Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Lou Drozdowski on Monday,November 09, 2020, 12:42:41 PM
-
I need to vent first...and I don't mean charging gasses.
My expensive Optima AGM battery has given up the ghost after only three years. Mind you, I don't use 3307R that often, perhaps a few more sorties would have made a difference but, she has always been on a battery maintainer when stored.
Yes, I have a new style charger specific for glass mat technology, and it was showing a good state of charge of 12.8 volts...cranking amps?...forget it...it should be 800 mine was 50.
I don't usually bad mouth a product, so I'll issue a warning. Optima told me to pound sand. Two months over warranty and they won't help. They just lost a customer.
I guess I'll go back to old school and get a flooded style...your thoughts? recommendations?
-
I had an Optima batter in the beginning and at some point, I figured it was dead (don't remember the specifics, it was some time ago). Since then, I've gotten regular old lead/acid batteries. They are cheaper and although a good charger would be better, they seem to be able to take garden variety trickle chargers (I use an old 3 amp charger for mine). If it doesn't last as long, I figure I might have let it discharge to far and I get another. At about $100 or so, it doesn't hurt that much but when you get toward $300, that's not fun.
I have heard a lot of good things about Odyssey batteries and literarymadness told me he was using some fancy lithium ion battery and he likes it.
-
Thanks BDA...
I think I found out why my battery went south...you'll like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKo5iJ2rH7o
-
I quite happy with my Odyssey lawn tractor battery, selected solely because it fit between the frame diagonals when mounted on its side. Someone left the door ajar at my storage garage last winter so the interior light drained the battery to zilch. I thought the battery was ruined, but it charged up and holds a charge just fine now. And yes, I am planning to disconnect the battery this winter.
t
-
I had a Optima yellow top battery in my vette , lasted just past the warrantee. No more expensive batteries for me .
The best is just to run your vehicle as much as possible. sitting for months on end even with a trickle charger on them, don't last.
Thanks for the video Lou. That's where they built my vette motor also and it didn't last .
Dakazman
-
+1 Odyssey
The last one I changed lasted 12 years.
-
I’m not sure that I will ever go back to the standard flooded battery again. There are too many better options out there. I have also been using the Odyssey PC series AGM battery for my Europas, the PC 680 for the TCS and the PC 925 for the S2. In my S2, there was insufficient cranking amps with the PC680 during 40 degree SoCal winters to start the car reliably. After 3 attempted starts, the PC680 would die and would have to be put on a charger overnight and this was with the stock starter.. On the TCS with a gear reduction starter, there was no issue cranking the engine until it started with the PC680.
Some other options used by the Elise boys who seem to obsessed with low weight batteries are:
Braille (https://braillebattery.com/collections/intensity),
Shorai Lithium-Iron (https://shoraipower.com/batteries-c41)
Deka (https://www.amazon.com/deka-batteries/s?k=deka+batteries)
-
I am using an Earthx battery. It weighs only 4.1 pounds. It cost $385 and the aluminum holder was $50. It cranks like crazy because the voltage is slightly higher and its series resistance is less than a lead acid battery.
It replaced an Odyssey pc680 which worked very well. I just wanted to save 10 pounds.
So far, it works great.
-
Pfreen - what model number is that from EarthX? I also thought I might buy a battery from them. I just haven’t figured out what size to buy.
-
Thanks BDA...
I think I found out why my battery went south...you'll like this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKo5iJ2rH7o
Thanks for the video...
Unfortunately there's been a similar scenario with the transfer of work from the UK to supposedly "cheaper" production areas elsewhere in the EU - often using using EU 'grants' to fund the costs.
:WTF:
-
My Odyssey pc680 in my Elan lasted 9 years. It started to bulge and it wasn’t holding a charge. Just a word of caution for those with lithium batteries. I have abit of experience with Tesla Model S modules in my EV Europa. Lithium batteries must never be charged when the battery temperature (not necessarily the ambient temperature) is below zero degrees centigrade. Not an issue for you pfreen in Florida! That’s why Teslas still have a normal 12V battery for powering auxiliary systems when the main pack temperature is below zero. It will warm the pack up sufficiently to accept a charge.
Not really too much of an issue as most of our Europas are tucked up nice and snug in a garage but just something to be aware of.
-
The Earthx battery is a model ETX680C and the holder is a model BB-CO
-
I use a Deka ETX20L AGM. I think it's 16 or 17 lbs. Not the lightest but bang for the buck is the highest. It has no problem cranking a 3.5L. I leave it on a battery tender in the summer when not started.
Name brand
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Deka-Power-Sports-ETX20L-Battery-Harley-Davidson-65989-97A-and-65989-97C/273768204102?epid=1201020003&hash=item3fbddb4746:g:K2cAAOSwqZJciuUn
Off brand
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Deka-ETX20L-310-CCA-Replacement-Battery-By-SigmasTek/323562042252?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid%3D53bb6c50312d47fc9a09c0d375e64801%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D273768204102%26itm%3D323562042252%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithDarwoV3BBEV2b&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
-
How many CCA do you need to start a Twin Cam?
-
How many CCA do you need to start a Twin Cam?
TurboForce...A good rule of thumb for cold cranking amps, a battery should have 1 (cca) for every cubic inch of engine displacement.
1558cc = 96cu...add another 10 for the solenoid...about 100 would be average.
-
Surfguitar, I like your battery location. Is there a weight savings in the Odyssey battery over a small, wet cell battery?
Lithium batteries must never be charged when the battery temperature (not necessarily the ambient temperature) is below zero degrees centigrade.
Not really too much of an issue as most of our Europas are tucked up nice and snug in a garage but just something to be aware of.
I'm curious about this. Is there a danger in attempting to charge a cold battery, or will it simply not accept a charge? Many years I run my car until the first salt appears on the roads, which may mean overnight or early morning temps below zero deg c (and therefore a battery temp below zero). I am interested in a light weight battery solution and have been wondering about lithium.
-
The EarthX batteries are a lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery, which is a different chemistry than the batteries used by Tesla (LiNiMnCoO2 I think). The energy density is a little lower, but it's significantly safer (1). In addition EarthX include a battery management system (BMS) on the battery, which in their words "protects the cells from over discharge, over charge, short circuit, temperature, plus cell balancing to ensure charge levels are equal". Most other brands selling LiFePO4 starter batteries don't include the BMS and are therefore cheaper.
EarthX sell their starter batteries for aircraft, ATVs, motorcycles, scooters, race cars and snowmobiles. Batteries for snowmobiles must be able to accept a charge in cold weather. But then I suppose aircraft batteries have to cope with a range of temperatures too.
What I would like to know is why EarthX and other sellers of LiFePO4 starter batteries don't market them to weight conscious road car owners. I guess it's a regulatory issue rather than a practical one.
Edit: I just found their FAQ (2) - it sounds as though cold weather isn't a huge problem, but you must have a charging system that will regulate the voltage between 13.8-14.6V, or you could damage the battery. Older cars and motorcycles might not have well behaved charging systems, so not recommended without upgrading the charging system.
(1) https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/TC-16-17.pdf
(2) https://earthxbatteries.com/faqs
-
Thanks for that, Gideon. A lot of great info there. Reading up, it does indeed seem important for the charging system to be of a particular specification, and to be in good form. It would seem prudent, in my case anyway, to consider an alternator/regular upgrade if considering a lithium battery. I must say, the potential weight savings is certainly tempting.
-
I just have a modern alternator on mine. It is a 95 amp Triumph TR7 alternator. It fits fine. It is more amperage than is recommended (60amp) but it works fine. If the battery was dead, I would definitely bench charge it. As is, it never goes over 30 amps.
I have the big alternator because I have ac and I don't want a heavy discharge at idle.
I think Earthx just ants a modern alternator charging system.
-
Surfguitar, I like your battery location. Is there a weight savings in the Odyssey battery over a small, wet cell battery?
Not a lot of weight savings, I had a size 51R wet cell up in the frunk that weighed 29 lbs, and the Odessey PC925 weighs 28 lbs. Both are overkill in the CCA according to Lou's formula.
Tom
-
So a motorcycle battery for something like a Harley would crank over a Twin Cam ?
-
The modern gear reduction starters seem to crank the engine a lot faster so I assume the required cca is less. The Earthx battery cca is 320.
It cranks great on a tc.
-
So a motorcycle battery for something like a Harley would crank over a Twin Cam ?
It cranks my 10.8:1, 3.5 liter V6 no problem. I know a lot of Miata guys run similar batteries with 1.8l engines and longer cables too.
-
Agreed that LiFePo4 batteries are a lot safer than Tesla’s NMC batteries. However, the problem of dendrite formation on the anode is common to both chemistries. These are tiny tree like spikes that grow on the anode under certain conditions. They can eventually grow enough to touch the cathode causing a short. This will degrade your battery over time. Treating them well, like anything, will vastly increase its life. Don’t overcharge, don’t over discharge and don’t charge when the cell temperature (not necessarily ambient temperature) is below freezing. You can get heating pads rather like the sump heaters you have in Canada/Northern US. Perhaps not as hot though.
-
I must be missing something here as this looks too easy.
Some of the Shorai batteries weigh next to nothing and cost about the same as a standard lead-acid battery.
I've also wondered about using one of the new very small modern Japanese alternators.
The combination should be good for 20 Lb. in weight savings. :)
Currently my car is fitted with a very heavy and oversize battery mounted up front.
The very long cables cannot be helpful and an oversize battery as ballast is a poor crutch for correcting the front becoming "Too Light" at speed. ???
So a 14 AH 250 CCA battery should work fine with my Hi-Torque starter?
-
Currently my car is fitted with a very heavy and oversize battery mounted up front.
The very long cables cannot be helpful and an oversize battery as ballast is a poor crutch for correcting the front becoming "Too Light" at speed. ???
My battery was up front when I bought the car. I was advised the long cable run through the chassis was an invitation for insulation wear and eventually a catastrophic short circuit. Maybe, maybe not, but the thought scared me enough to relocate the battery.
t
-
I have the same series battery as Surfguitar, a 51R lead acid flooded wet cell and it weighs 28lbs. It is a Duracell battery which is made by Eat Penn Mfg. in PA.
The size is 9 1/2inches long x 5inches wide x 8 3/4 inches high. The 51 worked in my Twin Cam because the terminals were in the proper place and the battery resides on the LHS in the engine compartment. I was $125.00 but now I see it listed on Amazon for $139.99. In Illinois we have a chain of stores call Batteries Plus and their Ray O Vac batteries are made by East Penn.
I do have a single Ray O Vac 48 AGM in another car and it has been fine so far. I do not keep it on a trickle charge and I don't use the car very often. It is garaged kept. I say a single battery because it is replacing two groups 91s that I felt were overkill. I make sure to start and run the car every couple of weeks though. It is about three years old.