Lotus Europa Community
Lotus Europa Forums => Garage => Topic started by: 4129R on Thursday,September 28, 2023, 04:45:28 AM
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I am getting a 1558 Lotus Twin Cam started, and I have got no oil pressure.
I have changed the pump and filter, packed the pump with Vaseline, filled the oil filter, taken the spark plugs out to get fast turn over, and still no pressure.
Oil comes out of the oil pressure union hole on the block when I undo the 5/8" union connector at a dribble, but nothing registers on the gauge, and nothing comes up the clear gauge plastic pipe when the pipe is connected to the union and the gauge is disconnected.
I have run out of ideas. What could cause the primed pump to go round normally, and produce no pressure at the hole in the block to the oil pressure pipe connection?
There was 7 pints of new oil in the sump.
Any ideas as to what is wrong?
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At this point I would drop the sump and check the pick up carefully. Perhaps the screen is plugged or the "press-fit" into the block is loose allow the pump to suck air.
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At this point I would drop the sump and check the pick up carefully. Perhaps the screen is plugged or the "press-fit" into the block is loose allow the pump to suck air.
Having just driven into town to buy a gallon of new oil, I have come to the conclusion that there must be a fault with the pick up pipe, either a blockage, or something else that is not right.
Next I drop the sump expecting to find the cause.
Thank you for your help, to be honest there is not really much else left that it can be.
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Sump removed, all oilways perfectly clear. I took the pump off to check.
I checked the pick up pipe to the oil pump by pushing a small plastic pipe up all the way (windscreen washer pipe), and the oilway from the pump through the block to the oil pressure pipe mounting which is 2 oilway holes at right angles to each other. I could see a wire I pushed in from the mounting flange from the oil pump oilway.
The oil strainer was perfectly clear too.
So no apparent fault with the pump, and everything up to the oil pressure pipe take off on the block. It is a mystery.
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Is the oil being pumped around the engine, for example is the cam cover full of oil ? I remember not fitting the cap on the cam cover once and oil certainly comes out then !
If it's not going round, is the relief valve in the pump stuck open somehow ? (no idea how that would happen, straw clutching time)
Brian
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Is the oil being pumped around the engine, for example is the cam cover full of oil ? I remember not fitting the cap on the cam cover once and oil certainly comes out then !
If it's not going round, is the relief valve in the pump stuck open somehow ? (no idea how that would happen, straw clutching time)
Brian
The exhaust cam side was very oily, but it would be as you fill that side. The inlet cam side was only oily at the chain end, as the chain drags up lots of oil. I had the cover off with the engine turning.
I have tried two oil pumps, both stuffed full of Vaseline, with the filter filled to the brim.
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I must admit I am clueless on this one. If you've had 2 oil pumps then I think I'd rule out the relief valve. From memory the oil pressure take off is next in line after the pump as it splits to the rest of the circuit, so if that is clear and only a dribble coming out, I've got to go back to the pump. I've never had to use vaseline, all I've done is to take off the cover, pour in some oil around the lobes and then fit it.
As we're contemplating which straw to pull at next, are we 100% certain that the jackshaft is actually turning and the pump rotating ? given how lost I am I'd be tempted to remove the oil pump cover & turn the engine by hand to see if it's actually moving !
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May or may not be relevant thread from the Elan world. Says he found the problem in the 5th post. https://lotuselan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1804
Curious that in his case it came on suddenly, but might be worth measuring for clearance in the bottom of the sump?
Ron
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As we're contemplating which straw to pull at next, are we 100% certain that the jackshaft is actually turning and the pump rotating ? given how lost I am I'd be tempted to remove the oil pump cover & turn the engine by hand to see if it's actually moving !
I thought that, but as the jackshaft drives the distributor, and the engine fires up, I concluded that the pump must be rotating.
Tomorrow, I pretend all is in order, bolt it all back together, fill it with 7 pints of new oil, cross my fingers, and all will work perfectly.
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May or may not be relevant thread from the Elan world. Says he found the problem in the 5th post. https://lotuselan.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1804
Curious that in his case it came on suddenly, but might be worth measuring for clearance in the bottom of the sump?
Ron
You may have something there. The gauze was rather gooey at the bottom, and if it was pressing against the suction pipe, it would have prevented the pump sucking properly.
Tomorrow, I will tap the pipe to make sure it is seated fully to give the right clearance, gauze to pick up pipe. I have thoroughly cleaned the gauze.
Thank you for that. Much appreciated.
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Measure how low the oil intake sits and compare that to the depth of the sump. No specific spec comes to mind but anything under a 1/2" would have me concerned.
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Measure how low the oil intake sits and compare that to the depth of the sump. No specific spec comes to mind but anything under a 1/2" would have me concerned.
I thought exactly that. It was first on my list to do this morning.
It may be that the tube is not fully up into the block, and the gauze is touching the end of the pick up pipe preventing a free flow of oil being sucked up the tube into the pump.
The oil had been sitting in the block for about 3 years, and was a bit creamy. The gauze was creamy along the bottom about 5mm, and it would not need much to stop the flow of the oil into the pump as the suck is not very powerful compared to the pressurised output if all is flowing freely.
Thanks again for your help, it is good to share problems to think logically through to the answers. They are very simple engines so whatever is wrong cannot be that difficult to find and cure.
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Length of pick up pipe, 6 1/4" to 6 3/8". Pipe is slightly slanted.
Depth of sump 6 3/4". Therefore 1/2" gap.
I tried tapping the tube further into the block, but it was all the way in.
But, after draining the sump, there was a creamy slurry in the bottom, which would not drain out of the sump plug, so I have thoroughly cleaned the sump and about to replace it.
My theory is condensation over standing 3 years with new oil in the sump has made water mix with the oil, form a thick cream, this has surrounded the sump sieve gauze and created a dam, which has prevented further oil from being sucked up the feed tube to the pump.
All is now clean, new oil ready to put in, new filter, primed pump, and fingers crossed soon.
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It is all back together now, oil comes out of the oil pressure pipe take off union, but not at sufficient pressure to make it to the end of the 5ft long pipe to the gauge, and the gauge does not move with the spark plugs out when the engine is cranked over for 10-15 seconds.
I don't want to run the engine for more than 10 seconds with no recordable oil pressure.
I cannot understand why everything seems to be working correctly, but there is no apparent pressure being generated by a completely normal looking oil pump, which is primed, rotating on the starter, and cannot push the oil up the pressure gauge pipe.
How long would you run the engine for with no recordable pressure, just to see if the pressure builds up as the engine fires at say 2000 rpm? What am I missing here?
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Was the engine rebuilt immediately before you are attempting to get oil pressure?
Maybe an oil gallery pipe plug was left out.
Another idea is to get a pump to pump oil into the gauge port to pressurize the oil gallery.
I found the new oil pumps they sell have a hard time priming, probably due to greater rotor clearances.
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For the oil pressure gauge, does oil have to fill the pipe, or does the gauge measure OK with air in the last bit? If it has to be all oil, how do you purge the air?
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Maybe an oil gallery pipe plug was left out.
That thought had crossed my mind, but where would that plug be on the block?
I have 2 other engines out of cars, so if I had a clue where to look for those plugs on those ones, I would know where to start looking on the engine in the car.
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How long would you run the engine for with no recordable pressure, just to see if the pressure builds up as the engine fires at say 2000 rpm? What am I missing here?
Personally I wouldn't run it at all but the 10 seconds you mentioned sounds ok with no real load. If it jumps straight to idle at 1500-2000 then it should be at least at 40psi, mine hits half way on the dial once it fires.
As you say, pressure should build on cranking, or at least it does on mine if the filter is primed full with oil after an oil change. The Elan will show 20psi before it fires up, I'd expect a few seconds of turning over to do something similar with yours ?
Brian
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I had the sump off my Seven's crossflow all winter. When I put it all back together, I had a heck of a time getting oil pressure. I cranked it a lot. That included a new pump, packed with vasoline, etc. What I eventually did was get a large syringe and force oil backwards through the pump via the oil filter mount. I also forced oil into the engine through the centre. Got oil pressure then.
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My first plan is to run the engine 3 times for less than 10 seconds, with a long gap in between, to see if I can get any oil pressure.
My next plans are to check the oil pressure gauge with compressed air to see if it is working, and then to trace the oilways on another engine to see whether a grub screw is missing that is allowing the oil to go back into the sump rather than to be forced through the crank oilways, and up to the cylinder head to feed the cams.
The oil will take the least path of resistance, and if an oilway is open, there will be no back pressure, so the oil pump will show no pressure at the gauge take off union on the block.
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I think there is a plug behind the front cover. However, I assume your engine hasn't been just rebuilt, so it has probably run before in its current configuration. I have also had issues with the newer oil pumps like JB,. I ran it for a short amount of time less than 15 seconds at idle to get oil pressure, but I had put everything together with assembly lube.
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I know little of the internal design of a twin-cam but is there not a way to rotate the oil pump externally with an electric drill or by hand? I prelube all motors with a hand drill prior to start up.
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Not on a Lotus/Ford TC/crossflow. The oil pump is gear driven off the jack shaft/camshaft.
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Possibly a dumb question in light of you having tried two pumps but is it worth removing the plate and checking the side & face clearances on the lobes to see if they are within spec ?
I know new pumps should be perfect but maybe there's some manufacturing tolerances that are going adrift depending on how/where the parts are made, it wouldn't be the first time we've had new kit that doesn't meet older specs.
Brian
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Possibly a dumb question in light of you having tried two pumps but is it worth removing the plate and checking the side & face clearances on the lobes to see if they are within spec ?
Brian
What am I measuring? The pumps are Ford manufactured.
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Hmmm, how about temporarily replace the oil filter with a remote filter adapter and external pump to circulate oil through the non-running engine until all air is expelled?
Might make a difference?
And should show oil pressure at the gauge port unless that is blocked in some way.
If oil pressure can be obtained with the external pump that should provide a few clues.
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What am I measuring? The pumps are Ford manufactured.
It's certainly in the straw clutching category but given how there are tales of trunnions not fitting, ignition parts not working, etc, I thought it worth a look as there seems to be a real problem in getting this pump shoving oil about. I've only ever fitted 2 pumps and both have been fine, even the old ones haven't been bad but as this is proving troublesome.....
Brian
Edit to add, just realised there's no dimensions. I'll go and find them....
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Today, I tested the oil pressure gauge by squirting compressed air into the small hole, and it worked perfectly.
I cranked the engine with the spark plugs out 4 times for 10 seconds, not any movement of the needle on the gauge.
I started the engine for 3 seconds, 4 times, it revved at 2000 rpm, and no movement of the needle of the gauge.
I am now about to investigate the oilway from the pump to the oil pressure take off on a spare engine I have lying around, to see whether there is a grub screw covering the oilway behind the front plate close to the jackshaft locking plate.
I fear I will have to take the engine out and pull it apart to check every oilway is clear and closed off. I have run out of ideas.
I will check the tolerances on the oil pumps, but I cannot see how they can wear if they are totally surrounded by oil all the time.
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I don't think the new pumps you buy are made by Ford. The Lotus Elan site may have more info.
You do have a mystery for sure.
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Oil pump tolerances checked, and they are 2 thou, so well within limits.
Oilway checked on spare engine. It goes from the pump to the oil pressure take off point and is capped by an allen headed grub screw where the lay shaft plate holds the layshaft in place, just behind the chain sprocket.
Next task, see if I can see that part of the engine from the top with the cam cover removed to see if oil is leaking out of that oilway.
Local garage says the oil has to be going somewhere if it is not pressurising the pressure gauge take off.
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Maybe I missed it, but did you try another filter? These are from another Elan forum thread:
Ron
By any chance had you recently replaced the oil filter shortly before noticing the zero oil pressure condition? Did you replace the filter again when installing the new oil pump? Many years ago I installed what turned out to be a bad oil filter. All was fine for the first 20 or 30 miles and then I had zero oil pressure. I replaced the oil filter a second time and normal oil pressure returned immediately.
Russ Newton
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PostPost by: EEED » Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:43 pm
Russ,
Thanks for posting.Yes, I had just changed the oil and replaced the filter. No-one I contacted thought that the filter could (potentially) be the problem although I'm sure I explained that I had just changed the oil and filter.
At least if anyone has a similar problem and tries a search on the Forums they should find this - it could be a money-saver.
Paul
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PostPost by: oldchieft » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:24 pm
I recall one post at least about this.
lotus-twincam-f39/loss-oil-pressure-t30804.html#p206519
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PostPost by: ericbushby » Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:08 am
I also had zero oil pressure about 60 miles after changing the filter. The pressure gradually fell during about 2 miles of running.
After exhaustive investigation and finding no faults another filter was fitted. All was well then and it has been fine ever since. It is now due for another oil and filter change and I will be very careful where I buy the filter.
Eric in Burnley
1967 Series 3 DHC
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Since you tried two pumps, I presume the pressure regulator /bypass valve is in the block somewhere ? The valve could stick fully open and just circulating oil back to the sump?
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Oil pump tolerances checked, and they are 2 thou, so well within limits.
Well, at least now we know you've got a good pump and not something made in XXXa with no QC.
Curious - when you pulled the plate to check the rotors, was the pump full of oil or vaseline ? If oil then it's getting as far as the pump, the vaseline is now filling an oil way somewhere and so the hunt for the internal leak is the next step.
Brian
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Maybe I missed it, but did you try another filter? These are from another Elan forum thread:
Ron
Funny you should say that. I thought of exactly that this morning. I have tried 3 different brand new oil filters from 2 different manufacturers.
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Since you tried two pumps, I presume the pressure regulator /bypass valve is in the block somewhere ? The valve could stick fully open and just circulating oil back to the sump?
The pressure release valve is in the pump itself, and appears to be working correctly, spring loaded.
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If oil then it's getting as far as the pump, the vaseline is now filling an oil way somewhere and so the hunt for the internal leak is the next step.
Brian
When I checked the tolerance by taking the filter and three bolted plate off, I saw the Vaseline was on the underside of the filter holder, i.e. on the aluminium, just above the canister oil filter.
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My next thought is to swap the oil pump and filter attached with another oil pump and filter attached on another working Europa TC that I use regularly.
That way I can see if the pump and filter from the non working car works on the working car, and vice versa.
That will eliminate the oil and filter from the problem, and would lead me to deduce that the problem lies beyond the pump and filter, and beyond the oil pressure flange.
If the pump and filter from the working car does not work on the non-working car, I will have no option other than to take the engine out of the non-working car, and see what lies beyond the oil pressure take off flange.
Then, I propose the remove the water pump assembly, disconnect the timing chain, and attach an electric drill to the lay shaft to rotate the oil pump quickly with no other parts rotating so there is nothing that can seize through non lubrication except the lay shaft which will have no external pressure on its bearings. With oil in the sump, the oil pump being driven by an electric drill, I should be able to trace what is or is not happening, without damaging the engine moving parts.
As the local garage says, the oil must be going somewhere if the pump is circulating the oil through the filter.
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I am now treating this as a scientific challenge.
New oil pump, new oil filter, new oil, new oil pressure gauge pipe fitted.
No oil pressure on fast turn-over with the plugs out.
With the gauge pipe disconnected at the block, oil comes out from the block union in a steady stream.
Next in the experiment, disconnect oil pressure pipe from working car with good oil pressure, take out the plugs, and see how the oil stream out of the union compares with the non-working engine.
If both engines show the same sort of oil squirt, either the gauge is faulty, or there is a leak further down the oilways in the block beyond the union on the block, which is leaking oil.
I am thinking of a leaky hosepipe. If there is a leak in the pipe, the water would rather go out of the leak rather than the spray part restriction on the end of the hose. If the spray part (oil pressure gauge pipe) is removed, water will come out of the open hose (block union) rather than the leak in the pipe. Oil like water will find the path of least resistance, and if the oilway is leaking further down the oilway from the block union, it will come out of that leak rather than pressurise the gauge at the block union.
Well that is my theory. Please tell me where my logic is wrong.
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Your logic seems fine to me, but as none of us have managed to solve this one, perhaps having the same thoughts isn't a good thing !
The only thing that's crossed my mind is that when I say mine gets pressure on cranking I am using a 0/40 oil and not the original 20/50 which I know many folks prefer. That should make getting pressure easier and perhaps that's the reason I'm used to seeing the needle move. I don't know what viscosity you've got, but if you've not filled the sump yet and were going to use 20/50 then I would be tempted to put in a cheap 0/40 to see if the lower cold viscosity manages to get oil flowing around. You can always change it early if you're not happy with it, especially if it's cheap stuff.
When you remove the oil gauge feed, to follow the logic you've got 40psi oil taking the easiest route into fresh air so I would have expected a proper squirt, a few inches at least. The comparison with a known oil system that's working is a good idea. (is that why you've got so many Europas ? ;) )
Otherwise, as said before, I'm stumped. I've attached the lubrication system diagram as I don't think it's given in the later manuals and that shows the oil flow around the engine, high & low pressure feeds and returns.
To get no pressure at all when the pump is known to be good and you've changed oil/filter/pump gives me a list of either an air leak on the suction side between the gauze & pump inlet so the pump lobes never fill properly, a blocked filter (but you've changed them) or a massive leak somewhere in the block, almost like a missing shell or thrust washer.
I missed the start of this saga so I'll just ask if you've ever had this engine running with good oil pressure or is it the first start up since you bought it ? The comments in an earlier post about mayonnaise in the sump make me think it's not a fresh rebuild ?
Brian
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What I know about TC oil pumps could be scratched on the back of an aspirin with a crowbar, however...
Did you end up swapping the oil pump to the working engine?
Is it possible to remove the outer oil pump gear, replace the plate and jury rig a force feed of oil into the block via the orifice where the pick-ip pipe locates?
I'm thinking if it doesn't hold pressure, then there's an escape route not accounted for thus far.
And something that might be unrelated but the Lotus 907/912 engines sometimes display an issue of not sucking oil from the sump because the plastic olive that seals the pick-ip pipe into the block can leak and the factory says it should be replaced with a new item each time.
And yes, Brian's comment about mayonnaise also has me wondering
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Your logic seems fine to me, but as none of us have managed to solve this one, perhaps having the same thoughts isn't a good thing !
The only thing that's crossed my mind is that when I say mine gets pressure on cranking I am using a 0/40 oil and not the original 20/50 which I know many folks prefer. That should make getting pressure easier and perhaps that's the reason I'm used to seeing the needle move. I don't know what viscosity you've got, but if you've not filled the sump yet and were going to use 20/50 then I would be tempted to put in a cheap 0/40 to see if the lower cold viscosity manages to get oil flowing around. You can always change it early if you're not happy with it, especially if it's cheap stuff.
When you remove the oil gauge feed, to follow the logic you've got 40psi oil taking the easiest route into fresh air so I would have expected a proper squirt, a few inches at least. The comparison with a known oil system that's working is a good idea. (is that why you've got so many Europas ? ;) )
Otherwise, as said before, I'm stumped. I've attached the lubrication system diagram as I don't think it's given in the later manuals and that shows the oil flow around the engine, high & low pressure feeds and returns.
To get no pressure at all when the pump is known to be good and you've changed oil/filter/pump gives me a list of either an air leak on the suction side between the gauze & pump inlet so the pump lobes never fill properly, a blocked filter (but you've changed them) or a massive leak somewhere in the block, almost like a missing shell or thrust washer.
I missed the start of this saga so I'll just ask if you've ever had this engine running with good oil pressure or is it the first start up since you bought it ? The comments in an earlier post about mayonnaise in the sump make me think it's not a fresh rebuild ?
Brian
I have never had this engine running. I rebuilt it several years ago and it has been sitting unused for ages. I think this lead to condensation water getting into the oil and forming the gooey creamy stuff that was around the gauze filter on the suction pipe.
Today I will take the plugs out of a working car and crank it over to see what oil pressure it records after 10 seconds cranking. Then I will attach to oil pressure gauge from the non working car and crank the working car over again to see what pressure reading I get.
This will determine what I can achieve on cranking if all is working well, and whether the pressure gauge on the non-working car is reading correctly at low pressures.
I am using Halfords classic car oil in all my engines.
Before I fitted a brand new pump and filter to the non-working car, I took the pump and filter off the working car and it did not work on the non working car. I returned the pump and filter to the working car and got oil pressure straight away. Then I fitted the new pump and filter to the non-working car and got nothing.
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Did you end up swapping the oil pump to the working engine?
Yes, the old oil pump did not work in the working car even when the engine was running for a few seconds, but maybe I did not fully prime that pump. When replacing the working pump in the working car, and priming the pump and filter carefully, all worked straight away with plenty of pressure.
Is it possible to remove the outer oil pump gear, replace the plate and jury rig a force feed of oil into the block via the orifice where the pick-ip pipe locates?
No.
And something that might be unrelated but the Lotus 907/912 engines sometimes display an issue of not sucking oil from the sump because the plastic olive that seals the pick-ip pipe into the block can leak and the factory says it should be replaced with a new item each time.
The pick up pipe is pressed into the block a long way, so there is no possibility of an air leak on the suction side from the sump to the pump.
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I've attached the lubrication system diagram as I don't think it's given in the later manuals and that shows the oil flow around the engine, high & low pressure feeds and returns.
Thanks very much for that.
If I end up taking the engine out to do open heart surgery, I will have to see what is going on around the short oil gallery 16, and from 3 onwards.
With the water pump off the front, and with a full sump and the pump and filter in place, I will be able to disconnect the chain on the layshaft and turn over the layshaft quickly to generate pressure, and look into the sump to see if oil is leaking badly from the block into the sump.
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Comparative gauges test completed.
Working oil pressure gauge in working car, 40 psi on 10 second turnover with the plugs out.
Non working car oil pressure gauge in working car, 30 psi on 10 second turnover with the plugs out.
So I know the non working car oil pressure gauge reads low oil pressure, and the non working engine should be producing at least 30 psi on fast turnover.
Time to compose myself for open heart surgery unless anyone can suggest an alternative.
As a separate problem, how do twin cam owners stop rainwater filling the head around the 1st and 2nd cylinder spark plugs? I put a sheet of vinyl over the whole head, with a reminder to remove on the drivers seat before starting the engine and getting the vinyl into the alternator drive belt mechanism.
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Before I fitted a brand new pump and filter to the non-working car, I took the pump and filter off the working car and it did not work on the non working car. I returned the pump and filter to the working car and got oil pressure straight away. Then I fitted the new pump and filter to the non-working car and got nothing.
That's ominous and makes me think there's something adrift with the engine itself.
Personally when I rebuilt the Elan engine I didn't remove any oil gallery plugs but I'd expect to find at least one on the short gallery, you'll probably need the front cover backing plate off to see that ?
After that my call would be bearings because I don't think there's anything you can do with the feeds to the cams, etc, so I'd be looking for a leak and I expect you're of similar mind. If there was a blockage in any of the pressure feeds then you'd see that on the gauge, it would register excellent pressure even if the bearings weren't seeing any.
Pulling the engine seems drastic but at the moment I can't think of anything else. I would be tempted to try it once more with thinner oil, even a 0-30, to see if you get any response at all. That isn't such a wild move, originally these engines were on winter/summer oils and SAE30 was on the spec sheets.
Brian
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Eureka.
4 hours to take the engine out and take the water pump cover off the front of the engine.
As I suspected, the grub screw blanking the oilway just past the oil pressure flange, where the sprocket for the layshaft is located, was missing, so oil was going straight back into the sump rather than up the oilways in the block.
Quite who took out that grub screw, when, and why, I have no idea.
I must have built this engine over 3 years ago, and if I had taken it out, I would have seen a grub screw lying about when the engine was built. It could have been me or the PO, but hopefully this is all that is wrong, and I have caused no damage running the engine for about 3 x 8 second bursts, with a long gap in between.
It will take me a while to clean it all up and screw it back together again and time the distributor, but it started very easily this morning before I took it out, so I should know fairly soon if it runs properly without any damage to any bearings.
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Well done. It’s always good to have a definite answer to a mystery problem.
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It seems that the grub screw is 1/2" Whitworth thread, the same as the gearbox sump plug.
I have to buy a pack of 5 for £5.15.
Cheap fix.
Quite where the original went and when is a complete mystery.
Looking through my box of strange Lotus bits, there is a grub screw, but it is bigger and the wrong thread, so I have no idea where the original is. It is too big to be not noticed if I had taken it out to check an oilway. I did this on another block which was lying around in Louisiana and mud wasps had bunged up holes in everything everywhere so I was checking the oilways, but not on this engine.
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Is that the only oil gallery that requires a plug? One missing plug may mean another’s could have been overlooked?
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Is that the only oil gallery that requires a plug? One missing plug may mean another’s could have been overlooked?
Unless I looked at a bare block closely, I do not know if there are any other oilway plugs. They would have to be visible from underneath, as there is nothing at the top where the cylinder head attaches, and nothing at the flywheel end that I can see.
If anyone has a bare Ford block handy, are there any other oilways plugged other than where the jackshaft sprocket is just past the oil pressure union take off?
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Great news !
No matter where the cause of the missing plug lies, it's fixed now and you can get it back in the car & running.
Brian
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Having a quick look at the inter web showed me this
https://www.burtonpower.com/oil-gallery-plug-1-8-bspt-x-1-4-fp503.html
…..there is a line that says one required…. But that the size might be different…..well that’s my reading of it at first glance
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I would be surprised if it were Whitworth thread. I would think it is more likely NPT and if not that, BSP.
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I would be surprised if it were Whitworth thread. I would think it is more likely NPT and if not that, BSP.
What thread is the gearbox fill plug?
I have a fill plug that screws into the oilway hole easily, so it is the same thread.
Whitworth (1803-1887), also known as British Standard Pipe (BSP) or British Standard Pipe Taper (BSPT), were originally thread forms for pipe fittings. They are still used for pipe installations in Europe today. They are therefore also known as pipe threads.
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Interesting. I had never measured a tranny fill plug and had assumed that it is some metric equivalent to NPT being a tapered thread and all. So I checked the thread with my thread gauges. The one that fit the best, but not perfectly, was 20 threads per inch. The 18 TPI gauge also "fit" but not as good. No metric threads fit at all. Maybe something like 1/4" NPT or 3/8" NPT was 20 TPI. Nope, 1/4" NTP and 3/8" NPT have a thread pitch of 18 TPI. I found the specification of JIS and BSPT (both tapered) thread (https://trimantec.com/blogs/t/thread-identification-guide#NPT-Chart) and the 3/8 (-6) size has a thread pitch of 19 TPI. (This is curious to me because I usually associate a dash number designation as an AN designation but clearly that isn't the case here.) The specified diameter for 3/8 BSPT OR JIS is 0.65". Measuring the diameter of a taper is obviously problematic but my plug does measure about 0.65". I don't have a 19TPI thread gauge so I can't verify that it has the correct thread pitch.
So it appears to me that my NG3 (and I assume all Renault trannies likely to be found on a Europa) are likely 3/8 JIS or BSPT. Are there enough weasle words in there for you?
I'm not as familiar with BSPT as I am with NPT or even BSP (which I just found out is also called BSPP) is a straight thread) so I can't say if it is likely that your block is tapped for it but it seems logical.
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The oilway plug by the jackshaft sprocket is exactly the same thread as the short union for the oil pressure gauge which screws into the block very close on the same oilway from the pump.
I have bought a G1 1/2" - 11 BSP and a G 1/2-14 BSP pressure pipe plug allen socket screws off eBay and I am hoping one of those two is the correct thread.
Oh dear, on further research, it seems I need a 1/4" BSP grub screw which is 13.16mm in diameter and 19 turns per inch.
Soon I will have a whole collection of strange sized grub screws, and hopefully, 1 of those will fit.
I was wondering why QED specialist Lotus engine company had 1/4" grub screws on its cylinder block components list. Now I know why.
https://qedmotorsport.co.uk/product/block-oil-way-bung-1-4/
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By now you probably have a complete selection of plugs that have any chance of fitting but it just occurred to me that maybe the easiest way to find out the correct size is to make a call Burton Power or Barum Engines (I see them on YouTube) or QED (certainly they mean 1/4 NPT).
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By now you probably have a complete selection of plugs that have any chance of fitting but it just occurred to me that maybe the easiest way to find out the correct size is to make a call Burton Power or Barum Engines (I see them on YouTube) or QED (certainly they mean 1/4 NPT).
I will be phoning QED tomorrow to order 2 x 1/4" grub screws. At their price, the postage will be more.
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Is that the only oil gallery that requires a plug? One missing plug may mean another’s could have been overlooked?
I now have plenty of oil pressure. A missing oil gallery grub screw was all that was wrong.
There is another grub screw blanking off an oil gallery, but that plug is on the exhaust manifold side of the block, and both easy to see and easy to access with the engine in situ.
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Excellent. :beerchug:
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great news, another one to file away in the "how on earth did that happen ?" category !
After skipping back through this thread at all the options we've suggested, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it ?
Brian
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I have come to the conclusion that the PO put the engine back together again in a hurry just to sell the car.
The Allen key needed to undo the grub screw is 1/4", and I had to buy a 1/4" key as I did not have one that fitted, so I am fairly confident that I did not remove that grub screw.
At least the answer was not expensive, just time consuming. When the engine was out, I found the clutch plate had stuck itself to the flywheel, the screw holding the speedo cable into the gearbox was not long enough to grip it so I fitted a longer one, and it gave me a chance to clean things that had corroded, so all of the time removing and refitting the gearbox and engine was not lost.
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After skipping back through this thread at all the options we've suggested, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it ?
Sure is.
It also highlights the process of elimination so essential to the diagnosis.
Great news indeed.