratios. You're in a good location (assume most of NV is dry?); shoot, let flash off and then sit outside in the sun for a couple days....flatten with 440. Reshoot thin areas. And don't forget the PPE.
Bit the bullet and bought the Duratec primer and reducer today.
Going to be a bodywork summer as the gallon is only guaranteed for six months.
3.5 cars of fiberglas to do.
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Bryan, are you (or anyone) able to comment on whether the Duratec primer is easier / harder to sand than the more common polyester spray fillers?
My impression is that Duratec is somewhat harder and perhaps it's because it contains more solids (I'm guessing) than something like Slick Sand or the like?
I know the blurb says "easy to sand" which is, of course, a relative term.
Also, there seems to be a number of different products that would fall under the descriptor of 'Duratec primer' and I'm not sure which is which as per this link.
https://atlcomposites.com.au/category/34/Sealers-and-Primers
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I did my engine and trunk lids with Duratec, and it’s great to sand. Then the rest dried up in the can. So respect that due date. So next I tried featherfill 2, and it sanded well, but not as well as the Duratec. For the rest of the body, I’m getting some more Duratec. When I’m ready to spray.
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Do you recall which particular Duratec, Kendo?
I've been surfing some body shop forums and there's some comments saying it sands like concrete. That's in contrast to others in the Europa world so I'm presuming there's different hardness applicable to different Duratec versions.
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Do you recall which particular Duratec, Kendo?
I've been surfing some body shop forums and there's some comments saying it sands like concrete. That's in contrast to others in the Europa world so I'm presuming there's different hardness applicable to different Duratec versions.
I don't recall having issues sanding the Duratec out; IIRC, I used 320 to knock it down, then 440 to smooth it out. Use the "A" version. My body guy did do a spray out, and managed to polish it to a reasonable shine (in other words, if I had wanted to do a grey primer car, I could have actually cleared it and had a car that was primer grey!
(First three in no particular order, in the booth, last photo is after sanding out and pinholes addressed...sheesh...those were taken 15 years ago! Time flies!)
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Thanks, Bryan, but which is the "A" version?
From my link:
Duratec 1794-006 VE Primer
Duratec 714-002 Surface Primer
Duratec 707-061 Sanding Primer
Duratec 707-051 Base Primer
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Thanks, Bryan, but which is the "A" version?
From my link:
Duratec 1794-006 VE Primer
Duratec 714-002 Surface Primer
Duratec 707-061 Sanding Primer
Duratec 707-051 Base Primer
https://www.fibreglast.com/product/duratec-gray-surfacing-primer
707-002s what you want.
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Thanks muchly, Bryan.
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Thanks muchly, Bryan.
my pleasure. We're all in this together.
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There's a sheet that helps with selection of Duratec products available here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vm6m277ux1stjp5/FLYER%20RIGHT%20CHOICE%20BROCHURE.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/vm6m277ux1stjp5/FLYER%20RIGHT%20CHOICE%20BROCHURE.pdf?dl=0)
I was just going to attach it, but it's about 1500 Kb and deemed to be too big to attach here.
Also, their distributor Hawkeye Products has comprehensive product data available that can help with selection. See this page: https://hawkeyeind.com/duratec-guides/ (https://hawkeyeind.com/duratec-guides/)
Vince
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Now I know why R16's have nearly all been scrapped.
I thought I had seen some difficult to work on cars, but an R16 takes the cake.
Fortunate this one is headed to scrap, I used a Sawzall to simplify getting the engine out.
I would never want to have to put one in!
Now to clean up what I have bought.
Unfortunate the engine appears to be seized.
Good that I do not actually need it immediately.
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There's a sheet that helps with selection of Duratec products available here:
Excellent, Vince, that's great.
Having all products on one page with descriptions of the intended purpose makes wading through the options simpler for the uninitiated. It also helps inderstand the nomenclature logic when seeing that the suffix numbers typically relate to the colour of the product.
Many thanks.
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All these sort of coatings and resins are always difficult to differentiate from one another. I don't know what it is, but the producers aren't ever able to say that they are anything but unmatched in gloss, durability, ease of sanding, etc. etc. Every one. Makes it extremely difficult to choose. And then there are the 'systems' where you need to use 3 or 4 different things to get to the final result. Super difficult to discern when you should use one system over another. It's the same way with all this stuff for boats. Still, this is what we have to go on.
-V
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Yes, but remember too that these Duratec products are intended for mould/pattern making. We're using them outside of spec. We have zero info on possible automotive downsides and we obviously don't care about the gloss achievable.
Which is why I was wondering about hardness. What might be considered easy to sand for a smaller mould, might be pretty arduous over a whole car body.
That said, our little community must have a number of live Duratec 'experiments' running currently and, so far, I've not seen anyone unhappy with the performance of the product.
It's the same thing with veil which is also used out of spec. Still & all, this stuff is testament to the forgiving nature of these polyester based products.
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Engine cover for the red care is nearly ready for veil, them primer.
On my car I am using epoxy resin, a bit more work and expense but in theory even stronger.
I have set up an experiment for tomorrow.
For some reason Fiberglast says do not use synthetic veil with epoxy, but they do not say why not.
So I've put mold release on a plastic panel and will see what Epoxy does to synthetic veil and the same over a layer of glass matting.
I will report the result.
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Veils and thicker mats are held together with a binder that dissolves with a solvent in polyester resins that isn’t in epoxys. Maybe styrene? So with polyester resins, when you wet them out, the binder dissolves and the veil relaxes into whatever curves are in the part being repaired.
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OK, that makes sense.
But, epoxy works fine with fiberglass matting.
I will finish the experiment and contact Fiberglast on Monday.
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The commonly available chopped strand mat as well as glass continuous filament veil both have the polyester compatible binder.
I believe epoxy compatible chopped strand mat without the binder is available but uncommon. The standard boating biaxial 1708 has one layer of CSM and is compatible with epoxy, but that stuff is stitched together so it won't fall apart easily.
I'm not sure about the polyester veils because the nature of this 'fabric' would seem to indicate that a binder wouldn't be necessary for it to hold together. Some manufacturers say it has a binder and others say it hasn't. Perhaps it's available either way?
There's also lots of different types of polyester surfacing veil and as far as I can gather, most usage is for manufacturing large pipes and tanks, so that probably dictates the properties needed.
Here's some info on one product I've used with polyester resin that has no binder.
I thought it was pretty good:
http://www.hegardt.es/en/products/p212-nexus-veil
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Experiment got postponed due to other commitments.
But the epoxy has worked fine with the fiberglass mat I have which is nothing special.
I will try to reach the manufacturer in the morning.
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Spoke with Fibre Glast this morning.
Synthetic Veil IS compatible with epoxy, it has no binders.
The Continuous Veil is not due to binders.
It seems my fiberglas mat is not truly compatible with epoxy as it has binders.
Still works but perhaps not at full strength and only on flat areas.
I am told it would not conform well to curves and corners since the binder will not release.
So it seems I have to find different mat to complete the job.
Or just start using the barrel full of Carbon Fiber remnants I have.
Everything gets painted so the CF will not show.
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Not everyone is a fan of West Systems but they are very informative.
So I now know that "Stitched mat" is the answer for Epoxy use.
"Can WEST SYSTEM® Epoxy be used to wet out chopped strand mat?
The answer is yes. The fiberglass strand in mat wets out with epoxy, but the binder holding things together does not dissolve. (It does get put into suspension and is sealed in the cured epoxy.)
This undissolved binder causes the wet-out mat to remain a bit stiff compared to wet-out with a styrene-based resin.
For gently curving or flat projects like cabin soles or plywood decks, mat and epoxy should work fine. The fabric does not wet out perfectly clear with epoxy.
Wet-out clarity of mat with epoxy varies somewhat with different suppliers, but none of them wet out as clear as a good 4 oz or 6 oz fiberglass cloth.
Stitched chopped strand mat
There are chopped strand mats produced without a binder that work extremely well with epoxy. These products are referred to as stitched mats.
The randomly oriented strands are held together with light stitching, which runs parallel to the length of the roll and is spaced about 3/16″ to 1/4″ apart over the width of the roll.
The stitching eliminates the need for binders.
These products tend to wet out a bit faster with epoxy and become more flexible on average than generic chopped strand mats.
These stitched mats are suitable for use above and below the waterline for marine applications. Roll mat, the type held together with a binder (not stitched), is used by some of our customers for new construction and repair for below water applications, but we have had some reservations on this if the boat stays in the water."
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Stitch Mat is not so readily available as the regular product.
I did find a US source but they are not really geared for small volume retail.
I do have a four yard sample of 1.5 coming from them.
Stitch may be more pliable than regular binder mat.
As always I will post results.
https://skaps.com (https://skaps.com)
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I did find a US source but they are not really geared for small volume retail.
I do have a four yard sample of 1.5 coming from them.
Score!
Four yards is a pretty generous sample . . and probably enough to do at least three cars worth of smaller repairs.
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Well, I did suggest they contact Fiber Glast to offer their Stitch Mat as Fiber Glast has none and could not even suggest a supplier.
What I am getting is a remnant, they normally sell by the pound.
I am paying $hipping so not actually free.
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Well, there ya go . . Fiber Glast don't have a market for it.
I'd be interested in your findings with the stitched CSM.
The commonly used method is to tear off pieces of CSM when preparing to patch a repair. The torn pieces tend to blend in more smoothly than cutting pieces with scissors.
I'm wondering if tearing still works with the stitched material. Specifically, I'm curious to hear if the stitching will break away easily.
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Still waiting for the stitched mat.
Found a working link to the gallery but disappointed it is so few pages.
Debating removing the "Warts" and wanted to see what others had done to relocate turn signals.
Seems to be a rare modification.
Reluctance based on expectation that resale value may be negatively affected when the day comes I am too feeble to drive it anymore.
But as it is already fairly modified mechanically perhaps a moot concern?
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Could not stand looking at all the white Bondo® "Repairs" running across my engine cover any longer so ground them all out.
About to do them over with glass and resin.
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Hi Richard,
Thanks for posting this question but first, I agree and understand your need to see what is leaking below.
Here is where and how I went about 1/2 the job. The PO removed and did a fast cover up that I paid for later on.
It took me awhile to find these pics but enjoyed going through my build. I couldn’t believe it was that long ago almost going to beginning of my documented build. Not exactly the missing years before internet. 😂
Hope this helps:
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=2058.30
Dakazman
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Post above meant for another thread?
I've finally got enough "Repair" done to my engine cover to see about fixing the highs and lows.
Lots of warpage at the rear, high under the license plate and low around it, I'm guessing an effect of sun and heat.
Top surface is a little better.
'Glass resin and fibers are a bit hard to sand flat or to the curve, so I think I will try a thin layer of 'Glass and Microspheres.
Still avoiding Bondo®.
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Resin and microspheres is working very well.
But I am using up the micro quickly.
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Finally found a few hours to work on my own car.
Dismantled the "Rebuilt" front suspension.
Repainted the lower arms in black, not a fan of odd colors on suspension bits.
Found that the hub bearings had almost no grease, the inner seals were poorly installed, and outer bearing races have minor rust staining so will replaced.
Rotors appear new but have "Patina" after sitting so long so are being cleaned, may have to be replaced.
I am getting anxious to actually begin putting parts back ON the chassis.
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Finding time 😂
I think that is the hardest to achieve. I hate the word , priorities..I thought that when you retire I’d have all the time I need 💩. I just can’t say no when helping others. Another word , juggling, that’s when all the parts you ordered are sitting somewhere in your garage waiting to find a place next to that missing 10mm socket. Okay, I totally agree with your Frustration.
Hang those parts 👍👍
Dakazman
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Completed what should be the last long trip to obtain large parts.
Picked up a better body from Joji, near San Diego.
Long trip, I hope to sell the truck ASAP and put the funds into the S2.
It would have been a shorter trip if NAPA had not compromised their parts quality along with everyone else. Failed fuel pump at less than 3,000 miles.
A Lotus cannot be any less reliable than a Chevy with modern parts installed. :headbanger:
Now to get it all unloaded and cleaned up.
Vacuum and pressure washer to begin with.
This body has never been repainted so all flaws should be easy to find and repair.
Honest first time repairs have to be better than layers on layers.
No Bondo® so it will be lighter than the old one. :)
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Finding time 😂
I think that is the hardest to achieve. I hate the word , priorities..I thought that when you retire I’d have all the time I need 💩. I just can’t say no when helping others. Another word , juggling, that’s when all the parts you ordered are sitting somewhere in your garage waiting to find a place next to that missing 10mm socket. Okay, I totally agree with your Frustration.
Hang those parts 👍👍
Dakazman
That's what I'm afraid of when I finally pull the plug later this year. My parts cabinet is full of new parts to put on 3291R, and my time right now is limited (my company is jumping on the AI bandwagon after doing nothing groundbreaking with it since it was deployed...and we're all jumping through hoops to become AI conversant) more than I'd like it to be (well, that and the stifling temps in the garage, even in the northeast...).
Right now waiting for the shop up the street to ring me up to bring the car in so they can road force balance the steelies and new rubber I put on last month. Still a bit of vibration around 65-70 MPH (gear knob wiggles a little...not as bad as with the alloys, but still noticable), so going to try road force balance and see whether that makes a diff.
It's too much fun driving it otherwise...which keeps putting me off of pulling the lump and all that entails. Drive or wrench? The eternal Europa conundrum...and my Cessna is going in for annual inspection this week in NJ. And my day to day ride needs to have the AC looked at. It never ends.
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Pressure washer worked well and at 97ºf getting wet was no bother.
Got years of dirt, most of the old black lacquer and interior glue off, made progress on the old undercoat.
I swear some of the panels are a single layer thick, you really can see through them.
Only finding one old repair, LF wheel arch, and one other repair to be made at the bottom of the nose.
While it is on the forklift I will remove the remnants of the fiberboard at the bottom of the bulkhead and make the cut for my second fuel tank.
Convenient that I got a second fill pipe and cap with the body, so one less purchase to make.
Calling this one a Win!
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Back to fighting the Camshaft war again.
Dug up my old notes, opened an Inch to MM conversion app.
Cam is my last big ticket mechanical item and seems to be the most difficult as well.
What I think I have concluded is that the cam I have has too much lift for a street car, nearly 12mm.
The cam grinder failed to relieve the blank at the heel of the cam as we had agreed.
This means the lifters would be contacting the blank which has been pointed out as bad for cam/lifter life and power.
So it seems I am going to be buying a billet cam once I decide which to get.
As a practical matter CAT Cams seem to be the only readily available source.
Wishing their data was more complete, Lobe Center?
I will be sending them an email in hope of extracting more data.
If anyone knows another source for a "hot street" but not Full-Race TS cam please share.
I do not have a blank as I doubt mine can be ground yet again without a lot of welding.
Maybe a racer can use mine?
CAT offerings,
No. 5500525, 280°/280° - 236°/236° - 10.00mm/10.00mm - 2.15mm/2.15mm
No. 5500526, 287°/287° - 244°/244° - 10.45mm/10.45mm - 2.85mm/2.85mm
If the second cam is a 108º lobe center it would be pretty close to what Salv Sacco recommended.
EDIT: 110º per an earlier CAT email.
You can expect a 2500-6500rpm powerband with 5500525.
The powerband of 5500526 will be around 2800-6800rpm.
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Arguing with myself over the two readily available cams above.
Will I really notice an operating range shift of 300 RPM?
And just what is the stock operating RPM range of a TS headed car anyway?
Seems I see a lot of mention of 7,000 RPM or greater.
Seems doubtful a 1545/1595 engine pulls away at less than what, 900 RPM?
I seem to recall a caution that over 6,000? RPM significantly shortens engine life.
Wossner high compression pistons, so will one cam be noticeably better for dynamic compression than the other?
Home altitude is an average of 4,000' above sea level.
Any direction I go I have to climb out of the valley.
Best pump octane without race fuel is only 91 octane.
I have yet to hear of an octane booster that truly works without having to use a LOT of it.
100 and 105 race fuel are available locally but the price is murderous.
No CAT so a mix with aircraft 100LL may also be possible.
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Removed the fill neck from the "New" body.
I need it to have twin tanks in my car.
I assume I may use the left location as a template for the right, just make a pattern and flip it over?
Same for the opening in the bottom of the body?
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Richard I will post pics of the bottom cut outs on Twin Cam later this morning since it’s still hanging from ceiling.
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Here ya go.... Notice the precision of the cuts :o
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On my TCS with extensive damage to the driver side, the DPO didn’t repair that area at all. So I reconstructed the bottom of the left gas tank area, using a mirror image of he right side. So that approach works fine. And yes, hole originally cut on a Monday ^-^
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Just happened to lean a "Bahama Yellow" bonnet against the MG Midget.
Different names, but I cannot see any difference in color between the two.
Wondering if other colors were shared with MG, Jaguar, Triumph?
Paint shops may have formulas for the more common cars?
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Sold my oversize truck this morning.
This means I should have almost enough funding to complete the Lotus with the exception of paint.
So sending CC payments and making my list.
Concentrating on engine, drive-train, and brakes to begin with.
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Committed modification to the Lotus body!
Cut a hole up top for the second fuel tank filler and a larger hole below for access to fit the second tank.
I live in the wide open spaces out west, I must have two tanks.
Also began stripping old paint.
Realizing my large compressor may be tired, I keep having to wait for more air pressure to get effective use from the soda blaster.
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Since I am in bodywork mode the comments on engine compartment airflow have been on my mind.
Past discussion has the S2 recirculating warm air from the open rear back end, then IN through the deck vents.
TC escapes this by deleting the open rear end.
So my thought is to put a thin panel behind the original mesh.
But I wonder if there might be another way, such as louvers in place of the rear deck mesh?
Interested in suggestions, prefer to retain the original appearance as much as possible.
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I hope you come up with something! I too love the original appearance and balk at fitting any of the external scoops I’ve seen so far. The 47’s NACA ducts are ok looking but not very useful.
All I have done is to duct the carb air intake low and in front of the wheel well. Haven’t fit a thermocouple there yet to text it though.
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Since I am in bodywork mode the comments on engine compartment airflow have been on my mind.
Past discussion has the S2 recirculating warm air from the open rear back end, then IN through the deck vents.
TC escapes this by deleting the open rear end.
So my thought is to put a thin panel behind the original mesh.
But I wonder if there might be another way, such as louvers in place of the rear deck mesh?
Interested in suggestions, prefer to retain the original appearance as much as possible.
My MAF has a temp sensor as does my intercooler outlet that one get's air from above the deck. I've also been using two T type probes with a dual readout meter trying to find a way to get cool air to my filter. I'm in Phoenix and it's only a problem when 90* and above. I completely sealed the front driver side deck hole so air entering the filter must come only through the hole in the deck. It helped but hot air just circulates above the deck due to air exiting the other holes. I had a probe to measure air as it entered there too. I also made a small duct out of ABS, mounted in front of the driver side tank under the body to pick up air into the filter. This helped some but the flow was too low. Once it got too hot, over 100* I tore the interior out to re do. In a few weeks, I 'll continue to find a way to get it better. I picked up another ABS sheet and I'll try a wider duct under the body.
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Agreed that the rear air circulation is uninspiring to say the least but the deck vents do exit air to the outside world, but not any huge quantities from my observation.
My plan is to us the 47 style NACA ducts. I've calculated the area of one duct to be more than adequate to feed the carbs at standstill. At speed it'll flow more and I'll incorporate an air bleed within the engine compartment so as not to be force feeding the induction system. I intend to incorporate a flat panel paper filter using a housing from a common vehicle or make a fibreglass box to suit the same filter.
Hopefully I'll have most of this tucked up under the RH sail panel and connect a normal flexible duct to the air box. I figure that's perhaps the only place available to get ambient air that's relatively free of dust.
The LH duct? - dunno but I'll likely leave it free and let it contribute whatever to the engine bay air circulation.
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The stock 47 NACA ducts will not flow sufficient air to feed the carbs. It has been done. It didn’t work. The carbs went very rich as the intake restriction acts like a choke. By all means direct a NACA duct at the air intake but don’t seal it and make it the exclusive air source.
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OOF! Just paid over $700.00 for a new billet cam!
I usually pay less for a whole car, just saying. :headbanger:
Guess they wanted the sale, they actually called me on the phone, from Belgium.
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What cam did you go with?
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Chickened out and went with the mild one. :(
Next step up might have had some advantages for dynamic compression but I need to restrain myself in the interest of longer engine life.
In about seven weeks I hope to present it to the engine, on a velvet pillow would be appropriate.
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From Cat Cams? Or Meca Parts?
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Cat Cams.
The expense is inspiring me to try again for a lighter valve train with lower seat pressure.
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I think you made a good choice. The other cam looked to me to be more like full race. I would let go of the beehive springs and 6mm valves idea. Just too much money for too little return. Mind you, thus says the man who is famous for doing similar bone-headed things. Try $3k worth of wheels that look exactly like stock steel wheels of which he has multiple sets!
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Getting closer.
Found 6mmx40mm intake valves at $38.00 each.
Available exhaust are a little small but larger may be available from another supplier?
With 6mm stems I can make guides with a smaller OD to clear the upper ID of Beehive springs.
7mm stems may be available from Europe, more research.
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I thought Meca had valves with 7mm stems. 40mm is a bit small isn’t it? Thought the higher output hemis had larger valves than that.
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I need to put all the notes together on a single page.
Cursed copy and paste from varied sites does not work well.
I think there are some 43mm intakes but 40mm is standard?
Mostly doing this in the evening.
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Got my Mercedes clone radiator fan today.
It will fit, but there is NO room to spare.
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42/36 is the stock, large valve set-up. 43/37 can be made to fit.
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Thanks, JB.
Do we know who tried this - a forum member, perhaps? I'd really like to know the 'why' of it.
I measured the area of the Banks duct inlet and it's larger than a 3 inch (75mm) round duct commonly used here on big V8's putting out much greater horsepower. My working assumption is that should provide sufficient flow.
Having read the original NASA paper on these ducts, I expect the Banks implementation looks to not conform in multiple aspects - one side isn't vertical, the corners aren't sharply defined etc. And that's before we consider proportions or the fact that it's curved.
Nevertheless, my consideration is merely access to fresh ambient air, not a duct induced air flow rate above zero. Has anyone tested the flow rate of a Banks duct. A wool tufts exercise would be sufficient, I reckon.
Anyway, I'm not wedded to this, so if it's is all wrong, I'd really like to know - much better to find out now before investing time and resources.
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It was a member of this forum or the groups.io list. Can’t remember which. They fit the 47 ducts and plumbed one to the carbs. Fine at idle but very obviously restricted at speed. Might work if you plumbed both ducts to the carbs. YMMV
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JB,
It was SwiftDB4 who did the real world test:
Yeah, that maybe, JB.
Can you recall who the lister was?
That was me. I hooked up 3" hose from my Banks NACA duct to my sealed carb box (twin 45DCOE's feeding a Zetec). Tested on a track day power was down drastically from no ducting and individual air horns with foam socks.
NACA ducts are only effective if they're in the airstream. That far back on the body they actually get less airflow at speed.
Installed 47 style snorkel with sealed connection to air box. 500 rpm more in top gear on track day.
I agree snorkels are not aesthetically pleasing. I only use my snorkel for track days.
He posted this on Mecky's thread.
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Thanks
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Tried to give up on the 6mm stem valves and just order the 7mm from Europe.
I know I saw them available a few months ago but cannot locate them now.
Either Mecaparts dropped them or have hidden them on their site.
Maybe it was another site I saw them on, in any case I cannot locate them now.
Guidance appreciated!
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Their available valves are listed here:
https://www.mecaparts.com/product-category/alpines/a110-a108-a106/moteur/a110-pieces-refection-moteur/1596-cm3-1600-va-vb-778-x-84-mm/page/2/
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Maybe I saw the 7mm stems at another source.
Wishing I could recall who it was.
EDIT: As usual the easy way out is to just contact Salv Sacco.
He has them, originally "Hot-Rod" Ford cross-flow parts.
He may be a bit more expensive, I do not begrudge him a fair profit as the lack of language barrier and assurance the parts will be right is very much worth it.
41.25mm Intake is probably close enough.
Should still be a bit lighter and may let me complete the Beehive spring quest.
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JB,
It was SwiftDB4 who did the real world test:
He posted this on Mecky's thread.
Thanks, Rod.
That's all rather disappointing so a revisit to the drawing board is probably in order . . and to dig out my copy of 'Tune to Win'.
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I have been taking measurements and perusing specs.
From what I can see Beehive springs can be done fairly easily but will require a custom bottom spring seat.
The Beehive which appears to be a good match is shorter than stock springs.
The disappointment is that seat pressures are still nearly the same as stock, I am hoping for lighter.
If the spring pressures are nearly identical it kind of makes the exercise fruitless unless the resonance issue is greatly decreased over original dual springs.
They may be closer to my goal at only 10mm open?
I will have to make a call about that.
https://www.supertechperformance.com/p61511-beehive-valve-springs (https://www.supertechperformance.com/p61511-beehive-valve-springs)
Seat Pressure: 67 @ 35.5 (A little short, but that leaves room for custom seats).
Open Pressure: 182 @ 11.5 (I will have to see what this would be at 10mm).
Max Lift: 13.00mm (I only need 10mm and even the racers max at around 12mm).
Coil Bind: 21.50mm
OutSpr.ID: 19.70mm (Too small to clear the head boss, use the seat spacer to fix).
InnSpr.OD: 23.20mm
InnSpr.ID: 15.20mm
Rate: 10 (This may be the deal breaker, I really need to know my desired rate).
There are a couple more springs that may work but they are even stiffer than these.
There is at least one with a better length but the head might have to be modified.
Yes, I am probably making life unnecessarily difficult for myself with this exercise. :confused:
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Drop back and punt?
Roller rockers are "possible" but difficult.
And a very long lead time from Now.
So it looks like I am sending my original rockers and shafts to Rockers Unlimited.
They will stress relieve, balance, and rebuild them.
The shafts will be hard chromed and center-less ground.
The tips and balls will get an MOS2 coating for reduced friction.
Not as trick as rollers but much faster and far less expensive.
Should still be a nice upgrade.
Now I'm wondering about the MOS2 for cam faces.
And of course cryo treat, as there seems to be some debate as to the longevity of billet cams.
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(Grumble) I wish parts suppliers could be just a little more informative.
I've ponied up for a billet Cat Cams sport cam.
I would like to know if it is gun drilled as they mention on their site, has it been Nitrided or some other surface treatment?
Maybe more detail will be included with the instructions supplied with the cam.
Assuming there ARE some instructions.
I hate waiting on parts!
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Transfer tubes, price and shipping. :huh:
I've made an inquiry with Lotus Supplies as even with the exchange rate creeping up they appear to be half the price of domestically supplied.
Final expense depends on shipping cost.
At around $700-$800 a set I can buy my own dies for $220 and just bend my own pair.
Or several, I already have a nice tube bender.
Really trying to not add to the side project list.
If I am bending my own, go Aluminum or Stainless?
Aluminum may be a little harder to bend without flattening, might have to try the sand trick.
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.065" wall for stainless transfer tubes?
Got tracking info stating my new cam will be here Wednesday.
Hoping the package may contain more information regards surface treatment.
Salv Sacco is back from holiday so the 7mm stem valve quest should conclude soon.
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You could buy mandrel bends and save the cost of the dies and weld them together, I did this with aluminum….
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Today was almost productive. ;)
New cam from Cat Cams arrived, looks very nice as a $550.00 (Over $650.00 with shipping!) billet cam should.
It is gun-drilled for weight reduction and to allow pressurized oiling of the lifters via ports in the heel, unless blocked off.
A new distributor drive is included.
It has some type of black coating applied but I have no idea what it may be.
Shiny, not dull, so doubt it is Parkerizing.
No additional information beyond what is posted at their site was included.
Got a suggestion from Salv Sacco to run BMC A Series valve springs as the weight savings is substantial, 57 grammes for spring and cap, standard Renault is 125 grammes.
Of course being the extremist I am I have found Ti. retainers to bring the reciprocating mass down even further. >:D
The Ti. price is ridiculous, but I am so far into this build now it seems comparatively cheap. :o
This does require some modification of the head so not to be taken lightly.
I have also decided that I am buying a valve spring tester.
I have at least three options for the TS head now but need to test them.
1. The too easy path, reuse my old springs, they may be fine, or one or more may have lost some tension while the car sat. Ti. retainers are available.
2. Pursue the Beehive Spring option. Since they do not publish specs at my mere 10mm lift I would need a sample to do my own testing. The smaller retainers probably make Ti. moot.
3. The BMC A Series conversion, which Salve has used before. Ti. retainers are available.
It is probably worth mentioning that I will be using 9/32" (7.14375mm) stem valves.
The valves come from the English Ford "Kent Cross-Flow" hot-rod world.
This should be a little lighter, less expensive, and more reliable than almost any other available custom valves.
The small increase in flow will also be welcome.
I did talk to Ferrea, call it $80.00 per valve and the intake blanks are out of stock anyway.
So I'm going a bit extreme but WILL be setting a rev limiter to curb my over-enthusiasm.
Much of this is an effort to preserve the spendy cam and prevent valve float that I suspect parked the car in the past.
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Ordered 1.25" x 3.5" CLR tube bending dies from JD2 despite the intransigence of their site.
If anyone has the correct length for both tubes I will dust off my bending software and model them.
I can get very close from the set I have but it appears one has been cut and an additional rubber hose added inside the tunnel.
I do not know how much was removed, just a saw blade width, or a little more.
Not sure it is really an issue but may as well go as close to original as possible.
Once I find 1.25" tube in 9' lengths these are simple enough I may become a Western US source.
Everyone visits Reno/Lake Tahoe. ;)
Shipping cost have gone insane, so picking them up may easily be cheaper.
Also ordered my valve spring tester, it should be here tomorrow.
Convenient to have Summit Racing so close by.
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As feared, the worst expense for SS tube is still shipping, even for strait 10' lengths.
I may have to drive to Las Vegas to pick it up.
Will be fun in a '92 T-Bird. ???
I will try some calls in the morning as it 'should' be available in Reno.
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You could buy mandrel bends and save the cost of the dies and weld them together, I did this with aluminum….
What filler rod is best for these, Turbo?
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Despite being rusty with the program I have modeled the simpler transfer tube.
On to the second!
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4043 Gavin to weld these up....
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I have the second tube mostly modeled, just need to 'Clock' some bends.
Simple edits.
Finally found a decently priced source of tube, $95.00 a 20' stick.
And $200.00 in gas to go get it. :headbanger:
Still beats the snot out $700.00+ to order a set.
Yes the dies cost a bit, but they are a durable tool I will use again.
I may just grab an extra stick of material, surely someone nearby will need a set too.
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4043 Gavin to weld these up....
Thanks, Turbo.
I see you've also done the heater tubes. I'd considered doing those in ally but figured they might waggle about too much and be prone to cracking. Maybe a couple of 'P' clips along the way would solve that.
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Gavin, I welded tabs to them and they are pop riveted to the frame at each end.
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Cool . . . welded tabs would work.
I kinda wanted to be able to remove them with the body in place.
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Just remember to put all the rubber seals in place. on an S2 with a Hermes intake you will have to cut them again.
dakazman
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Got my new JD2 dies today.
As soon as I can get my hands on material I will be able to bend my own transfer tubes.
Found a source for SS, still looking for aluminum.
Not sure which aluminum alloy to look for.
So far all I have found available is 6000 series, which does not bend.
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New fuel tank sending unit installed.
Gave me a chuckle as there is no way it could ever read over a half tank accurately.
Lower limit of travel is at or very near the bottom of the tank, but upper travel hits the stop at about the middle of the tank.
So I see no way for the gauge to read anything more when the tank is over half-full. ::)
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Been trying to soda blast the body.
Got a crack in the main tank of the cheap HF blaster so I will have to braze it up.
Really need either a slightly larger compressor or more efficient blaster.
Finding more old repairs but none are major.
Also finding some surfaces to be really rough, pretty much all of the engine compartment for example.
Not really looking for a gloss finish there but may try to smooth it somewhat, rough surfaces are harder to clean.
Some areas are also so thin they are transparent, thinking of using microspheres and a layer of synthetic veil.
Really not wanting the additional bodywork but have to do this only once.
Salve Sacco has my 7mm stem valves and reduced diameter springs ready to ship.
With those in hand I should be able to get the head done.
I hope to drop it off at HBR when I visit 'Lost Wages' to get my SS tube.
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More soda blasting on the Lotus.
Trying to be able to bring it inside before the real rains begin.
Very slow going, and expensive at $50 a bag for the soda.
Scary thought but looks like probably another $400 to finish blasting.
Trying to avoid any possible chemical stripper damage and DA sander waves after going to such effort to obtain this shell.
Probably about 40% done.
Also doing the inside and engine compartment/frunk so maybe closer to 30%.
Soda is also removing remnants of black paint, undercoat (Over FIBERGLASS!) and loose fibers.
Finding the paint mission scope creep a bit daunting. :headbanger:
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Lightened and increased flow valves and springs should ship by the end of this week.
Not cheap at just under $600.00
Then I still need to get them installed after the head is lightly ported, more $.
I no longer add up expense as it would be discouraging.
Completed the soda blaster mods last night so will try it out this evening.
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I keep my receipts in a big envelope …. maybe one day when I need a good scare I will add them up ???
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More soda blasting on the Lotus.
Trying to be able to bring it inside before the real rains begin.
Very slow going, and expensive at $50 a bag for the soda.
Scary thought but looks like probably another $400 to finish blasting.
Trying to avoid any possible chemical stripper damage and DA sander waves after going to such effort to obtain this shell.
Probably about 40% done.
Also doing the inside and engine compartment/frunk so maybe closer to 30%.
Soda is also removing remnants of black paint, undercoat (Over FIBERGLASS!) and loose fibers.
Finding the paint mission scope creep a bit daunting. :headbanger:
Those loose fibers and hairline cracks are all most impossible to get out. I should be painting the panels that I did in composite veil soon . I used to sanded fibers in a mixture of resin to smooth out the engine compartment, and troweled it on.
Turbo, :FUNNY:
MAYBE ONE DAY THEY WILL GO FOR THEIR HOURS WORKED ON PRICE.
Dakazman
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My modifications to the blaster seem to have helped.
I get much longer sessions now and use less soda, WIN!
Once the body is fully blasted and washed down with Hold-Tite I will begin repairs.
First filling factory voids, then the myriad cracks.
I plan to add a coloring agent to all resin repair materials so I may see where I have done the work.
Pretty certain that veil alone will not fix cracks that are currently easily visible.
The bodywork is daunting, certainly the most difficult and time consuming chore of the entire restoration.
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I can’t agree more with your last statement. I’m waiting on my daughter to print out a JPS rendering to full scale that I’ll transfer to a stencil or find someone who does a cutout decal.
Lol ,Weber or these China models jet sizing is killing me. 🤔😂,
I like your coloring step and it should show , or not show in the finished product.
Good luck
Dakazman
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If all goes well I have just sent Salv Sacco the balance due for my tricky valve-train.
I despise pay-pal so found another international service.
Sign up was a pain, and they are incredibly nosy, demanding all sorts of irrelevant details. ::)
But cheaper than the banks and able to pay directly from the CC.
Glad I do not do this often.
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I often keep wanting to get a passport , since I fly for free I can go there cheaper than shipping.
Hell I’m retired but not divorced 😂😂😂
Dakazman
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Unhappy with the seemingly endless task of bodywork I found something simpler to do.
Got the poorly designed and executed baffle removed from my oil pan.
Really wanting the cast alloy "Gordini Type" pan but it is currently not available in addition to being so expensive.
So looks like I will be modifying the steel pan a bit more intelligently.
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Got a response to my inquiry for aluminum honeycomb panels.
4'x8' should be enough to do two cars.
Cut to 4'x4' they can ship UPS.
Not cheap but may outlast the car?
Kerr Panel Manufacturing
6125 E. 56th Ave, Suite C
Commerce City CO, 80022
TEL: (303) 288-4534 Ext. 106
Fax: (303) 289-8510
Cell: 720-292-6603
Kerrpanel.com
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Gave up on the Beehive springs, they are possible but difficult and not as much gain as hoped.
Got my tricky Ford 7mm stem valves, guides, and Ford springs from Salv Sacco today.
Going to be a bit of work to install them but I am sure they will be worth it.
Nor certain how spring weight figures into valve-train calculations, but these weigh 48 g instead of 91 g.
Even if only half the weight is calculated as mass the savings are still significant.
Spring retainers in steel 14 g vs 32 g.
Aluminum would be 6 g, Titanium are 9.07 g and about $175.00.
7mm Intake 68 g vs 80 g.
7mm Exhaust 57 g vs 78 g
So I save at least 30 g - 39 g per valve not including the springs.
The Mini site claims each 10 g savings is good for an additional 350-400 RPM of revs.
I know my RPM is dictated by how long I want my crank to live, so no increase in RPM but hopefully significantly longer cam and valve-train life.
Thinking this should also be posted to the Paddock.
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Okay, head and parts go to HBR in Las Vegas at the end of the month.
Going to have them do the valve work and lightly port the intake and exhaust.
Not really porting so much as smooth some abrupt edges that annoy me.
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Whew!
Looks like my Wossner pistons clear the cross-flow head squish area.
Tried with and without a head gasket and they clear either way.
Of course they clear more with the gasket in place.
Need thrust washers before I may assemble the lower end.
Also delaying until the head and rockers rebuilds are finished.
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Surprising.
The flattened area in the first pic seems odd - the squish 'bulge' usually more rounded if I recall.
Presumably the head has already been relieved?
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Head before cleanup and old pistons.
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And what is the squish in the flattened area?
You wil also want to check again with the cam and valves in place to make sure the valves clear.
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Thanks for the pics - interesting, and hey, if it clears, it clears.
Do I remember reading somewhere that these Wossners needed less chamber relief?
I never saw that explained at the time but perhaps they have a different shape or are not intended for the stratospheric compression ratio of the Renault Sport items.
If that's the case, Wossners might permit more options as to relieving the chamber with less compromise to the squish area.
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Head was already modified for the old pistons.
It may not be done in the "Standard" manner but does clear OK.
I like that the Squish is mostly intact rather than the head becoming a true Hemi.
I think Wossner actually has a conventional dome until you get to the Bump in the center.
Salv says the actual compression comes out a bit lower than their published spec.
So hopefully my 4,200'+- altitude and good gas along with my electronic ignition means I will not have issues. :holdurbreath:
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Yes, and it's hard to tell how different the Wossners might be without a side by side comparison, I guess.
What is the quoted C/R of the Wossners?
Someone in the Europa world (anyone here?) had these customs pistons made by "Ross Racing Pistons" but I don't know any more than that.
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I know I bounce around a lot on task, I have to do what the budget allows for the day.
Todays minor win was to finally get the old "Firewall" remnants removed.
I had thought it was bonded in from one side or the other, but it seems to have been bonded from both sides.
Surprisingly tough where it had never been water/oil soaked.
The ragged 'Glass edges around where it had failed really annoyed me.
So I got out an air saw and trimmed them up.
Probably have to remove more but I think I want the body on the chassis for support before I do that.
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Classic cars really are getting harder to keep on the road.
I need to buy thrust washers for my Renault engine.
Never expected such a simple part to be so difficult to get. :headbanger:
Seems no one in the USA has them.
Maybe the Canadian shops?
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I found mine on FleeBay and waited , and waited . I know what you mean. I consider my car a truely international car now. The timing chain and rails are another wait.
Dakazman
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I originally thought I wanted a S2 but all the Renault engine sourcing parts issues makes me glad I have a Twin Cam.
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I know I bounce around a lot on task, I have to do what the budget allows for the day.
Todays minor win was to finally get the old "Firewall" remnants removed.
I had thought it was bonded in from one side or the other, but it seems to have been bonded from both sides.
Surprisingly tough where it had never been water/oil soaked.
The ragged 'Glass edges around where it had failed really annoyed me.
So I got out an air saw and trimmed them up.
Probably have to remove more but I think I want the body on the chassis for support before I do that.
You are also really getting to know how it feels to work on the car with body on. working with the body off is much easier and less back breaking.
I'm the opposite, now I feel the pain of working with body on. Gearbox was much easier bare frame
Bouncing around also speeds up the small gotcha's and gives you time to work out details. details being where to work on the next set of parts and to arrange garage to better suit your needs.
Dakazman
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I am still happy to be on the path to the exact car I always wanted.
Renault-TS is not that hard to get parts for, just a little annoyed that the R16 was sold in the US, but thrust washers should have been ordered along with the other imported parts.
It will still have more HP than a Twink with no water pump or short valve guide woes.
It also adds Lightness over a TC.
Almost ready to take my head in for rebuild and mild porting.
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Lotus TC engine vs a Renault wedge engine (stock S1/2)? No contest, TC every time. It makes more power out of the box and has potential for lots more.
Lotus TC vs Renault crossflow? That’s a trickier question. Both have similar power outputs and power potential. Both chew through mega $$$$ above 140-ish hp. Renault engine is lighter. Lotus TC can be made to spin 9k ($$$$$$$ and not for long). So, like I said, tricky.
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I noticed someone, Bean maybe? who sells an aluminum TC block. Would building a TC with that balance the weight differences? Askin for a friend.
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I am sure it would go a long way toward equalizing the difference, but the cost! :huh:
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Yes. It’s just “win the lottery” thinking. I’m thinking more realistically of sprint cams and Mikunis. But I still have a car to paint and get back together.
Watching you work out a good “recipe” for your engine has been interesting. I was sorry to see the beehive springs didn’t work out. They looked interesting. Good luck with the rest of it.
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Surprisingly tough where it had never been water/oil soaked.
The ragged 'Glass edges around where it had failed really annoyed me.
Yeah, we sling off at this 50 year old 'fibreboard' but if it had been properly sealed at the factory, I reckon it'd probably go for 100 years!
Probably have to remove more but I think I want the body on the chassis for support before I do that.
Reckon that's a good idea.
Most folk replace the firewall with something much more rigid so it occurs to me that the 'weaker' fibreboard would likely be more accomodating of a mis-positioning stuff up.
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The old chestnut.
Here in Oz, we didn't get any TC/TCS's via the local Lotus concessionaires at the time. We may have received a couple of S1's but mostly they were UK spec S2's (and a couple of 47's).
As such, all ours came with the 1470cc engine which was already going out of fashion by the time Renault sold them to Chapman.
We also had a Renault assembly plant so it's not surprising to find that most S2's have already graduated to crossflow engines.
Anyway, you could compare a TC vs Renault crossflow, but then you'd need recognise that a TC is essentially just waiting around for a Zetec transplant.
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Gavin,
"you'd need recognize that a TC is essentially just waiting around for a Zetec transplant", this has crossed my mind...
We will see what the future holds. And I hopefully haven't upset anyone with a Renault engine as I think all the Europas are great!!
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Turbo,
Nah . . . I doubt you've upset anyone - certainly not me and I hope we aren't all too precious to accomodate different perspectives.
I reckon we all have far more in common than we have differences.
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Nothing directly noteworthy on the Lotus this weekend but I did remove the old two-post lift I had.
Turned out it was junk, someone had badly overloaded it, or just loaded it wrong.
I will be taking a trip to get a used replacement lift in the morning.
I now know what to look for so I do not get burned again.
Lift is a necessity for me to get the body on and off the Lotus as I work by myself.
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Got the new lift home, much cleaning and some repairs to be done.
Appears to be a GM Dealership take-out.
Benwil TP-9 with actual roller bearings instead of cheap plastic slides.
My build is clearly taking too long, Iv'e forgotten what these tools do. :-[
I know they came in the set I bought for fitting the head.
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Those look like tools to hold down the liners using the stock head bolts.
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Raised some funding, not enough to just buy a new body as I would like.
But should be enough to complete my engine? :confused:
Certainly hoping so, head and rockers shipping to specialist in the morning.
Found oversize thrust washers at Dave Bean for $5.50 and ordered them along with some other small parts.
I may not need oversize but they will at least give me something to measure from.
All I want for Christmas is a running engine! :holdurbreath:
If it were not for the bodywork being SO onerous the Lotus would be the simplest car I have to complete.
Instead I may have to set it aside for a while and try to complete the El Camino.
Sold my big truck and now have nothing to run even small loads with. :headbanger:
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I second “all I want for Christmas is a running engine”!
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Head and rockers shipped.
Now to wait for the work to be completed.
Back to the bodywork grind.
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Lotus seems to be taking a holiday while I wait for the cylinder head to be completed. Might be Christmas, but I do hope this year.
Going to try to get back onto the body soon but at the moment all my time is going into putting up the used two-post lift I bought.
Most service work for these requires pulling them down and apart, so I am doing all I can before putting it up.
Looks like I also have to throw my Morris Minor PU together ASAP, even an undersize truck will be better than the current none.
It will be getting the Kent 1600 and a T9 box, along with MGB suspension.
Yah, that will simplify assembly. :headbanger:
But it will get me big brakes, a much stronger diff, and wire wheels.
Around 100 HP and OD should make it very practical to drive.
Even when the Europa is finished the Morris will be the daily driver, particularly in winter.
Had hoped to focus on the El Camino, but the engine I am building is NOT a DD type and there is a lot of fabrication to do for the Jag IRS.
MM is the only really practical car I will have.
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Not much directly Lotus related in a while.
But I do finally have my two-post lift standing upright and close to the final location.
It's going to need some repair, I am anxious to get it into service as it will make lifting bodies off and on much easier by myself.
Also built one of the notched beams to use at the rear for two jack-stands.
It may also come into play for the lift.
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I may get some relief from the current holding pattern next week.
My TS head is to go on the workbench at HBR.
I enclosed a note with it but hope to get a call to make sure he understands exactly what I want done.
Unlike the cam debacle I see the head as irreplaceable.
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HBR did call to discuss the head build. :)
I had to dig through some notes from Salv but it should be all good for completion now.
Fitting up the light valves and spring setup, plus mild porting.
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Spending money equals progress, right?
Got the cost for my head rebuild and mild porting.
$700.00, paid half today.
Work should be done in a couple more weeks.
So it looks like except for the rockers rebuild I may indeed have my engine almost ready to assemble before Christmas.
Rockers can go on after the main assembly.
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I hope your $1400 does equal progress. I’m not up on what head work goes for nowadays but even if that represents a ridiculously cheap price, it’s still $1400!
I hope it ends up being a ridiculously cheap price for you!
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Not tracking exact cost too closely so that I do not scare myself.
About $700.00 for the whole job, put down $350.00 today.
This includes labor for replacing all the guides and modifying the spring seats in addition to a regular performance valve job and mild porting.
I will be close to $1,400.00 if the tricky valves, springs, guides, and rocker shaft/rockers rebuild are included.
I am sure a normal valve job would have been much less.
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Ahhh!! I misread your post. You paid half of the $700 bill not that $700 was half the bill! Jeez..
My comment still applies. $700 is not an insignificant amount of money, especially when there is still a lot of other things you’ll be spending your money on.
Good luck!
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At this point it is "In for a penny, in for a pound".
Unless finished to a very high standard I will remain deeply "under-water" on the car.
So long as I am still able to drive that does not matter much, but when I become too feeble it would be nice to pay off the house.
So I have to restrain myself from getting too crazy in order to keep the value up for a larger pool of buyers.
But this is a "Bucket list" item I must build to my satisfaction too.
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It’s good that you have a plan. For some of us here, the calculation for how long we’ll be able to get in and out of our cars is a serious issue. Then we need to have a plan for what to do with it after that.
Get ‘em built and drive ‘em while you can!
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It’s good that you have a plan. For some of us here, the calculation for how long we’ll be able to get in and out of our cars is a serious issue. Then we need to have a plan for what to do with it after that.
Get ‘em built and drive ‘em while you can!
Amen. It certainly is a little different technique in 2023 than it was in 1981
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It’s good that you have a plan. For some of us here, the calculation for how long we’ll be able to get in and out of our cars is a serious issue. Then we need to have a plan for what to do with it after that.
Get ‘em built and drive ‘em while you can!
Amen. It certainly is a little different technique in 2023 than it was in 1981
Indeed! I have certainly noticed the procedure involves more grunts and groans than it did ten years ago.
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This issue came home to me when I met Lloyd Cayes. He used to write a technical articles about the Europa in Lotus Ltd.'s publication, "ReMarque" entitled "Semi-Colin." He shocked me by telling me he was going to sell his immaculate Europa. How could maybe the "ultimate" Lotus owner sell is beautiful baby? He told me he was having trouble getting in and out of it. At that time, that possibility, not to mention eventuality, had not occurred to me!
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A couple years ago a fellow showed up at my door, saying he had an old Europa from his youth stashed in a barn. He was thinking of getting it running, and, since I had a Europa, asked if I might have a look to see how much work this might involve. He was a big man in his late seventies or eighties, and hadn't been in a Europa since he parked his in the barn in 1979. I popped over and had a look, driving my own Europa. His is a '72 Twin Cam stored in a wet barn, and the snow tires still fitted were a testament to the frame condition. The car needed a restoration, and he was keen to dump some money in it so that he may recapture a little of his misspent youth. I was willing to help, but I very much doubted he would be comfortable in a Europa, if he could even get in it. I hated to break this news to him, so instead, I offered him a ride in mine. He had much difficulty getting in the passenger side, and probably wouldn't have fit behind the wheel. We went for a long enough drive for him to realise his own reality check. I haven't seen him since, and I guess that Twin Cam is still in that barn.
As a side note, I noticed the car still had the original, infamous plastic fuel Tee between the carbs. I said "this is the first thing to change before trying to fire it up", and as I grasped it lightly with my thumb and finger, it crumbled into a dozen pieces.
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At 5'10" I fit fine so long as my weight is under control.
Winter is harder and the Yo-Yo dieting is not good.
So I will get very serious about that when the car is near to running.
I was told over a decade ago that I would be in a wheel chair in three years due to an old back injury.
I've fooled the doctors so far but some days are not good, I've decided that time is now more precious than money.
So I scrape up funds as needed and just pay whatever it takes.
Very intent on driving it in 2024 even if it is still in primer.
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Paid off the head rebuild today, may get it back around the end of next week.
Rebuilt rockers and shaft are to be here on Monday.
Ordered some "Jet Lube MSO2" spray, figuring it cannot hurt for lifter faces, cam lobes, rocker tips, distributor drive, etc.
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Must be the holiday season, got my rebuilt rockers today.
Sent them here, http://www.rockerarms.com (http://www.rockerarms.com)
Disassembled, cleaned, stress relieved, honed, tips reground and hardened, rocker shafts center-less ground and hard chromed.
No bronze bushing as the rockers are so thin.
I would like to have just bought new but they are impossible.
With the recent work these should be superior to original.
Roller rockers would be nice but unless I get another CNC mill to make them myself there is just not enough demand to bring cost into the realm of reason.
Not certain if I will retain the factory spacer springs or replace them with custom aluminum spacers.
Still waiting for the head to come back.
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Just made my third attempt at getting CORRECT leather shaft seals for Weber DCOE's.
Coming from the UK and I hope the pics are accurate.
What I got from US sources are far too thick and do not fit over the shaft.
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I’ve gotten my leather seals from Pierce Manifolds (https://www.piercemanifolds.com/default.asp) and had no problems with them. Keith Franck, who runs https://vintagetechnologygarage.groups.io/g/sidedraft/topics and probably knows more about DCOEs than anyone, suggests soaking the leather in mink oil before installing them. You might try that.
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Paid the $151.54 balance on the head work today.
So $851.54 total including port work and shipping. :o
Add in the price of the valves, guides, springs, rocker shaft assembly rebuild, and this is a very expensive head.
Salv Sacco stated that I should be a bit over 130 HP with this build, that was before the port work.
From here I may be trying a couple more tricks for increased longevity but the horsepower race is over.
Pics once the head arrives next week.
Yep, I think I will be adding a rev-limiter.
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Cold but dry and sunny day, so used up the rest of the blasting soda I had.
If shipping was not so bad I think I would sell both of the bodies I have and just buy a new one from Banks.
Getting the old paint, bondo®, and bad prior repairs off is only the beginning. :headbanger:
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What's the fun in that?
I left a few of the PO'S repairs only to see the horrors arise after painting. I can't argue the fact, your thinking is correct.
Take it slow and think of it as meditation. LOL sand, prime , repeat, then sand paint repeat ,.. then sand, polish, repeat
your, your worst critic. make concessions.
Dakazman
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"Concessions" are just impossible for me.
The flaws would shine in my eyes like a spotlight every time I look at the car.
I can get it done right, just dismayed at the time it will take.
Going to inquire again about shipping cost, never got an answer last time.
Tired of "Working on" my cars, want to DRIVE them.
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I may be getting myself into trouble again.
Seems I may have found a source for aluminum Renault flywheels.
Sent an inquiry today.
http://ttvracing.com/product/lotus-europa-s1-renault-r16/?type=flywheels&engine=europa-type-46&manufacturer=lotus (http://ttvracing.com/product/lotus-europa-s1-renault-r16/?type=flywheels&engine=europa-type-46&manufacturer=lotus)
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That's a steel flywheel. Bonus that it takes a standard clutch.
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About 7.5 Lb.
I realized it is steel after I posted.
Only feature I do not really like is that starter ring gear appears to be integral.
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The light steel Renault flywheels are available.
"£387 including shipping to the USA".
I have to wait but am happy to have found them.
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Good find indeed. The other steel flywheel I know of only takes a special 180mm clutch. This is better for a road car.
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Got my head back from HBR today.
Looks very nice, lightly ported and minimally milled.
Too dark to get decent pics so will try again in the morning.
But here is UPS contribution to my heartburn!
Yes, I will be complaining to them.
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Ouch!! :headbanger:
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Good head porting pics are still being difficult with this digital camera.
For real photography I would have to revive the film camera.
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Found some "Before" pics.
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Hmm, several senders to identify and replace as needed.
One appears to be a thermal vacuum switch, doubt I really need it to function.
Two look like temp senders, oil and water?
But both are in the head.
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The one with the single (broken ) connector is the original temp gauge sensor (Renault). The other two are sensors for the fuel injection system: one to control the cold start injector, the other a temp sensor.
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Thanks, so I can just use them as plugs since I expect that finding actual plugs to take their place would be about impossible in the US.
Single terminal temp sensor is the same as used for my temp gauge?
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The broken sensor would match the Renault gauge. It probably won’t match your gauge.
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Since none of these plugs appear to be pipe thread I think I will try to remove the plastic portions and fill the remainder with epoxy.
I think that will look better than obviously broken senders.
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I was able to clean up three of the four useless senders on the lathe by turning off what is not needed.
I will fill the body of the other with epoxy.
Getting close enough to having a running engine that today I pulled my junk? R16 transmission off the shelf.
I will remove the bell housing and adapt it to a flat plate for use on my engine test stand.
Penetrating oil applied for what good it may do.
I am ready to begin putting the oil galley plugs and some senders back in the block.
When I dismantled it I was shocked at how loose some of them were.
Recommended sealant aside from the copper crush washers?
I have been leaning toward blue Loctite.
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I would not use loc-tote or sealer. I would also go with aluminum sealing washers over copper.
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Do we have a source for aluminum washers?
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McMaster-Carr has them.
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Applied epoxy to the remains of the FI vacuum switch.
Set the "Lotus" valve cover on the head and realized that there are several voids next to it that will be traps for road grime.
Anyone ever fill these with something, and if so, what?
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Finally got the new shaft seals installed on the Webers. :)
I used Dielectric grease instead of regular grease.
I do not remember where I saw that suggestion, it is supposed to last longer.
Now I may complete the rest of the rebuilds.
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Could you make a sheet metal cover for those voids?
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The voids behind the manifold studs aren't much of a problem if I recall and you'll need to get a spanner on the nuts there anyway.
My heads doesn't have those shallow 'voids' above the timing chain either - presumably that's an alternate feature on some heads. Mine also don't have that little coolant outlet between #3 and #4 ports.
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I just made an aluminum plate for the one sensor but may run it all the way .
Just haven’t gotten back to this engine lately.
Dakazman
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Lots of variations in these heads, mine does not have that sensor location.
The bottoms of the voids are very rough and deep.
I think I may partially fill them so that they are at least smooth enough to be easily cleaned out.
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You would think parts prices would no longer shock me.
But $100.00+ each for simple K&N filter assemblies has.
So instead of replacing the the old bright yellow painted pieces I have stripped them back to bare metal.
Whoever painted them scuffed up the chrome, so I will be painting them again.
I am not really a big fan of chrome in places where it is difficult or impossible to polish so avoid it for almost anything but bumpers.
I will probably paint these to look like aluminum.
And if I ever get the "Spare time" I may just replace them with a fabricated aluminum air box.
My original cross-flow valve cover is also now surplus to my needs, I wonder if it has any value?
It would be good to offset some expense.
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Valve cover is sold.
Finally got all the old clear finish removed from my intake manifolds.
They did not look good with it flaking in some areas.
Manifolds are almost polished after all the wire brush work but I know they will tarnish quickly unless repainted.
Polished does not match the Webers so I will probably soda-blast them and apply a clear finish.
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Head rebuilt with trick reduced stem diameter valves, rockers and shafts rebuilt.
Hmm, new pushrods are Unobtanium, even Salv Sacco has no source for them.
So I asked around and found a company who will make new to order for $112.00 per set plus shipping.
Modern steel parts and a fraction lighter than original.
At five sets the price drops 15%, $95.20.
Which is less than the cost of a single new K&N air filter.
Group buy? :confused:
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Renault16Shop has them listed (no idea re stock) at €24 each . . . so that $112 looks pretty good by comparison.
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Not sure why I have so much trouble locating parts at Renault 16 shop?
I was there just this morning, did not see pushrods.
They do list the lower timing gear I want and new sliders/tensioner.
Shipping pushrods from California to Nevada is probably cheaper too.
Mailing the samples off in the morning.
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Weber 40's rebuild would be complete if the last person to mess with them had done it right and the rebuild kits I bought had been more complete.
My kits did not include a new float needle and seat, fuel filters, or the pump rod gaskets. But they were still $35.00 each.
I will have to order those parts, the Redline Site is now terrible for finding them on line.
If they do not have them I will probably have to go to multiple sources, or wait about three weeks for The Dellorto Shop.
I would advise anyone contemplating a Weber rebuild to find the most complete kit available even if it seems overpriced.
If you cannot verify the contents in advance you should probably look elsewhere.
The cost and delay of chasing down niggling parts is ridiculous.
I did change out the main jets from 105 to 130.
Every reference I found says this should be much closer to correct.
My float levels were WAY off, so much so that I wonder if the DPO was trying to compensate for something?
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I’ve had very good experiences with Pierce Manifolds for my Weber parts. Like you, I’ve found the Redline website unusable.
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Redline now states that they do not sell to the public, go to distribution.
So why do they still have a website?
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Today was special!
I finally began putting parts back on the engine. :)
As part of that effort I modified the cylinder hold downs I bough shortly after finding the engine was going to need a rebuild.
I had to cut curves into them to clear my pistons.
I also made up some spacers to take the place of the rocker stands.
They are needed to use the original head bolts with the hold downs.
My oversize pistons will be installed from the top since the rods will pass through the bores.
I did take Salve Sacco's advice and fit the brass oil restrictors under the cam.
This should increase my oil pressure just a bit, which may be offset by the hollow billet cam with oiling at the lobes?
Looks like I will have one more small order from France and just one more tricky mod to do.
Final trick is that I intend to send my timing chain and sprockets out for Cryo treat.
This is claimed to virtually eliminate chain stretch and is not expensive.
Not much point in my fancy adjustable cam gear if the chain is going to stretch and alter the timing. ;)
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Nice!
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Nicely done.
Oil restrictors reminds me of a my buddy who raced a Shelby Mustang with a 351 Cleveland engine. He needed oil restrictors for the cam circuit so there would be adequate oil pressure and volume at the mains and rods...
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Small order placed with the Renault 16 shop tonight.
Only source I could find for a new lower timing chain gear.
Once it arrives I intend to send the set out for Cryo treat.
30,000 miles seems like short chain life to me.
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Anyone have a source for the illustrations from the "PR Book" that Renault16 shop uses on their site?
I managed to copy some of them to my photos file and then circle the parts I was having trouble ordering.
This would be easier with more legible pics and text.
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Small order placed with the Renault 16 shop tonight.
Only source I could find for a new lower timing chain gear.
Once it arrives I intend to send the set out for Cryo treat.
30,000 miles seems like short chain life to me.
30,000 miles for a timing chain! Are you sure? A belt lasts longer than that!
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Timing chain to be checked and possibly replaced at 30,000 miles.
That is what I read, this site or one of the manuals, not sure.
I agree that is very short life.
The sport bike guys stretch chains quickly, they are long and do insane RPM.
Cryo is making a real difference for them so should be even better for our cars.
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30k miles seems low to me. It’s not a long chain and I have seen them with way more miles than that.
Racing? High rpms? That’s another matter. You’d be pulling it down for guides and rings a lot sooner than that. Probably change the chain at the same time as well but it wouldn’t be why you’re pulling it down.
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Hmm, my post of a few minutes ago disappeared.
Haynes R16 manual, page 36, item 36.
"It is a sensible precaution to renew the chain at about 30,000 miles (48,000 km) and at a lesser mileage if the engine is stripped down for a major overhaul".
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I don't see the need myself. Certainly not in the Lotus or Renault manuals. Keep up with the oil changes and you'll be fine.
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The good news is that the weather was so nice I worked on my Lotus body today.
The bad news is that I dug out old Bondo® and found out just what a botch job some "Bodyman" (8 years old?) did on my left front fender.
Now I have to decide how I want to repair it properly.
Choices seem to be cut the fender off my other body and graft it on, or make a splash mold for a new part.
Either is a lot of work.
I kind of hate to destroy the spare body, plan has been to keep it around in case I seriously crack this one up, get rear ended, etc.
Anyone have an S2 left front section they do not need?
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I have a model 54 left front what do you need?
Gary
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The good news is that the weather was so nice I worked on my Lotus body today.
The bad news is that I dug out old Bondo® and found out just what a botch job some "Bodyman" (8 years old?) did on my left front fender.
Now I have to decide how I want to repair it properly.
Choices seem to be cut the fender off my other body and graft it on, or make a splash mold for a new part.
Either is a lot of work.
I kind of hate to destroy the spare body, plan has been to keep it around in case I seriously crack this one up, get rear ended, etc.
Anyone have an S2 left front section they do not need?
Can you lay a piece of plastic or wax paper on the spare body area and lay some glass to duplicate the fender? a picture would help. I think you'll be much happier that you tackled the repair sooner rather than years later.
Dakazman
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Type 54 would be great, but since mine is a Type 65 I would have to change the whole front half.
I can make a splash mold IF my other body is strait enough.
Wish I were wealthy enough to just buy a new shell.
Price is actually cheaper than significant repairs until shipping comes into it. :headbanger:
I wonder if Sports Car World might have what I need?
Time to call them.
It seems that unless a body is completely stripped you cannot know what past sins have been committed.
Both of the bodies I have need some repairs.
I may have to set this one aside and fully strip the other to decide which to use.
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Thats definitely not a small repair job , but better to start addressing now. True to find a donor would be the easiest but in sections, after you do a rough mold of an area to cut out as much of that repair. One at a time so you don't through off the bonnet pivot point. When cutting out cut straight lines the bevel the OEM side so your rough fits below the surface on both sides . a double bevel from both sides in the layup.
Dakazman
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Selection of metric woodruff keys showed up this evening.
I did not expect that Renault would use odd proprietary sizes.
Looks like I am now covered 15X over, plus a dozen other sizes.
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New US made Manton pushrods came today.
They may not be quite as light as original but will be super strong.
Certainly no flex with these, particularly with the short length.
Now that they have done a couple of sets a simple phone call should be all that is needed to get more.
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Thanks for taking point on this. Received your PM . I really appreciate your help.
Dakazman
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A little disappointed to find that the adjustable cam gear will be no easier to install.
The gear fits behind the flange which is still pressed on.
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Rich,
Wow , Finally opened package.
The pushrods were first rate. I may have to swap them out with those I have in crossflow now on the stand.
Thanks again
Dakazman
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Been a bit lethargic with the Flu but today my new lower timing gear and thrust washers arrived, along with some trivial items.
Now I will be able to send the timing set out for Cryo treatment.
Once that returns I should be able to actually assemble the engine!
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Silly me, I should have known a step forward is followed by step back!
Comparing the new lower timing gear to the old it is certain that I needed it.
The ends of the teeth are noticeably broader, indicating significant wear to the old gear.
Now, if only it were the same thickness as the old one! :headbanger:
.097" thicker, possibly not a problem?
I can thin it down if I must, I even have a guy with a surface grinder to make it an exact match.
For a final frustration I just took the timing chain out of the package, it has a Master Link! :headbanger: :headbanger:
I always consider a master link the WEAK link, and experience has born that out.
So it seems I am on the hunt for a different timing chain.
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Reading the chapter on engine assembly in the manual to make sure I have all I need on hand.
Nope, seems I need a couple of 10mm studs and nuts for fitting the front bearing cap and seals.
Hopefully the local hardware store may have something to use.
Still waiting on the 'endless' timing chain and then Cryo treat.
I've also decided how I am doing my engine and trans mounts.
Engine mounts similar to what Serge did but with Poly bushings.
Seems a reasonable compromise for NVH without excessive sag or expensive future replacement.
The bushings are only $15.00 a set.
Same for the trans mount, of which the stock item is apparently made of platinum.
Also reviewed some of my suspension bits, the AVO shocks look fine with only one bushing to replace.
I think my big challenge will be fabricating up bias-bar dual MC's.
I have an idea roughed out but need to purchase the MC's for completion.
Come on warmer weather!
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Finally got the one-piece timing chain.
Chain and gears will go out for Cryo treat in the morning.
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Today was "Powder paint and OCD".
I replaced one trailing arm with a brand new part several months ago.
It came powder painted which is supposed to be a good thing.
But the surface finish was rough, it looked like it had been painted over rust, or was covered in course leather.
No way it was ever going to match the other arm I have in the electrolysis tank.
I do not want to strip the powder paint but I know there are issues with PP proponents fail to mention.
PP tends to build up along edges, including bolt holes.
It can be brittle and chip, exposing bare metal.
If it is not flat around bolt holes it will chip where the high points are from pressure.
So the OCD was me wet sanding the entire arm down to flat with particular attention paid to the aft end where the hub carrier and brake mount are going on.
Next I need to find an over the counter spray paint that will adhere well.
Really nothing to see in a Pic beyond the shine now being flat black.
Next up will be clearancing all the bolt holes, I've run into that issue before.
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Moved the frame off the build table and onto a stand that is a nice height and narrow.
Much better for starting to put suspension back on.
Stripping an MGB-GT for parts.
Some to sell, some to use, and some just scrap.
I may use the inside door releases for my Europa, they do NOT have the silly little lever that can get you locked out. ;)
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Piddling progress is still better than none.
Got my rear deck screens cleaned and painted, they look like new but the mesh may have a little slack. Not a show car, happy to save a couple of bucks.
Rear tailing arms are fully cleaned and painted at last.
Got new Energy Suspension bushing and some tube ordered, anxious to get the new engine, trans, and trailing arm mounts made up.
Mocking front suspension parts it seems I may need to make some spacers to center the AVO coil-over shocks properly.
Upper ball joints are still as new but the rubber boots have rotted away during storage so I guess I will be buying new BJ's.
On feeBay Lotus were $20.00 each more than Triumph. :FUNNY:
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You can buy just the boots. British Parts NW, and others, have them.
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Triumph forum has a lot of complaints about the rubber boots falling apart.
For only $5.00 I am going to try a set of Energy Suspension 9.13105G
I expect the poly will be more durable.
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Started on modifying mounts,
Cannot complete them until my parts arrive on Wednesday.
But that did get me to thinking about fitting the new seals to the transmission.
Which has me wondering where to get the bellows type seals for the rear shift link?
Would be nice to not have to wait for another slow order from France.
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Heard from Nitrofreeze this morning.
Seems they have a $90.00 minimum, I should have sent more pieces. :o
They also use UP$ for shipping, nearly $40.00 for a simple timing chain and gears.
I only spent $8.00 shipping to them via USPS Flat-Rate.
I have made payment and should have the pieces back next Wednesday.
Then I should finally be able to assemble my engine.
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I fell you pain. wait till you have a internation shipment
Dakazman
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Still beating my head against this obstacle, WHICH alloy to use in making new transfer tubes?
No idea what the tubes RD Ent., and others have are made from.
Stainless 304 was not good, maybe in a fully annealed state?
Aluminum 6061-T6 is also useless, maybe T4, or O?
Of course the useless alloys are all that is readily available on-line. :headbanger:
Someone should have the alternatives in stock.
I expect to have to make a long drive to pick it up once I find a source.
FYI, just buying transfer tubes and having them shipped appears to be about $900.00 now. >:(
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I bought mandrel bends etc and welded it together…..
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I have the bender, dies, and bad eyes.
Would not be able to trust my own welding.
This has now become a challenge so has to get done.
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My local NAPA said they could bend up to 1-1/4” tubing .. maybe a local shop could do them?
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Almost anyone can "Bend" tubing, it is getting clean wrinkle free bends that is a trick.
For exhaust they actually make dies that force the crinkle at the inside of the bend.
Mandrel bender is silly expensive or I would have one.
From what I have been able to learn I just need to find a source of annealed material.
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This was for hydraulic lines … I don’t think they crinkle those that I have seen …. they closed the shop here so I guess it doesn’t really matter
Just trying to be helpful
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Our transfer tubes are a bit odd for size which also limits material availability.
I am at the point where I want to put them in now so annoyed this is being difficult.
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Our transfer tubes are a bit odd for size which also limits material availability.
I am at the point where I want to put them in now so annoyed this is being difficult.
Why don't you want to use AL? The last set I had made were bent up from the proper size galvenized exhaust pipe, for what it was worth. I have a set of AL pipes here that will certainly last long after I've gone west...and the system is only running at 7lbs pressure. Originals were mild steel...and lasted how many decades? Installed properly, I've no doubt that they would outlast any of us building these buggies.
The pipes are isolated from the chassis in grommets...so (should be) no dissimilar metal contact for electrolysis. I have a set for the TC: 6061-T6, 1.25" OD. Mandrel bent, no ridges. Will probably give them a light alodyne and zinc chromate (Yes, I have the PPE and booth available to do it) anti-corrosion treatment. Can send photos to comfirm.
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I am fine with Aluminum if I could just find material that would form properly with my JD2 bender.
It seems 6062-T6 is too brittle and T4 is unobtainium.
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Rich: Sometimes it is worth finding the craftsman who can do the job right. They are far and few between, especially now days when everything is just rip and replace. Building from scratch is becoming a lost art.
These pipes were bent by someone who knew how to use a mandrel bender properly (last photo is the material type). The extra cost meant that it was done right and the angles are what they are supposed to be. Seamless 6061 pipe, bent properly in a hydraulic mandrel machine using the originals for a pattern, may end up costing less in time and materials than trying to figure out an alternative solution which may work, but not as cleanly.
No criticism of you or your thought processes...but having done this a few times, it's worth the extra effort in the end.
Good luck!
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I am out the back of beyond with no one reasonably nearby.
Even Reno appears to have no one beyond muffler shops.
China-Virus wiped out most of the craftsmen.
I've got both tubes fully drawn in Bend-Tech 7 as well as my samples.
I am confident I can do this as soon as I locate suitable material.
As a last resort I may have to buy bends and weld them.
Just cannot do $900 for such a simple part.
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Rich, is there a race team or race shop nearby? Failing that, have you checked for welders and or fabricators nearby. With all the commercial buildings in and around Reno, there must be someone who can reliably weld aluminum.
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Semi-Local fab guys have the same issue, getting material at a sane price.
Waiting on quotes.
In better news, my Cryo treated timing set came back today.
No visible difference but should last much longer.
Need to figure out which local store has dry-ice as I want to make putting the cam gear on as easy as possible.
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May have found a source for tube.
UPS site says they accept up to 108", which is just long enough.
$21.20'!
Plus shipping or the drive to go get it.
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:pirate:
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OKaaaay, about to begin actually putting this engine together.
I will be checking clearances one more time.
Local stores no longer carry dry ice so that will be a long drive this weekend.
Wondering if I should try any lubricant at all when fitting the cam gear?
At 10mm valve lift my billet cam is a bit extreme? :confused:
Only have one big bore head gasket and need to fit the head to check valve to piston clearance.
I do have a vernier cam gear to use so getting timing right should not be too hard.
It seems CAT CAMS does not state valve events the same way we do in the USA.
So I may have to work at translation.
I have a scrap bell housing to bolt to my test stand for running in.
I will have to be very creative to fit the engine though, or the exhaust will not clear the test stand.
First thing is that I will have to offset it a lot.
Another is that I will have to set it far forward of the normal mounting plate.
At least I have a scrap block to work with. ;D
My exhaust was custom made by the last owner.
He was very proud that it is "Exactly equal length".
I have considered replacing it though.
The routing to the rear is not great as it requires no storage box or severe modification.
The cross-flow headers from Europa Engineering are £525 plus shipping and it seems reviews are mixed.
I may have to take a stab at making my own.
Still musing about roller rockers, I have another company to inquire with about getting them made.
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Do not lube a press fit.
I can't recall anything unusual about fitting my cam gear, just a straight-forward job.
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Agree with JB on pressing cam gear on. Don't recall having to use dry ice either.
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More minor progress.
Fabricated new engine mount frame reinforcement plates as the old were thin and rusted.
Also exterior profiled a pair of plates to match up for engine mounts.
These will get a steel tube welded to the center for Polyurethane bushings.
Not quite so much NVH as rod ends but should have less give and sag than original.
Refurbish at $15.00 a set is attractive too.
Pics when they are nearer to completion.
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Still trying to do at least a few items on the S2 every week.
Todays very minor progress was to fire up the Mill and cut a slot in heavy plate steel so that I will be able to press on the cam gear.
Yes, I know, must have pics!
I am still a bit concerned with aligning the cam gear with the keyway.
The slot is not visible once the cam gear is set in place and will not be able to be rotated once pressing has begun.
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The keyway is not visible in your photo. Is the gear keyway not cut all the way through?
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Yes, the Gear keyway is cut all the way through.
But the half-moon key is not visible once the gear is set on the end of the cam.
I will try to make a mark for alignment using a sharpie.
Renault cautions not to remove and replace the gear.
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Well, looks like I should have followed my instincts.
Tried to press on the cam gear at room temperature.
Now it is scrap. :headbanger:
I measured it and thought it was a very tight fit.
With a 30 ton press almost anything can be moved.
The hub center galled badly and was obviously not centering properly.
Hopefully I can buy just another center hub, but doubt it.
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Bummer, Richard. Maybe a machine shop can clean it up?… Otherwise I hope you are able to get a replacement.
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Email sent to the vendor.
Probably have to buy a whole set.
About $300 as I recall.
At least I did not damage the Cryo treated gear.
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The stock gears just press on.
Take it to a machine shop and bore it and sleeve it to suit. Bring the cam so they can set the press fit clearances properly.
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Is it galled all the way through?
Any chance it'll clean up?
The Alpine A110 rally cars installed a bolt in the end of the cam for sprocket retention. My assumption (guess) was that this was a belt 'n' braces mod because I expect they were taking the sprocket on and off more often than Renault intended. As we know, Renault say to install a new sprocket each time.
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Hard to believe, but I cannot seem to remember/find where I bought the adjustable cam gear. :headbanger:
I had some hope that I might be able to just buy the damaged hub but that is impossible if I cannot find the same manufacturer.
EDIT: Cat Cams.
You would think they would fit well to the same brand cam?
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Gorblimey :o, just paid $607.00 for a set of new water transfer tubes.
Gave up on saving a few pennies, just not worth the endless hassle and I need them in before the engine.
Should have waited to buy the black S2 being stolen on BAT.
Fix the all black paint, add some proper air filters, detail the engine, and still spend less than half what I will have into this car.
:blowup:
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Frustrated with the pace of this build. :headbanger:
So I've put several of my non-Lotus treasures up for sale. :holdurbreath:
Plan is not to buy Lotus parts directly, but to buy a VMC to make custom parts as a source of income. :FUNNY:
Yah, probably not an immediate income but I have to do something for the longer term.
No jobs local and I am not a strong back. (The mind is still a question!)
I have found the machine I want, it is cheap but shipping is not.
I've had VMC's before and am looking forward to making, umm, Roller rockers?, GOOD billet air boxes, billet uprights?, billet de-mister vents (Or dies to stamp them from aluminum?) and whatever else seems feasible.
Not limiting myself to Lotus but also not making any effort to compete with all the Chevy/Ford guys.
Just need one or two of my items to sell ASAP.
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I'm pulling for you, Richard! Maybe you and Chuck Nukem can work together on something...
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feeBay came through on my ultra-rare SBC valve covers.
So I may now pay for the VMC.
Shipping cost is still an issue, it is nearly three times the cost of the machine. :headbanger:
I've begun trying to revive my CAD skills, that is not going to be quick.
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Sorted through my three sets of wheels.
Found that the CSS "Basket Weave" are nearly the same off-set as the Cosmic's so should not alter handling if I swap them out.
I put the American Racing "Spectre" set up for sale, the offset puts them 1.125" further out.
I suppose that makes a "Wide Track" car.
Tires are now off the CSS wheels so I may clean them up.
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Finally have a delivery date for my new transfer tubes.
Still uncertain if they will be one-piece each or two.
I offered that they could be cut to reduce shipping cost as one weld would not bother me as several would.
I will have my answer on Monday.
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I had my S/S ones shipped without getting cut . Remember to order the tubing seals / gaskets for the frame and put them in before tubes. Ask me how I know…🥱😵💫
Dakazman
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Richard,
If you need any of the rubber chassis grommets that D’Man mentioned I can send you 4 ( I bought a bag of them from McMaster) (same goes for anyone else)
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I bought a set several months ago.
Finding them is the problem, they are not where I was sure I had put them.
Life WILL be simpler when I have fewer projects. ;)
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I have that problem …. ::)
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:FUNNY: :FUNNY: :FUNNY: :FUNNY: :FUNNY:
Dman
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New stainless transfer tubes arrived at last. :)
Single cut each made them much less expensive to ship.
Shipping was still more than the parts. :headbanger:
A little disappointed that the bends are not as nice as original tubes.
Now I need to find someone very good to put them back together. :welder:
Even with that I have saved a couple hundred dollars over the US sources.