Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Pete Gossett on Sunday,August 19, 2012, 02:24:00 PM
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I had myself talked into a Zetec swap, but reading details of how rebuilding the twink is cheaper in the long run has me doubting myself.
So I'll pose the question to the group and get the input from those more knowledgeable and experienced than myself.
These are my goals:
!.) 150ish + HP - although I'm as concerned about torque, as this will be a street-driven autocross car.
2.) Reliability - I expect the car will see about 2000mi/year with a dozen or so autocrosses, and I really don't want to worry about much more than the occasional oil change for quite a few years.
3.) Budget - cheaper is better given the choice, but I've learned enough over the years to know that sometimes you just need to spend the $$ to do things right.
I'm no machinist, so I'd have to farm out any of that work. Unfortunately, I live in the middle of nowhere, so unless the machine work is basic enough that your standard V8/muscle-car machinist could do the work, I'm not even sure where to go. I can assemble an engine once the hard work is done, so that's no problem.
I also have access to junkyard Zetecs for $75+core, and it seems twinks are worth a bit in any condition, so that may sway things as well.
I'm not really concerned about originality, so if there is another engine choice that is the more cost-effective way to reach my goals, let me know!
What would you recommend?
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For what its worth, I spent about $4000 in total including $1100 for my engine and ecu to convert my car to a Toyota 4AGE using Pels adapter, mounts, and header. I did the whole swap in 11 days being a week of vacation, the weekends on both sides of that week and then a couple more Saturdays. Depending on which 4AGE you use you could have anywhere from 120 to 170hp and they can be hopped up to higher outputs too.
I actually wanted to do a zetec conversion, but the Toyota swap just seemed so much simpler
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Wow, that seems reasonable.
Is the 170hp 4AGE you mentioned supercharged or n/a?
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The 170 hp one is N/A. It's called a black top 4age 20valve (being 5 valves per cylinder). They are the newer of the 4AGE's which actually makes it a little easier to find parts for then my older 16 valve. At least when I was looking for components I always found 20 valve parts before I found the 16 valve parts. The black top has variable valve timing so it's a little more complex then the older ones and may be harder to extract more power then stock. But again 170hp is a big increase for a Europa.
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By the way, having a cable shifter in your car makes any engine swap a lot easier. If you're thinking about an engine swap that's good place to start.
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Yes, a cable shift setup certainly seems worth the effort.
Are the black-tops a JDM-only option, or we're they available in US models?
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I had to look it up, but they are JDM. I see them so often, I thought they were for the America market too. Even my 16v is JDM though it didn't have to be. I found it was easier to get a complete engine, wiring harness and ECU all together when I got it from a JDM importer. But being JDM can be a hassel when you're trying to track down the right parts for it. There are a number of Europa owners with blacktops in their cars though. I was just talking to one of them this weekend. I'll see about getting you in touch with him.
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Thanks!
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While I'm waiting for the guy to get back at me you can ponder putting a Formula Atlantic 4AGE engine in your car like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hasselgren-Formula-Atlantic-4AGE-/270924909777?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f14620cd1&vxp=mtr#ht_768wt_986
247 hp! But at a cost of $13,0000!!!!!
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Ha! Actually, on the drive home I was thinking about guys I know who autocross a Formula Atlantic and wondering if they might have a spare engine lying around... :))
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How goes the decision making process?
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Waiting on the Dave Bean catalog to arrive, then I can start putting the info into a spreadsheet to get a better gauge on costs vs. time vs. custom fabrication and machine work.
I could probably live with 130-140hp from the twink, if that's truly cheaper than either swap though.
But I'm also not ruling out something totally crazy(for one of my cars anyway). If I could find the right FWD donor in the junkyard and get the whole front half of the car for cheap, I'd consider completely reworking the back half of the Europa to adopt the donor cradle as-is. Obviously would require a bit of fab work and fiberglass, but I think I could avoid costly machining. And one of my Europas is enough of a basket-case that I wouldn't feel too horrible about butchering it.
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From time o time I joke about finding a run down Ferrari 308 and stuffing it's small v8 in the europa ;D
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Well I imagine it would end up as one of the most expensive Europas in existence, Though maybe not in resale value!
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Well after pricing out a rebuild of my twink, and scoring a Zetec Weber intake off eBay for 1/2 of what they sell for from the vendors, I think that is the direction I'm heading.
So the next question is what's this pile of twin cam parts worth?
I have the stock 40,000mi engine still in the '72. It hasn't been started in 20+years, but has been stored inside and isn't locked.
The engine from the '73 is partially disassembled. It had a stuck piston when the PO bought it, which he freed, and includes a new piston & rings.
Is eBay the best option to sell these? I really don't care to deal with their policies as a seller.
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Is there a weber head among those parts?
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Advertise them for sale here and on:
British Car Forum www.britishcarforum.com (http://www.britishcarforum.com)
British Speed www.britishspeed.com (http://www.britishspeed.com)
Lotus Talk www.lotustalk.com (http://www.lotustalk.com)
The Lotus Europa Yahoo Group, the Lotus-Cars Yahoo group
and it might also be worth trying the Lotus Elan group http://www.lotuselan.net/ (http://www.lotuselan.net/)
Then eBay if you must!
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Regarding a 308 Ferrari engine transplant, unless I'm mistaken, a 308 engine is an integrated sidewinder, engine & gbx married closely together. Be a tough sell in a Europa.
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Is there a weber head among those parts?
Unfortunately, no - or I may have re-thought my decision! Both are stock ~40kmi Big Vale Twinks. One is still in the '72, the other is partially disassembled(by the PO) and setting on my workbenches.
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Advertise them for sale here and on:
British Car Forum www.britishcarforum.com (http://www.britishcarforum.com)
British Speed www.britishspeed.com (http://www.britishspeed.com)
Lotus Talk www.lotustalk.com (http://www.lotustalk.com)
The Lotus Europa Yahoo Group, the Lotus-Cars Yahoo group
and it might also be worth trying the Lotus Elan group http://www.lotuselan.net/ (http://www.lotuselan.net/)
Then eBay if you must!
Thanks Roger! I hadn't considered the Elan crowd, but I suppose it'd fit just as well in one of those. :))
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I say go for the Zetec
(http://www.lotuseuropa.org/gallery/albums/Zetec/Waterpiping3.jpg)
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You know I'm going to be pestering you quite a bit Joe, right??? :))
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I quite like my Twin Cam, but the idea of running a Zetec is tempting just so I can fit a set of those sexy headers ;)
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I with you Trevor........"those sexy headers"..........I can just hear Fat Bastard in Austin Powers.
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Those "sexy headers" are a turbo manifold for the Focus, they just happen to fit in a Europa without totally reworking them.
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Well, I've "officially" started working on the Lotus today.
Ok, so it wasn't any monumental progress, but "The journey of a 1000-miles blah blah blah...." ;)
Here's the before:
(http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/petegossett/Europa/0CBE8CD1-D29F-4419-A17A-DE6C64A41E72-34175-000038E25D437D4D.jpg)
(http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/petegossett/Europa/81E8C7C0-EC38-4D90-ACEA-75C2BA0B7C04-34175-000038E2576D3F84.jpg)
And after:
(http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/petegossett/Europa/8BFB0006-53A5-47CD-B9E1-D3B915F33189-34175-000038E268A63A51.jpg)
(http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/petegossett/Europa/B4433B85-8A8A-4492-A7CA-B77B402E4D78-34175-000038E263D1CC92.jpg)
$6 and 20-minutes at the carwash, and somehow I ended up dirtier than the transmission started out as? :confused:
So what is the best way to get something this grungy show-car clean?
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I try and keep my trans clean as much as possible. But, I have noticed the aluminum on these is very tough to get clean. For instance, cleaning the bell housing seems to come out all right.........but that stinkin' trans does not want to cooperate.
Could it be French castings are to rough or the makeup of the material just won't clean.
I think the only way to do the job fully is hot tank. But, that now leads to a whole new issues. I think I stated in another post I have Kano degreaser shipped to the house, and of course their penetrating oil (the best) IMO.
I also like the citrus degreaser spray from Kragen O'Reilly, that seems to do well. And of course the power washer.
Mike
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How about a degreaser to shift the worst of the oily gunge followed by something like washing up liquid worked into a foam by a small, 1" paint brush to get into the casting ribs. That should move most of the external stuff and I think I'd follow it up with alloy wheel cleaner (acidic) and do a small section at a time. If you really want a shiny alloy finish then I'd go for a small wire brush in a drill, I can't see any other way (apart from bead blasting) to get into those crevices.
None of which are environmentally friendly I'm afraid...... but then again, neither is a thick covering of old oil and dirt when you're working on it !
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If this is a repeat post, forgive me, but I went through the same denial/acceptance process regarding some "easy" way to remove this asphalt-like crud from my 336 gbx. I am an aircraft mechanic by trade, and have access to many aggressive industrial-use-only cleaning chemicals, as well as a large Empire plastic media blasting cabinet. Nothing touched the worst of it.
What I ended up doing, and it was a nasty, labor intensive, filthy task, (and I'm used to nasty jobs, ask my long suffering wife / launderess) was to first use clay sculpting tools, such as these:
http://image.misterart.com/grouppix/528x352/000/g822.jpg
to mechanically remove the gunk.
followed by a dremel tool with these, #428, #442, & #443 brushes. I bought these in bulk on ebay, and I bet I went through scores of them.
http://www.toolbarn.com/accessories/abrasives/wire-brushes-wheels.html?manufacturer=82
I would dip the brushes in some of that gritty hand cleaner, and that helps alot, cleaning as well as preventing the crud from gumming up the brushes.
a full face plastic eye-shield is essential.
Like this:
http://tinyurl.com/9jpwlp2
as well as some expendable clothing.
This is easily the most unpleasant Europa task in my four year journey.
If you are willing to strip the case of mechanicals & seals, cal44 has the answer; hot tank it.
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Thank you Steve, that's sort of what I'm discovering - it's an arduous, labor-intensive task. But I've been hitting it for 10-15 minutes at a time, and at least it's making a dent. Though I have a hunch that like most things, the last 10% will take 90% of the effort.