Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: rjbaren on Monday,July 20, 2020, 06:07:57 AM
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I am mostly polishing the car but I have taken a few spins so far and of course, a question comes up. The shop I had the car in said the electrical systems all seem to work. I was out driving near dusk and I turned on the headlights and dash lights and after a couple of minutes driving I smelled what I thought was going to be an electrical fire. I immediately turned off the headlights and dash lights and made for home. Everything was OK but I have yet to turn the lights on again. I have driven the car again in the daylight and all is still well.
I am just being chicken? Could it be years of dust burning behind the dash? What would be a safe way to check this out if I do have an electrical problem without burning up the car? I do have a fire extinguisher but I hope it doesn't come to that.
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If you've already smelled it, I suspect some wiring damage has occurred.
Burning electrics has a distinctive smell.
If it were me, I'd disconnect the battery and check the wiring loom.
Start tracing the Blue wires back from the lights to under the dash. Melted/fused/blackened insulation should be visible.
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A wiring diagram (they are available from the main page of this forum) can help you trace which wires you need to concentrate on (interior lights, head lights, turn signal and markers). Unfortunately, the diagram will not necessarily tell you where in the car the wire is but it does tell you what it's connected to and that should be enough to get you started. You should also check your fuses to make sure they are the proper amperage 35A British. You might consider replacing them with actual known 35A British fuses. A 35A British fuse is not the same as an American 35A fuse. You may or may not be able to source them locally but they are readily available from the usual suspects and Brit car places like Moss Motors, etc.
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Many of us have added relays for this reason as well. It doesn't cost much and takes the high power load from the switches.
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The headlights take their power from the ammeter, it then goes to the fusebox, then to the side light/ main headlight switch, then to the dip/main beam switch, then through two wires (main and dip) to the two headlights.
When the light switch is either in the side light or headlight position, all the red wires for the repeater red/amber lights, rear lights, number plate lights etc are live.
I think from memory they are blue/red and blue/white wires from the dip/main switch to the headlights.
The question is where did the smell come from, behind the dash is the favourite place in my opinion.
To get to those wires behind the dash from the ammeter to the fuse-box, fusebox to light switch, and light switch to dip switch is a bitch. To take out the dashboard is a big job, and you would regret doing it.
Maybe run a fused wire from the battery to the dip switch to narrow down the source. That would by-pass the wiring behind the dash.
I have replaced 3 wiring looms, so I understand all the routing of all the wires.
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Check connections along the route laid out by 4129R. Smell the switches. You should be able to isolate the problem fairly quickly. It is a good idea to fit a relay to reduce the load on the headlight switch and hi/lo switch BUT find and fix the problem first!
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The car hasn't been on the road for nearly 30 years. The headlights were tested at the shop, one headlight was replaced and I was told everything electrical works. When I turned the lights on everything worked but, then I smelled something burning. There was no smoke and I turned the lights off quickly. When I smelled the burning, it was behind the dash. I have found no burned wires anywhere yet, but, I have not been behind the dash other than putting a screw in to hold the fuse box in place.
Is there a post on how and where to install the relay for the headlights? Maybe the headlight switch is ready for a meltdown.
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What wattage are the headlights/sealed beam units?
They were 55w, so at 110w in total, they would have been drawing just over 9 amps. Add 6 x 5w for other bulbs, and the total power going through the wiring up to the headlight switch is around 12 amps.
Not exactly wire melting current, unless the wires are corroded at a connection to the lights, to earth, or to more likely the switch. After the dip/main switch, the power splits to left and right front lights, so the 12 amps is going through the main headlight switch, and 9 amps going through the dip/main switch.
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If the headlight switch's contacts are corroded, then it can heat up for sure. Just turn the headlights back on and use a piece of hose to "smell" next to the switch.
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If the headlight switch's contacts are corroded, then it can heat up for sure. Just turn the headlights back on and use a piece of hose to "smell" next to the switch.
Preferably polythene, and not rubber, which could disguise the smell.
You could get quite close through the radio rectangular hole.
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That's an ingenious way to investigate that but the headlight switch on a TCS is not that far from the edge of the dashboard. I think it would make more sense to take the console cover off and take the switch out. You can inspect the connectors for corrosion or discoloration or other evidence of heat. If they are in good shape and you are still concerned about the switch, you can go further and connect wires between the wires in the loom and the switch so you can get it away from the dash and get a good look at the switch while you operate it.
If you choose to do this, you will have to take the knob off the switch first which means pushing the inset "button" in the knob. Check the manual for details about how to do this.
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If you choose to do this, you will have to take the knob off the switch first which means pushing the inset "button" in the knob. Check the manual for details about how to do this.
Those push in knob buttons notoriously rust in place.
I have several broken knobs from various switches and cables where that has happened.
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Right! It's best to be careful. If the knob doesn't come off easily, then it might be best to do the hose trick. I do think taking the console cover off is a good idea because you get better access to most things.
Admittedly, my method is somewhat "invasive" and drawn from my experiences (I've had my headlight switch out several times over the years) so it might not be for everyone, especially someone who is not confident in his abilities (or in my case, have an inflated view of my abilities!)
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Hi, I removed the headlight switch from the dash and let it hang under the dash. The wires look ok and the contacts look ok too. I disconnected the negative battery terminal and then put it back on loosely so I could remove it quickly if I had to. When I turned on the lights and did a quick walkaround all the lights were on, even the license plate lamps in the rear. I held the switch and wires in my hand for nearly 10 minutes. The ignition was off but the lights were on but not the panel lights. At about the 8 minute mark the Brown with blue tracer wire was getting warm. I decided to turn the lights off and disconnect the battery for good measure. When I walked by the car again with the windows down I could smell the electrical burning smell from inside the car. I didn't smell it while I was holding the switch and it is definitely coming from around the dash.
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Instrument lights: I assume you turned the rheostat is turned all the way on. The incandescent dash bulbs are not very bright in the first place. You should check that the red wire from the fuse box to the rheostat is good as are the red/white wire from the rheostat to the instrument lights.There is also a red/green wire from the headlamp switch to the fuse for the instrument lights. It's probably either the first or last fuse in the block.
The brown/blue wire comes from the ammeter. Does your ammeter work correctly. What is the condition of the connectors at the back of your ammeter? My ammeter got very corroded and caused all sorts of odd problems. I eventually replaced it with a voltmeter.
I'm assuming that since you had the switch out that the brown/blue wire was the only one that got warm.
The ignition is not required for running the headlights (bad idea in my opinion).
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Yup, check the connections at the ammeter.
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Yes, I had the ignition switch out and the Brown Blue wire was the only wire that was warm. I did not check if the panel lamps were on, I turned the rheostat all the way to the left which I believe is off. I will check the connections at the back of the Ammeter tomorrow.
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The wiring loom on my S2 was largely unmolested and in pretty reasonable shape.
During my first restoration, I replaced the PO's cheap/off brand ammeter with a new Smiths unit.
The new Smiths gauge had a plastic bowl/housing instead of a metal one.
Years later, I discovered the plastic bowl had melted and partially collapsed around it's innards.
I'd never had an electrical 'event' to which I could attribute this.
Consequently, I'm a little scared of ammeters.
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Is there a post on how and where to install the relay for the headlights? Maybe the headlight switch is ready for a meltdown.
My relays are located up front on the right hand bonnet drip channel.
They are sufficiently out of the way, out of the weather and suitably close to the loom so as to be able to break out the high and low beam wires to trigger the relays.
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I have removed the ammeter this evening and found the connections were a little dirty but nothing major. I removed each wire in turn and cleaned the contacts with Deoxit and replaced the gauge. I haven't tried the lights yet but I don't think this is my problem. It was too clean. I do have an appointment to run the car back to the shop for the lights, maybe I need to leave this one to the pros.
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I took my car in to the shop and they checked everything over. Connections at the lights, switches and a large connector behind the dash and cleaned the contacts, put a meter on and after having the lights on for over an hour they said no burning, no smell. When the took the wires apart they saw no evidence of burning to the wires or the switches/connectors.
So, I brought her home.
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I hope that's the end of that story! Good luck!
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Thank you. Me too!
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Well, the story continues and I have questions. I was installing a stereo and I noticed one of the light green wires from the voltage stabilizer was melted to the back of the panel light switch. It's an old switch and I believe this is the burning smell I was smelling when turning on the headlights. Since the car has been at the shop I noticed the lights on the gages are not working. I talked with Ray at rdenterprises and the panel switch is not available, so I thought I would bypass the switch and connect the single red wire to the two red white wires going the gauge lights, and they would come on with the headlights, but no longer be dimmable. Since then all that happens is I blow fuses. The headlights stay on the but panel lights don't light and the fuse blows. Even if I unplug the two red white wires the fuse still blows. I am stumped. Any help?
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Steady shorts are easy to find compared to intermittent ones.
Get a headlight bulb and hook up two wires with alligator clips on the ground terminal and one of the bulb powers. Hook this across the fuse terminals. Disconnect wires at the fuse until the headlight bulb stops glowing really bright. See what's not working and trace that circuit to the problem.
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First, are you using British fuses? British and US (Buss) are not the same. See here: https://www.mgtoronto.com/pdf/Tech/fuses.pdf
You're going to have to trace the gauge light wires (including the light for heater and choke), and all your side marker lights looking for shorts. Since your fuse blows after you disconnect your panel lights (assuming you're using the proper fuses), it seems likely that your problem is with your side markers (see: http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/electrical/tcsearly.gif).
It won't help this situation, but after you get this figured out, I'd recommend that you convert incandescent gauge lights to LEDs.
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I didn't know there was a difference...thanks for the link BDA!
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So where do I get the British fuses. I mostly use rdenterprises.
There fuse that was originally in the fuse box read "17amps continuous LUCAS 35A". I have blown another six 2 & 3 amp fuses in testing. I have four more 25 amp fuses but I feel that is too high to use. I plan on getting bunch of 5, 10 and 15 amp fuses for testing.
Last night my last test I proved myself wrong. I put in a 3 amp fuse and turned on the headlights and the fuse did not blow. The side maker lights were on too. I used my test light and both sides of the fuse were live, which I expected. Then I put my test light to the lose red wire that feeds the panel light switch, and it also lit my test light. Next, I plugged one of the red/white wires to the live red wire and the fuse blew. Side marker lights went out, which I expected. I ran out of low amp fuses so I stopped.
Today after I get some more low amp fuses, I am going to do the same test with only the other red white wire and see what happens.
I have been looking at the same wiring diagram and I believe one of the red/white wires feeds the instrument lamps and the facia which may be a lose light behind the dash. The other red/white wire feeds the tunnel lamp. I am not sure where that light is, maybe by the choke and heater control cables?
This is my first path before I do the headlight test. Maybe I can isolate between the two red/white wires and hopefully the side markers are the culprits.
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I found two more spare Lucas fuses in the fuse box cover. so now I connected the other red/white wire to the red wire that supplied the panel light dimmer. The panels lights came on. The side marker lights came on. The tail lights and the front turn signal lamps were on too. There is a lose bulb behind the dash I assume is the facia and it came on. I am not sure where it is supposed to plug in, but it lit as well.
Next I pulled the headlight switch and the headlights came on. The I tried the high beams and they came on too and the inside blue light on the dash came on. I depressed the brake pedal and the brakes lights work as well.
Next I tried the turn signals and they do not work. They used to work.
I'm getting cloer.
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If you use a headlight bulb instead of the fuse the brightness of the bulb tells when there's a short while you wiggle and poke about. Makes finding shorts quick and easy.
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Signal and brake lights are on the green wire fuse. Park, tail, marker, dash, etc are on the red wire fuse. Headlights are not fused. The loose bulb under the dash is supposed to illuminate the ignition switch so you can find it in the dark.
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Ok thanks I will try to plug in the ignition light bulb. Today I will get a headlamp. I would assume the 6014, same as the front headlight, would be a good choice?
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So where do I get the British fuses. I mostly use rdenterprises.
rd should have them. Any Brit car place like Moss Motors, Victoria British, etc. would have them too.
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Any 45w to 60w headlight or headlight bulb will do. You want something that has low enough impedance that normal loads will just cause it to lightly glow but will prevent a complete short to ground.
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I made a connector wire between the red wire that fed the panel dimmer and the red/white wire going to the instrument lights and the panel lights came on with the headlights. The side marker lights all came on including the tail lights and license plate lamps and front turn signal lamps. The brake lights work and the reverse lights too.
So I have isolated the problem to be the tunnel lamp which must be somewhere under the console.
The store I went to only had Halogen headlights so I bought an H6024. Can I use this for testing? Can I use these bulbs for headlights or do they draw too much current?
I also noticed my turn signals have stopped working so I will a new thread on that.
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Yes, they will work for testing. The stock bulb for the Europa is 45w-ish. Most people are running at least halogen lights now. If you go this way, it would be not a bad idea to fit a relays to reduce the load on 50 year old switches and connectors. Another option is to fit LED/LCD 7" headlights. They typically draw only 35w as well as providing much better light than stock and most halogens.
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Federal car? Must be if it has markers. Clean the connections at the fuse box green wire fuse. Then, using the wiring diagram check that the power is going through the 4-way flasher switch to the signal flasher.
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I looked at some LED and Halogen headlights. There are so many. Can anyone recommend one they have fitted without problems? I may even consider running them in daylight to make sure I am seen.
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I've always run my cars with dipped headlights since owning my first mini in the '80s. I feel it also makes you look closer and people less likely to pull out of a side road in fron of you/across your path.
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All my lights come on with oil pressure.
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All my lights come on with oil pressure.
Do they dip when it's low and go full beam if it's too high? :D
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I found a 7" round LED headlight by Trux Accessories from Northern Tool, The price is $159.00 each. This seems rather expensive. Has anyone else found a less expensive alternative or recommendation? So far the only reasonably priced normal looking headlights have been Halogen, except for these at Northern Tool.
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There are LOTS of them on Amazon!
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From what I've read, it seems that good LED headlights are still expensive, and if you want something more affordable that works well then you may be better off with H4 halogen headlights. This article has some more detail
https://jalopnik.com/why-most-led-headlight-upgrades-dont-really-work-an-ex-1843070472
If you’re replacing the bulb and housing, I asked Stern, wouldn’t you be able to get a good LED retrofit with today’s tech? His response:
“The concept is correct—this is the right way to do it, an LED headlamp engineered, designed, constructed, tested, and certified/approved as such. There are excellent ones on the market, and of course also a great deal of junk. The king daddy of them all [at the time of publication] is the JW Speaker 8700 Evolution-J3, which brings almost Star Trek-level technology to the old seven-inch round headlamp format.”
Stern also shouted out the “JWS 8700 Evo 2” as a good option one step down, and “another step or two down from there, [is] the Peterson Manufacturing 701C (in Peterson or Sylvania Zevo packaging — same lamp) and the Truck-Lite units are reasonably good with or without heated lens.”
The cheapest of the LED units mentioned, the Peterson 701c, sell for about $200 each.
And, if you don't mind spending a bit more then the JW Speaker 8700 EVO 2 Classic wouldn't look totally out of place
https://www.jwspeaker.com/products/model-8700-evo2-classic-led-light/
And, here's one place you can get a pair of European spec Hella 7" round units for $80. Apparently the European spec headlights are better than American spec. Go figure.
https://www.busdepot.com/0301600118
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Those busdepot lights appear to be a 7" lenses which take H4 hologen bulbs that they point you to. There are LED H4 bulbs available (possibly mentioned in the other links you posted, I haven't had a chance to check them out). From what I have read, the idea is to replicate the geometry of the H4 bulb for use with halogen lenses. I'm not sure about how well they project. One of the problems with LED bulbs in other lenses is they may not have good cut off and thus blin oncoming drivers.
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The main point made in the Jalopnik article I linked to is that LED bulb upgrades to lamp housings that were designed for Halogen bulbs just don't work well yet. They may appear brighter, but the beam pattern is wrong resulting in worse vision for the driver or glare for oncoming traffic, or both. The opinions expressed in that article are those of Daniel Stern, a self-professed automotive lighting expert (I'm not casting aspersions on his expertise, I just have no way to judge it). Daniel Stern's website is here
https://www.danielsternlighting.com/
He sells/recommends E-Code (European spec) Cibie H4 7" round halogen headlights. The Bus Depot website claims that the Hella version is comparable to and cheaper than Cibie. Both Daniel Stern and Bus Depot recommend getting the E-Code units. Bus Depot also does not recommend using H4 LED bulbs with the designed-for-Halogen headlight.
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I read through some of the articles from that guy, Daniel, and he seems to know what he's talking about. And, like you, I don't know a whole lot about it, so I choose to believe him.
I think I saw some guy on YouTube say to get LED bulbs that mimic the H4 bulb for retrofitting a halogen lamp. He's probably right that that's the best you can do but as Daniel points out, it's not good enough.
I had an email conversation with a guy on the yahoo group about LEDs. IIRC, he chose an H4 replacement. He said it was much brighter and probably due to how low his car was, he didn't get a lot of people flashing back at him so he was pretty happy. So I would suggest that the height of the lamp is an important variable and that maybe a little leeway on a worse beam pattern as long as it doesn't blind oncoming traffic (although I've been blinded by xenon or LED bulbs found stock on big pickup trucks).
That's a good link. I'll have to go back and check out your previous links.
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Further on LED headlights, here is an article from the September 2020 issue of Classic Motorsports:
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-FDcJfw5
https://jbcollier.smugmug.com/Lotus-Europa/i-zFcXQnJ
The beam pattern looks pretty tight with minimal scatter.
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Not for the purists ...
High output led headlights with side lights and indicator lights.
Low power - so you don’t need a relay
Low cost £25 for a pair for eBay (Land Rover defender halo led)
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Sidelights
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Indicators
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Beam
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Now I'm torn, between halogens and LEDs. Have you compared these with halogens for lighting the road at night?
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These are great for lighting the road - there are some inferior ones - look at he lens layout.
The prices vary hugely on eBay - from 23 to 70 plus.
I need new lights to convert from lhd and I’ve now bought a pair for the Jensen Healey
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Have you a link to the Ebay seller you got yours from?
Thanks
Richard
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Does the turn signal part work with the headlights on?
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Does the turn signal part work with the headlights on?
Yes
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An interesting website on lighting is "Danielsternlighting.com" He covers LED and Halogen bulbs. Regarding turn signals/side markers, he has two methods for making the front side markers flash with the turn signals. He talks about headlight relays and many other lighting things. No affiliation other than a satisfied customer.
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"I'd recommend that you convert incandescent gauge lights to LEDs."
Source?
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Here's a thread on converting pretty much all the lights on a TCS except the headlights to LEDs: http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=891.msg6614#msg6614