Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: Steve_Lindford on Saturday,October 22, 2016, 05:07:54 AM
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I was going to set my ride height based upon information on this forum - front ride height measured at the body behind the front wheel should be 5 3/4" and the rear ride height measured at the body in front of the rear wheel should be 6 1/4". BUT I already have 7" at the rear with existing non adjustable shock absorbers. I have new adjustable AVOs on the front - so do I aim for 1/2" less at the front making it 6.5"??
I have 185/70 13 on rear and 175/70 13 on front - standard TC car.
Steve
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Hi Steve,
The problem with going off the body for ride height is that it's not an easily transferable datum because I very much doubt every car was identically mounted on it's chassis. Nothing dramatic but not as easily identifiable as the backbone chassis itself. I use the points you've mentioned but only as a comparative for my own car, I wouldn't suggest anyone else treat my numbers as gospel truth.
To illustrate the point, with my car unladen I have 15cm underneath the front chassis cross member, 15.5cm just before the start of the engine bay fork and 22cm underneath the rear hoop where the gearbox mounts. So the chassis has a very slight forward tilt, somewhere around 0.5cm.
If I go off the bodywork alone the floorpan just behind the front wheelarch is around 12.5cm and 15cm just in front of the rear wheelarch (which almost corresponds to the 15.5cm point). So it would look like a 2.5cm tilt on the car, which it clearly hasn't got.
As you can't do anything at the rear I'd suggest you try for an imaginary horizontal line between the outboard (brass trunnion) bolt head and the inboard chassis mount bolt. Due to the bend on the lower wishbone this isn't as clear as on conventional wishbones but it's a reasonable start. I used a DIY laser level that casts a horizontal line, the sort you use to get wall tiles nice and level but there's no reason you can't use a normal spirit level/ruler.
Then I'd see how the car drives and raise/lower to get the sort of balance you like.
Brian
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Thanks Brian - sounds like every car is probably set up differently - so the settings aren't too critical. Your figures give me something to go on. Presumably there is no point using a laser unless the garage floor is level. This car will behave so differently from my normal (Peugeot 206sw) car that it won't be easy for me to assess how it handles - but hopefully it would be obvious if it was very wrong. Do you try and aim for the same number of threads showing on each side below the shock absorber adjuster??
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Do you try and aim for the same number of threads showing on each side below the shock absorber adjuster??
Technically you should go on corner weights which would probably mean the platform height will be slightly different on either side, but I'll come clean and admit that I did pretty much what you've suggested. I used simple calipers to measure the thread showing and both sides look similar but unfortunately I don't have measurements to hand.
I initially set the front end about an inch lower than it now is. The car looked great but on the first run out it felt twitchy on where the road wasn't so smooth and I wasn't convinced that was just down to higher spring rates. I can't recall the numbers but remember there was a greater slope forward on the chassis spine. By gradually lowering the rear and raising the front to the current measurements I convinced myself it was an improvement.
I guess what I'm trying to say is "don't be afraid to experiment" ;)
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Not many smooth roads in Surrey or Hampshire - but it gets better into Sussex - so it is a nice drive to Goodwood! Also lots of speed bumps round here - some 50 yds from where the car is kept - and I'm not sure I can get over those without a scrape. I will apply some of your logic and see how it goes...
Steve
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I put a similar slope on the chassis as you have - and as the back is fixed the front was a turn out dimension. I think mine might be approx an inch higher than yours - which sounds a lot. The lowest part is the bottom of the shock absorbers - which is just 3.5 inches. I could grind off the bottom half inch of spare thread - before the road does.
This photo was taken after my FIRST drive in the car - just 30 feet in reverse! - and I had to get my glasses to see the diagram on the gear knob to find it. I have now done 0.8 miles in a friend's garden. MOT next week.
Steve
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I would say just by looking at that picture, your ride heights don't seem out of whack. Good luck with your MOT!
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and I had to get my glasses to see the diagram on the gear knob to find it.
:) you're lucky, I used to be stirring the stick for ages before I found reverse, and then, to prove it was still there, sometimes I'd find it going down from 3rd......
Quite honestly, it looks about right from the photo. I wouldn't get too hung up on measurements until you know what it drives like. (going forwards that is ;) )
I think I posted this somewhere before but can't find the thread, so here's another shot. It's from contemporary road tests and compares the dimensions of the S2 & TC when new and they have bumper height measurements which might confirm where you are.
Brian
ps - best of luck on the MoT, let's know how you get on. Adjust the handbrake the night before..... it's traditional.
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Thanks for all the help - I will probably need more. Will let you know about the MOT...
Steve
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MOT - fail - but not too terrible at all! Passenger door won't open from outside - I knew about this but didn't think it was urgent. And front wheels on the wrong way round so the tyre faces the wrong way. Handbrake OK!
Also they advise:
The lower nyloc nut on shock absorber - thro wishbone - the nylon part doesn't touch the thread - either because the bolt is too short or the nut too long. The next size down for the nut is 8mm high - so I will see if they are happy with that.
Rear brakes out of adjustment - different readings for both sides.
Handbrake lever not releasing easily.
Also - not anything to do with MOT test - big gearbox leak at the clutch end. This was not apparent to me when I filled with oil and the car was static. I also have small leak at both driveshafts which I knew about...
Steve
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All in all, not a bad report. Good news about the handbrake.
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Boy, they're sure thorough over there! I'm glad it went relatively well for you. Those problems should be pretty simple to resolve. The gearbox leak sounds like a bit more work, though.
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That's what I call a good MoT test Steve, anyone who picks up on a nyloc not having full thread is a good guy in my books. I didn't even know that the passenger door opening was part of the MoT these days, I can see the logic but it's still surprising.
Some things like rear brake imbalance is very hard for us DIY guys to pick up on until it gets serious enough to pull the car during braking. I had a similar thing on the Elan last year, the car didn't move during the traditional "hands off" braking test but my local garage picked up a small imbalance and warned me about it.
All in all I'd class that as a good result. So when's the re-test and that magic bit of paper ? :)
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Hello Steve,
that's a very good MOT indeed, worth the fee alone as the tester spotted the nyloc nut thread not being engaged on the bolt.
Best of luck with the work and the re-test :)
Mark
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The irony is to get the brakes to work properly, you have to use them hard to bed them in equally. To do that, you have to drive and use the brakes a lot, and you cannot drive without the MOT test certificate.
Time for a long track day to bed the brakes in, I think.
Alex in Norfolk.
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Im happy with their approach to the test - and I expect some sort of problems with a car which I purchased without x-ray eyes! Bit of a worry about the oil leak - as I suspect it has been driven with low oil in the gearbox for a while. I should have measured how much came out when I drained it - but never thought - perhaps it is better not to know...
Actually I knew about the nyloc nut not reaching - and I thought I would keep an eye on it - paint a stripe across to see if it had moved. As I stated - the next size down is 8mm high which will have less threads on it but the nyloc part will reach. The suggestion they made to me is get a longer bolt - but it will be easier if I use a smaller nut.
Will try and get them to test it again on Friday. Does anyone know if the oil seal at the clutch end can be replaced without splitting the gearbox??
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In that application, it doesn't matter if you get a longer bolt or a shorter nut just so long as the locking part is fully engaged. The bolt is in shear (double shear at that). Aircraft nuts are available in full height and half height - the half height for shear applications.
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Im happy with their approach to the test - and I expect some sort of problems with a car which I purchased without x-ray eyes! Bit of a worry about the oil leak - as I suspect it has been driven with low oil in the gearbox for a while. I should have measured how much came out when I drained it - but never thought - perhaps it is better not to know...
Actually I knew about the nyloc nut not reaching - and I thought I would keep an eye on it - paint a stripe across to see if it had moved. As I stated - the next size down is 8mm high which will have less threads on it but the nyloc part will reach. The suggestion they made to me is get a longer bolt - but it will be easier if I use a smaller nut.
Will try and get them to test it again on Friday. Does anyone know if the oil seal at the clutch end can be replaced without splitting the gearbox??
Drill the nut and stud and put a split pin through it. (Or lockwire)
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Does anyone know if the oil seal at the clutch end can be replaced without splitting the gearbox??
I don't know that one Steve, but I'm sure someone on here has had the gearbox apart at some time. My memory is hazy but for some reason I thought the primary input shaft (presumable where the leak is ?) was higher than the filler plug. Overfilling is clutching at straws I know, but it's my way of going about problems I don't like..... :)
Best of luck for tomorrow, I'm sure you're going to be getting on to the DVLA's website on Friday afternoon to get your free road tax !
Brian
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Drill the nut and stud and put a split pin through it. (Or lockwire)
Im not planning to do this - as there is an easier solution BUT - if I was - wouldn't I have to drill the bolt when removed from the car - then I wouldn't know where to drill the nut until it was screwed onto the bolt on the car.
The other reason for going for a shorter nut is I don't have to suffer muscle pain in my neck and shoulder when I remove and replace the tension on the shock spring. I found it a tiresome job winding the spring up.
The garage said the reason the leak has become apparent is that the oil gets sloshed around as the gears rotate - and warm. Would it be sensible to do the clutch and bearing when I get the gearbox off??
Look forward to getting on the DVLA website - and increasing the number of Europas on the road!
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Steve,
if you had a castellated nut that is the best way...
tighten the nut to the required torque figure, then, using a sharp carbide drill, mark the bolt at the most accessible slot in the nut (drill slightly away from the bottom of the slot)
remove the nut/bolt and reassemble in a vice, line up the mark on the bolt with the relevant slot, drill through the bolt and use the opposite slot as a guide (also keeping the hole level)
then reassemble, although you may find that you don't always get the slots to line up again despite going to the same torque setting (try other nuts to see if one lines up)
Mark
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With the car off the ground, there is no "spring tension" on the suspension. Do it properly and fit a longer bolt. It is literally a two minute job. Please do support the car on jack stands. Lost a customer who didn't. It wasn't pretty.
You have to remove the bell housing to change the input shaft seal. You do not need to "split the cases".
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I would have put money on the fact that the suspension would push down through the wishbones - and it would be impossible to get another bolt through without a lot of messing about - but that is not to say that I wouldn't want to do the job properly. Annoyingly it seems I will have to sort out the gearbox before I can enjoy the car - but compared to the amount of work some people commit to on this forum - I have got off lightly...
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I would have put money on the fact that the suspension would push down through the wishbones - and it would be impossible to get another bolt through without a lot of messing about -
No, as John says, it doesn't work like that. The spring is contained within the confines of the damper, all that will happen is that if you jack it up and let the suspension go to full droop it is the length of the damper piston rod that determines how much extension the spring gets. Your adjustable platforms won't make any difference and you won't have to re-adjust them afterwards. Slipping the bolt out and replacing won't be any trouble at all, in fact it would be far quicker than trying to drill and use wire to hold it in place.
Personally I'd replace the bolt because it's very simple to do. However.... with an MoT re-test looming I could be persuaded to put a thinner nut on to get past that obstacle.
Best of luck with the re-test.
Brian
ps - thoughts on the oil leaks - is there a breather on your gearbox & is it clear ?
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MOT passed - so I am road legal now that I have registered the car. Unfortunately it doesn't change the statistics on this website:
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=lotus+europa&commit=Search
as it records SORN (off the road) vehicles - which mine was before. - So there is no way of actually knowing how many are on the road - rather than in a garage for years.
The MOT was not conditional on me replacing the nut. In fact the original nut was a short one - and that is probably how it was designed. As for the gearbox - the only breather I am aware of is that little metal bucket shaped thing at the rear - approx 10mm in diameter...
Steve
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OOps I was wrong about that website - if you click on an individual car type it gives further information...
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So 116 taxed + 91 off road in the UK.
How come I never see one being driven or parked?
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I guess that site is only for Brit Loti?
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So 116 taxed + 91 off road in the UK.
OR is it 116+19+48+51=234 total on the road
116 (Europa) + 19 (Europa S2) + 48 (Europa Special) + 51 (Europa Twin Cam) = 234 (All old Europas regardless of how the variant is listed on the title)?
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So 116 taxed + 91 off road in the UK.
OR is it 116+19+48+51=234 total on the road
116 (Europa) + 19 (Europa S2) + 48 (Europa Special) + 51 (Europa Twin Cam) = 234 (All old Europas regardless of how the variant is listed on the title)?
I've assumed that's the way it works. If you drill down into the models as Steve says it also gives the number of cars declared SORN - Statutory Off Road Notice for you guys over the pond. If you had a car off road before 1998 when SORN was introduced and it's neither been sold or registered since then it won't be in those numbers. Pure track/race cars won't feature in the list either. So there's potentially a few more cars hidden away in barns.
The SORN category swells it a bit, 90(Europa) + 16 (S2) + 30 (TCS) + 40 (TC) = 176, making just over 400 cars known about inside the UK.
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MOT passed - so I am road legal now that I have registered the car. Unfortunately it doesn't change the statistics on this website:
As for the gearbox - the only breather I am aware of is that little metal bucket shaped thing at the rear - approx 10mm in diameter...
Steve
:beerchug:
Great news Steve, and :ttiwwp:
Yep, that's the breather I've seen. More straw-clutching, it's just part of my "I really,really don't want to pull this apart unless I have to" mentality.....
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Hang on - what is the second horizontal line - is it the modern variant?? It obviously is not S1 Europa... - I thought it was the totals - it is in a darker typeface - but the maths doesn't work.
When I get a moment I will put a photo of my gearbox/chassis. The chassis was modified to take the 352 after having a 336. There doesn't seem like there is much room to pull it back to free it from the engine...
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To get the gearbox clear of the engine, the engine tips up, the gearbox drops below the metal mounting hoop, and the gearbox can go backwards.
When doing this, the water pump hose comes off the long metal tube to the front radiator.
Alex in Norfolk.
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Yes, going on the dates I think that's the latest incarnation of the Europa.
When I did the clutch on mine (352 box) I took out the rear luggage tray and positioned the engine hoist to take the weight while undoing everything, I think I took off the rear mounting plate to give a bit more room. I also undid the engine mounts & supported it on the sump with a trolley jack to shift it forwards a bit, as you say it's a tight clearance job. The gearbox isn't that heavy so I think you could do it without a hoist but I've never been that strong so mechanical advantage is always my first shot.
I've no idea what the manual suggests but mine came out above the hoop and over the back. It was quite tough splitting the clutch housing from the engine but once that was done it wasn't so bad. Going back was much faster.
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Only 400 Europa variants left in the U.K.? I wonder how many are left in the US?
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I have no idea how many Europas are in the states, but Lotus Europa Central tallies 2012 in its registry.
http://www.lotus-europa.com/registry.html#bottomtbl
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I interpret the UK numbers site as this-
on road 19 off road 16 - S2
on road 51 off road 40 - TWIN CAM
on road 48 off road 30 - SPECIAL
Total 118 registered for road in UK.
The second horizontal column makes no sense - but comes close to the totals. No mentioned of S1's - no idea why.
Here is pic of my gearbox - and non standard chassis. With the equipment I have - I believe it will be easier to lift out over the top. I was hoping to do this without undoing engine bolts - If the engine tips up - is it likely to give me enough room to pull back?? Would I have to remove both water hoses?? Seems like I will have to remove the top bolt-on chassis supports if I attempt it this way...
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The pics...
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It's a while ago now since I did mine but I do recall that I left the cooling system in place and full. I also took off the exhaust at the first downpipe joint, the gear linkage, clutch cable, etc. I had tall axle stands under the chassis side rails between the damper mounts and rear hoop.
I also undid the engine mounts, in fact I took them completely out and replaced with new ones,they get a tough life in a Europa. As I mentioned before I had the sump on a trolley jack which lets you push it up against the bulkhead.
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That looks to be a 352 4 spd hooked up correctly to the correct chassis.
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At least with the gearbox out - it will be possible to access a few other things - I will check engine mounts! The chassis has definitely been modified to take this gearbox - so it sounds as if it has been done properly...