Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: califkid_66 on Monday,July 08, 2019, 08:26:49 AM
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I am reassembling my crossflow and i know there is a place with all the info and sequence torque i ne
But i cant find it
I need to put the shaft that turs the distributor in the right position i know on the wedge it as to be parallel to the cam but on the crossflow i can’t find info
I just need to reassemble the head
Thanks
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I’d recommend getting a factory manual from an R16 or R17. It’s mostly the same as a wedge but there are some differences. You HAVE to have the tools to line up the head to the block otherwise the distributor drive gears will destroy themselves.
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Wouldn’t just putting the head bolts align the head
And when you say to get the manual are you talking about the drake manual for r16
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No!
The head bolts will not line things up correctly!
Steve V sells the tools. You’ll find the details on this page:
http://lotus-europa.com/forsale.html
Please, please do not attempt it without the tools!
You can use an aftermarket manual but I prefer the factory manuals. Usually you can find a copy on ebay.
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JB i value your advice very much so if you say no well its no i will get the book and alignment
tool im in no rush im doing my research gathering the parts to make it right
Thanks again
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I’m travelling right now but I could lend you my tools if you would like. Send me a PM if you’re interested.
PS: I get things wrong at times and hold sadly mistaken beliefs just like anyone else.
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Following on from JB’s points, one of the main reasons to use the correct tools is to properly align the dizzy with it’s drive gear that fits onto the splined oil pump shaft. That needs to be pretty much dead nuts on as you might imagine.
There’s a hollow locating dowel on one of the central head bolts but that alone can’t achieve alignment of the dizzy.
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I just went in the garage and i put my head on the block
And i see exactly what you guys mean there is one sleeve on the block for alignment but its not enough there is a lot of movement so there is no other option than to use an alignment
tool
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HI:I used a dial indicator to make sure that the cylinder sleeves were protruding equally when I rebuilt a 1470.
I know that if I had not there was enough discrepancy in heights(even though I used the same colored bottom seals and thoroughly cleaned the sleeve seats) that I would have had premature head gasket failure.
Take your time is the best advice I can give you on top what others have said.
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The Renault engine is simple but it has several critical assembly requirements that often get missed. This results in people blaming the engine for their own foolishness.
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Oups i didn’t mean sleeve i meant locating dowel
my sleeves are ok
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I just went in the garage and i put my head on the block
I promised myself to let this one go.
Anyone ? :FUNNY:
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Ya my head on the block 😂👍
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Off with his head! (Untill the proper tools are in hand.)
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Ok did some shopping now just need to know wich alignment tools i need cause there’s more than one
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If you contact Steve he will guide you to the correct items you need . He set me up awhile back. He is very knowledgeable.
Dakazman
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What is you engine type number? It should be on an alloy plate on the starter side of the block near the flywheel. For example, mine is an 807-13.
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I cannot really use the identification plate but according to my research
The block witch is alu cleon is a aluminum block tha came from a Renault Fuego the plate on the block as A7L written on it
And the internal crank rod pistons all came from a r17 the bore is 79mm
and the head is from a crossflow Renault gordini it is ported and polished
It looks like it was freshly rebuilt i have twin Dellortos and they never had fuel in them
I removed the head to see what i had
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That engine should have o-ringed liners which do not require shimming to set the sleeve height. Look for a manual for a Renault Fuego Turbo rather the early R17 one you pictured earlier.
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Ok i will ,and you are right its not the paper shims its rubber seals
But like i said the only part of the fuego that was used was the block
I already ordered the books but i figure the more books the better
and since all the parts came off a r17 there might be good information in them
The book for r16 is gonna be useful for my 821 and for my 336 tranny
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G’day califkid,
If the block is an A7L and came from a Fuego in NA, that likely means it’s essentially an 843 block.
The 843 numbering kinda morphed into the later nomenclature to become the A7L.
Got a pic with a side view of the block?
It might also be worth casting an eye over this thread to help ID some block differences.
http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1748.0
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I have these two pictures i can get better ones that’s the A7L block
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Front and back i can get better pictures when I go in the garage
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Thanks for the pics.
You may notice one of subtle difference between the older 807 & your 843/AL7 block is the inclusion of additional mounting bosses (red ellipse). These bosses also appear on the 841 (wedge head) block.
Have you figured out how you’re going to drive the water pump and alternator yet?
If I recall, you have part of a hall effect timing arrangement in that alloy pulley on the cam.
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Like i said all the parts came of the r17 its only the block and maybe the liners cause they are the ones with rubber seals 79mm
The cam came from the r17 so it long and drives all the pulleys on the fuego there was a crank sensor for ignition signal the po fabricated the aluminium pulley with four earth magnet to make the signal from the cam to the original distributor but i don’t have the rest of the system
the head i have no idea but i showed it to someone who told me it was a Renault gordini head i think the valves are bigger i will measure them cause the head is off
In the previous pictures the pulley was not installed
I will not use the aluminium pulley as a signal i want to get a programable distributor like JB but for now i have a friend that got me a r17 distributor just to get me started if all goes well i will order the programable one
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Thanks califkid and Galvin,
You both supplied a good deal of information. Califkid, your engine is amazing. I’ll be reading about your progress.
Dakazman
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Ahhh . . thanks for that close up of the pulley. I didn’t notice it could accommodate a V-belt in the previous pic.
It looks to be smaller than the stock pulley.
While you’re measuring the valves, it’s probably a good idea to measure the cc’s of the combustion chambers. That would allow you to calculate compression ratio.
Actually, yours is a good example of the mix ’n’ match capability with these engines.
I expect it’ll perform really well.
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Ok now that you started on the subject you know now you have to tell me how to measure the compression ratio cause this is another subject i want to learn about !!
For the size of the pulleys i didn’t mesure but i was thinking of borrowing the ones from my 821
The one on the cam for two reasons one it looks like a bigger diameter wich means it will turn the water pump faster and you can adjust the tension on it
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Here’s how I do it for the head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqAr4DUqEt4
Given the pistons are irregular in shape and likely protrude above the liner at TDC, you’ll need to do a similar procedure to find the volume of that piston projection at TDC.
i.e. lower a piston in the bore a measured distance and use the plexiglass plate over the liner to discover the volume.
(Be sure to install some liner retainers before moving the crank with the head removed.)
Apply the math based on the engine stroke and the distance you lowered the piston into the bore to come up with the volume of piston that projects into (and subtracts from) the combustion chamber volume.
For example, you might measure the combustion chamber to be 34cc’s and find that the piston projects into the combustion chamber by by 3cc’s.
From there, you can figure out the compression ratio or just use one of the many on-line calculators.
These calculators typically also do the fiddly bits like the head gasket volume and the Summit Racing one also does the piston "dome".
Here’s the Summit Racing one:
https://www.summitracing.com/newsandevents/calcsandtools/compression-calculator
Make Archimedes proud. ;)
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Usually I check carefully the clearances of the valves, piston and head from each other with clay and not bother trying to figure out the exact combustion chamber volume. If I need know, then I carefully place the piston on TDC. Smear vasoline around the edge of the piston to seal it, torque the head in place and use a burette with light oil through the spark plug hole.
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I like your method, JB - simple, elegant and foolproof.
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Both ways to measure are pretty good but it would seem easier to do it your way JB one thing i don’t understand is ok to smear to seal piston then install and torque head fill spark plug hole with light oil then you’ll know size of combustion chamber but after do you disassembled the head and clean that up or once your head is installed it stays there and just crank a few times to empty combustion chamber sorry im really easy to confuse
Thanks
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I suppose you could leave it assembled but usually you would remove the head after checking the combustion chamber volume. Once you have your compression ratio calculated, you would make any adjustments required and match chambers, etc.
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G’day califkid,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but in your case you are just needing to establish the compression ratio to be sure it’s suitable for a road car, yeah?
If so, and given you already have the head off, I’d just use JB’s brilliantly simple method.
Just one caveat; be sure to install the old head gasket and also smear that with Vasoline on both sides to ensure a seal.
For the clean up afterwards you probably won’t be able to get all of the Vasoline that went down between the piston and the bores but that’ll disappear in the first puff of smoke when it’s fired up.
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Yes Gavin i just wanted to know what the compression ratio was to give me an idea of what i have it should be 9.25:1 but the head as had some work done so there are a lot of variables witch will affect the compression ratio so i will measure it to know exactly
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Today i did some measurements i used my caliper and a 10 cc syringe
I measured everything 3 times
and used the program from summit
Bore 79 mm
Stroke 84 mm
Cyl head volume 32.373
Dome volume 1.5
Deck clearance 0 Used a straight rule piston flush with liners
Compressed gasket .050
I measured the thickness of the head 3.625 in
According to my measurements my compression ratio
Is 11.26:1
Was thinking i was gonna be around 9.25:1
I don’t get it maybe my head as been shave to get more compression
I don’t have my books yet to compare numbers
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Hmmm . .
Is that 0.50 field entry meant to be .050” ?
For me, the Summit calculator didn’t seem to like mixing imperial and metric measurements and using .050”, it calculated a silly 5.42 : 1.
I changed it to 1.25mm which is close enough to 0.50".
Also, the Effective Dome Volume is supposed to be -1.5, not +1.5 because the dome reduces the combustion chamber volume.
After those changes it calculates to a Compression Ratio :12.08 : 1.
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Here’s another calculator.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
I guessed the gasket bore diameter to be 80mm.
Calculated result was: 11.71 : 1
So, there’s some differences between the calculators.
With that large raised area on the pistons, I was doubtful it’d still be 9.25:1. Wasn’t that the stock CR with flat top pistons?
Anyway, there’s ways to get it down a bit. It’d be worth examining the pistons to see if some of that flat plateau could be taken off without compromising the crown. Maybe machine a (more or less) symmetrical dome like the 17TS pistons?
I’d nearly bet there’s some excess material on the left hand side of the plateau in your pics that could be deleted. An engine guy should be able to advise & guide.
A thicker head gasket would get you closer, too . . or a combination of these things.
Do you have a pic of the combustion chamber?
Did you do this using JB’s method?
It kinda looks like you might have done it “freehand” without using a plexiglass plate.
Using JB’s method, you’ll get all the variables accounted for in one fell swoop.
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The pistons are not crowne they are flat no protrusion i put a straight edge on them at tdc they are the same height as the liners on three sides they are a bit lower by 1.5 cc i filled the cavities with oil to make the piston flat so the 1.5 cc as to be added to the combustion chamber
I put the deck at zero cause the piston was the same height as the liners
For the cylinder head volume i filled up with the syringe until it was flush and it gave me the same result 3 times 32.373 cc
I measured the gasket .050 inch witch is 127 mm same results
Bore is 79 mm stroke 84 mm measured with my caliper
so all my measurements where entered in the program and the results 11.26:1
All the measurements are correct
I will try to calculate manually
If my compression ratio is to high i can remove some material from the combustion chamber what is circle in red
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The last calculator didn’t ask how many cylinders
I found another one used mm and cc
It gave me the same as summit
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G’day califkid,
Curiouser and curiouser . . . but we ain’t stumped yet.
So, two things:
1. I can’t recall exactly, but I’m nearly positive the combustion chamber volume on a stock head is over 40cc’s.
2. What is the thickness of the head?
The stock 807 engine is 3.681” (93.50mm) and I’d expect the 843 to be the same.
To this end, could you provide a pic showing that small narrow channel at the hole where the dizzy mounts?
Your combustion chamber has already had some material removed (red circle).
You can remove more but it apparently starts to get close to the water jacket, so be careful if you go this route. Also, there’s no real way to know how close you are and there’s the additional possibility of accidentally creating localised thermal issues.
That said . .
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Hi Gavin my head is 3.625 inch
as for measuring the combustion chamber i was doing it wrong
I remeasured using a plexiglass with a small hole on the chamber and i filled it up with water until all the air was out
the results where much different i have 36.5 cc so i redid the calculator and it gave me
9.16:1 compression Ratio wich is perfect
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Is this the part you wanted to see let me know
And by the way i was told it was a real gordini head and the intake valves are 42 mm and exhaust valves 35 mm i have 36.5 in combustion chamber on head and im gonna remeasure my dish on piston witch was giving me 1.5
So if you add them up im at 39 total my 1.5 might be off but like i said im gonna check again
Also you wrote stock head is 3.681 mine is 3.625 that’s 0.056 difference witch could account for the
différence in size of the combustion chamber
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Hi califkid,
Result! . . that’s good news then.
Actually, at 9.16 compression you’ll probably be looking for a thin head gasket to get it up a bit.
Thanks for the pics.
Yes, I wanted to see the small cast in channel. It’s a very crude measure but it does provide a quick visual guide as to whether the head has been skimmed because it disappears quickly if it has.
In your pics and my last one, it’s gone completely. No biggie.
Just so you know, I wouldn’t get too attached to the “real” Gordini head thing.
Amedeo Gordini was a Renault tuner (among others) and made a name for himself at Renault with the Dauphine in the late 50’s.
The Renault 12 Gordini, and the similar engines found in Alpine 110’s were a much later development and it’s highly unlikely Amedeo had a hand in those. All that later stuff morphed into Renault Sport somewhere along the line, but Renault still use the Gordini name as a marketing distinction . . and, hey, why not.
That said, it’s good yours has the larger valves. That's a plus.
This is the one I could really lust after.
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Ya that’s good news! I know how to measure now i was to much in a hurry and skipped some steps and im not use to this type of measuring but i now how to use plastigage micrometers and calipers so im gonna check all the moving parts
I don’t need the engine right now so im gonna Read the books i ordered and follow the steps to put it back together
I still have my wedge in the Europa im in no rush to finish the crossflow but the plan is to put it in for next summer
Thanks for your help
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You two are well on your way . Thanks for the pictures showing the amount of removed and where.
I posted a picture here to only give a perspective of a stock head to compare the work done on your heads.
The areas circled in yellow show the most difference.
Dakazman
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Thanks for the pictures i see all the differences im just going to clean mine im not gonna remove anymore material cause im using the same pistons and it would only reduce the compression ratio
I just recieved my workshop r15 r17 manuel it was printed in 1971 very detailed as the 807 but not the 841 or 843 there is a book another book that came with it it amendment there is info on the 841 specifications and showing the other type of liners im waiting on a r16 Renault workshop manuel and one from fuego
Now i have been reading this book and i was reading about the drive gear for the distributor it says put at tdc and the slot as to be parallel to the camshaft now here is where i got confused when i look at the wedge the engine is at tdc and in the picture it is parallel to the cam no problem
But when i look at the crossflow they write put tdc then there is a diagram showing to put the drive gear at 53 degrees now is it because if you put it at 53 degrees when you put it in as it goes into the hole it will turn on the camshaft gear and end up parallel to the cam wich would make sense
Thanks
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Thanks for the heads up . I purchased the same manual r15/17 first edition 1971.
I found a Renault website called Renaultclub.us. No pdf manuals there or wiring diagrams. Some
Parts for sale... Gordini specs are well hidden.
Dakazman
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I didn’t want to touch the block but i just realized i have a problem at first i wanted to know what position to place the distributor gear but before getting an answer i went to pull it out to see if id place it at 53 it would slide down and end up parallel to the cam but by doing this i discovered a big problem so i will have to take the block apart
The problem is that the distributor drive gear was rubbing on the head when i pulled it out i saw some metal chips here are the pictures the bottom of the gear you can see where its rubbing
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Now i have been reading this book and i was reading about the drive gear for the distributor it says put at tdc and the slot as to be parallel to the camshaft now here is where i got confused when i look at the wedge the engine is at tdc and in the picture it is parallel to the cam no problem
But when i look at the crossflow they write put tdc then there is a diagram showing to put the drive gear at 53 degrees now is it because if you put it at 53 degrees when you put it in as it goes into the hole it will turn on the camshaft gear and end up parallel to the cam wich would make sense
Thanks
No, the drive gears are set differently depending on engine type.
The wedge drive gear should be parallel when at it’s final (installed) position.
The crossflow should be at 53º when at it’s final (installed) position.
Also note where the slot offset is intended to be.
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Ok thanks it was bothering me it wasn’t clear my y engine is 843 so that would be 53 degrees
Now im still waiting on some book i have to figure out why the bottom of the gear is rubbing on the head there must be a way to adjust the height to pevent the rubbing
There is only two reasons possible for this rubbing that i can see is that one the shaft is to low
Or the head was not installed using the alignment tools
I need advice for this one
Thanks
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Yep, that 53º is common across all crossflows which includes the 843.
The drive gear will contact the head if there’s no gasket installed.
If you tighten down the head without the gasket and attempt to turn the crank, you’ll very likely beak a tooth off the dizzy drive gear.
Ask me how I know.
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Thanks for letting me know the position it needs to be
Oups little mistake when i was talking about the rubbing it wasn’t on the head my mistake you can see in the picture it’s rubbing on the block under the slotted gear drive so this part is not affected but the gasket its below it looks like the top of the oil pump shaft is a bit short and when the drive gear is installed it is to low and rubs on the block it is to low
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Apologies - I missed that post.
By the looks of the brown oil stains on the block where the dizzy drive sits, it isn’t rubbing on the block.
When the engine is running, the camshaft will tend to lift the dizzy drive on it’s spline.
The pic of the lower outer rotating surface of the dizzy drive, while not perfect, looks OK.
Are those metal chips on the top end of the oil pump shaft?
If debris is suspected to be in the engine, take off the main crank caps & rod journals to check.
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Yes there is metal chips left when i lifted the gear off
i remove some chips if you look at the pictures you can clearly see under the gear and on the block where it rubbed or more like grinded enough to cause some damage
this is not normal
there is grinding causing metal chips like i wrote before and yes when the engine will run it might push it up the parts might slightly rub with oil in between but not to the point of grinding and making metal chips and causing damage to the parts
In the pictures i can clearly see where the chips comes from i know there is a problem i just need to know why it did this and how to solve this
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Ahhh, OK califkid, it looks like we were working at cross purposes.
I now see the scuffed areas you’re talking about.
The actual damage pictured likely doesn’t matter much but the potential for debris in the oil is of more concern.
Best to remove the crank main caps & rod journal caps in order to check for possible damaged bearings.
Be sure to mark each bearing cap so they go back to their original place & original orientation.
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Yes i am going to take it completely apart
But i have to find out why this happened
I am hoping it was because no alignment tools where used and the distributor was prying on the shaft causing it to rub if that is the case i will file and sand down the damaged parts and with good head alignment it should be ok
But if someone as any idea or as had similar situation i would really like to know
Thanks
Because this engine is starting to anoye me a little specially when i have this in the garage waiting to be used
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Could only speculate as to where those chips came from.
The odd thing is that there seems to be a couple of chips on top of the oil pump shaft itself.
Perhaps examine the location tang on the dizzy itself to see if it’s damaged. If so, that might explain it.
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If you don't use the proper alignment tools it is very common for the distributor drive to self-destruct.
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The chips where from under the gear i am gonna order the alignment tool
My question is are the damages i have due to misalignment of the head
and if i files and sand the damaged to remove the damages if i use the alignment tools will it be ok or do i have to change the gear
I have not put the head back on and didn’t turn the engine it was like this when I got it it’s just that when i pulled the gear out i noticed the damages
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Califkid,
I have reread your entire thread again. PLEASE, for your own good listen to GalvinT and JB, and the future voices in your head and...
Remove the engine and inspect it.
Err on the side of caution, which you have expressed since page 1. Flush the motor and clean all passages. Parts are not cheap and now at least from my little understanding of these engines is replace the distributor gear. You have a unique power plant there . Talk to a machinist.
Dakazman
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Yes and yes it is going to be taken apart completely and reassembled my first idea was not to touch the base i remember JB ´s advice to remove the liners and reinstall the plan now is to take it all apart i will measure every part and change the ones that need to be changed now i have been speaking and asking around about my oil pump drive shaft cause that’s what it’s called!!
And i think i found the reason for the rubbing grinding
According to a person that is very nolegable in these engine the oil pump gear is pushed upwards when turning and the distributor gear hold the oil pump drive gear at the right height so being that my head had work done on it and the distributor had no gasket under it the distributor was pushing down on the oil pump drive gear and did not leave any clearance under
My head mesures 3.625 witch is 56 thousand of an inch lower so to get the gear at the right height i would have to shim with gaskets under the distributor then i would have some clearance under
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This is a copy of my conversation with Richard Mann i thought this info might be useful at least one less mistery to solve
I just looked at 3 dizzy drives. All the same. All show the same thin annulus on the bottom side which is the contact face. My deduction is the dizzy drive is being loaded downward. This means the head is pushing it down or the dizzy.
If it's the head, that means the block (and liners) have been decked. I've done this to a few engines to get compression into double digits.
The dizzy should have a paper gasket under it. Maybe it's not there.
Ok if i understand correctly when the engine turns the oil pump drive gear sort of kept at the right operating hight by the distributor so the distributor that i had on the head must have put pressure on the gear and made it rub on the block
If this is what you’re saying then it makes a lot of sense cause the head had work done on it and and i measured it with a caliper 3.625 thickness and a 807 head is 3.681 so my head is 56 thousands of an inch lower witch mean my distributor was probably pushing the drive gear down and there was no gasket
I had the fuego distributor but now i have a r17 one but i want to get a programable one
So i should measure the clearance between the drive gear and where the distributor sits and adjust the clearance with gaskets
Well done! I think you've deduced the root cause of the problem. I think Renault recommend no more than 1mm or 40 thou. They say this to avoid the issue you've encountered. I've removed over 3mm (head & block) on some engines, and lots of little tweaks are required.
Good luck!
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It is difficult to diagnose anything from a few pictures. As you assemble an engine, you check clearances and fit as you go along. Assume nothing, check everything.
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I know you have a lot of experience that is why i will do like you said i am taking it all apart and gonna start from scratch it’s just nice to figure out problems not to repeat them im gonna get another drive gear and i think the gear on the cam is removable but im not there yet i got three more books coming in im gonna order all gasket and parts once’s everything is apart and measured i just wanted to put the head on but after seeing the gear problem i don’t want to waste my time and redo it twice
Im going to do it once but the right way so i might have a bunch of questions in the future!!
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If someone says "rebuilt". I hear "slapped together".
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I guess that’s what happened to that engine it was a bunch of parts put together in a hurry if they would have done it right they would have checked the clearance for the drive gear so im not gonna take any chances im gonna clean and paint the parts while im at it
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G’day, califkid,
It looks like Richard is on the money but you’re also conflating two actions.
1. Viewed from the timing cover end, the engine turns clockwise.
The camshaft obviously also turns clockwise.
The dizzy drive is engaged on the outside of the cam and thus will tend to rise on it’s spline as the cam rotates.
The underside of the head is what limits the upward travel of the dizzy drive.
You should notice witness marks on the underside of the head where the dizzy drive contacts.
2. The distributor doesn’t control the ride height of the dizzy drive and has no ability to accept that thrust load.
Therefor, if the dizzy wasn’t shimmed to take into account the head having been skimmed, it’s entirely possible that the dizzy has sustained internal damage around the dizzy shaft bushing.
I’d check for axial play in the dizzy shaft which may have ground it’s way upward into the dizzy body.
Dismantle the dizzy to inspect.
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Im gonna check but im not using the distributor that was on the engine it was the fuego distributor
I have a r17 distributor but the plan was to get a programable like JB
Like i said im gonna start from scratch one part at a time
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OK.
A programable dizzy would likely be set up for a stock head thickness.
You’ll need to assess that dizzy also.
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Im still waiting on my workshop manuel but i have two little questions that are bothering me
I know for measuring crankshaft and conecting rod bearing i can use plastigage
How do i measure the camshaft bearings ?
And my second question is where the oil pump drive gear is located in the block it slides on the shaft
but shouldn’t the outside of the gear have a bearing on the block
Im talking about where you slide in the drive gear cause its only a hole for the shaft to go through but wouldn’t it’s purpose to keep the gear against the cam gear what are the tolerance for that part and if its out of tolerance or out of round do i have to get the hole machined and get oversized drive gear or am i overthinking
After this i should be ok for a while thanks again for your help
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Hmmm . . I don’t know how one might easily measure camshaft clearances because it essentially only bears on the lower half while the upper half of the cam is unconstrained apart from the cam nose.
I’ve never heard of cam journal clearances being an issue and the same goes for the dizzy/oil pump drive gear.
Both the cam and the drive gear simply run in the ally block which is quite common.
Also, if I recall, there’s no clearance spec referenced in the manual for either component.
My presumption would be that if inspection reveals some significant damage, say, caused by debris in the oil, then the Renault recommendation would likely be to replace the block.
So, I’d say that apart from an inspection to ensure there’s no damage, no one measures it. ;D
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Have a good look at the camshaft bearing journals and the bearing shell surfaces. Smooth? No grooves or ridges? Camsahft bearing journal sizes should be in the manual. If there is any doubt about the camshaft bearing shells, replace them.
Plastiguage is used to check oil clearance on assembly. It does not check crank journals for wear, true or condition. The tools to properly check out a crankshaft are very expensive. The same with the connecting rods which can be bent, out of round, etc. Take the camshaft, crank, rods, pistons, sleeves and block (with bearing caps) to a good machinist for inspection. Save yourself some money, and win the machinist's respect, and bring him meticulously clean parts.
When disassembling the engine, MARK EVERYTHING! Liner positioning orientation, same with the pistons, connecting rods (and caps) and main bearing caps. This is extremely important.
Also keep your top end bits organized so everything goes back together with the same bearing surfaces in the same place. So keep your push-rods, valves, followers, valve springs, caps, etc all in order.
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Took the timing chain cover off it looks pretty good sprockets look new chain and tensioner to all tight
But !! I tried moving the cam no loose axial but there is movement if i push and pull i think i got the tolerance in the workshop i have so that’s another little problem Im going to use my dial gage to measure how much see how much movement i have
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I was posting at the same time !!
Like I said said im going to take it apart but i wanna measure the parts and see the condition before ordering i was under the impression that using platigage and dragging a fingernail on the bearings would let me now if they where use and needed changing
I have talked to michel at alpine America he told me to disassemble my head that he would test it the thing is i don’t want to spend to much money on this engine bearing gaskets distributor is ok i don’t mind having it checked by a machinist but i don’t
want to spend ridiculous amount of money and i want to do it myself
The reason i bought this car is to play with it learn stuff and feel the pride of having accomplished something i have micrometers dial gages and calipers and straight edge i will bring the parts to a machinist to assess their condition if the crank needs a regrind no problem ill get oversized bearing
For now im slowly taking it apart and making a list of what i notice that might not be ok
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Slowly taking things apart and cleaning the po seems to have modified the oil pan and the bad news is there is glitter in the pan so i took pictures noted on paper and will continue to dismantle
and being that it’s going to be completely apart i might as well change all the bearings the seals and gasket i would like to keep same rods and pistons and liners will ask if i need to hones the liners and change rings
There is a steam part cleaning machine where i work im gonna put the block and head in there
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Some "glitter" in the pan after an overhaul is normal. Most comes from the rings and cylinders as the rings seat into the bores.
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Ok so that’s normal there was only glitter no chips
Now should i keep the same rings and put them back the same way or should i change the rings and if i do do i have to hone the liners
I know im not there yet but im starting a list of parts to order
Thanks
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Keep the rings organized as to piston ring location, piston and liner. Check the rings against the specs in the manual. Ring end gap and clearance in the ring land is critical. Worn lands can be repaired by any good machine shop.
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Ok first what’s lands ? would that be the groove on the piston
so what you’re saying is if the liners are in good condition and ring gap is ok i can put them back in won’t need to change them
One more thing my connecting rod are bolted no nuts on top so i am pretty happy about that
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The ring lands are the "walls" of the ring groove in the piston.
Yup, if the rings are within spec, they're fine.
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When you get the pistons out , you may also want to check the rings are not locked into the grooves.
The lower oil seal is a 3 piece ring so pay attention where they splits.
Dakazman
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It's best to use a piston ring expanding tool to remove and replace rings. They can be made of cast iron and will easily break if handled roughly.
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ok thanks for all the help im gonna go play in the garage i got enough info to keep me busy for a while!!
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One more thing my connecting rod are bolted no nuts on top so i am pretty happy about that
The rods appear to be those used in the R17TS or R12G etc. with 21mm fully floating gudgeon pins.
That's good but as far as I know, the 843 engines all used 21mm press fit gudgeon pins.
I'm not 100% on that and there may have been variations, but given your mix of internals it’s worthwhile checking.
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Califkid,
I have reread your entire thread again. PLEASE, for your own good listen to GalvinT and JB, and the future voices in your head and...
Missed this one.
Thanks for the kind words, D’man but just to be clear for the casual reader, I expect JB has built more engines than I’ve had hot dinners . . as they say. ;)
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Well first i appreciate all imput from everyone!! every information helps
I measured my camshaft end float acording to the manuel it should be between 0.002 and 0.0045 now i have measured with a dial gage and im at 0.021 way to much movement
Seems it was more slapped together than rebuilt im not to sure as how to adjust this im still waiting on some books
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Someone else's rebuild is just a pile of parts stored together for convinience. Not easy to get excessive camshaft endplay, especially that excessive. Gear not pressed on all the way?
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Probably or just lack of experience I’ll never know im just happy i took it apart and didn’t try to start it as is then it would have turned into a boat anchor
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Are the chain, sprockets & tensioner new, D’man?
The manual states that a new sprocket should be installed when an old one is removed.
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Yes the sprocket and chain and tensioner are all new and i did read that if you remove it you have to replace with a new one but like JB said maybe it was not pressed in enough and looking at the camshaft sprocket i can see it is not pushed in enough now i would have to remove the cam and put it on a press to push it in a bit more to remove the slack
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What’s this hole for !!
The one between the alternator bracket
Water temp maybe
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Yup
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Ok thanks
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Well i was taking a break from wiring and i noticed this
Is that going to cause a problem for head alignment one is my wedge the one missing the alignment hole is the crossflow
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Calikid, rest easy. The wedge uses that hole with the t bracket. We don’t use that for the crossflow.
Look on page 29 of the manual R17 shown below . The hole on the crossflow is on the block for that location. See pg 30 below for the correct tool installed from the bottom up. My crossflow pic is also the same as yours. Unmilled.
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I don’t get it what i got from reading the head installation is the two studs were for locating the gasket
and once your gasket is in place you put tool number 1 and the dowel to locate the head once it is in place you remove the two studs and the head will stay in place and not move held in place by dowel and locating tool number 1 so you can put the head bolts and rocker assembly without anything moving
Now if i use the studs to place my gasket lower my head on it i will have to remove the studs to bolt the head and rocker assembly witch means the head will only have one locating dowel and nothing to prevent it from moving out of alignment
What am i missing i don’t get it
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Califkid, I truly cannot answer your question. I would do a dry run without the gaskets.
How I understand it is you put the location studs in place and attach the rear pin in also. Tappets in and the dissy aligned, place head on gently. Put the head bolts in the holes with out the studs and slightly tighten. Remove the studs and alignment pin . Then add the two bolts where the studs were.
Then torque head down in sequence.
I haven’t played around with the aft locator yet for that motor.
I have everything packed into my garage from the hurricane and cannot get to it easily.
Dakazman
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Looked at the pictures again. You took a picture of the head timing chain side. That is the front of engine where the studs go. Alignment pin 1 goes in the aft side by starter.
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The "alignment" studs allow you to drop the head on very close to where it is supposed to be. This prevents large sideways movements of the head which would possibly move the two-piece head gaskets out of position. The head is precisely aligned using the one dowel and the alignment tool. This is extremely important! The head has to be precisely placed so the distributor drive gears mesh properly. You CANNOT align the head properly using studs alone.
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Thanks Dakazman i just went to check my motor and i see what you mean there is another hole near the starter and i just rechecked your picture and noticed that on the crossflow the alignment tool fits exactly where you mentioned thanks again
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That’s were it goes !
Dakazman
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Thanks ! One less thing to worry about !!
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I don’t get it what i got from reading the head installation is the two studs were for locating the gasket
and once your gasket is in place you put tool number 1 and the dowel to locate the head once it is in place you remove the two studs and the head will stay in place and not move held in place by dowel and locating tool number 1 so you can put the head bolts and rocker assembly without anything moving
Now if i use the studs to place my gasket lower my head on it i will have to remove the studs to bolt the head and rocker assembly witch means the head will only have one locating dowel and nothing to prevent it from moving out of alignment
What am i missing i don’t get it
Yep, it can be confusing at first, but you missed a step - install the hollow dowel in place before you fit the gasket.
Consider this:
With a head installation, we are actually aligning three things - block, gasket and head.
Think of the installation as a two step process.
In the first step, we align the gasket with the block utilising the hollow dowel and the studs to determine correct location.
In the second step, the studs merely guide the head down to locate onto the hollow dowel and the alignment tool.
Without the studs in place, it'd be very easy for the head to accidentally nudge the rubber seal out of position, so do this part slowly & carefully.
It should be reasonably foolproof.
As JB says, it's important that the dizzy drive and the dizzy itself are properly aligned.
What's often not mentioned is that the alignment procedure also ensures the tappets are correctly orientated with respect to their cam lobes.
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Thanks JB and Gavin,
Both of you cautioned the tappets, condition and orientation. With that said, I started reading and watching videos on tappet reconditioning. Breaking in a cam, removing the center valve springs in a double coil and replacing after running for a half hour at 2000-2500 RMP. Now I know why I normally have the machinist build it.
Is there some documentation about the cut on the tappets? Or is it just 1-3 degree convex regrind?
Dakazman
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I had a piece of aluminium so i made an alignment tool and it worked fine just trying it with the old gasket thank for all your inputs
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Nice.
These are the dimensions I pulled off my factory tool:
9.75mm and 16mm =/0.04
You'll need to add a pivoting or removable "handle" to pull it out the bottom when the head is in place.
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Is there some documentation about the cut on the tappets? Or is it just 1-3 degree convex regrind?
There's no documentation that I know of.
The tappets are off-centre to the cam lobes so, in theory, they should spin correctly.
I've seen discussions re convex v flat surface grind, but nothing definitive one way or the other.
It's usual to have whoever is grinding the cam to also reface the tappets.
That's how I get around it.
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Both the lifters and the cam are ground to the same angle.
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What would be the best way to deal with the camshaft float I measured with a dial gage I got .021 thousand
I need between .002 and .0045
It’s a pressed in
Can it be pressed in to much ?
Would it be ok to leave it like this cause it’s tappets on the cam so they still sit on the cam lobes
Should I go to a specialized place to get it adjusted
Do I have to get a new gear
Im afraid to damage my cam
I have a bunch of books but there’s no details about this
Need help !!
Thanks!
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Been a while but I think you just need to press the gear on a little further. Don't use a hammer!
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Ok today I decided I will try !!
I used a pipe bender as a press went real nice got it from .021 to .004 witch is
In the tolerance now I was told if you get it inside the tolerance don’t touch it
anymore !!
Now my axial is ok is there a tolerance for radial or it as to be dead on
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They run in the block so examine the "races" for wear and scoring. Check the cam bearing journals for the same. Usually not an issue.
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What I meant is radial of the gear
when the camshaft is in the block
I put my dial gage on the gear pulled
and pushed .004 witch is good
Then I left my dial gage and turned the gear and
Noticed about .003 thousand of radial on the
Gear when cam is bolted in
Is that normal or my gear is crooked it’s not much
But there’s no place in the book that talks about radial only axial
Tolerance
I could take it off and try to straighten it but for 3 thousand
I don’t know
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It's cast gear. 3 thou run-out is pretty good.
Usually you fit new gears, chain and tensioner as a package.
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The parts are in very good condition it probably was never pushed in enough
Im within the tolerance so I’m gonna install it like that
Thanks for your help JB i should be ok for the rest
Thanks again!
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So how did it go? Are you on the road?
I'm starting a crossflow refurb as we speak. Many of the same issues with an engine purchased 30 years ago that once ran fine. Hoping to simply flush, remove the pan and valve cover for inspection, adjust valves as needed, check compression and leak down and on to the highway. Or maybe not, it does rotate so that is a good sign.
What did you end up with re ignition and carbonation?
Thanx
Ron
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I had a vernier cam wheel for my crossflow made so I could time the cam to the manufacturers spec / my spec.
Using a race cam from Piper cams via Salve Sacco, would possibly use my own spec cam grind now although Salve has better spec cams now.
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it’s still on the bench i put it on hold since summer came to fast i concentrated
on the wedge learnt a lot about ignition charging system carburation and i wanted to
take a ride in it and i did and it runs great so now im in no rush to finish up the engine
i have to repair or get a new oil pan i have to order a full gasket set and i want to take my time
i’ve been working a lot lately so not much time right now
what do you mean by re ignition or carbonation sorry i don’t understand
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Following your lead Califkid, these engines are full of surprises but step by step we will prevail!
Dakazman
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Califkid-66 My crossflow engine has been sitting for about 25years. "Ran good when parked" I'm doing an inspection and clean up before starting. My hope is that the compression and other checks are good enough to just install and run.
For me the ignition has always been a pain and never seemed spot on so I'm adding a crank trigger and going with the MegaJolt system (https://www.autosportlabs.com/product/megajolte-mk2_crank_fired_ignition/ I have no connection with the company). Other vintage car users claim easier starts, smoother idle and more power. At the least I get rid of the points, distributor and other misc. garbage.
Also, when parked, it used twin DCOE45's that I could never get to idle smoothly but where great near WOT. Pretty rough in traffic. I'm adding an Air/Fuel gauge to the dash and think some quality time can sort out those issues but it does seem over carburated.
(http://)
I was curious as to what you planned to use for the ignition system and carburation. (spell check converts carburation to carbonation.)
Thanx
Ron
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Megajolt looks interesting but I would suggest you consider the 123ignition as well. The Tune and Tune+ versions function pretty much like the Megajolt in programability and it is all in a small convenient package.
The 45DCOEs were what they were delivered with on the R12G. That base-setting would be a good place to start. A/FR meters have pretty much revolutionized tuning. Careful not to go too lean. These engines were not designed to handle it.
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great advice JB
as for my part i’m playing with my wedge much simpler than the crossflow for me but still giving me a hard time running all original parts except for the carburetor witch i changed for a weber.
For my crossflow i am still undecided many factors to consider like the head as been shaved about 60 thousand so that’s a lot but should be ok i have to get parts but since my engine is sort of an hybrid it is more complicated to get all the parts i would have to measure every part before ordering
for carburetors my dad used to race a seven at le circuit in mont tremblant and i remember he used to change jets depending on where he raced altitude and all i live in the mountains high altitudes go to city low altitudes don’t know how much it would affect fuel ratio ,for ignition jb as a 123 ignition for sale at a really decent price but im looking and trying to learn from others experiences
ther is a guy on another europa forum he built a crossflow had twin webers couldn’t get it to run right even with a tuner so he went efi so for now im just watching and learning
this is is setup
Link Atom ECU
Mitsubishi Magna 1992 Distributor with the base of the shaft turned down for the 16ts head (minor work) for cam and crank signal
10.25:1 pistons
forged rods
head flowed and ported
bigger valves (40 and 42 from memory)
jenvey heritage 45 throtle bodies with 350cc injectors
bosch fuel pump
TPS tune but with MAP as an adjuster
but i think in your case Ron i think if you get 123 ignition it would be simpler and cost less
and no frabrication and it would remove one of the variables that make an engine run bad if you engine is in decent condition then you only have to clean up the carbs the jetting should be ok since it’s already assembled must have ran before
please keep us updated thanks!
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My spare 123tune is gone now. I switched to a tune+ as I'm not a windows person.
Highly tuned race engines are very sensitive to changes in air density. It was very common to switch jets based on local temp and humidity. There are charts for this on the internet. However, street engines are nowhere near as highly tuned and, therefore, not as fussy about what they are imbibing. I drove my crossflow up to 5000ft and down to 0ft with no issues at all. I deliberately stuck to a modest-street cam as I was looking for drivability over ultimate hp. Why spend thousands to get 160 hp when the local soccer moms can still kick your ass with their 300hp mini-vans?
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Soccer moms 😂😂.
So true , and ...don’t piss one off...
Dakazman
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Califkid-66 My crossflow engine has been sitting for about 25years. "Ran good when parked" I'm doing an inspection and clean up before starting. My hope is that the compression and other checks are good enough to just install and run.
For me the ignition has always been a pain and never seemed spot on so I'm adding a crank trigger and going with the MegaJolt system (https://www.autosportlabs.com/product/megajolte-mk2_crank_fired_ignition/ I have no connection with the company). Other vintage car users claim easier starts, smoother idle and more power. At the least I get rid of the points, distributor and other misc. garbage.
Also, when parked, it used twin DCOE45's that I could never get to idle smoothly but where great near WOT. Pretty rough in traffic. I'm adding an Air/Fuel gauge to the dash and think some quality time can sort out those issues but it does seem over carburated.
(http://)
Ron, looking at your photo it looks like your Webers are mounted solidly which is against all advice especially on 4 cyl engines which might be why it idles poorly, correct me if I'm wrong.
I was curious as to what you planned to use for the ignition system and carburation. (spell check converts carburation to carbonation.)
Thanx
Ron
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It must be the picture. It has the standard very large O ring and springs under the mounting nuts style of flexible mounting system. There is also a rubber isolated brace under the carburetors. It never seemed that effective but I don't know of any other options.
Ron